Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Cheesegear]

Warhammer 40,000 in the Playground

I'm new to the hobby. Which army should I start?
It really depends on what you want to play. And how your meta-game shapes up. Find out what everyone else is playing near you, and play anything not those armies for best results. Otherwise, if you're starting from scratch with no-one really to play with - or, you've got a friend who is also starting from scratch - buy the Dark Vengeance starter box.

What's Dark Vengeance?
Dark Vengeance contains a rulebook and a bunch of dice.

It contains roughly 850 Points worth of Dark Angels. However, it only contains around 500 points worth of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, if you're playing DV as it's meant to be played, you're never using all of the models at once so the points difference doesn't really matter.

However, in practical terms, the Dark Angels are only barely legal and lack enough Scoring models. And, while the CSMs are legal, they're almost 300 points behind and lack anything that packs a decent punch. You will also need the relevant Codecies for your faction as it will dramatically change the way you play the game as opposed to using the reference sheets that come with DV.

How much does it cost?
The Dark Vengeance box, one Codex, one other box of your choosing, and a Starter Paint Set costs you about the same as a Playstation 3 and one game*. In both cases, you'd be good to go for about a month. This author thinks of most boxes as console games, and Flyers and Land Raiders are the AAA-Title Collector's Edition game. The difference being that in this hobby you can use all your 'games' at the same time, and continuously.

Is WH40K expensive? Yes. I suppose it is. We all know it is. But, practically speaking, it's no more expensive than any other hobby.

*Priced in $AU where everything is more expensive - although the ratios should be the same.

Okay, I've got everything. What next?
Play some games. Playing some actual games, is a far, far better learning experience than anything you could glean from the internet. Although we really would appreciate some stories and how you're finding your army.
Find out what works for you, find out what doesn't (just because the internet likes something, doesn't mean you will too). You, more than anyone know who your opponents are and what they're putting on the table. You are in the best position to find out what you need to bring to the table.

However, if you're still stuck. Just ask.

How many points do I need? What size board do I need?
There are ways that you can play 200, 400 and 500 point games using altered rules. But, if you want to play the game as-is, the recommended minimum is 750.

The game 'balances out' at 1500. Most games should be played at this level since pretty much all armies get a fair shake.

However, in other meta-games, find out what the local tournament standard is. Most people in your area should be playing at that points level. While you're at it, here's How to write an army list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8702512&postcount=1358)

As for board size; a 4x4' table can accommodate up to 1250 with reasonable room left for movement. But, after that you should probably look at finding a 6x4' area. The floor is never a bad start.

I did what you said and I still lost. What gives? :smallfurious:
First, this game is all about dice. Dice are random (most of the time anyway), sometimes you just get bad rolls all game and there's nothing you can really do about it. It's best to accept it, otherwise you're not going to have a very fun time.

Sometimes your opponent can make a minor change in his list - like changing from Plasma Cannons to Lascannons. That can totally alter the flow of the game and what happens when they next play you.

Sometimes the terrain placement is just bad (or the terrain itself is bad) and right from Deployment you can find yourself getting shot at and there's nothing you can do about it. Really, this can only stress how important terrain can be to how the game gets played.

And, lastly, maybe you just 'did it wrong'? Maybe you used [X] to shoot [Y] when they should have been shooting [Z]. Maybe you Charged, when the better move could have been moving backwards and Rapid Firing instead? There are all sorts of ways you can be out-played. You didn't just lose because your opponents' Queens are overpowered.

Terrain? You said this hobby was only as expensive as any other.
Yes and no. Most of your 'starting' terrain can be household items. Books. Soda-cans. Small boxes. Whatever.

If you look around the internet, you can also find a few tutorials on how to make some really decent-looking terrain. Made out of what you essentially would have otherwise thrown in the bin.

Only GW Terrain actually costs you any significant money. Making your own should only cost a few dollars tops - and your time and effort.

How much terrain do I need?
Up to 12 pieces is the official word. However, that can get crowded pretty fast if you've got big pieces.

A better guide is roughly anywhere between 25-33% of the board should be covered by terrain. On a standard 6x4' table, you would want anywhere between 6-8' square of terrain. It seems like a lot. But if you divide that up to 7-12 pieces, it doesn't look like much. Or you could just put a 2x3' block in the centre of the board. :smallsigh:

I don't like using Special Characters, and I think Allies are dumb.
Your opponents probably don't. Special Characters are pretty powerful and there's no real reason that you shouldn't be using them if your opponents are. That's not to say that all Special Characters are good - they aren't - and certainly don't get the impression that just because it's a Special Character that you need to use it - you don't. But some of them are still good and they do make certain armies a lot better.

However, Allies, on the other hand. Are often a required part of the game. Some armies just don't have the units required to fend off other units. Does this make the game unfair? Kind of. But, GW doesn't update their entire range at once (it's a big range), and so some units are always going to be better than others. But, allowing Allies is a big step to evening the playing field.

So which Allies should I pick?
Depends on your army, and what units you already have. Ask in the thread.

I can't paint.
Like any skill worth having, you get better if you practice. 90% of a good paint job is just brush control - how much paint you put on your brush and where you put it. The other 10% is just colour theory (yeah, it's a thing). The most important tool this author has is a $5 Colour Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20355942&postcount=1425). :smallwink:

But, on a more serious note, the only real reason that you need to paint is if you want to participate in tournaments. Well, that and painted models just look better - if you've practised, of course.

Unfortunately, painting is a practical skill, not knowledge. The only person who can get you better at painting is you. Wraith has put together how you can go about Painting your army without losing your mind. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8722344&postcount=1421)

Is there such a thing as a 'Bad' Codex?
Yes. But, every Codex should be usable between 1000-1500 points. So, no matter what army you pick, you'll be okay within those points limits, or, you should be. If you find that your Codex/Army isn't doing well against certain opponents, and there's nothing you can do; You may need Allies. Most importantly, however, is if you need to know what works and what doesn't, check out one of the linked Guides below, or post your question in the thread!

Helpful Army Building Guides
Index: Imperium I
Deathwatch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22202022&postcount=1391)
Grey Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22206267&postcount=1424)

Building on a Budget
TBD.

30K/Heresy Guides
30K Relics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18500576&postcount=1350) by Vaz
Solar Auxilia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471119&postcount=1234) by Vaz
Taghmata Omnissiah Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18522411&postcount=1421) by Vaz
Questoris Knights (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18471124&postcount=1235) by Vaz

30K/Legion Rules
Legion Crusade Army List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17232158&postcount=1308)
Legion Special Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17243267&postcount=1322)
The Primarchs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17250802&postcount=1330)

Previous Threads
* Warhammer 40K Tactics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29297)
* II: Tactics for the Tactics God (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101608)
* III: Hats for the Hat Throne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119333)
* IV: The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133984)
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141538)
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149084)
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156779)
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165820)
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175990)
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184538)
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193025)
* XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199750)
* XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208838)
* XIV: "Pray for 6s!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221858)
* XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232277)
* XV: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248423)
* XVII: "Tyranids Don't Have Friends." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265917)
* XVIII: "Fortune Favours the Careless!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282842)
* XIX: Understand the Gravity of the Situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303801-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XIX-quot-Understand-the-gravity-of-the-situation-quot)
* XX: Barrage is the new Precision Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?341687-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XX-quot-Barrage-is-the-new-Precision-Shot-quot)
* XXI: Preferred Enemy (Dice) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?359820-Warhammer-40k-Tabletop-XXI-Preferred-Enemy-(Dice))
* XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388399-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXII-I-C-Tan-Has-Cheese#post18535364)
* XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411374-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIII-I-Do-Not-Like-Green-Tides-and-Hann)
* XXIV: ...And They Shall Know No Fluff. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444969-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIV-And-They-Shall-Know-No-Fluff&p=19863366&viewfull=1#post19863366)
* XXV: Friends Are Better Than Wraithknights
* XXVI: Frequently Asked, Frequently Ignored (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476885-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXV-Friends-Are-Better-Than-Wraithknights)
* XXVII: Tyranids Finally Found a Friend (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503224-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVII-Tyranids-Finally-Found-A-Friend)
* XXVIII: Drasius Can't Have Nice Things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509492-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXVIII-Drasius-Can-t-Have-Nice-Things)
* XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517336-Warhammer-40K-Tabletop-XXIX-Ro-Ro-Ro-Your-Boute)

Here's a bunch of Battle Reports (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18936242&postcount=1125) for you to read. Plenty of army lists in there.

[Blackhawk748]

So, i believe we were talking about Numarines being really really tall?

[Brookshw]

So, i believe we were talking about Numarines being really really tall?

I'm wondering how big the terminators & dreads will be, or if they'll do something else entirely.

[lord_khaine]

I'm wondering how big the terminators & dreads will be, or if they'll do something else entirely.

They should not have any dreads. Those are veteran heroes given a living burial in a walking coffin. But being all ned soldiers, the NewMarines dont have any veteral heroes to stuff into a dread.

[Trekkin]

They should not have any dreads. Those are veteran heroes given a living burial in a walking coffin. But being all ned soldiers, the NewMarines dont have any veteral heroes to stuff into a dread.

Which would lead me to expect some kind of Primaris Dreadknight, or some new model of Dreadnought that's a foot taller than normal Dreads and filled with veteran Space Marines from other chapters to serve as advisors.

Similarly, I expect jacked-up Predator tanks covered in gold filigree and gribbly bits. Anything to get Marine players to buy a whole new army one unit at a time.

There's probably a joke somewhere about Primaris Marines being head and pauldrons above normal Marines, but I don't want to go back through all the ad copy to see if GW has made it and I dread the day they do.

[lord_khaine]

Which would lead me to expect some kind of Primaris Dreadknight, or some new model of Dreadnought that's a foot taller than normal Dreads and filled with veteran Space Marines from other chapters to serve as advisors.

Im imagening a Voltron style dreadnough now, made from Space Wolf, Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Ultramarine and Dark Angel dreadnoughs :smalltongue:

[Trekkin]

Im imagening a Voltron style dreadnough now, made from Space Wolf, Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Ultramarine and Dark Angel dreadnoughs :smalltongue:

Good grief, that would be how to make a Space Marine Titan, wouldn't it? Take a normal Titan and swap the princeps and moderati for Dreadnought sarcophagi.

...which, continuing from the Dreadnoughts-are-grumpy-old-guys meme, would make them the equivalent of Statler and Waldorf with mega-bolters, I guess?

[DataNinja]

Im imagening a Voltron style dreadnough now, made from Space Wolf, Ultramarine, Blood Angel, Ultramarine and Dark Angel dreadnoughs :smalltongue:

That's reminding me of this picture someone shared with me on Facebook awhile ago. :smallbiggrin:
(Also, was Ultramarine meant to be twice? I know they insist on top billing and all...)

https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/8/82/Doomtitancopy.jpg/250px-Doomtitancopy.jpg

[Drasius]

They should not have any dreads. Those are veteran heroes given a living burial in a walking coffin. But being all ned soldiers, the NewMarines dont have any veteral heroes to stuff into a dread.

And yet they're getting a primaris dreadnaught since it's already been announced. Since "regular" marines can be upgraded into primaris marines, it's possible that one of the heros got upgraded and then ate a krak missile because someone else was using the shield eternal that day and had to be stuffed into a new dreadnaught. Or because something went wrong during the upgrade process and they had to expand the dreadnaught chassis since the new marines just don't fit, even with their limbs chopped off. Or maybe they just inject a regular box dread with their captain imperium syrum and it magically works on him too?

[Brookshw]

They should not have any dreads. Those are veteran heroes given a living burial in a walking coffin. But being all ned soldiers, the NewMarines dont have any veteral heroes to stuff into a dread.

Lore be damned, if GW thinks it'll make money then it'll happen! Similarly, upsized terminators shouldn't be a thing......but you know they will (or maybe primaris centurions).

[Blackhawk748]

Cuz as we know, marines needed more stuff. Not like the Ork line has several ancient models in need of updating *cough*warbuggy*cough*Deffkopta*cough*

[Haruspex_Pariah]

The FAQ released on the 15th did mention a "Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought", in a poorly veiled attempt to get people hyped over the Primaris Marines.

I was gonna ponder the fluff implications thereof but then remembered the tangent that happened in the previous thread.

Rules and army comp wise I have absolutely no clue how they're going to differentiate them from the regular Dreads. We already have venerable dreads, siege dreads, chaplain dreads, death company dreads, psychic dreads, gun platform dreads, 30k dreads that explode, dreads even bigger than those, etc.

"Redemptor" might be an adjective tacked onto an existing model, or maybe a new pattern entirely.

[boomwolf]

Yea, we get it, marines are the "main army"
But seriusly, they have way too much stuff compared to others.
Chaos, tau and nids - the factions that actually invent new stuff on a regular basis, has about as much as marines only once you combine them.

[Trekkin]

Yea, we get it, marines are the "main army"
But seriusly, they have way too much stuff compared to others.
Chaos, tau and nids - the factions that actually invent new stuff on a regular basis, has about as much as marines only once you combine them.

Not to mention how easy it would be to give Chaos the same stuff the Marines have; just change the rules and mandate that they be spikey and old.

Orks? Orks can loot anything. Just bash on some more armor and debris and Grots and drop the BS to 2 in the process.

It would be so easy to make more people get excited about the new models than just Marine players, and they'd sell more of the same models in the process -- and at least partially ameliorate the complaints about how much of an advantage it is for the Marines to get all the new toys and be first in line to take advantage of every new rule.

I never did understand why they got rid of Looted Vehicles except in order to shower their preferred players with more exclusive goodies.

[Wraith]

I never did understand why they got rid of Looted Vehicles except in order to shower their preferred players with more exclusive goodies.

Mostly it was to prevent conversions using 3rd-party miniatures. The amount of kit bashing that could be done and still make it look 'Orky' mean that some dumbasses were using everything from rival miniature companies' models, to Hornby train sets as part of their armies, and GW did. Not. Want. That. At. All.

[Trekkin]

Mostly it was to prevent conversions using 3rd-party miniatures. The amount of kit bashing that could be done and still make it look 'Orky' mean that some dumbasses were using everything from rival miniature companies' models, to Hornby train sets as part of their armies, and GW did. Not. Want. That. At. All.

So you mean that GW saw players actually put together Orky war trains -- I can only assume with Grot stokers and Orks in engineer garb and Deffcowcatchas-- and decided that this was a thing to be discouraged?

What a very great pity.

[boomwolf]

Yea, because it makes them no money.

I hope looting is back.
I'm not orks player, but the implications are fun.
Plus, if orks can loot, chaos can corrupt :-P

[Drasius]

So you mean that GW saw players actually put together Orky war trains -- I can only assume with Grot stokers and Orks in engineer garb and Deffcowcatchas-- and decided that this was a thing to be discouraged?

What a very great pity.

GW saw people not buying their models, and even worse, buying their competitors models instead of theirs, and decided it was a thing to be discouraged. As a business, it would be the right thing to do for said business, so I'm not sure why people are getting salty about it.

[Bobby Baratheon]

It does make business sense, though I suppose Ork players can always count their contraptions as Trukks or Battlewagons, depending on size. It would be nice for at least a nod to it, or just an adaptation of the 50% GW rule for conversions.

[Wraith]

So you mean that GW saw players actually put together Orky war trains -- I can only assume with Grot stokers and Orks in engineer garb and Deffcowcatchas-- and decided that this was a thing to be discouraged?

What a very great pity.

I saw Trukks and Battlewagons with all sorts of brik-a-brak stuck to them, from various sources up to and including 12" Gundam action figures, but I have never seen a fully converted Wartrain. I like to think it definitely did happen, though.

[Tome]

I saw Trukks and Battlewagons with all sorts of brik-a-brak stuck to them, from various sources up to and including 12" Gundam action figures, but I have never seen a fully converted Wartrain. I like to think it definitely did happen, though.
It definitely did.
https://spikeybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/1361800207_nepotops21.jpg

[Brookshw]

GW saw people not buying their models, and even worse, buying their competitors models instead of theirs, and decided it was a thing to be discouraged. As a business, it would be the right thing to do for said business, so I'm not sure why people are getting salty about it.

Business sense, sure, sounds good. However it did take something away which players otherwise had so there was a loss (not counting the time and effort already spent when it was legit). Without an offset, i.e. here are more new cool orky pieces to play w/, its easy to be annoyed. It I take away your hamburger and give you a slice of pizza you may be annoyed, but if I take away your hamburger and give you nothing back you'll be more annoyed.

They did make rules for looted tanks so I guess there is that, but they didn't give a kit for them so that's kinda weird and maybe a bit counter productive :smallconfused:

[Blackhawk748]

I never did understand why they got rid of Looted Vehicles except in order to shower their preferred players with more exclusive goodies.

There was such an uproar about them removing the Looted Wagon they had to give us the stats for it in White Dwarf.

Like i said, Orks got 2 new units in 7th. That is 6 new units since 4th. 3 of which happen to be the plane, and only 1 of those was ever remotely usable, 1 is that other Ork Plane noone has, cuz the rules are in a book noone cares about and the other 2 are the Naughts and they where overpriced trash. How many new fangled toys did Space marines get?

I guess what im saying is, is that other people get new things too, its just that their new things are usually lazily made or just bad.

[Drasius]

Business sense, sure, sounds good. However it did take something away which players otherwise had so there was a loss (not counting the time and effort already spent when it was legit). Without an offset, i.e. here are more new cool orky pieces to play w/, its easy to be annoyed. It I take away your hamburger and give you a slice of pizza you may be annoyed, but if I take away your hamburger and give you nothing back you'll be more annoyed.

