Question: valor+initiate

[Desteplo]

Valor bard and taking lvl4 magic initiate for green flame or booming cantrip? Plus another cantrip
-since magical secrets isn't until 10
-or spell sniper and use one of those with a whip

[JBPuffin]

VHuman for Level 1; Level 4 seems rather late to put this online, but if you're willing to skip the 1st ASI for it then it's not the worst thing you can do with it. Spell Sniper and a whip...Whip for reach+finesse weapon, Spell Sniper to extend the range as an RAW workaround in combo with the reach to make it 20 feetish? As a DM I probably wouldn't be okay with it, but it certainly sounds fun.

Lemme know if I got any reasoning wrong - RAW manipulation isn't my strong suit - and it's certainly something to think about...

[Saiga]

Alternatively you can pick up Booming Blade by being a Half-Elf of High Elf descent (SCAG variant). You can also pick up BFG this way but it'd work off intellect which is not as potent.

[EvilAnagram]

It works pretty well in practice. The Valor bard I DM for moved away from it after he got his second attack, but he still gets use out of it.

[Specter]

I could see this working for a Lore Bard, not a Valor one. You will eventually get Extra Attack, and those cantrips are not cumulative with extra attacks. They could help you on your way to level 6, but after that you should barely be using them.

[EvilAnagram]

I could see this working for a Lore Bard, not a Valor one. You will eventually get Extra Attack, and those cantrips are not cumulative with extra attacks. They could help you on your way to level 6, but after that you should barely be using them.
Counterpoint: at level 11 the cantrip is superior in damage to the extra attack against lower ACs, and at 14th level the Bard can attack as a bonus action after casting a spell. There are only 6 levels in which the extra attack is better than the cantrip.

[RSP]

VHuman for Level 1; Level 4 seems rather late to put this online, but if you're willing to skip the 1st ASI for it then it's not the worst thing you can do with it. Spell Sniper and a whip...Whip for reach+finesse weapon, Spell Sniper to extend the range as an RAW workaround in combo with the reach to make it 20 feetish? As a DM I probably wouldn't be okay with it, but it certainly sounds fun.

Lemme know if I got any reasoning wrong - RAW manipulation isn't my strong suit - and it's certainly something to think about...

Spell Sniper would increase the range of BB or GFB to 10', not 20', thereby working for the whip's natural reach. RAW, neither works at reach as the target must be within 5' of the caster.


I could see this working for a Lore Bard, not a Valor one. You will eventually get Extra Attack, and those cantrips are not cumulative with extra attacks. They could help you on your way to level 6, but after that you should barely be using them.

I'd imagine it would have niche use at level 6, but wouldn't it come back online at 14 when the Valor Bard can attack and cast together? Just pointing it out as a possibility if OP knows the campaign is progressing to that level.

If acquired thru Magic Initiate, I'd imagine you could get Eldritch Blast as well as Hex or something to make it a more worthwhile investment for the 6-13 levels.

[Citan]

VHuman for Level 1; Level 4 seems rather late to put this online, but if you're willing to skip the 1st ASI for it then it's not the worst thing you can do with it. Spell Sniper and a whip...Whip for reach+finesse weapon, Spell Sniper to extend the range as an RAW workaround in combo with the reach to make it 20 feetish? As a DM I probably wouldn't be okay with it, but it certainly sounds fun.

Lemme know if I got any reasoning wrong - RAW manipulation isn't my strong suit - and it's certainly something to think about...
Quite on the contrary I'd say, there is really no utility to take them before level 5 since the difference with a plain weapon attack will be small. I mean, it would be decent for the level, but not enough imo to justify being a Variant Human instead of a Half-Elf (better starting stats, darkvision, skill).


Valor bard and taking lvl4 magic initiate for green flame or booming cantrip? Plus another cantrip
-since magical secrets isn't until 10
-or spell sniper and use one of those with a whip
Depends if you are interested in some spells.
Shield (Sorcerer - for 1/day emergency defense), Hex (Warlock -for some social interactions), Longstrider (Druid - always useful), Bless (Cleric - if you want 1/day buff for friends), Find Familiar (Wizard - because useful in many ways) could all compel you to take a Magic Initiate feat. There are also other great cantrips to take in utility and ranged attacks. So...

1) If none of those spells or alternative cantrips interest youtake Spell Sniper with GreenFlame Blade. it gives you a "mini-AOE" with 10 feet range making it easier for you to stay in safety. And it will affect any spell you could learn later that require an attack roll.
2) In the other case, take Magic Initiate.

With that said, why are you so eager on grabbing those two spells? Extra Attack at 6 will make you decent enough in terms of weapon attacks, and Magic Initiate / Spell Sniper could instead give you some greatd ranged attack cantrips to deal damage while still closing in.

In that regard, I'd suggest you a Magic Initiate:Warlock feat with Booming Blade and Eldricht Blast as a good compromise: when you want to attack several enemies, keep even just 10 feet distance for Eldricht Blast. When you want to be really tormenting a single target, close in for Booming Blade.
Bonus point for having Hex which you could use in social interactions (Charisma for Persuasion), for stealth (Wisdom for Perception), secrets (Intelligence for Investigation) or fight (Strength/Dexterity to weaken Grapple/Shove defense).

[JAL_1138]

Note that Valor's level 14 feature, Battle Magic, won't work with racial cantrips, or spells and cantrips gained from feats; it only works with Bard spells. Magical Secrets count as Bard spells, but racials and feat spells don't.