They did make rules for looted tanks so I guess there is that, but they didn't give a kit for them so that's kinda weird and maybe a bit counter productive :smallconfused:

If you insist on buying a hamburger from my competitor that is made using my stolen ingredients, then you can't (or, rather, shouldn't) complain to me when they get shut down regardless of how delicious it is.

I'm not saying that GW has been a generous overseer to Ork players (or anyone who doesn't play marines, eldar or tau over the last ~5 years), I'm just saying that there is a good, logical reason for them to take the steps that they did. Yes, it sucks balls that GW insists on giving marines 15 different variations of the same thing on top of a dozen new kits they didn't need or ask for while many other armies are still metal/finecast/upgrade kits, but we all know that's how they roll because marines alone sell roughly the same amount as all the other races combined. To a certain extent, marines actually subsidise the "lesser" armies, so as much as we'd like to whinge, moan and complain, I strongly suspect that we'd all whine a lot more if the $ price of our favourite armies kit doubled overnight while marines went down 25%.

[boomwolf]

That's not true.

Orks spesifically got shafted, but during the same time period quite a few non marines got love.
Nids got quite a few stuff, some more viable than others, but a wide veriaty, plus the genestealer cult sub-army got returned to the game (was it last seen in third edition iirc?) and looks and plays well.
Harlequins made it back to the game with some gorgeous kits. The main thing keeping them down, us craftworld bring so absurdly strong that other eldar can't find niches craftworld dosent dominant.
Admech got entire lines of things,split into two armies for some reason (three if you count Knights), but they are good, and they mix well.
Tau "main" line (as on actual tau and not auxiliary) has been thoroughly expanded, and many kits updated. The only things NOT updated are the tanks, shadowsun, stealth suits, aunva and the auxiliaries. More than half the model line of 5th got updated, and about as much new content introduced.
Chaos got the daemon engines, who you either love or hate (split audience here), and late 7th saw some awesome 1ksons models, even if the rules are not fully baked, and finally got legions back.


Marines got the most, and the best, but many armies got themselves a patch, or even a full bloen face-lift over 6th and 7th. Not to mention the newly revived armies.

[Brookshw]

If you insist on buying a hamburger from my competitor that is made using my stolen ingredients, then you can't (or, rather, shouldn't) complain to me when they get shut down regardless of how delicious it is.


The distinction that I believe people are agitated by is that the hamburger was originally legal. Can't blame GW for backtracking, but I can understand why people were upset. Don't forget, those models they can't use anymore were still an investment by them.



Nids got quite a few stuff, They can have the maleceptor back (and I'd give back the toxicrene as well though I gather some people like it).

[Lost Demiurge]

Everyone in my local crowd is pretty hyped for Eighth. Don't think I'll be getting the box, since I have no use for the nurgle stuff, but I'm down for the main book and the indices.

The indices are what has me REALLY excited. For the first time, every army's getting updated to the new rules at once. Across-the-board balancing makes me smile.

Granted, the power creep will start up again with new books shortly, but that's fine. It's GW, any attempt at actually leveling things out is to be encouraged and celebrated.

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/new-warhammer-40000-missions/

Missions today!

Intro:
-Player placed objectives, unlike AoS which are all static based on the mission
-Alternating unit deployment, which is much better imo
-Shown mission ends at 5, no random game length (please be standard)

Basic Mission from Free Rules:
-Person who has less Power Points decides who has the first turn. If both are the same, person who wins deployment rolloff decides.
-If the Underdog (person with lower PPoints) is way less, they get rerolls based on how outmatched they are. Really good for Open Play
-Mission has 3 potential victory conditions. End of game across 4 objectives, end of game for single objective, or growing points over turns.
-Underdog wins if it's a tie.

More info:
-3 Open Play missions, 6 Narrative, 12 Matched Play Missions (6 Maelstrom, 6 Eternal War)! 21 Missions + free one!
-Narrative missions based around attacker/defender it seems, with specific Stratagems.
-Shown Attack/Defend stratagems:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New40kMissionsSabotageStrats.jpg
-New (well, classic but wasn't in any of 7th) deployment type shown
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New40kMissionsMap.jpg
-New Maelstrom Deck, new Maelstrom Stratagem for 2 CP that lets you discard and redraw.

Looks awesome to me!

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/

ORKS

-Meganobz are a 2+ W3, which is very tough in this edition
-Big Choppa seems pretty good (S+2, Ap-1, 2 Damage)
-Warboss can hit d3 models in a unit to prevent more from running away
-Nobz stop fleeing from Morale tests on a 6+ for nearby units (supporting Boyz blobs)
-Mob rule apparently lets you have LD equal to the number of models in a unit, making big blobs of Boyz very hard to shift via Morale
-Painboy gives a nearby unit 6+ wound ignore (FNP). Dunno if this is passive or an ability that needs to be activated.
-KFF is a 5++ against shooting for all nearby units! Stack that 5++/6+++ for hard to shift Orks!
-WAAAGH lets you Advance + Charge (unknown if it's a one-off or all the time)
-'Ere We Go rerolls charge distances, unknown if it's just an army rule or more specific
-Wierdboy has Da Jump spell, letting him teleport one nearby Ork unit anywhere on the board with no scatter, 9" away. Guessing you can still charge since that seems to be standard now, but no scatter is a big deal!

[Eddums]

I'm getting the impression that the 8th Ed. 'codices' (as opposed to 'indices', oh, this is gonna be fun) will primarily be fluff and model based, rather than rules.

So, everyone gets their rules all together in the indices, then over the next few months, codices are released which reprint the rules, and add all the fluff/pretty model pics/theme idea/whatever. That way, the rules get to remain internally balanced, and veteran gamers don't have to buy all the fluff/model stuff unless they want to.

Not sure how this stacks up to other people's information, as I say, it's just the impression I have.

[Voidhawk]

Stacking a 5++/6+++ is not exactly what I'd call durable. :smallconfused:
If you take 9 wounds you'll (on average) save 4/9. Which, while better than none, is nothing to bother advertising.

[Requizen]

Stacking a 5++/6+++ is not exactly what I'd call durable. :smallconfused:
If you take 9 wounds you'll (on average) save 4/9. Which, while better than none, is nothing to bother advertising.

Well if Boyz are still as cheap as they are now, saving nearly half the wounds regardless of strength/AP is nothing to sneeze at. The amazing thing is having multiple 30 Ork blobs making each other essentially Fearless.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Hero placement looks like it's going to be a big deal, but especially for the greenskins (and I guess IG and 'Nid blobs too). If you're running 30 models per basic infantry squad, you might run out of actual physical space to put things and utilizing the 6" radius on a lot of these hero buffs could be tricky. Though the new character rules means it's easy to sandwich them safely between two large squads I guess.

[bluntpencil]

Hero placement looks like it's going to be a big deal, but especially for the greenskins (and I guess IG and 'Nid blobs too). If you're running 30 models per basic infantry squad, you might run out of actual physical space to put things and utilizing the 6" radius on a lot of these hero buffs could be tricky. Though the new character rules means it's easy to sandwich them safely between two large squads I guess.

Definitely!

Hide them behind your guys, to ensure they're safe, and you'll have to remove guys closer to the enemy, so you don't end up out of range. Put them forward and you might get shot!

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I think combining the new morale rules and the new Character rules should make some more interesting tactical movement, and Snipers are for sure going to become vital even against Horde armies in a way they weren't earlier.

[Requizen]

Definitely!

Hide them behind your guys, to ensure they're safe, and you'll have to remove guys closer to the enemy, so you don't end up out of range. Put them forward and you might get shot!

Well don't forget that Ork characters want to get into the fight. If you're hiding your Megaboss and Painboy to keep things safe, they're not getting in with Klaws. Positioning is going to be a super big deal for every army!


I think combining the new morale rules and the new Character rules should make some more interesting tactical movement, and Snipers are for sure going to become vital even against Horde armies in a way they weren't earlier.

*Looks expectantly at my Deathmarks*

[Blackhawk748]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/

ORKS

Ok, lets get into this....



-Meganobz are a 2+ W3, which is very tough in this edition
-Big Choppa seems pretty good (S+2, Ap-1, 2 Damage)

Meganobz are largely what i figured they'd be, ie solid and the Big Choppa doing 2 damage actually makes it viable now


-Warboss can hit d3 models in a unit to prevent more from running away
-Nobz stop fleeing from Morale tests on a 6+ for nearby units (supporting Boyz blobs)

So he has a built in (and crappier) bosspole and apparently they learned nothing from New Ramshackle, not realy zesty here, but its free so w/e


-Mob rule apparently lets you have LD equal to the number of models in a unit, making big blobs of Boyz very hard to shift via Morale

*checks the date* its not a decade ago, but thats my old Mob Rule..... ITS BACK BABY!!!


-Painboy gives a nearby unit 6+ wound ignore (FNP). Dunno if this is passive or an ability that needs to be activated.

*crashes* Eewww, way to punish all the peole who bought 3+ Painboyz GW. Geez, and FnP was the only reason you bought a Painboy. Heres hoping theres a way to up that, cuz that sucks.



-KFF is a 5++ against shooting for all nearby units! Stack that 5++/6+++ for hard to shift Orks!
-WAAAGH lets you Advance + Charge (unknown if it's a one-off or all the time)

So pretty much what they are now and have been for two Codexes? Moving on.



-'Ere We Go rerolls charge distances, unknown if it's just an army rule or more specific

Well thats a nice improvement, still wish Charge distances wherent random, but at least you actually move them now. Progress!


-Wierdboy has Da Jump spell, letting him teleport one nearby Ork unit anywhere on the board with no scatter, 9" away. Guessing you can still charge since that seems to be standard now, but no scatter is a big deal!

Well thank Mork this is finally decent.

All in all, not bad, not great, more or less what i figured.


Well if Boyz are still as cheap as they are now, saving nearly half the wounds regardless of strength/AP is nothing to sneeze at. The amazing thing is having multiple 30 Ork blobs making each other essentially Fearless.

You mean that thing we did for three Editions? It was great in 4th, but it tanked quick after that, and we still have the same problems we had back then. On the plus side this edition at least makes our standard Anti Tank (bury it in Rokkits/Deffguns) more viable than it used to be.

[Renegade Paladin]

-Shown mission ends at 5, no random game length (please be standard)

Well, that does explain how they plan on shoehorning 1500 point games into 90 minutes. Just make the game have fewer turns. Presto! :smalltongue:


All superheavies are Lords of War, so no shadowsword or so on his side.

At 29 models though?
A tooled up HQ, some SS terminators, and some super dreadnoughts is what I'd expect. 30k has some dreads who are "not quite superheavies, but close"
Eh. I can make Terminators roll 1s, and bring more anti-tank than I know what to do with even in 1500.

At any rate, I wasn't really looking for tips on tailoring to fight 30k Imperial Fists; the main purpose of the question was to ask if the game would even work, like do the rules function in broadly the same way?


I'm getting the impression that the 8th Ed. 'codices' (as opposed to 'indices', oh, this is gonna be fun) will primarily be fluff and model based, rather than rules.

So, everyone gets their rules all together in the indices, then over the next few months, codices are released which reprint the rules, and add all the fluff/pretty model pics/theme idea/whatever. That way, the rules get to remain internally balanced, and veteran gamers don't have to buy all the fluff/model stuff unless they want to.

Not sure how this stacks up to other people's information, as I say, it's just the impression I have.
From what they've said, the codices are going to have more rules content, primarily army-specific stratagems and force organization. I'd hazard to guess that's how they're going to introduce new units, too.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't really like the look of the basic mission. Also I'm sad it doesn't have a kill point version built into it.

[Renegade Paladin]

I don't really like the look of the basic mission. Also I'm sad it doesn't have a kill point version built into it.
If you can't devise a kill point mission without GW building it for you, I don't know what to say. :smalltongue: It's the easiest kind of mission to write, and the hardest kind to balance (which is why I imagine they've never even tried to do the latter).

[Drasius]

I'm getting the impression that the 8th Ed. 'codices' (as opposed to 'indices', oh, this is gonna be fun) will primarily be fluff and model based, rather than rules.

So, everyone gets their rules all together in the indices, then over the next few months, codices are released which reprint the rules, and add all the fluff/pretty model pics/theme idea/whatever. That way, the rules get to remain internally balanced, and veteran gamers don't have to buy all the fluff/model stuff unless they want to.

Not sure how this stacks up to other people's information, as I say, it's just the impression I have.

Go have a look at the AoS battletomes (the 4 books for the 4 major factions) and whatever the hell they call their expansions for individual factions. I'd wager that's exactly what we're going to get for 40k with the battletome equivalent being the 5x Indecies at launch (with all the major and some minor factions) and the codecies being the individual faction supplements/expansions (where you'll not only see a fleshing out of the major factions but will also see some of the minor factions reintroduced).

[Rizhail]

Some folks over on the 40k reddit caught something neat: a lot of units have changed FoC slot types on the 40k store. For instance: in the nid army Carnifexes went from heavy support to elites, Deathleaper from HQ to elites, and Tervigons from HQ to heavy support. Looks like a lot of the non-super heavy Lords of War in other armies went back to being HQs as well.

An interesting one to me is that it looks like Kroot squads have now split: Shapers are HQs (fits with the character preview article having them as independent characters with buff auras), carnivores are still troops, hounds are fast attack, and krootox are back in heavy support. Assuming this is in prep for 8th and not one of the occasional GW site glitches, it looks like it might be possible to build a Kroot merc army for the first time in a few editions. Could be fun, depending on their stats and gear in the new edition.

I'm not familiar enough with all the different armies to figure out what all has changed and what it might mean for army composition (only knowing 4 of the 14 FoCs available at launch certainly doesn't help there), but it's possible there might be some other neat changes.

[Requizen]

Today's discussion points:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/26/new-warhammer-40000-primaris-space-marinesgw-homepage-post-4/

Primaris Marines. Some profiles shown:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New40kPrimarisCaptainAgainFull.jpg

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New40kPrimarisInceptorVersion2Full.jpg

Both look solid. Captain can be used as a buff bot as well as a decent melee beatstick. Interceptors are pretty solid harass/flanking units with their good guns (6 shots BS3+ S5 AP-1) and ability to Strike in with no scatter. New "Hammer of Wrath" deals MWs but only on a 6.

Primaris look a lot like Stormcast - very strong, but relatively limited in weapon/upgrade options, and low model count. Will be countered hardcore by things that can bust down high Tough multiwound units, but will feel really strong against other armies.


Other thing of note:

If you look on the webstore, FOC has changed for certain units. Carnifexes are Elites now, for instance, and Tervigons went to Heavy Support. Necrons shuffled a bit as well, though nothing major other than Tesseract Vault and Obelisks no longer being LoW and instead HQ/Heavy respectively. I don't think Marine armies changed that much. Check your own forces!

[Blackhawk748]

Wait, wait, wait, Power Swords do 2 Damage and are -3 AP? What in the **** is the reason to use a Power Fist/Klaw when the Sword has more reliable Damage and no penalty to hit? Good god.

[Requizen]

Wait, wait, wait, Power Swords do 2 Damage and are -3 AP? What in the **** is the reason to use a Power Fist/Klaw when the Sword has more reliable Damage and no penalty to hit? Good god.

The double strength. S4 is nice and all but S8 will wound more reliably against lots of stuff. And the off chance you roll a bunch of 3s for damage.

[Blackhawk748]

The double strength. S4 is nice and all but S8 will wound more reliably against lots of stuff. And the off chance you roll a bunch of 3s for damage.

Well Power Fists/Klaws better not cost more than other Power Weapons then, cuz that penalty and the unreliable damage kinda compensates for the double strength, especially considering how less important that is now.

And im now pissed about the Big Choppas cuz i thought them getting 2 Dam was Orks compensation for lousy AP. Whelp guess thats shot to hell. And the interceptors guns, good lord.

[LeSwordfish]

Man, Mortal Wounds are cropping up a lot. Why does this dude Goomba-Stomping someone hit with comparable strength to a reaper chainsword?

[JNAProductions]

Man, Mortal Wounds are cropping up a lot. Why does this dude Goomba-Stomping someone hit with comparable strength to a reaper chainsword?

I thought Reaper Chainswords were just 6 damage-not Mortal.

[Requizen]

Well Power Fists/Klaws better not cost more than other Power Weapons then, cuz that penalty and the unreliable damage kinda compensates for the double strength, especially considering how less important that is now.

And im now pissed about the Big Choppas cuz i thought them getting 2 Dam was Orks compensation for lousy AP. Whelp guess thats shot to hell. And the interceptors guns, good lord.
Well hold up there. Regular power weapons are only Damage 1, it's the Master Crafted that are Damage 2, so Big Choppas still have that advantage.

Man, Mortal Wounds are cropping up a lot. Why does this dude Goomba-Stomping someone hit with comparable strength to a reaper chainsword?

How a lot? It's been a spell, the short ranged gun on the Leviathan, and this charge ability? Which requires you to get the charge, be within 1" (which means it may only be one dude and not the whole unit), and then roll a 6? That's not really overbearing in my book.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, double checked-the Reaper Chainsword does NOT seem to do Mortal Wounds.

In other words, Hammer of Wrath is capable of being deadlier than a former D-Weapon.

[LeSwordfish]

I guess my concern is that Age Of Sigmar deals out Mortal Wounds like candy to deal with how little variance it has in its ability to deal damage otherwise. They're a big deal - there are literally two "Mortal Wound" (no saves at all) effects in the entire game right now (Str-D 6, and that one str10 Eldar power). I was hoping GW would be more restrained with them - imagine a unit that had a Str10 Ap1 Ignores Cover No Invulns Hammer Of Wrath attack!

EDIT: Ah, only on a six! Even so...

[JNAProductions]

I guess my concern is that Age Of Sigmar deals out Mortal Wounds like candy to deal with how little variance it has in its ability to deal damage otherwise. They're a big deal - there are literally two "Mortal Wound" (no saves at all) effects in the entire game right now (Str-D 6, and that one str10 Eldar power). I was hoping GW would be more restrained with them - imagine a unit that had a Str10 Ap1 Ignores Cover No Invulns Hammer Of Wrath attack!

C'Tan Phase Sword, Shieldbreaker rounds, Stomps (on a 6).

So 5.

[Blackhawk748]

Well hold up there. Regular power weapons are only Damage 1, it's the Master Crafted that are Damage 2, so Big Choppas still have that advantage.

Ok, that makes me way less pissed.

[Requizen]

Yeah, double checked-the Reaper Chainsword does NOT seem to do Mortal Wounds.

In other words, Hammer of Wrath is capable of being deadlier than a former D-Weapon.

"Deadlier"?

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the Reaper Chainsword is AP-4 (maaaybe AP-3), meaning yes Terminators will get a save against that and not Hammer of Wrath... but also the Chainsword deals 6 wounds and the impact hit deals 1, and Terminators have 2 wounds now. So... the HoW hit is deadlier against 2+, single wound models, if any exist.

1 MW maybe on a 6 if you get the charge (does nothing when you are charged), but I would not call it "deadlier" by any stretch of the imagination in a real game.

[JNAProductions]

Ignores Invulns, is the key.

So against, say, Pink Horrors? It's a 16% chance of killing one as opposed to a (2/3*5/6*1/2) 27% chance (if the Knight is at full health).

Okay, yeah, the Reaper Chainsword is about twice as effective as Hammer of Wrath against Pink Horrors.

It's probably mechanically sound-it just doesn't FEEL right.

[Requizen]

More dripfed leaks: Detachments

https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18622535_10206864106121307_3797624549312025127_n.j pg?oh=55482d224df7d6b7bf5b67d44c1fab7c&oe=59AE61A5

https://scontent.ford1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740383_10206864106361313_2514828268980596338_n.j pg?oh=cf1c73f00bb1b88b3cfcf92866d69d96&oe=59B3D2AE

So you can make a list of max Elites, FA, or HS if you want, but you lose out on command points. Interesting.

Couple different ways to get superheavies.

Auxiliary Support Detachment wording makes it sound like you can't stack the same detachment for multiple Command Point bonuses. So no taking multiple Battalions (new CAD) for a bunch of +3 bonuses.

List building sounds super interesting!

[Rizhail]

That means we now know 12 of the 14 detachments that will be available; the nine Requizen linked and the three escalating forms of CAD that were initially shown. I'm happy to see that my wish for an assault-heavy Ynnari bike army should work out. No more required troops means no more windriders to fill in required slots, and more space for the reavers, skyweavers, and shining spears I wanted to play with. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Shooting rules have also leaked (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/40k-8th-shooting-rules-spotted.html).

A few tidbits:

-A model with more than one ranged weapon can fire ALL OF THEM (with one exception, see below).
-Assault weapons can be fired even if you advance, but take a -1 to hit in that case.
-Grenades are still 1 shot per shooting phase per unit
-Pistols are the only weapon you can fire if you're engaged in combat, but when firing a pistol you have to choose between using pistol(s) or ALL of your other ranged weapons. So no firing a bolter and bolt pistol in the same turn. On the other hand, since it calls it out, you can fire every pistol a model has at the same time, so gunslinger is once again built into any model with more than one pistol.

[Forum Explorer]

So you can run and shoot assault weapons? Cool, and it makes Battle Focus less OP since it'll just be ignoring the -1 to hit presumably.

I wonder if the Avatar is going to move to HQ again? The Lord of War slot seems to be pretty hard to get (needing either 2 more Lord of Wars or 3 HQ choices.)

[Requizen]

That means we now know 12 of the 14 detachments that will be available; the nine Requizen linked and the three escalating forms of CAD that were initially shown. I'm happy to see that my wish for an assault-heavy Ynnari bike army should work out. No more required troops means no more windriders to fill in required slots, and more space for the reavers, skyweavers, and shining spears I wanted to play with. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Shooting rules have also leaked (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/05/40k-8th-shooting-rules-spotted.html).

A few tidbits:

-A model with more than one ranged weapon can fire ALL OF THEM (with one exception, see below).
-Assault weapons can be fired even if you advance, but take a -1 to hit in that case.
-Grenades are still 1 shot per shooting phase per unit
-Pistols are the only weapon you can fire if you're engaged in combat, but when firing a pistol you have to choose between using pistol(s) or ALL of your other ranged weapons. So no firing a bolter and bolt pistol in the same turn. On the other hand, since it calls it out, you can fire every pistol a model has at the same time, so gunslinger is once again built into any model with more than one pistol.
Awesome. Assault weapons will make armies with them really fast, which is cool.

Also, no rules on any of them preventing charge after shooting. Nice. I like the speed that games seem to be played at now.

So you can run and shoot assault weapons? Cool, and it makes Battle Focus less OP since it'll just be ignoring the -1 to hit presumably.

I wonder if the Avatar is going to move to HQ again? The Lord of War slot seems to be pretty hard to get (needing either 2 more Lord of Wars or 3 HQ choices.)

Avatar is currently listed as HQ on the webstore. WK still LoW. Wish granted?

[Renegade Paladin]

I just went to the webstore to check Guard and about had a heart attack. Nothing seems to have changed force organization-wise, but everything was double the price.

Then I realized it had reset itself to deliver to Australia for some reason. Guys, I am so, so sorry you have to deal with that. :smalleek:

Checking exchange rates, $1.00 USD = $1.34 AUD, but a Leman Russ costs $49.50 in the United States and $98 in Australia. How does anyone down there actually play this game?

Edit: Militarum Tempestus lists both their command squads and regular guys as Elites, with Commissars as HQ (and no longer have the Valkyrie on their product page). Not sure if the former is a change; I know the latter is.

[Requizen]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333946-8th-edition-primaris-space-marines/page-5#entry4755729

Lots of info. Primaris points are in there too. So it looks like the points for a model and the points for a weapon are separate, even if it's the "stock" weapon for that model. Which will make calculating points... interesting.

Also, Plasma has new rules, or at least the Primaris version does.

Perils of the Warp is double 1s or double 6s, d3 mortal wounds.

Transport rules are there in full, as are all phase rules.

[Theodoric]

Also, Plasma has new rules, or at least the Primaris version does.
I hope it'll be universal (a bit like Ion weapons, probably), currently plasma weapons on some units are almost a bigger threat to their bearers than to the enemy, despite a premium cost.

[Renegade Paladin]

Man, Perils of the Warp got a lot nastier. :smalleek:

[boomwolf]

Oh, that side view of the Plasma Incinirator.

If anyone STILL had doubts Cawl is outright copying Tau tech, there you go. that's practically a hybrid of classic SM plasma rifle and the Tau battlesuit plasma rifle.
The flying dudes, probably based on tau battlesuit tech as well.


I wonder how the more xenophobe factions in the IoM will react to his obvious heresy once they find out.
The revelation that the "new marines" are made via xeno tech might lead to a new civil war.



The interceptors looks brutal on the field though. 10 movement, powerful guns and possible mortal wounds on the charge. yikes.

PPM is revealed to be VERY gradual, and far less "clean numbers" than even 7th has been, both a positive and a negative.
Hellblaster team members for some reason cheaper than intercessor on a glance, until you realize they also need to pay for the gun-and that jumps the price tag a lot.
Compared to known tactical SM cost of 13, I'm not sold on intercessors for 24 being all that hot.
And the scary interceptors clock at a wooping 53 a piece. That's a crisis suit.



Ok the bright side, we can see that the numarines are not going to be "must haves". guys are expensive, very much so at times. (hellblaster clocks at 40 each!)



Overall, after this leak, my stance on 8th shifts from "careful optimism" to "slightly excited"

[RagingBluMunky]

I'm actually kinda upset about the inceptors. I feel like they completely obsolete assault squads. Compared​ to a 5 man assault squad, they have higher​ toughness, more wounds, a ridiculous amount of shooting (six shots per marine!), and only lose 4 attacks. So it seems to me that unless assault squads keep their 12 inch move, are significantly cheaper, and also have the crushing charge and meteoric descent rules, there doesn't seem to be much point in taking them.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, or is this ridiculous?

[Drasius]

I just went to the webstore to check Guard and about had a heart attack. Nothing seems to have changed force organization-wise, but everything was double the price.

Then I realized it had reset itself to deliver to Australia for some reason. Guys, I am so, so sorry you have to deal with that. :smalleek:

Checking exchange rates, $1.00 USD = $1.34 AUD, but a Leman Russ costs $49.50 in the United States and $98 in Australia. How does anyone down there actually play this game?

Check some of the (physically) big stuff like WK and defilers. Last time I checked they were actually cheaper here than the US. Having said that, IIRC, a soul grinder is significantly more here than the US. There's no consistancy in how or why we're horribly over charged for things. We certainly do get screwed on most things though.

As for points costs, yeah, the inceptors are pricy, but you have to remember that they're ASM wielding 2 heavy bolters that can fire both after jumping and running and have no scatter deepstrike available to them and have 2W each. That's worthy of being a bunch of points. I am sad that they "fixed" ASM by giving them a bunch of shooting weapons rather than making them capable in melee though. I always loved the ASM models and the idea of marines running (or jumping) around with chainswords hacking into the enemy.

I like that plasma not only has managed to fix the overheating problem, but also kept the flavour of gets hot!, though I do question the +1 str and +1 damage as it seems to be a bit of a no-brainer to wind them up against anything with multiple wounds or T8+. Still, they are 17 points and the firing model is slain outright, regardless of wounds if they roll that 1, so it'll be far more dangerous for the primaris marines compared to regular 1W marines using plasma. I wonder if this change is just for the new marines plasma incinerators or if it's for regular plasma guns too?

[boomwolf]

I'm actually kinda upset about the inceptors. I feel like they completely obsolete assault squads. Compared​ to a 5 man assault squad, they have higher​ toughness, more wounds, a ridiculous amount of shooting (six shots per marine!), and only lose 4 attacks. So it seems to me that unless assault squads keep their 12 inch move, are significantly cheaper, and also have the crushing charge and meteoric descent rules, there doesn't seem to be much point in taking them.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, or is this ridiculous?

Considering these guys are 53 each, and assault marines probably share the speed and deepstrike, probably, yes.
Especially considering 8th is supposed to rebalance things, and current assault marines are already absolute by bikes (unless you play one the wildest 3d table)

Compare them to bikes, not assault marines.
When compared to bikes, they are questionable.
Just like the intercesstors compared to the much cheaper tactical squads.

Numarines are expensive as hell.

[DaedalusMkV]

I'm actually kinda upset about the inceptors. I feel like they completely obsolete assault squads. Compared​ to a 5 man assault squad, they have higher​ toughness, more wounds, a ridiculous amount of shooting (six shots per marine!), and only lose 4 attacks. So it seems to me that unless assault squads keep their 12 inch move, are significantly cheaper, and also have the crushing charge and meteoric descent rules, there doesn't seem to be much point in taking them.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, or is this ridiculous?

Assuming Assault Marines wind up around 16-17 ppm, you can't really directly compare them. 5 Assault Marines under said rules come out to a smidge over 80 points, compared to ~160 points for three Inceptors. You should be comparing 8-10 ASM to three Inceptors, where you'll see the Marines have more Wounds, way more CC attacks (more than double, in fact), less vulnerability to multi-wound and high-S attacks and access to Special Weapons and specialist melee weapons.

In short, Inceptors are in no way a replacement for ASM. They shoot way harder than ASM, at least against infantry, but they'll have nowhere near the staying power in CC that the much more numerous normal Marines will be able to bring to the table. Plus, they can't shoot their guns in melee, while ASM can. That probably counts for something too.

[Drasius]

I'm actually kinda upset about the inceptors. I feel like they completely obsolete assault squads. Compared​ to a 5 man assault squad, they have higher​ toughness, more wounds, a ridiculous amount of shooting (six shots per marine!), and only lose 4 attacks. So it seems to me that unless assault squads keep their 12 inch move, are significantly cheaper, and also have the crushing charge and meteoric descent rules, there doesn't seem to be much point in taking them.

Am I blowing this out of proportion, or is this ridiculous?

Given that everything with deep strike we've seen so far has the no scatter, place outside of 9" from enemy rules, I'd put money on that being the new standard for mid game arrival. Also, ASM will be able to fire their pistols in CC (only in their shooting phase, so it's not as good as it sounds) and given that the inceptors are 53ppm while regular tacticals are 13ppm, you'd assume that regular ASM are only going to be a few more points than regular marines. Plus the reduced move is a thing common to new marines while all of the older marines have kept their 6" move, so once again, the smart money would suggest that ASM will be moving 12".

In other words, yes, I think you're blowing things way out of proportion. I'd be more worried about the fact that a squad of inceptors is basically 10 heavy bolters with the ability to move 10" (or DS) and fire with no penalty, cause that's rough considering how good str5 ap-1 is going to be. It IS 265 points for a squad though, and that seems like a lot when a marine is 13ppm. Still, if you could have 10x heavy bolters in a 10 man dev squad, that'd be 230 points and you'd have the same number of shots and the same number of wounds but double the range but no ability to DS or move + shoot (or possibly move + run + shoot from what I understand about assault weapons). Assuming that ASM remain roughly the same points, a 10 man squad of ASM with a veteran sarge, power fist, 2x evicerators and a pair of flamers will run you around 265'ish points (assuming they can still take all of that). If I wanted to hit stuff in combat, I'd still take the ASM for the same price, but yeah, it's hard to pass up 30 heavy bolter shots for the same price when they have better str, better ap and don't have to be hit back in the assault phase.

Edit: Beaten like a Schola orphan.

Also, I made a whoopsie since I read the chart wrong and thought that you could have 5 iceptors in a squad. Numbers still hold true for comparisons on points though and it should be easy to take 2 squads if reuired since traditionally FA has been a fairly uncompetative slot.

Double Edit: Physcic phase rules for those who want a more wordy view:

http://image.bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_13098/gallery_8429_13098_32169.jpg

Triple Edit: Transports. That disembark rule seems like a fantastic reason to go back to 28mm bases for large squads. Not loving the roll a 1 and you're dead rule either, but hey, about time transports had a drawback.

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18699965_1450048118394677_944630497846256815_n.jpg ?oh=7f81ac887aee7491fb9fa406f9bc6824&oe=59E79ECF

[Renegade Paladin]

So, I know 7th edition lists are going to become irrelevant here in about three weeks, but I have a game to play on Sunday that isn't waiting for 8th.

2500 points

Tank Commander - 380
-Vanquisher commander (Warlord)
--Lascannon
--Kabe's Herald
-Executioner
--Plasma cannons

Primaris Psyker - 75
-Mastery Level 2

Ministorum Priest - 25

Enginseer - 60
-Two servitors

Infantry Platoon - 240
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon, flamer, melta bombs
-Infantry Squad\
--Lascannon, flamer, power axe

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 100
-Two plasma guns

Sly Marbo - 25

Hellhound - 125

Tauros - 45
-Tauros grenade launcher

Leman Russ Squadron - 300
-Two Battle Tanks

Wyvern - 65

Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery - 75
-Earthshaker cannon

Aegis Defense Line - 100
-Quad gun

Baneblade - 575
-Sponsons
I just took an existing 1850 list and tacked stuff on. I could probably build it better as a cohesive whole, but eh.

The heavy artillery battery is contingent on me getting said artillery piece tomorrow; otherwise I'll have to stick something else in. I'm avoiding flyers because he says he doesn't have any. The Baneblade is in there just to fill points; it replaces the Shadowsword from the 1850 tournament list to be more sporting. The Tauros, similarly, fills a 45 point hole I had at the end because it costs that much and I almost never use it.

Given I'm facing a low number of elite Marines, it would probably be more efficient to just drop the Baneblade and spam 500 points worth of storm troopers (which I can do), but I don't want to tailor too hard. Any thoughts, in light of the fact this is going into a game of 30k? (If it wasn't, I wouldn't bother asking at this late date in the edition.)

[Drasius]

So, I know 7th edition lists are going to become irrelevant here in about three weeks, but I have a game to play on Sunday that isn't waiting for 8th.

2500 points

Tank Commander - 380
-Vanquisher commander (Warlord)
--Lascannon
--Kabe's Herald
-Executioner
--Plasma cannons

Primaris Psyker - 75
-Mastery Level 2

Ministorum Priest - 25

Enginseer - 60
-Two servitors

Infantry Platoon - 240
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon, flamer, melta bombs
-Infantry Squad\
--Lascannon, flamer, power axe

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 100
-Two plasma guns

Sly Marbo - 25

Hellhound - 125

Tauros - 45
-Tauros grenade launcher

Leman Russ Squadron - 300
-Two Battle Tanks

Wyvern - 65

Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery - 75
-Earthshaker cannon

Aegis Defense Line - 100
-Quad gun

Baneblade - 575
-Sponsons
I just took an existing 1850 list and tacked stuff on. I could probably build it better as a cohesive whole, but eh.