[RSP]

Note that Valor's level 14 feature, Battle Magic, won't work with racial cantrips, or spells and cantrips gained from feats; it only works with Bard spells. Magical Secrets count as Bard spells, but racials and feat spells don't.

Nice catch. Thanks for pointing that out.

[JAL_1138]

Nice catch. Thanks for pointing that out.

Ran into that when I was building a Paladin 2/ Valor X with PAM+Warcaster+Spell Sniper for a higher-level game. I ended up skipping Greenflame Blade altogether, taking Booming Blade as a Magical Secret, and Eldritch Blast from Spell Sniper to give the character a sorta-decent ranged option when Vicious Mockery wasn't cutting it.

[Saiga]

Note that Valor's level 14 feature, Battle Magic, won't work with racial cantrips, or spells and cantrips gained from feats; it only works with Bard spells. Magical Secrets count as Bard spells, but racials and feat spells don't.

Ooh, that really weakens my half-elf idea. Thanks for pointing that out so I don't make that mistake.

Although Booming Blade with Warcaster always stays good, I guess you don't necessarily need it to work with Battle Magic to get use out of it.

[JAL_1138]

Ooh, that really weakens my half-elf idea. Thanks for pointing that out so I don't make that mistake.

Although Booming Blade with Warcaster always stays good, I guess you don't necessarily need it to work with Battle Magic to get use out of it.

You could take one of them with Spell Sniper/Magic Initiate/racial cantrip and use it when the situation calls for (and to tide you over until Bard 10, although Extra Attack goes a fair ways toward that), and take the other with Magical Secrets to use with Battle Magic for cantrip+attack.

What I did on my Palabard was keep Spirit Guardians up consistently, and PAM anything that approached me with Booming Blade through Warcaster. Spirit Guardians basically makes the area of effect difficult terrain, as well as doing solid damage, and then anything approaching me got hit with Booming Blade. It could then either stand still and take Spirit Guardians damage or move and take Booming Blade damage--hurts whether they stay or leave, no way to avoid it easily. Made me really annoying against melee enemies, but I was a bit rubbish at range.

[Drackolus]

Booming blade will only be better at level 5 (since the die increases but you don't have extra attack) and 11+ (since the die increase makes up for the difference). Warcaster+booming blade is very potent, though having a larger reach makes it easier for the enemies to maneuver around you (a creature can move to 10' instead since it's not out of your reach). Warcaster is also very powerful on a bard, especially a valor bard. The warcaster+booming blade combo also works on an enemy you hit with dissonant whispers, at the cost of your reaction for the round.

[Desteplo]

Booming blade will only be better at level 5 (since the die increases but you don't have extra attack) and 11+ (since the die increase makes up for the difference). Warcaster+booming blade is very potent, though having a larger reach makes it easier for the enemies to maneuver around you (a creature can move to 10' instead since it's not out of your reach). Warcaster is also very powerful on a bard, especially a valor bard. The warcaster+booming blade combo also works on an enemy you hit with dissonant whispers, at the cost of your reaction for the round.

So waiting for Magical secrets is better before booming blade
-warcaster+spell sniper doesn't combo well
-lvl14 doesn't work unless they're bard spells

[Drackolus]

So waiting for Magical secrets is better before booming blade
-warcaster+spell sniper doesn't combo well
-lvl14 doesn't work unless they're bard spells

That about sums it up.
Warcaster+spellsniper isn't always weaker. Having a larger "zone of control" lets you affect more creatures, but you only have one reaction anyway. You could also hold two weapons - one with and one without range. You only lose the modifier of damage if you specifically use the two-weapon fighting bonus action. Does not matter what hand each weapon is in.
One could argue that "your reach" is 10 still, but since reach is determined by weapon, I would argue against that. You can't use your shortsword to stab someone at 10 even if your other hand holds a whip.

If you wanted everything to fit nicely, with the whip mechanic, you would need to get warcaster and spellsniper and get booming blade with your magical secrets. Just pick up eldritch blast, which only is good with your BA attack if you are using a ranged weapon anyway.

[Desteplo]

That about sums it up.
Warcaster+spellsniper isn't always weaker. Having a larger "zone of control" lets you affect more creatures, but you only have one reaction anyway. You could also hold two weapons - one with and one without range. You only lose the modifier of damage if you specifically use the two-weapon fighting bonus action. Does not matter what hand each weapon is in.
One could argue that "your reach" is 10 still, but since reach is determined by weapon, I would argue against that. You can't use your shortsword to stab someone at 10 even if your other hand holds a whip.

If you wanted everything to fit nicely, with the whip mechanic, you would need to get warcaster and spellsniper and get booming blade with your magical secrets. Just pick up eldritch blast, which only is good with your BA attack if you are using a ranged weapon anyway.

I was thinking the same thing before I checked. Thank you for the confirmation

[Vaz]

VHuman for Level 1; Level 4 seems rather late to put this online, but if you're willing to skip the 1st ASI for it then it's not the worst thing you can do with it. Spell Sniper and a whip...Whip for reach+finesse weapon, Spell Sniper to extend the range as an RAW workaround in combo with the reach to make it 20 feetish? As a DM I probably wouldn't be okay with it, but it certainly sounds fun.

Lemme know if I got any reasoning wrong - RAW manipulation isn't my strong suit - and it's certainly something to think about...
SpellSniper is 10ft max only. The spells range is 5ft, not your weapon's reach.

Edit; should probably scroll more