The heavy artillery battery is contingent on me getting said artillery piece tomorrow; otherwise I'll have to stick something else in. I'm avoiding flyers because he says he doesn't have any. The Baneblade is in there just to fill points; it replaces the Shadowsword from the 1850 tournament list to be more sporting. The Tauros, similarly, fills a 45 point hole I had at the end because it costs that much and I almost never use it.

Given I'm facing a low number of elite Marines, it would probably be more efficient to just drop the Baneblade and spam 500 points worth of storm troopers (which I can do), but I don't want to tailor too hard. Any thoughts, in light of the fact this is going into a game of 30k? (If it wasn't, I wouldn't bother asking at this late date in the edition.)

How are you getting Marbo in there?

Also, the only thing you've got that can realistically hurt the spartan that he will almost certainly have is the Vanquisher and unless you're super lucky, it's not going to stop it before it gets where it's going. Be prepared to get ~10 terminators and a combat chapter master equivalent shoved down your throat turn 2. You should have enough guardsmen to simply let him kill a unit a turn (assuming you can avoid too many multi charges) and pewpew the remainder of his forces down.

[RagingBluMunky]

That does make me feel a bit better, thanks to all of you who set me straight on that.

While I still don't think Primaris Marines are at all necessary, at least I'm over my scenery chewing about Inceptors.

[Renegade Paladin]

How are you getting Marbo in there?
Like this. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/04/sly-marbo-rules-for-warhammer-40000/) He's mainly in there because this will be my last game of 7th, and they threw that in as a sop to a guy who hounded them on Facebook to bring back Marbo in every post they made. There's no guarantee he'll make the jump to 8th.


Also, the only thing you've got that can realistically hurt the spartan that he will almost certainly have is the Vanquisher and unless you're super lucky, it's not going to stop it before it gets where it's going. Be prepared to get ~10 terminators and a combat chapter master equivalent shoved down your throat turn 2. You should have enough guardsmen to simply let him kill a unit a turn (assuming you can avoid too many multi charges) and pewpew the remainder of his forces down.
So you think I should swap back to the Shadowsword and just blow it to bits? There are lascannons in the list as well, though I recognize that individually their odds aren't good.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

What slightly annoys me about the Primaris is that the Gravis keyword seems to give Inceptors and the Captain T5. Loyalists shouldn't get refluffed Marks of Nurgle damnit.

Also Inceptors look like insane mobile gun platforms. Jump infantry dual wielding assault 18" heavy bolters?

[Saambell]

So a few things I have in response to some stuff. Mortal wounds are, if the same as AoS, auto hit auto wound no save. The first two may be an issue, but that last bit I laugh at. ANY guard or swarm nid player finds people complaining about no saves hilarious. And for the Jump Heavy Bolters, its horrible when marines get it, but Tau have been running around with always cool plasma guns on their suits for years now and that's fine?

Also, its way too late now with 7th ending in a few weeks, but can someone point me to the rule that Jetpack Infantry move 12"? Cause for all I can wrap my head around it, they seem to move only 6" but get a pseudo run in the assault phase.

There's hints there that psykers will often come with pre set powers, while there seem to be a few that still roll for random. It also seems that the only way to stop a power is to have a psyker of your own. Really hope Necrons and Tau get some replacement or such to fill in that needed spot. Some kind of warp disrupter or such.

[Theodoric]

Also, its way too late now with 7th ending in a few weeks, but can someone point me to the rule that Jetpack Infantry move 12"? Cause for all I can wrap my head around it, they seem to move only 6" but get a pseudo run in the assault phase.
Jump pack infantry move 12", jet pack infantry can jet-jump in the assault phase. In 7e Jet Pack infantry like Tau Battlesuits sacrifice direct speed for maneuverability.



Also Inceptors look like insane mobile gun platforms. Jump infantry dual wielding assault 18" heavy bolters?
Totally not fake-Battlesuits, no. :smallwink:

Yeah, Primaris marines seem pretty decent if a bit specialised and rather vulnerable to heavy artillery. The Gravis suits' S5 helps a lot against things like Earthshaker and Battle cannon, though.

[lord_khaine]

So a few things I have in response to some stuff. Mortal wounds are, if the same as AoS, auto hit auto wound no save. The first two may be an issue, but that last bit I laugh at. ANY guard or swarm nid player finds people complaining about no saves hilarious. And for the Jump Heavy Bolters, its horrible when marines get it, but Tau have been running around with always cool plasma guns on their suits for years now and that's fine?

Its IS horrible, because thats one of Tau's toys. Marines already have more of those than everyone else. And its understandable that people get upset when they still find time to steal others as well.

[Cheesegear]

but can someone point me to the rule that Jetpack Infantry move 12"?

That's not a rule that exists, which is probably why you can't find it.
Jump Packs (Rulebook, pg 65) and Jet Packs (Rulebook, pg 66) are different.


It also seems that the only way to stop a power is to have a psyker of your own. Really hope Necrons and Tau get some replacement or such to fill in that needed spot. Some kind of warp disrupter or such.

Wait. For. Abilities.
It's almost like we're being drip-fed information or something.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Crisis suits are not a problem in a vacuum (lol). Nor are Swooping Hawks or Scourges. But do Space Marines need to have them too? There's something to be said for differentiating factions by their unit choices. SM are not in any dire need of more options in any force org slot, far as I can tell (a bit late for that, I know). But now they get gun jumpers on top of their melee jumpers, while most factions have to make do with one or the other, assuming they have any jump infantry at all.

[Drasius]

What slightly annoys me about the Primaris is that the Gravis keyword seems to give Inceptors and the Captain T5. Loyalists shouldn't get refluffed Marks of Nurgle damnit.

Also Inceptors look like insane mobile gun platforms. Jump infantry dual wielding assault 18" heavy bolters?

Vanilla marines getting one of chaos' toys eh? Stop the freakin' presses.

Speaking of - Our blackshirt has the rulebook and indices and has played 5 small games of 8th at the sydney workshop and has let us know a bunch of info and everything sounds pretty rad. One thing he did mention was that marks of chaos don't do the thing anymore, rather, they're keywords just like in AoS for slaves to darkness and instead it's icons that do the thing, so it's entirely possible to have MoN marines with T4. Talk about the imperium stealing everything nice that chaos has!

Other notables that I remember:
- Swooping and gliding are still things for MC's with a seperate move characteristic
- Fliers and FMC's get either +1 armour or -1 to be hit (he couldn't remember which) but skyfire negates it
- Lascannons and Grav are both around the 48 point mark
- Grav is heavy 3 and has different profiles dependant on targets armour. if >4+, then wounds on 2's, -4 rend and does 3 wounds. If 4+ or worse, wounds on 4's, -2 rend and does d3 wounds
- No more primaris marines - What they've released so far is it (though he couldn't deny that there was scope for more releases in the near future once the marine codex comes out
- Apparently various bits and bobs work different for different sub-factions. IIRC the example given was that apothecaries had a different effect for different chapters
- Everyone gets their factions version of chapter tactics, but they're nowhere near as extensive as the traitor legions ones
- Angels of death and trator legions are both getting an 8th ed reprint & rework and will be among the first expansions released
- Confirmed that Tau can't add BS via markerlights and that it's 5! ML's to ignore soft cover and 6! ML's to ignore hard cover! Wow, talk about a big change! Apparently the focus has very much changed from ML's as main support to supporting fire as the main method of support.
- Riptides haven't changed much at all apparently and word is that not only does the HBC still get's hot, but that get's hot now works just like the new primaris marines plasma gun and flat out removes a model if it rolls a 1 on its gets hot weapons, so that's sobering news for sure!
- Ghostkeels are the new hotness, even more than before
- Land raiders are super sturdy with a 2+ and 20 wounds
- Stompa's have something absolutely silly like 48-50 wounds!
- Apparently something very similar to the old 3.5 ed/white dwarf faith system is back for sisters, who are apparently pretty brutal in 8th
- Almost all 7th ed D-weapons are just a flat 6 damage and never ignore invulnerables (same as the IK's chainsword)
- Sources of mortal wounds are super limited
- Psychers are no longer an auto-take, but are still effective without being game-changing or game breaking
- When all the managers played each other in their 5 game round-robin format, not a single army was tabled
- Apparently all the armies actually had their own flavour that could be felt when vs'ing them
- The eternal war missions are all different from the ones we have now with the randomly rolled secondaries all being different for each mission too (though limited to 3 different ones per mission)
- Most important of all, the games were both fun and very close

As the kids today would say, so hype!

Please keep in mind that the above points are all second hand from my local GW manager, but he has no reason to lie to us as we're all super-pumped for 8th anyway and he's always been truthful with us in the past when he's know something.

Edit:
- Apparently GK paladin's only have 2W but get bonus toughness or something to make them "special". Suck it draigostar fans.
- Not all DS is of the no scatter variety (which would make sense given the roll scatter and 2d6 vs target number theory we saw pop up a few weeks back).
- Apparently the Inceptors (the jump primaris ones) can go back into orbit and DS again next turn and their goofy looking harness is meant to help them survive re-entry

[LeSwordfish]

The points system seems... man, I'm not looking forward to having to add 98+48+13+32 etc etc for each unit in my head while my opponent stares at me like i'm in the wrong even though HE was the one who demanded we play 1750 when I only have a 1500 list prepared. On the one hand it's promising that they're thinking very precisely about balance, on the other I'm just cynical enough to wonder if this is because they don't want people to use this points system at all.

[Cheesegear]

One thing he did mention was that marks of chaos don't do the thing anymore, rather, they're keywords just like in AoS for slaves to darkness and instead it's icons that do the thing, so it's entirely possible to have MoN marines with T4. Talk about the imperium stealing everything nice that chaos has!

Except Khorne Bloodbound do the thing so hard.


No more primaris marines - What they've released so far is it (though he couldn't deny that there was scope for more releases in the near future once the marine codex comes out

Eh. Buy the new starter box, and you'll have pretty much everything you'll ever need.


Angels of death and trator legions are both getting an 8th ed reprint & rework and will be among the first expansions released

What's a Xeno?


Ghostkeels are the new hotness, even more than before

It's hard to imagine that GW would find a way to make them better, but that's what we all said about Eldar/6 to Eldar/7.


Land raiders are super sturdy with a 2+ and 20 wounds

That's...Hopeful.


Apparently something very similar to the old 3.5 ed/white dwarf faith system is back for sisters, who are apparently pretty brutal in 8th

We've been hearing that everything is awesome for a few weeks now.


Psychers are no longer an auto-take, but are still effective without being game-changing or game breaking

I also think it's a case of the new Perils rules being brutal. It's no longer a case of "lol, I rolled Super Saiyan.", it's "lol, I basically just killed myself." I'm sure Farseers will just ignore it.


Most important of all, the games were both fun and very close

...As played by Blackshirts taking 'cool' and 'fluffy' units instead of neckbeards throwing rocks at each other.


Please keep in mind that the above points are all second hand from my local GW manager, but he has no reason to lie to us...

Yes he does. Whether or not you believe him whole cloth is up to you.

[Tome]

Huh. I hope there's more to markerlights than that.

If we really are losing our ability to boost BS via markerlights, does this mean we can finally get some better BS on our veterans?

[Drasius]

Huh. I hope there's more to markerlights than that.

If we really are losing our ability to boost BS via markerlights, does this mean we can finally get some better BS on our veterans?

No, BS3 for everyone apparently. You can rr1's for 1 ML though (but you can't boost the rr's any firther than that. One would imagine you can still use seeker missiles at the cost of [x] ML's, though for how many I don't know since ignores cover isn't a thing anymore apparently. I'm still super surprised that they didn't got with the -1 cover for 1 or 2 ML's and be able to repeat ad nauseam like everyone has been asking for since 5 seconds after their 6th ed book.

As for Cheese, I'm not sure why you think our blackshirt would have a reason to lie to us. Every single one of us is hyped for 8th and everyone bar myself (I'm moving down south to keep Cheese company next week) is already slavering to put their pre-orders in for the rulbook and/or starter sets. We literally can't be anymore hyped than where we are at the moment and our sales are already assured yet none of us will be buying anything 40k related (beyond armageddon stuff) until 8th drops so I'm not seeing the point (but maybe I'm just being dense?).

[Theodoric]

As for Cheese, I'm not sure why you think our blackshirt would have a reason to lie to us. Every single one of us is hyped for 8th and everyone bar myself (I'm moving down south to keep Cheese company next week) is already slavering to put their pre-orders in for the rulbook and/or starter sets. We literally can't be anymore hyped than where we are at the moment and our sales are already assured yet none of us will be buying anything 40k related (beyond armageddon stuff) until 8th drops so I'm not seeing the point (but maybe I'm just being dense?).
Cheese plays in a hyper-competitive environment where doing anything sub-optimal results in defeat (so, he's not saying they're lying, just that they're not playing competitively). Think Mad Max but with miniatures. :smallwink: His idea of what's fun's maybe slightly different, though no less valid.

I personally can live with markerlights not boosting BS into the stratosphere. Things kind-of went a bit nuts in past edition, Tau already hit hard enough without them needing to be crack shots as well.

[Cheesegear]

As for Cheese, I'm not sure why you think our blackshirt would have a reason to lie to us.

Okay...'Lie' is the wrong word.
I believe that your Blackshirt believes what he's saying. My Blackshirt believes that Fyreslayers are worth buying - it doesn't mean he's right.

[Requizen]

Okay...'Lie' is the wrong word.
I believe that your Blackshirt believes what he's saying. My Blackshirt believes that Fyreslayers are worth buying - it doesn't mean he's right.

They are with the new points =)

Keep an eye on this post: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/27/warhammer-fest-live-blog/

Live blog from Warhammer World. Won't have everything I'm sure, will have to scour other blogs, but already has the Dataslates for most of the starter set models (Plague Marine boss looks dope, as does the Drone) and some pics.

[Drasius]

Cheese plays in a hyper-competitive environment where doing anything sub-optimal results in defeat (so, he's not saying they're lying, just that they're not playing competitively). Think Mad Max but with miniatures. :smallwink: His idea of what's fun's maybe slightly different, though no less valid.

I personally can live with markerlights not boosting BS into the stratosphere. Things kind-of went a bit nuts in past edition, Tau already hit hard enough without them needing to be crack shots as well.

My meta is about the same as Cheese's, I'm aware of this.

Not sure about how T'au Tau are going to shake out with the abillity to DS/outflank and charge, especially if interceptor is gone, doubly so if they're all BS3, even if the entire army can overwatch as often as it likes. The ability to retreat from combat and still fire is nigh irrelevant as given how killy everything is touted as being, I'm not sure there's going to be anything left to retreat. Still, waiting on points to make final judgement.


Okay...'Lie' is the wrong word.
I believe that your Blackshirt believes what he's saying. My Blackshirt believes that Fyreslayers are worth buying - it doesn't mean he's right.

Don't I recall you proving to him rather emphatically that they're not? Also: What they tell people who're thinking about buying stuff vs what they tell those of us who've been around a while and are already totally on board the hype train is two very different things (in my experience anyway). Having said that, our blackshirt does have some odd views on the power levels of various 40k armies, but then, he doesn't play 40k that much so the few of us who DO follow what's what just sort of roll our eyes when he tells us blatent lies his version of the meta.

My point is, even in scrub vs filthy casual games, not a single one ending in a tabling out of, what, 70-odd games is fairly noteworthy IMHO, especially since there's at least a few managers who I KNOW for fact are more than capable 40k players who were at that meeting and matching them vs casuals usually results in a turn 3 tabling on a bad day.

[Cheesegear]

Don't I recall you proving to him rather emphatically that they're not?

Well, yes. It doesn't mean he listened.


Having said that, our blackshirt does have some odd views on the power levels of various 40k armies, but then, he doesn't play 40k that much so the few of us who DO follow what's what just sort of roll our eyes when he tells us blatent lies his version of the meta.

...I have no words. It's what I would have said, but much nicer.
But basically, everytime my Blackshirt tells me something, I have to filter in much the same way.


My point is, even in scrub vs filthy casual games, not a single one ending in a tabling out of, what, 70-odd games is fairly noteworthy IMHO

Well, when you put it that way.

[LeSwordfish]

For what it's worth, my own Blackshirt definitely has "making a sale" mode and "talking to the regulars" mode.

[Requizen]

For what it's worth, my own Blackshirt definitely has "making a sale" mode and "talking to the regulars" mode.

As does mine. They're people, after all, and everybody talks differently to people they're just looking to sell to than they do people they consider friendly acquaintances or even friends.

[Blackhawk748]

*sigh* Oh look Nurgle cant have T5 anymore unless you take Plague Marines. Or they coulda just went back to what they where doing, which was to make the Mark just turn them into the Cult Marines, but thats to easy.

Anyway, Plaguewalkers look neat, except that save, my god is that save awful (its 7+ btw). The Contagion Lord is a brute, as he should be, and the Plaguemarines are, well Plague Marines. The Plague Knife is not impressive, the Sword is ok.

I find it weird that Plasma weapons are specifically on their upgrade list, but everything else is under the Special Weapons heading.

[Renegade Paladin]

On reflection, Drasius is right about ranged anti-armor, the Hellhound isn't going to do much to power armor anyway, and the quad-gun won't have flyers to shoot at. Revision:

2500 points

Tank Commander - 380
-Vanquisher commander (Warlord)
--Lascannon
--Kabe's Herald
-Executioner
--Plasma cannons

Primaris Psyker - 75
-Mastery Level 2

Ministorum Priest - 25

Enginseer - 60
-Two servitors

Infantry Platoon - 240
-Platoon Command Squad
--Vox-caster
--Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Infantry Squad
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon, flamer, melta bombs
-Infantry Squad
--Lascannon, flamer, power axe

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Veterans - 155
-Two meltaguns, heavy flamer
-Chimera - 65
--Heavy flamer

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 100
-Two plasma guns

Sly Marbo - 25

Ratlings - 30

Devil Dog - 145
-Multimelta

Tauros - 45
-Tauros grenade launcher

Leman Russ Squadron - 300
-Two Battle Tanks

Wyvern - 65

Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery - 75
-Earthshaker cannon

Aegis Defense Line - 50

Baneblade - 575
-Sponsons
Short version: The quad gun went to pay for upgrading the Hellhound to a multimelta Devil Dog and filled out the other 30 points with Ratlings because nothing else costs 30 points. Alternatively, I could drop the Ratlings and Tauros to put another lascannon/flamer squad into the blob.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Whoops, totally missed the Live Blog stuff.

Is that Gabriel Angelos in one of the pictures? A legit miniature and not some kind of fan conversion? Which book/supplement is he in?

I kind of like the new "plasma" mechanic. It's far more deadly when it goes wrong, but now there's a safe mode which is still pretty strong. Which makes more sense than arming your specialist gunners with things that can kill them (both in crunch and fluff).

I guess the Poxwalkers 7+ armor save is meant to mean they normally have none but can still benefit from the new cover system. That's an interesting way to format it.

Also Genestealer Cult Faction Focus.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/27/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-genestealer-cults/

They mention Cult Ambush, but it's unclear if that means keeping the current version verbatim. Seems to suggest that.

More Morale immunity shenanigans, courtesy of the Patriarch. Mass Hypnosis looks pretty fierce to lead into an assault, and even has applications when receiving one. Unquestioning Loyalty lets nearby minions give characters a 4+ save "to avoid taking a wound". I'm assuming that sequences the same as Disgustingly Resilient and a successful save kills said loyal minion.

You can take one Astra Militarum detachment per GSC detachment. That's interesting, but not too surprising.

Rockgrinder has some kind of 12" flamer, the possibility of demolition charges, and a pretty strong melee weapon. Without templates and scattering the only weakness of demo charges is their range (and the possibility of rolling low on shot number, but at S8 AP-3 Damage D3 is pretty alright).

[Renegade Paladin]

So, I read that lascannons are going to something like 48 points now. Makes me nervous; the majority of my heavy weapons teams are modeled with lascannons. Then again, the ability to split fire means I can sprinkle autocannons in there to save points and just shoot them at different things when faced with heavy armor.


You can take one Astra Militarum detachment per GSC detachment. That's interesting, but not too surprising.

That implies to me that Leman Russ hulls aren't a GSC option anymore, but we'll see.

[Blackhawk748]

So, I read that lascannons are going to something like 48 points now. Makes me nervous; the majority of my heavy weapons teams are modeled with lascannons. Then again, the ability to split fire means I can sprinkle autocannons in there to save points and just shoot them at different things when faced with heavy armor.

Ya, that seems really expensive to me. Im now concerned that my Mek Guns are going to get more expensive as well

[LeSwordfish]

Hopefully they'll have the sense to de-standardise the weapon costs, so BS4+ guardsmen don't pay the same amount for their heavy weapons as BS3+ Walking Tank primaris marines.

[boomwolf]

Take that blackshirt info dump with a huge pile of salt.
The main reason why I belive it's utter nonsense?
Tau markerlights take 5 to negate soft cover and 6 hard cover?
Forget the fact it's a silly number of lights per effect, 8th does not distinguish cover types!

[Blackhawk748]

Take that blackshirt info dump with a huge pile of salt.
The main reason why I belive it's utter nonsense?
Tau markerlights take 5 to negate soft cover and 6 hard cover?
Forget the fact it's a silly number of lights per effect, 8th does not distinguish cover types!

When i read that i went "So it takes an entire unit of Pathfinders to remove a +1 from cover? That feels insane"

Also while thinking about Ork's Plasma Weapons (Kustom Mega weapons) which have always been Str 8, im now kinda concerened that we wont be able to "turn off" Gets Hot and so ours will just always be on Super charged mode. Along this line of thought i just realized that a Marine now gets a 6+ save vs a Lascannon, which just feels wrong to me.

Edit: and while looking through my Ork Codex, i just realized that the bloody Marines have stolen Ork Dakkaguns and stuck them on their Interceptors. Knock it off you thieving bastards!!

[LeSwordfish]

Perhaps markerlights will no longer roll to hit?

[Blackhawk748]

Perhaps markerlights will no longer roll to hit?

They would almost have to in order to get those numbers, but then i ask: whats the point? I mean, you could have like 20 Pathfinders and eliminate cover on 4 units, or you could just have had more guns to shoot them in the first place. I know what my answer is.

[boomwolf]

Yep, it would render markerlights as utterly pointless.

But markerlights being pointless is possible, the fact he lists two different effects costing different marks-while the two different effects can't exist in 8th (because there is no "soft cover" and "hard cover", just "cover"), means that the entirety of what he said is suspicious.

One sentence of obvious wrongness in a pile puts everything under suspicion.

[lord_khaine]

Are we certain there is no such thing as soft or hard cover though? We have limited information on that subject. it could be there were more than 1 type of cover.

[Renegade Paladin]

All cover from craters to ruins that they've profiled so far has given +1 to the save. We haven't seen defense lines yet, though, so dedicated fortifications might be better.

[Drasius]

Steath and shrouded are still things, so it's entirely possible that's what he meant, but he's just framed it in armageddon terms because he's forgotten what they were called in 40k.

[Grim Portent]

New dreadnought chassis confirmed.
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740140_1923700444543459_4517142886070423677_n.jp g?oh=2e637e96605197466e60fa125c64357a&oe=59E76123


I actually really like it. It looks more practical than the conventional one, but looks more like other Imperial stuff than the Contemptor and it's relatives look.

[Brookshw]

New dreadnought chassis confirmed.
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740140_1923700444543459_4517142886070423677_n.jp g?oh=2e637e96605197466e60fa125c64357a&oe=59E76123


I actually really like it. It looks more practical than the conventional one, but looks more like other Imperial stuff than the Contemptor and it's relatives look.

Huh, yeah. That's pretty cool.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I especially like that the main body looks like the front of a (blocky) gunship, which definitely fits the imperial vibe. Also, the torso mounted guns make a lot of sense, and the legs make it look like it could actually walk (as opposed to the waddling I always imagined regular Dreadnoughts doing).

GW has convinced me to buy at least one nuMarine model, then, though it's definitely going to be treated as just a upgunned dreadnought from my "regular" marines and not one of these flashy numarines.

EDIT: AS far as weaponry goes, I'm seeing:
-The torso mounted guns, which seem like twin linked bolters (i'd be surprised if they were heavy bolters)
-The gatling gun mounted to the power fist. Miniature assault cannon, or is the rotor cannon making its debut in 40k?
-The power fist might have something concealed in the palm of the fist; it's kind of hard to tell but there could be an extra weapon (like a flamer or somesuch) there
-What appears to be an uber plasma cannon, which will probably be in line with what else we've seen from plasma (safe mode and turbo mode)
-Either smoke launchers or a loyalist havoc equivalent on top of the torso

I've always had a soft spot for plasma dreads, so hopefully this beasty will be worth its weight on the tabletop.

[Vaz]

For anyone not aware, Alan Bligh, Godfather of Astartes, has passed away. https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2017/05/27/alan-bligh/

Bit surprised about how genuinely saddened I am. He's been a hugely influential part in one of my favourite hobbies. He will be very sadly missed.

[JNAProductions]

People's thoughts on Power Levels?

[Cheesegear]

For anyone not aware, Alan Bligh, Godfather of Astartes, has passed away.

He wrote Badab War (IA 9 & 10), and the Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch RPGs.
I'm sure he did other things, but at the end of the day, the above are huge influences on what I know about 40K.
Well played, sir.


People's thoughts on Power Levels?

What is/are the best unit/s in the game? Oh. We don't know that.
What are the best units in the game's Power Levels? Oh. We don't know that.
How does the best unit's in the game's Power Level relate to other units' Power Levels? Oh. We don't know that.
Is the best unit in the game under costed or over costed? Oh. We don't know that.

Has GW gotten their Power scale right? Well, unless we can answer the above questions... Oh... Nevermind.

[JNAProductions]

So reserving judgement? Seems fair enough.

Okay, follow-up question. Do you think GW is gonna get hit the nail on the head, do it right, and have it be nice and equal? Or are they gonna screw it up?

[Cheesegear]

Okay, follow-up question. Do you think GW is gonna get hit the nail on the head, do it right, and have it be nice and equal? Or are they gonna screw it up?

I think GW is going to get it right in the beginning.
I think GW is inevitably going to release something slightly more powerful than the standard curve in order to push model sales.
I think that something will eventually be released - probably the aforementioned - that combos with something that it probably shouldn't that vastly disrupts the Power scale.
I think that combo will be 'Greater than the sum of its parts' and then the game will be broken.

[Vaz]

So 7th ed.

[Drasius]

People's thoughts on Power Levels?

Compare Thousand Sons Rubricae against Vanilla marines Inceptors. 5x T4, 1W, 5" move infantry models with 4x -2 rend bolters vs 3x T5, 2W 10" move jump pack models with 2x half range assault heavy bolters. Yes, the rubricae have a 5++ and might occassionally put an unsavable wound on something if the sorceror doesn't kill himself and half his squad, but considering that they're the same "power level", I think it's not the best indicator so far on a unit by unit basis. Hopefully it's just a minor case and it's just a case of Thousand Sons being trash tier like they have been for over a decade while the shiny new thing gets decent rules to drive sales, but we won't know for sure until we see more power levels to compare it to.


So reserving judgement? Seems fair enough.

Okay, follow-up question. Do you think GW is gonna get hit the nail on the head, do it right, and have it be nice and equal?

Not a chance. It'll be better than 7th, but you can put solid money on there being obviously strong units after a quick glance at the indecies and there will almost certainly be a bunch of net-lists out after the first couple of days. The real question you should be asking is how much better than 7th do we think it will be, because it surely can't get much worse. Hopefully handing an early pass over to Reece and friends will have knocked most of the major abuse on the head early so we only get the minor imbalances without any glaring issues like Eldar vs not-gladius or Tau vs DE, but who knows, a lot of it will be meta dependant for the first few weeks until people get their heads around it as it (generally) takes time for people to sort out buying, building and even occassionaly painting their stuff before they can dominate or stop their regular opponents from dominating with the new hotness.

Edit: Forgot what I came in here to post - I finally rolled an 18 on shriek today against a grimoured shaaneshi seekerbus and it was pretty rad. My thousand sons have made a total turnaround since Traitor legions came out, even when I haven't run a full cabal and even today when I rad a plain old CAD. I even had the joy of going before a slaaneshi herald as my Exalted sorc with warp speed up is I8. I must say, however that they've only faced mid-tier armies (or top tier armies built to mid-tier power levels), but they're certainly in a much better place than I initially pegged them at.

My IW however have continued their poor form with virtually no changes even after TL came out. They did however mulch another vanilla marine scout team in shadow war, even after a horror start where 1 guy was taken out before deplyment due to a bad roll on the promethium sprawl table and then I lost another to the monster in the scavenger mission before I had even moved a model. Luckily, not only did I then not lose anyone else, but I got an advance on my out of action gunner (rolled medic) and my leader picked up another wound while my team won, rolled a 5 for my d3 caches as well as picked up an additional cache too. Solid day all around for team chaos.

[boomwolf]

Well, it is supposed to be only a rough outline.

The inceptors cost 53 each, so a team is 159.
Divide by 8, you got 19.875 points per power level.


Other known factor, the hellblasters, 40 each power level 12. so we hit 16.666 point per power level.
It seems like 1 power level=roughly 16-20 points? seems about right?

The captain though, power level 7 and costs 148, so that's 21.143 points per power level.
So...power level and points so not translate all that easily. we got 4.46 points-per-power-level difference between our highest and our lowest example-and these might not be the biggest edge cases, as we've seen a really small number so far.
Its a VERY rough outline, one that should never be used to compare units if you know your stuff. 4.46 difference between current edge cases, rounding down to 4 means the rubric squad might cost 127 points fully equipped-and still be within power level logic.


And even if for some reason we are looking on pure power level, are rubrics as good as inceptors? not quite.
HOWEVER, a few missing factors:
Faction spells can really change the value of the sorcerer.
The icon of flame does something unknown, and power level assumes you took it. it might be something valuable.
The flamers are scary powerful when used properly, and the power level assumes you got those too.



TL;DR-Power level is a very rough estimate, not fully consistant, and we don't actually know everything the rubrics have yet.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

New dreadnought chassis confirmed.
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18740140_1923700444543459_4517142886070423677_n.jp g?oh=2e637e96605197466e60fa125c64357a&oe=59E76123


I actually really like it. It looks more practical than the conventional one, but looks more like other Imperial stuff than the Contemptor and it's relatives look.

I agree. It looks similar enough to the castraferrum to be recognized as having the same ancestry, but also different enough to stand out. The limb to body ratio looks about right, especially compared to the treasure chest with t-rex arms that is the standard dread. The redemptor has better looking hip joints too; the standard dread has them weirdly abducted.

[boomwolf]

I agree. It looks similar enough to the castraferrum to be recognized as having the same ancestry, but also different enough to stand out. The limb to body ratio looks about right, especially compared to the treasure chest with t-rex arms that is the standard dread. The redemptor has better looking hip joints too; the standard dread has them weirdly abducted.

Am I the only one seeing some of the Tau ghostkeel design in there? (the gun, the hips, shoulderguards shape sorta like a fire warrior)

I mean, practically everything Numarine reminds me of something tau.

[Tome]

Where else do you think Cawl is getting his ideas from?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Am I the only one seeing some of the Tau ghostkeel design in there? (the gun, the hips, shoulderguards shape sorta like a fire warrior)

I mean, practically everything Numarine reminds me of something tau.

*googles tau ghostkeel*

I'll meet you halfway and agree on the gun and the shoulders pads. But the rest of it, not really. It has the car-axle hips of the standard dread, unlike the ghostkeel which merge into its "pelvis" more organically. The ghostkeel is also closer to humanoid than even the Contemptor. The Redemptor is ultimately still a walking box, but at least it looks like it can walk without falling over. Between the "tank with legs" of the Imperium and the "oversized armor suit" of the Tau the Redemptor falls clearly into the Imperial camp.

In my view, the general Primaris aesthetic appears to be a bit cleaner and utilitarian than the pseudo-Gothic designs we're used to from the Imperium. I don't know if it has to do with the way the miniatures are painted, but the standard dreadnoughts tend to look perpetually battle damaged. Makes sense if these are meant to be new developments rather than stuff they forgot how to make 5,000 years ago. So the resemblance to Tau tech is there, in the sense that the Tau were deliberately designed to evoke perpetually advancing technology in stark contrast to the stagnating Imperium. Of course, GW can't help giving the Imperium new stuff anyway...

[lord_khaine]

I especially like that the main body looks like the front of a (blocky) gunship, which definitely fits the imperial vibe. Also, the torso mounted guns make a lot of sense, and the legs make it look like it could actually walk (as opposed to the waddling I always imagined regular Dreadnoughts doing).

Funny story, they had to slightly adjust the Dreadnoughts in Dawn of war to make them able to walk :P

[Drasius]

Well, it is supposed to be only a rough outline.

The inceptors cost 53 each, so a team is 159.
Divide by 8, you got 19.875 points per power level.


Other known factor, the hellblasters, 40 each power level 12. so we hit 16.666 point per power level.
It seems like 1 power level=roughly 16-20 points? seems about right?

The captain though, power level 7 and costs 148, so that's 21.143 points per power level.
So...power level and points so not translate all that easily. we got 4.46 points-per-power-level difference between our highest and our lowest example-and these might not be the biggest edge cases, as we've seen a really small number so far.
Its a VERY rough outline, one that should never be used to compare units if you know your stuff. 4.46 difference between current edge cases, rounding down to 4 means the rubric squad might cost 127 points fully equipped-and still be within power level logic.


And even if for some reason we are looking on pure power level, are rubrics as good as inceptors? not quite.
HOWEVER, a few missing factors:
Faction spells can really change the value of the sorcerer.
The icon of flame does something unknown, and power level assumes you took it. it might be something valuable.
The flamers are scary powerful when used properly, and the power level assumes you got those too.



TL;DR-Power level is a very rough estimate, not fully consistant, and we don't actually know everything the rubrics have yet.

Word is (from my blackshirt) that the Aspiring sorceror doesn't get factions spells, though he does admit that there could be something he didn't spot if certain conditions are met that gives it to them, though from what he saw, there IS a way to power up their smite back to full power (not saying much), either through a special character (read: Ahriman) or, and this is my supposition too, via having all models in your army have the Thousand Sons chapter legion keyword.

Speaking of Chapter Keyword - Another tidbit is that apparently bonii from an Ultramarine Commander (ie the rr1's aura) doesn't affect models with the (for example) Imperial Fists Keyword, though apparently you CAN choose to make every unit in your army have a different chapter/legion/klan/hive fleet/craftworld/regiment/[whatever] should you so choose. Hopefully this is true as I always felt that while you could reasonably expect an Imperial Fist and a Raven Guard to work together if required, they certainly wouldn't be well enough versed in each others tactical subtleties to make use of their specific rites and chapter specific way of warfare, much like how it didn't make sense to have Azrael always kicking around with his 50 guard besties instead of terminators/honour guard from the DA elite.

The issue with having a power level of 16-20 points per power level is that there's a huge, HUGE difference between them. 20 points per power level is a full 25% MORE than 16 point per. Now, granted, that only means anything worth a damn if the points are balanced in the first place, but how would you feel if your opponent got 25% more points than you for a game? Spoiler - It already happened in 7.5 with war convo and gladius and neither were even remotely fair even though most of their "free points" were trashy overpriced junk that you'd never take in a million years normally. In an edition that's meant to actually be remotely balanced, I'm fairly sure that if one side gets ~25% more points than the other, the outcome is such a foregone conclusion that the "game" isn't worth playing because it's incredibly obvious who it going to faceroll with no real recourse beyond weighted dice or acts of god/s, sometimes not even then.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm still hyped for 8th (even though I am almost certain I'm going to be disapointed, true to the saying we all know and love), but open play/narrative/power levels are a complete and utter waste of time for the vast majority of the 40k community, and for the folks who DO play those style of games, I'd wager that most of them already have enough of an idea on how to balance (or imbalance depending on scenario) a narrative game that they don't need the GW "balance" system anyway. The handful of people I know who actually play narrative in AoS use the points system to balance their forces and simply throw out whatever they call their force org chart and since they're all on the same wavelength about running narrative events, it works for them.

[lord_khaine]

Speaking of Chapter Keyword - Another tidbit is that apparently bonii from an Ultramarine Commander (ie the rr1's aura) doesn't affect models with the (for example) Imperial Fists Keyword, though apparently you CAN choose to make every unit in your army have a different chapter/legion/klan/hive fleet/craftworld/regiment/[whatever] should you so choose. Hopefully this is true as I always felt that while you could reasonably expect an Imperial Fist and a Raven Guard to work together if required, they certainly wouldn't be well enough versed in each others tactical subtleties to make use of their specific rites and chapter specific way of warfare, much like how it didn't make sense to have Azrael always kicking around with his 50 guard besties instead of terminators/honour guard from the DA elite.

That is the most reasonable changes in the entire edition. If those Aura bonues can be made selective though keywords then they do have the option to make them much more interesting as well.

[thedavo]

WarhammerFest 40k tournament results:

1 - Eldar
2 - Eldar
3 - Marines
4 = Space Wolves
4 = Chaos Marines
4 = Orks
4 = Daemons

Don't know the rest of the top 10, but nice to see a decent mix outside the top 3.

[boomwolf]

WarhammerFest 40k tournament results:

1 - Eldar
2 - Eldar
3 - Marines
4 = Space Wolves
4 = Chaos Marines
4 = Orks
4 = Daemons

Don't know the rest of the top 10, but nice to see a decent mix outside the top 3.


Wonna bet people will still cry tau are OP, despite even orks beating them? (seriously though, that one requires an explanation XD)

[Requizen]

WarhammerFest 40k tournament results:

1 - Eldar
2 - Eldar
3 - Marines
4 = Space Wolves
4 = Chaos Marines
4 = Orks
4 = Daemons

Don't know the rest of the top 10, but nice to see a decent mix outside the top 3.

Was that 7th or 8th?

[Grim Portent]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/18698273_1335303279916694_5056122123047330716_n.jp g?oh=7388b19cd3dfe488e9fe21768858eebe&oe=599CB5FB

That Redemptor Dread is huge. :smalleek:

I think that it might be about the size of a FW Leviathan dread or bigger.

[Blackhawk748]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/18698273_1335303279916694_5056122123047330716_n.jp g?oh=7388b19cd3dfe488e9fe21768858eebe&oe=599CB5FB

That Redemptor Dread is huge. :smalleek:

I think that it might be about the size of a FW Leviathan dread or bigger.

Holy crap that thing is massive. Like, i think its almost as tall as a Dreadknight

[Bobby Baratheon]

I'm digging that size. It would make for a nice, intimidating centerpiece for my marines along with my now hopefully relevant land raiders. It also would cool to use it to designate an extra special dreadnought.

"This isn't one of those new-fangled Primaris dreadnoughts, no sir. This is our <insert number> Chapter Master, to whom we gave an extra awesome Dreadnought shell."

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, got that game in. His list wasn't quite as advertised after some revision; he was running a multi-Dreadnought list that gave me points for blowing up Dreadnoughts, a Land Raider containing a Master of the Forge Terminator equivalent and a Legion Praetorian in Terminator armor, some outflanking Tactical Marines of some kind, a bunch of footslogging Terminators, and a footslogging tactical squad.

The mission was a zone control based one, where your deployment zone was worth 5 points, no man's land worth 6, and the enemy deployment zone worth 7 if you had scoring units in it and the other guy did not. So he basically had to come to me.

It went how you might expect. I spent three turns bombarding the hell out of the advancing Marines, and he kind of fizzled when he reached my line. Even with my forgetting to roll for Reserves on turn 3 with four units still in reserve, he never really had a chance. I felt kind of bad about it. The only point he got was Slay the Warlord on a last-turn Dreadnought/Praetorian charge on my tank commander, and I wound up with three from Last Man Standing and killing two of the five Dreadnoughts. (That Invulnerable save on Contemptors is a pain.)

[Drasius]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/18698273_1335303279916694_5056122123047330716_n.jp g?oh=7388b19cd3dfe488e9fe21768858eebe&oe=599CB5FB

That Redemptor Dread is huge. :smalleek:

I think that it might be about the size of a FW Leviathan dread or bigger.

Wow, I didn't think it was possible to like the new dread even less, but not only is it apparently comically oversized, it also looks even worse with the different weapons. Good job GW!

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Wow. When you put it next to another dread it really does look huge. Nothing mini about that miniature lol.

That probably means a proportional price tag too huh

[Wraith]

Funny story, they had to slightly adjust the Dreadnoughts in Dawn of war to make them able to walk :P

Oh yeah, I remember that. They 3D scanned one of the older metal Dreadnoughts and compiled it in the game, but the physics engine took one look at it and pretty much imploded. I'm pretty sure it led to a redesign of actual miniatures in the future because of it; GW aren't much for "reality" in their games, but for some reason they decided that Dreadnoughts ought to be mechanically viable. :smalltongue:

As for the new Primaris Dreadnought - I like the heroic size of the thing, but I think it looks very plain. I know the Primaris Marines in general are all about smooth lines and flat plates, but I think I preferred to have some of the baroque detail and filigree of the older ones; especially the Ancient Dreadnoughts with all their finery (http://imgur.com/a/IdvUo) to mark them out as special.

[Blackhawk748]

Personally im a fan of the Pimp-Noght (https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0269/41/1377988445571.jpg)

[Theodoric]

As for the new Primaris Dreadnought - I like the heroic size of the thing, but I think it looks very plain. I know the Primaris Marines in general are all about smooth lines and flat plates, but I think I preferred to have some of the baroque detail and filigree of the older ones; especially the Ancient Dreadnoughts with all their finery (http://imgur.com/a/IdvUo) to mark them out as special.
Kind-of the downside of Primaris, they haven't been around for long enough to accumulate enough bling to get Venerable status. Though I don't quite see how Primarines Marines stand out as far as having smooth lines and flat plates; most vanilla marine models have that too.

[Drasius]

Some very interesting points changes here, though we still don't know the full story since wargear costs aren't included.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z3pSb3QC94U/WSvb_t9ZZvI/AAAAAAABQFk/OVmaA0f-t7wVD4bw0-D-7j9I72g4PTu2wCLcB/s1600/u1bKDg5g.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6I7BTDx1fYQ/WSvb_DBDR3I/AAAAAAABQFM/ydqJGqXADkUJSLq2ViRN0S1gMzsQzaxRgCLcB/s1600/VE6yIygg.jpg

[thedavo]

Wonna bet people will still cry tau are OP, despite even orks beating them? (seriously though, that one requires an explanation XD)

The Ork player is one of the guys from my club. We have a saying: "Never play (Ork Player) at a game of dice". He's good at games in general, and generally rolls well. He ran the Ork Mek list from IA. His only loss was when he conceded in turn 1 against a massively cheesy Eldar list he couldn't be bothered to play. Otherwise he might have won the whole thing.

The "Chaos Marines" list was Magnus and 3 Daemon Princes.

There was also a Tau guy who turned up with TWO supremacy suits.

Requizen - was a 7th Ed tournament.

[Brookshw]

Some very interesting points changes here, though we still don't know the full story since wargear costs aren't included.


That's a nasty Explodes rule on that land raider!

[Renegade Paladin]

That's a nasty Explodes rule on that land raider!

Yeah. It remains to be seen if that's the standard or if it gets a nastier one because of daemonic possession.

[Blackhawk748]

Some very interesting points changes here, though we still don't know the full story since wargear costs aren't included.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z3pSb3QC94U/WSvb_t9ZZvI/AAAAAAABQFk/OVmaA0f-t7wVD4bw0-D-7j9I72g4PTu2wCLcB/s1600/u1bKDg5g.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6I7BTDx1fYQ/WSvb_DBDR3I/AAAAAAABQFM/ydqJGqXADkUJSLq2ViRN0S1gMzsQzaxRgCLcB/s1600/VE6yIygg.jpg

Huh, Land Raiders have 16 wounds. Glad to see the Orkanaught are tougher in that respect.

[Drasius]

Huh, Land Raiders have 16 wounds. Glad to see the Orkanaught are tougher in that respect.

Land Raiders have a 2+ though vs a 3+ on the orkanaughts, so it's relative to what weapon you're using as to who is tougher.

[Blackhawk748]

Land Raiders have a 2+ though vs a 3+ on the orkanaughts, so it's relative to what weapon you're using as to who is tougher.

Of course, this does seem to confirm my suspicion that Ork vehicles will be more durable wound wise than their other counterparts.

[Drasius]

SoB leaks:

Acts of Faith
Hand of the Emperor: The unit can immediately move as if it were the Movement phase.
Divine Guidance: The unit can immediately shoot as if it were the Shooting phase.
The Passion: The unit can, if it is within 1" of an enemy unit, immediately pile in and attack as if it were the Fight phase.
Spirit of the Martyr: One model in the unit recovers D3 lost wounds, or you can return a single slain model to the unit with 1 wound remaining.

Points costs:
Arco 15
Battle Sisters 9
Canoness 45
Celestian 11
Crusaders 11
Death Cult 17
Dialogus 15
Dominion 10
Exorcist 160
Hospitaller 30
Imagifier 40
Immolator 68
Priest 35
Mistress of Repentance 35
Penitent Engine 55
Repentia 17
Retributor 9
Seraphim 11
Sororitas Rhino 73

Celestine 150
-Geminae Superia 50each
Uriah Jacobus 100

Melee weapons, if weapon isn't mentioned it's points cost is 0
Eviscerator 22
Neural Whips 3
Penitent buzz-blades 40
Power axe 5
Power Maul 4
Power Sword 4

Ranged Weapons, if weapon isn't mentioned it's points cost is 0
Combi - flamer 11 melta 19 plasma 15
Condemnor boltgun 1 - Same as a regular bolter but D3 damage vs psykers
Flamer 9
Hand Flamer 6
Heavy Bolter 10
Heavy Fmaler 17
Hunter killer missile 6
Immolation Flamer 35
Inferno pistol 12
Meltagun 17
Plasma gun 13 pistol 7
Storm Bolter 4
Twin Heavy bolter 17
Twin multi-melta 54

Shield of Faith: 6+ Inv save and can deny one psychic power in each
enemy psychic phase in the same manner as a psyker but on D6 instead of 2D6.

Zealot: re-roll failed to hit rolls in a turn which the unit charged,
made a heroic intervention or was charged by an enemy unit.

Uriah Jacobus
4++
Banner of Sanctity: +1Ld to ministorum and AM units within 6"

All Priests
4++
M6"
War Hymns: You can add 1 to the Attack characteristics of all friendly Ministorum and astra militarum infantry within 6" of any friendly ministorum priest.

Crusaders
M6" WS3 S3 A2
Zealot
Acts of Faith

Death Cult Assassins
M7" WS3 S4 A4
5+ 5++
Zealot
Death Cult Power blades are AP -2

Arco-Flagellants
M7" WS3 S4 A2
7+ 5++
Zealot
Arco flails: +1S and D3 attacks instead of 1

Penitent Engine
M7" WS3 S5 T6 W7 A4 Ld8 4+
Zealot
Desperate for Redemption: Roll a D6 after completing the first set of
attacks for units of Penitent Engines in each Fight phase. On a roll of
4+, the unit can immediately pile in and attack for a second time.
Penitent Buzz-Blades S2x Ap-3 Damage 3

Celestine
12" 2+2+3+3+7 6 9 2+ 4++
Beacon of Faith: +1 Shield of Faith Inv 6" bubble, Astra militarum and ministorum gain 6+ inv save.
The Armour of Saint Katherine: 4++ for her and Geminae
Saintly Blessings: Unit within 6" can perform an Act of Faith.
Healing Tears: Resurrect 1 geminae at start of each movement phase
Miraculous Intervention: Resurrection of Celestine once per game with full wounds.

Canoness
6" 2+ 2+ 3 3 5 4 9 3+4++
Now has Rosarius as standard
Lead the Righteous mentioned above
Can't take jump pack

Imagifier
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 4 3 8 3+
AoF, SoF (Shield of Faith)
Simulacrum Imperialis: D6 start of turn on 4+ unit within 6" can perform Act of Faith

Hospitaller
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 4 2 8 3+
Chirurgeons tools S user -1AP
Aof, SoF
Healer: End of movement. Adepta Sororitas Infantry unit within 3", roll D6. On 4+ one model recovers D3 lost wounds (IG medipack recovers 1 wound), if no wounded 1 slain model can be returned to the unit with 1 wound. A unit can only be targeted once per turn.

Dialogus
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 4 2 8 6+
Dialogus staff +1S -1To Hit
6" Adepta Sororitas re-roll morale bubble

Battle Sisters
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
2 special or 1 special 1 heavy per unit

Seraphim
12" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
Same as before

Celestian
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 2 8 3+
2 special or 1 special 1 heavy per UNIT
Bodyguard: Character within 3" transfers a wound to unit on 2+, this wound becomes a Mortal Wound

Mistress of Repentance
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 4 3 8 3+
Neural Whips S User, -2AP Damage1 Add 1 to the wound rolls for attacks made with this weapon if the target unit's highest LD is less than 8 excluding vehicles.
Driven Onwards: re-roll advance, charge and hit rolls for friendly Repentia within 6" of this model.

Repentia Squad
6" 3+ 3+ 3 3 1 2 8 7+
Penitent Eviscerator SX2 -2AP Damage 2 -1 To Hit
Aof, SoF

Retributor Squad
6" 4+ 3+ 3 3 1 1 7 3+
Same as before, max 4 heavy weapons per unit
Aof, SoF

Dominion: 5 + 4 for 5 more models
Same as above but 4 special weapons
AoF, SoF
Vanguard: After deployment, before first turn, move as in movement phase. If all models inside transport has this rule then transport may move instead.

Rhino and Immolator
T7 W10

Exorcist
T8 W12

[LeSwordfish]

I like that new Machine Spirit rule - makes Land Raiders pretty effective as transports now, since they can fire all their weapons on the move.

[Renegade Paladin]

Leman Russes have a 3+ save if I'm not mistaken, which leads me to guess 2+ vehicles will be rare if 14/14/14 is what it takes to translate into that.

Edit: Space Marine faction focus. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/29/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marines/) The big news is that grav has been toned down; S5, AP -3, 1 damage. Damage increases to d3 if the target has 3+ or better save. (This raises a question; since cover increases Sv, does being in cover increase the damage you take from grav?) Predators are T7, 11W, though they didn't show the profile so we don't know how damage degrades them.

[Blackhawk748]

So how do we activate the AoF? Cuz thats rather important, also im not impressed by the Repetnia, cuz there is no reason why an Eviscerator should be AP -2 instead of AP -3, cuz they've always basically been Power Fists.

Wow, Multi Meltas got expensive, no more free swaps for us. Also, Power weapons are freakin cheap.

Oh my god, can non-priests finally take Plasma weapons?

Hospitallier is amazing btw

[Renegade Paladin]

So how do we activate the AoF? Cuz thats rather important, also im not impressed by the Repetnia, cuz there is no reason why an Eviscerator should be AP -2 instead of AP -3, cuz they've always basically been Power Fists.

Wow, Multi Meltas got expensive, no more free swaps for us. Also, Power weapons are freakin cheap.

Oh my god, can non-priests finally take Plasma weapons?

Hospitallier is amazing btw
Where have you seen Sisters leaks? Also, they said a few weeks ago that multimeltas are the most expensive upgrade a Marine tactical squad can take, at 27 points, so them being expensive across the board is no surprise.

[Blackhawk748]

Where have you seen Sisters leaks? Also, they said a few weeks ago that multimeltas are the most expensive upgrade a Marine tactical squad can take, at 27 points, so them being expensive across the board is no surprise.

Drasius posted them literally 3 posts above you, not sure where he got them from. And im not surprised that it happened (i kinda am but meh) im just used to Immolaters having a free weapon swap.

[Renegade Paladin]

Oh. I somehow missed that. When I come to the thread I use the "Go to First New Post" button, and it never popped to that one; it seems to have gotten marked as read somehow. Sorry.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Grav still looks pretty nasty, and it will still eff up vehicles when fired en mass (though not nearly as much as before). It seems like 3+ is fairly standard among the reasonably tough vehicles, so grav will be getting 4 S5 shots that reduce said save to a 6+, and each of those attacks will be doing d3 damage.

Assuming T8 and 3+ save for all targets

The grav cannon gets 4 shots at 3+ BS = 2.668 hits. Each hit wounds on a 5+, so .891 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .743 wounds actually go through. Each wound deals d3 damage, so that ends up being an average of 1.485 wounds per shooting phase (for one weapon).

If you get lucky on the to wound rolls (which could massively increase the potential wounds), grav devastators could outright erase vehicles in one salvo. Each single wound that goes through is actually going to do 2 damage on average (provided target has a 3+, and targets like that abound in most armies with the new vehicles rules), so with 4 devs armed with grav cannons this could be extremely dangerous to special characters or vehicles.

Compare to a heavy bolter (which is quite a bit lower on the food chain, but still).
3 shots at 3+ BS = 2 hits. Each hit wounds on a 5+, so .668 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 4+, so .334 wounds actually go through, dealing 1 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: .334.

Heavy Flamer (I inferred the stats for this one based on the normal flamer they showed us)
3.5 average hits, which wound on a 5+, so 1.169 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 4+, so .585 wounds actually go through, dealing 1 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: .585.

Plasma gun (on normal mode)
2 shots at 3+ BS = 1.334 hits. Each hit wounds on a 5+, so .446 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .372 wounds actually go through, dealing 1 damage each. Of course, you'll probably want turbo mode for vehicles. Average damage per shooting phase: .372.

Plasma gun (on turbo mode)
2 shots at 3+ BS = 1.334 hits. Each hit wounds on a 4+, so .667 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .556 wounds actually go through, dealing 2 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: 1.111.

Lascannon
1 shot at 3+ BS = .667 hits. Each hit wounds on a 3+, so .445 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .371 wounds actually go through, dealing 3.5 average damage each, leading to an average damage per shooting phase of 1.30.

Plasma Cannon
Average of 2 (D3) shots at 3+ BS = 1.334 hits. Each hit wounds on a 5+, so .446 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .371 wounds actually go through, dealing 1 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: .371.

Turbocharged Plasma Cannon
Average of 2 (D3) shots at 3+ BS = 1.334 hits. Each hit wounds on a 4+, so .667 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 6+, so .556 wounds actually go through, dealing 2 damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: 1.111.

Meltagun
1 shot at 3+ BS = .667 hits. Each hits wounds on a 4+, so .334 wounds. These wounds are saved on nothing (suck it, vehicles), so .334 wounds go through, dealing 3.5 average damage each or 7 average damage each if within half range. Average damage per shooting phase: 1.17 if farther than 6" away, 2.334 if 6" or closer.

Multimelta
Same as meltagun; only difference is range is doubled (Surprise, surprise).

Missile Launcher (assuming krak)
1 shot at 3+ BS = .667 hits. Each hit wounds on a 4+, so .334 wounds. These wounds are saved on a 5+, so .223 wounds go through, dealing 3.5 average damage each. Average damage per shooting phase: .780.

Of course, grav weapons could still be extremely expensive weapons, which would potentially compensate for their impressive destructive potential. Atm, though, it seems like they are still better at anti-MEQ and better at vehicle popping than anything else. The Lascannons seeming two saving graces are the 48" range and the potential for really devastating single shots (even more so than the grav cannon).

My (primitive) power rankings for antivehicle (again, assuming T8 and 3+) from the classic Space Marine special/heavy weapons are:
(Note: w/sp = wounds/shooting phase)
Melta/Multimelta in <half range: 2.334 w/sp (17/27 points)
Grav cannon: 1.485 w/sp (28 points)
Lascannon: 1.30 w/sp (25 points)
Melta/Multimelta in >half range: 1.17 w/sp (see above)
Turbo Plasma Gun: 1.111 w/sp (13 points)
Turbo Plasma Cannon: 1.111 w/sp (21 points)
Missile Launcher: .780 w/sp (25 points)
Heavy Flamer: .585 w/sp (17 points)
Regular Plasma Gun: .372 w/sp (see above)
Regular Plasma Cannon: .371 w/sp (see above)
Heavy Bolter: .334 w/sp (10 points)

This doesn't take into account range, weapon type or how effective these weapons are against T7 or T6 vehicles (thought the only weapons that would really change for those two are the two plasma modes, which would become more effective; regular plasma in particular should be much better against T7 and T6).

As far as points go, the missile launchers seem to be drastically overpriced. Frag missiles aren't all that good (d6 S4 hits. Woo) and krak missiles straight up suck for how much you're paying. The big three (lascannons, grav cannons and both meltas) seem right-ish in points cost, though the Grav cannon should probably cost most considering it is far better at wasting infantry than either of the other two. Plasma cannons suck hard against T8, but it seems they will do just fine against T7 and below, so I think its just a matter of niche rather than that plasma weapons are terrible. Plasma cannons are a little overpriced, though, and they are only marginally better than plasma guns (range and slightly higher number of potential hits), though the calculations do assume rapid fire range for the plasma guns. The nerfing of Gets Hot helps as well, especially against T6 and below. Unsurprisingly, suicide melta squads are still pretty damn effective and are (IMO) the top dog. With decent rolling, you will do far more than 2.334 damage per melta, and the only thing really keeping it in check is that meltas only wound T8 vehicles on 4's now, with their previous bonus to penetrate armor now represented in damage. Multimeltas are a bit too pricey for what they bring - just get lascannons and pop them from across the board.

I eagerly await spamming plasma like never before.

[Renegade Paladin]

Faeit 212 has those Sisters rumors (http://natfka.blogspot.de/2017/05/8th-ed-sisters-of-battle-revealed.html?m=1), with a bit more than Drasius posted (including how to activate Acts of Faith). Take with salt.

[Blackhawk748]

Funnily enough the Orks will probably have a bunch of 4+ armor vehicles, so the at least arent allergic to Grav :smalltongue:


@ Sisters leaks: That activation system is utter and complete gak And the Acts themselves are not impressive at all.


Acts of Faith
Roll a D6 at the start of each of your turns. On a roll of 2+, one unit
from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform an Act of
Faith chosen from the following list. Some abilities may allow you to use
more than on Act of Faith in the same turn; when this is the case, a
different unit must be chosen to perform each Act of Faith.

On a slight plus side, we can get Imagifiers to let us use more than one per turn...on a 4+. This is stupid.

Continuing the stupidity is that the Penitent Engine costs more than a Dreadnaught, even though the Dred has guns and better stats.

And i just realized that Sisters are only allowed 2 alternate weapons per unit, not the usual scaling. So lame.

[Tome]

Yeah, those Sisters leaks seem very disappointing. Fortunately they aren't accompanied by images so we can still hope they're bull.

Disappointing to hear that Grav is still king.

[Voidhawk]

Full photo leak (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334013-full-leaked-blood-angels-rules-other-space-marine-prices/?p=4759699)of all Blood Angels datasheets, and all Space Marine stats and points costs.
A Rhino is 70pts. A Drop-pod is 103pts. Hot damn.
EDIT: If you're a Successor Chapter, you can't use any named characters. Is this the first time GW has tagged rules to paint schemes? This is going to be the most ignored rule they ever written.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, those Sisters leaks seem very disappointing. Fortunately they aren't accompanied by images so we can still hope they're bull.

Disappointing to hear that Grav is still king.

The comments are freakin stupid too. They're all like "Why are you saying AoF suck? Its basically the Ynead thing on a 4+ instead of when a unit dies, and everyone said that was OP"

I have never heard anyone say that Ynead was OP and they seem to forget that Sisters are basically a freakin Horde army, so you'd need like 10 Imagifiers to cover you entire army. So freakin dumb, i hope its wrong.

[Renegade Paladin]

Full photo leak (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334013-full-leaked-blood-angels-rules-other-space-marine-prices/?p=4759699)of all Blood Angels datasheets, and all Space Marine stats and points costs.
A Rhino is 70pts. A Drop-pod is 103pts. Hot damn.
EDIT: If you're a Successor Chapter, you can't use any named characters. Is this the first time GW has tagged rules to paint schemes? This is going to be the most ignored rule they ever written.

Hey, Whirlwind launchers actually do stuff now!

[Bobby Baratheon]

Also of note is the fact that Razorbacks are 5 points cheaper than Rhinos. Barring some advantage for Rhinos other than the extra 5 transport spots, expect to see more Razorbacks with 5 man squads now that all transports are assault vehicles and even heavy bolter Razorbacks can contribute meaningfully.

Also, now I can factor in meltaguns, multimeltas, plasma cannons and missile launchers into my calculations from a few posts back.

EDIT: They are now included, along with the points cost for each weapon. At some point I'll include the other frequently seen weapons (autocannons, etc) as well as wounds per shooting phase per point for each weapon, and maybe look at how each does against T7 and T6 vehicles.

Interestingly, loyalists get Reaper Autocannons now. Was this a thing previously?

[Adrastos42]

Hey, Whirlwind launchers actually do stuff now!

And predator autocannons, too!

[LeSwordfish]

If you can charge from Drop Pods, damn straight they should be triple the price.

[Bobby Baratheon]

And predator autocannons, too!

Predator autocannons doing 3 damage feels like a big deal. . . That's potentially really deadly for light to medium vehicles and MC's.

Also of note, the assault cannons have exchanged Rending for an additional two shots, which is a decent tradeoff in this edition where everything has pseudo-rending. Twin linked assault cannons seem like a decent bargain at 35 points, as you're getting 12 (!) S6 shots with -1 AP, which has a lot of potential for destroying infantry and vehicles alike, as you're going to wound anything T11 and below on 5's and anything T5 or below on 3's, which seems like a good place to be. I might have to pick up a few tl assault cannon turrets for my razorbacks.

On another note, LR Crusaders seem positively murderous now. At 12", they get 24 bolter (28 if you get the storm bolter) shots and 12 assault cannon shots, and 2d6 frag cannon shots. Considering that all the weapons can fire at different targets and that land raiders can move and shoot without penalty, a multimelta would be a good pickup as well, as you can use your hurricane bolters/frag cannons to annihilate infantry while using the multimelta and the tl assault cannon to put the hurt on vehicles. The frag cannon has the same S and Ap as the assault cannon (and auto-hits), so it could also potentially help kill vehicles through volume of attacks.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also of note is the fact that Razorbacks are 5 points cheaper than Rhinos. Barring some advantage for Rhinos other than the extra 5 transport spots, expect to see more Razorbacks with 5 man squads now that all transports are assault vehicles and even heavy bolter Razorbacks can contribute meaningfully.

Those points costs do not include wargear. You pay 65 points for the Razorback hull and then I imagine must buy a heavy weapon for the listed points cost. In the final calculation, the Razorback isn't going to be cheaper; for instance that heavy bolter Razorback is going to be 82 points after buying the twin heavy bolter.

Edit: Speaking of wargear points, the Predator autocannon is only one point less than a twin-linked lascannon.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Those points costs do not include wargear. You pay 65 points for the Razorback hull and then I imagine must buy a heavy weapon for the listed points cost. In the final calculation, the Razorback isn't going to be cheaper; for instance that heavy bolter Razorback is going to be 82 points after buying the twin heavy bolter.

Edit: Speaking of wargear points, the Predator autocannon is only one point less than a twin-linked lascannon.

True - I missed that. However, 12 points for a tl heavy bolter seems a very fair trade over a rhino if you were already going to use 5 man squads, and some of the other potential weapons for Razorbacks (lascannons, assault cannons, etc) seem to be pretty killy for their cost. Razorbacks aren't going to be cheap, I guess, but they seem like a decent way to up your dakka for a reasonable price (especially if they're T7/8 wounds like the Rhino).

[Blackhawk748]

Am i the only one finding the points cost on Wargear weird? There seems a lot of not base 5.

[LansXero]

Whats weird is that they haven't announced an Army Builder, which seems like it will be very, very useful with all these finicky points costs.

[Voidhawk]

Full Tau leaks. (http://imgur.com/a/BdEhR) Though the photos are rather low quality.

[Renegade Paladin]

So going through the BA leaks and adding points values, Terminators are back to being really expensive, even more than they were in 5th. Base cost for 5 Terminator bodies, 5 storm bolters, 4 power fists, and a power sword on the sergeant (bare bones as it is now) goes 224 points. A Predator with a single autocannon goes for 151 before sponsons. I believe we've found their method for getting 1500 point games to average about 90 minutes; just make everything cost so much that the armies are significantly smaller. :smallannoyed:

[Requizen]

Sieze the Initiative is officially back in as is random turn length. Two things that don't precisely break the game, but are annoying as heck.

[Wraith]

EDIT: If you're a Successor Chapter, you can't use any named characters. Is this the first time GW has tagged rules to paint schemes? This is going to be the most ignored rule they ever written.

They.... kind of did this in 6th, although they approached it from the other way and gave you a caveat to ignore it. Before the Chapter Tactics of 7th were introduced, what Space Marine Chapter was defined by what Special Character you took; if you took Calgar, you were granted his Special Abilities and were by extension playing Ultramarines, if you took Pedro Kantor you got his Special Abilities and thus were nominally playing Crimson Fists, because those characters HAD to be your Warlord.

Unfortunately, this was in the same book that ALSO said "feel free to paint your models however you want and rename these characters to suit yourself, there's enough Chapters in the Imperium that some overlap between equipment and special skills is going to be inevitable", so the amount of multi-coloured Pedro Kantors, in particular, stick out on my memory as being A Thing for quite a while.

But, yeah. GW wanted you to get stuck with Character + Rules = Paint Scheme, but they didn't try very hard at it and almost no one capitulated, especially with the Codex: Space Marines book. The two Angels of Death books were generally treated with a bit more cooperation in that regard, but only because it was harder to disguise a specific non-Codex Army List (ie, Death Company or Ravenwing) as a customised Chapter.

[Drasius]

So going through the BA leaks and adding points values, Terminators are back to being really expensive, even more than they were in 5th. Base cost for 5 Terminator bodies, 5 storm bolters, 4 power fists, and a power sword on the sergeant (bare bones as it is now) goes 224 points. A Predator with a single autocannon goes for 151 before sponsons. I believe we've found their method for getting 1500 point games to average about 90 minutes; just make everything cost so much that the armies are significantly smaller. :smallannoyed:

Then just play larger games if you're unhappy with a "small" army? The constant points reductions has meant that a 1500 game has gone from 20 marines, a tank and a character to 60 marines, 12 transports, 15 scouts and 2 characters and possibly a few other sundries as well. While putting lots of models on the table is nice, I think we have to accept that the more models you put on the table, the longer it takes to play as that's a fairly basic sort of thing. Who knows, maybe the "standard" points level will rise to 2k or even 2500 is people want to use the same amount of models as now. Hell, the "standard" points for 30k is 2.5 - 3k, so why not have a different points "standard" for 40k? Every edition has seen the "standard" creep up to the point where you're starting to get into the same issue that WFB had where you need an exorbitant amount of models to play lower points games.

[Vaz]

They.... kind of did this in 6th, although they approached it from the other way and gave you a caveat to ignore it. Before the Chapter Tactics of 7th were introduced, what Space Marine Chapter was defined by what Special Character you took; if you took Calgar, you were granted his Special Abilities and were by extension playing Ultramarines, if you took Pedro Kantor you got his Special Abilities and thus were nominally playing Crimson Fists, because those characters HAD to be your Warlord.

Unfortunately, this was in the same book that ALSO said "feel free to paint your models however you want and rename these characters to suit yourself, there's enough Chapters in the Imperium that some overlap between equipment and special skills is going to be inevitable", so the amount of multi-coloured Pedro Kantors, in particular, stick out on my memory as being A Thing for quite a while.

But, yeah. GW wanted you to get stuck with Character + Rules = Paint Scheme, but they didn't try very hard at it and almost no one capitulated, especially with the Codex: Space Marines book. The two Angels of Death books were generally treated with a bit more cooperation in that regard, but only because it was harder to disguise a specific non-Codex Army List (ie, Death Company or Ravenwing) as a customised Chapter.

They did it in 3rd, 4th and 5th as well, only without the caveat.
It was often ignored. Not sure how this is novel, or why people are up in arms about it.

It's also literally the baseline of the Horus Heresy. No issues.

[Forum Explorer]

Then just play larger games if you're unhappy with a "small" army? The constant points reductions has meant that a 1500 game has gone from 20 marines, a tank and a character to 60 marines, 12 transports, 15 scouts and 2 characters and possibly a few other sundries as well. While putting lots of models on the table is nice, I think we have to accept that the more models you put on the table, the longer it takes to play as that's a fairly basic sort of thing. Who knows, maybe the "standard" points level will rise to 2k or even 2500 is people want to use the same amount of models as now. Hell, the "standard" points for 30k is 2.5 - 3k, so why not have a different points "standard" for 40k? Every edition has seen the "standard" creep up to the point where you're starting to get into the same issue that WFB had where you need an exorbitant amount of models to play lower points games.

Yeah, I know 9th age has much large points costs, but that's more to have better balance in costing things out. The standard games simply are larger.

[Drasius]

Yeah, I know 9th age has much large points costs, but that's more to have better balance in costing things out. The standard games simply are larger.

And I suspect that's what the aim of GW is, to try and get a better balance for 40k. Sisters got a huge discount on battle sisters (12 --> 9), Fire warriors got a discount (9 --> 8), Vanilla marines went down (14 --> 13) so it's not all about points hikes, just costing things more appropriately (hopefully). Until we get a more solid grasp on how it all goes together, we still can't say what's strong and what's weak (though Tau seem to have been bopped with the nerf bat pretty hard from initial impressions, but my tanks seems to be a bit better, so I'm less affected). Hopefully the new costings mean that infantry are viable like they've tried to do for the last few editions (with very little success).

[LeSwordfish]

Sieze the Initiative is officially back in as is random turn length. Two things that don't precisely break the game, but are annoying as heck.

If I may, I think Random Game Length is important for balancing purposes: if the game has a fixed endpoint then going second is immensely powerful, because you get a whole turn without your opponent being able to respond in any way. This mears that I'm objective-based games, fast objective grabbers and second turn is nearly an instant win. Random game length forces you to treat every turn as if the game might continue - so you can't just throw all your Scouts out of cover and onto the objective, because your opponent might get a chance to shoot them off.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Minor notes from the Blood Angels leaks:
-Just noticed that Combat Shields now give a 5+ Invulnerable save. Will that be a not-pointless upgrade? Hmm.
-Crozius Arcanum is no longer identical to a power maul, and has one less S and does 2 damage
-The whole bit about chainswords having a special thing with an extra attack now appears pointless, as Combat Knives (and presumably other basic ccw for other factions) have the same ability. Should have just given them -1AP or 2 Damage, GW. They're still depressingly vanilla for a chainsaw sword.
-There is no reason to ever take a Power Fist over a Thunder Hammer for non-characters, since they both cost 20 for said models. PF's do D3 damage while TH's do 3, and are otherwise identical. The huge reduction in points for other power weapons makes me feel like PF's could have at least been dropped to somewhere in the 15-18 range, but they are cheaper than in 7th.
-Storm bolters feel worth it for 2 points, as they double the bolter's firepower. Models with the option for storm bolters other than Termies will probably have better options.
-Combi-weapons seem pretty sweet, especially for characters with a 2+ BS as they can fire both options (if you really need those two bolter shots lol) and still hit on 3+.
-Wrist-mounted grenade launcher has AP1, which seems like a typo unless they really wanted it to improve enemy armor saves :smalltongue:
-Shotguns add 1 to strength if within in half range, which could be interesting for aggressive scouts. You would get to wound MEQs on 3's, which is something, I guess. No AP makes me think that will be useless for models it would have been useful against (T4 MEQs), who will just save those extra wounds. 10 Scouts could pump out 20 S5 shots, though, which could be useful to take a wound or two off vehicles in a pinch.

[deuterio12]

Also of note is the fact that Razorbacks are 5 points cheaper than Rhinos. Barring some advantage for Rhinos other than the extra 5 transport spots, expect to see more Razorbacks with 5 man squads now that all transports are assault vehicles and even heavy bolter Razorbacks can contribute meaningfully.


5 points cheaper before wargear. A twin-linked heavy bolter will add 17 points to the razorback's cost.

[Drasius]

Minor notes from the Blood Angels leaks:
-Just noticed that Combat Shields now give a 5+ Invulnerable save. Will that be a not-pointless upgrade? Hmm.
-Crozius Arcanum is no longer identical to a power maul, and has one less S and does 2 damage
-The whole bit about chainswords having a special thing with an extra attack now appears pointless, as Combat Knives (and presumably other basic ccw for other factions) have the same ability. Should have just given them -1AP or 2 Damage, GW. They're still depressingly vanilla for a chainsaw sword.
-There is no reason to ever take a Power Fist over a Thunder Hammer for non-characters, since they both cost 20 for said models. PF's do D3 damage while TH's do 3, and are otherwise identical. The huge reduction in points for other power weapons makes me feel like PF's could have at least been dropped to somewhere in the 15-18 range, but they are cheaper than in 7th.
-Storm bolters feel worth it for 2 points, as they double the bolter's firepower. Models with the option for storm bolters other than Termies will probably have better options.
-Combi-weapons seem pretty sweet, especially for characters with a 2+ BS as they can fire both options (if you really need those two bolter shots lol) and still hit on 3+.
-Wrist-mounted grenade launcher has AP1, which seems like a typo unless they really wanted it to improve enemy armor saves :smalltongue:
-Shotguns add 1 to strength if within in half range, which could be interesting for aggressive scouts. You would get to wound MEQs on 3's, which is something, I guess. No AP makes me think that will be useless for models it would have been useful against (T4 MEQs), who will just save those extra wounds. 10 Scouts could pump out 20 S5 shots, though, which could be useful to take a wound or two off vehicles in a pinch.

- IIRC, the combat shields are 2 points. That's a huge upgrade over a 6++ for 5 points in 7th.
- I like that the crozius is different, gives the chaplain a bit more feel and some extra punch against multi-wound targets that he and his friends should be fighting
- I suspect that the combat knife thing might be BA only to try and make them the assault legion chapter
- The Fist/Hammer thing does seem odd. Hopefully a errata comes out to drop the fist to ~15 points will be forthcoming
- I wonder if doubling the shots coupled with the change to the wound table will be sufficient to "fix" one of the main issues of tactical termies? Doesn't feel like it, especially if their points have gone up by ~50 points, but hey, will have to wait and see
- I did the maths a while back and shooting the bolter portion of a combi is very often a bad idea since the majority of the work is being done by the special weapon portion of the gun. Still, it's a nice option to have for only 2 points more than the special weapon only version of the combi.
- I can't help but notice that the stupid 30th annivresary marine gun is a 0 point upgrade.
- Shotguns might be useful if you were planning on doing the BA CC thing. Jump out of a transport 3", move 6", advance d6", fire your str5 shotguns and then charge 2d6" Could be a nice bully unit against stuff like devastators.

[LeSwordfish]

- I did the maths a while back and shooting the bolter portion of a combi is very often a bad idea since the majority of the work is being done by the special weapon portion of the gun. Still, it's a nice option to have for only 2 points more than the special weapon only version of the combi.

It's going to kick ass for combi-flamers, since they hit automatically, so even if the bolter is less accurate it's still free shots.



- I can't help but notice that the stupid 30th annivresary marine gun is a 0 point upgrade.

It looks as if things that are "basic" guns - bolters, pistols, etc - are 0 points and included in the cost of the model wielding them. As such, hopefully said Space Marine is a notch more expensive than the others.

[Theodoric]

Kind-of bummed that Tau Battlesuit squads apparently all have a minimum size of 3. Really hope they'll change that after feedback since it doesn't really fit with my model collection as it is. I've got a few spare old suit kits lying around, but building an extra Bodyguard just because they arbitrarily bump up the minimum squad size sucks. Screw that. Also, monats were neat.

[Blackhawk748]

They.... kind of did this in 6th, although they approached it from the other way and gave you a caveat to ignore it. Before the Chapter Tactics of 7th were introduced, what Space Marine Chapter was defined by what Special Character you took; if you took Calgar, you were granted his Special Abilities and were by extension playing Ultramarines, if you took Pedro Kantor you got his Special Abilities and thus were nominally playing Crimson Fists, because those characters HAD to be your Warlord.

What i find incredibly annoying (if its true, it was in the "leaks" after all) Is that the Sisters Orders are just whatever you call your army. Their example was Order of Expensive Models and We Need Plastic Sisters, and that just serves as your tag for you army. Apparently there are no rules other than that.

If that is true i am gonna be so pissed.

[Theodoric]

What i find incredibly annoying (if its true, it was in the "leaks" after all) Is that the Sisters Orders are just whatever you call your army. Their example was Order of Expensive Models and We Need Plastic Sisters, and that just serves as your tag for you army. Apparently there are no rules other than that.

If that is true i am gonna be so pissed.
Why? Do all the specific orders need to have tailored rules right at launch for them to mean anything?

[Blackhawk748]

Why? Do all the specific orders need to have tailored rules right at launch for them to mean anything?

Its what it implies for everyone else. If the Clan, Order or Sept is just an arbitrary name in a tag what does it do? Nothing, other than let you have two different groups of a single faction on the board which only hurts you. Its freakin stupid.

[Eldan]

That. It's bad form to write a rule term that doesn't do anything in most cases, except hurt a player in an edge case.

[Cheesegear]

Kind-of bummed that Tau Battlesuit squads apparently all have a minimum size of 3...

...and Chaos Terminators have a minimum squad of 5 now. The unit sizes line up with the box. It's really simple. That is; Buy new models.


That. It's bad form to write a rule term that doesn't do anything in most cases, except hurt a player in an edge case.

They have a lot of Keywords in Sigmar that don't do anything. It's pretty dumb. However, my Blackshirt tried to reason with me on this one. By throwing in all the Keywords they can think of straight off the bat, even if half of them don't do anything, they could, one day in the future, release a model or rule that does interact with those Keywords. Maybe not now, but later.

By essentially 'Keyword dumping' on their models, they are, in some way, future-proofing their rule set, even if they never go back to it, they could. By putting in an <arbitrary name tag> on a unit, they open themselves up to make Uniques and more rules for that Sub-Faction.

[Eldan]

I suppose. But what are the chances that sisters will ever get, I don't know, an order specific special character? Next to none, I'd say. Same for model that says "All tyranids with the [Hive fleet Jormungander] keyword reroll 1s to hit or "All models with the "Craftworld Iyanden" keyword 6" around this model gain +2 movement". It makes sense for marines and basically no one else, as it currently stands.

[Cheesegear]

It makes sense for marines and basically no one else, as it currently stands.

/tumbleweed

[Requizen]

Some more Necron leaks this morning: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/12690/724730.page#9393176

-C'tan pick or roll for one of these three powers in addition to other abilities they have:
1) On a 2+, deal d3 MWs to the nearest enemy unit within 24"
2) Pick a unit within 24" and roll a d6. If higher than their Wound characteristic, remove a model
3) Pick a unit and roll a dice for each model in that unit within 24". On a 6, deal a MW to the unit.

Essentially Psychic Powers. Smite that's easier to get off but no chance for extra damage. The wound one seems neat but unreliable, it gets harder to get off the more you want to kill the thing. The last is your standard horde clearer.

-Gauss is more or lessjust regular guns with a better Rend. Gauss Flayers are Rapid Fire 1 24" AP-1 D1. Blasters are AP -2, Cannons are AP -3 D3 Damage. Which seems good to me.
-Zahndrekh can prevent an enemy character within 12" from using rules. Decent way to shut down deathstars. Also has random buffs to nearby units.
-Overlords can give a unit +1 hit/run/charge, think this makes Tesla activate on a 5+
-Obyron can teleport to Zahndrekh and can fight even if he's killed.

-Quantum Shield now works like this: When you take a multi-damage attack, roll a d6. If it's less than the damage (so if it's damage 4, a 1-3), ignore it completely.
-All vehicles and Characters have Living Metal, returning 1 wound per turn. Phylactery on DLord bumps that to d3 per turn.
-Res Orb lets you make two Reanimation rolls per turn.

Need more.

[Theodoric]

...and Chaos Terminators have a minimum squad of 5 now. The unit sizes line up with the box. It's really simple. That is; Buy new models.
Yeah, learning to deal with that sort of crap's part of the hobby, sadly. Probably still going to bitch about it on their community feedback page when it launches, though. :smallsmile:

[DataNinja]

-Quantum Shield now works like this: When you take a multi-damage attack, roll a d6. If it's less than the damage (so if it's damage 4, a 1-3), ignore it completely.

So, it becomes more effective the better a thing is at tankbusting?

[Cheesegear]

Probably still going to bitch about it on their community feedback page when it launches, though. :smallsmile:

Now you're getting it!

[Tome]

Been doing some number crunching with the Tau leaks and figured out a few things.

Commanders are more effective than the equivalent points worth of standard crisis teams, except when you equip them with triple flamers. Spamming Commanders might be a thing.

Flamers are really good against any infantry without a 2+ save. Like, 'kill marines in the open more effectively than plasma' good.

Crisis suits can now equip three guns. There is no point to using any of the offensively boosting wargear because another gun is better and drones are cheap enough to wager the defensive stuff obsolete. Commanders can equip four guns similarly.

AP has diminishing returns. Reducing a model's save beyond a certain point just isn't worth it.

I'm still trying to pick out the best options for anti-meq, anti-geq and anti-tank.

[bluntpencil]

Been doing some number crunching with hat Tau leaks. And figured out a few things.

Commanders are more effective than the equivalent points worth of standard crisis teams, except when you equip them with triple flamers. Expect spamming Commanders to be a thing.

Flamers are really good against any infantry without a 2+ save. Like, 'kill marines in the open more effectively than plasma' good.

Crisis suits can now equip three guns. There is no point to using any of the offensively boosting wargear and drones are cheap enough to wager the defensive stuff obsolete. Commanders can equip four guns similarly.

AP has diminishing returns. Reducing a model's beyond a certain point just isn't worth it.

I'm still trying to pick out the best options for anti-meq, anti-geq and anti-tank.

I've been trying to work out how shooty a Deathwatch Terminator can be...

Storm Bolter, plus Cyclone launcher, plus meltafist... more guns than a Dreadnought getting fired at once.

[Theodoric]

New teaser's out, about choosing your army (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/30/new-warhammer-40000-choosing-your-army-may30gw-homepage-post-4/).
Nothing really new, all the leaks kind-of spoiled it.

[Drasius]

...and Chaos Terminators have a minimum squad of 5 now. The unit sizes line up with the box. It's really simple. That is; Buy new models.

And now they don't fit in a Land Raider with a character like they used to because for some reason, the Dark Mechanicum has sat on their hands/tendrils/manipulators for the last 10,000 years while the loyalists invent a bunch of new toys. Lame.


I suppose. But what are the chances that sisters will ever get, I don't know, an order specific special character? Next to none, I'd say. Same for model that says "All tyranids with the [Hive fleet Jormungander] keyword reroll 1s to hit or "All models with the "Craftworld Iyanden" keyword 6" around this model gain +2 movement". It makes sense for marines and basically no one else, as it currently stands.

Technically, Celestine (and Verydian) should be Order of Our Martyred Lady if you want to get picky, but then, that would greatly annoy all the people who don't collect OoOML but bought her in the triumverate anyway. Apparently there's going to be faction specific differences for the various races, so wait until that's definately not a thing before you lose your cool - there could be a very good reason why everyone has <sub-faction> keywords.

[Requizen]

So, it becomes more effective the better a thing is at tankbusting?

Yeah. Necron vehicles are kind of opposite what they were before. The old Quantum Shielding made them very hard to kill against mid-range shooting but very weak to strong anti-tank, new QS makes them strong against heavy damage but does nothing against chip damage in the form of D1 AP-1 or the like.

Ark is T6 so Heavy Bolters and Autocannons will plink it down quickly, but Lascannons and Meltas it has a good chance of just straight out ignoring. Very odd, but neat. Kinda fluffy.

Some more Necron stuff:

Warscythes are S+2, AP-4, Damage 2, which makes it a solid weapon overall.

>imotek
>ws2+ w6 s5 t5 2+ 4++
>living metal (but regains d3 wounds)
>flayed units of the same dynasty within 12 reroll 1's
>at the start of the unit choose an infantry of the same dynasty and it gets +1 to advance, charge and hit rolls
>once per game choose an enemy unit within 48": on a 2+ it suffers a number of mortals wounds equal to the roll, each unit within 6 of it also get d3 mortal wounds on a 6
>228 pts
>staff 18" s6 ap-3 d2
>in melee it's S-user ap-3 d2
>the gauntlet is a flamerthrower with s4 and ap-

The flayers (Flayed Ones?) weapon hits at S:User AP- D1. Reroll to wound.
Scarabs weapon hits at S:User AP- D1. Always wounds on 5+ or better.

Living metal is indeed 1 wounds recovered per turn (1d3 with amulet)

Death gaze of C'than is Assault D6 wounds on 2+ AP-4 d3 damage (nasty!). Against vehicles it wounds on 6+.

Tachion arrow is range 120" S10 AP-5 D6 damage.

Doomsday weapon has 2 profiles:

- Low power: range 24" heavy d3 S8 AP-2 Damage D3
- High power: range 72"heavy d3 S10 AP-5 Damage D6. Can be fired only if you didn't move. When firing at a unit with 10 or more models, it becomes heavy d6,

Sinaptic disgregator(?) is a classic sniper with S4 no AP and mortal wound on 6 to wound.

Hopefully FLGS will get the books in this week so I can stop refreshing every site and just read the darn thing.

[Bobby Baratheon]

It would be kind of neat if they had a generic list of universal "chapter tactics" that everyone could pick from for their faction keyword. They'd have to be abilities that anyone could feasibly use, though I guess it'd be hard to make abilities that would be useful for everyone. You could even mine the old Warlord traits if you're feeling lazy. It'd just be a simple table that everyone once picks from.

Examples (off the top of my head):
-FNP (6+) equivalent for <infantry>
-All characters re-roll one dice to hit in challenges
-<jump> and <jet> infantry trigger mortal wounds on HoW on a 5+ instead of a 6+
-+3" range to ranged weapons
-One unit in the army improves its AP by 1
-All <vehicles> gain IWND (6+)

These were off the top of my head, so they admittedly suck but you get the idea.

You could even just do like the Imperial Militia and Cults list, and give players the option to pay for army-wide upgrades/abilities based on the faction keyword. That would be reaaaaallly cool (if probably hard to balance) because it would give options to make any army play differently for a price.

[Blackhawk748]

I suppose. But what are the chances that sisters will ever get, I don't know, an order specific special character? Next to none, I'd say. Same for model that says "All tyranids with the [Hive fleet Jormungander] keyword reroll 1s to hit or "All models with the "Craftworld Iyanden" keyword 6" around this model gain +2 movement". It makes sense for marines and basically no one else, as it currently stands.

Im fairly certain it is none. Sisters didnt even have an actual Battle Sister special character until recently, we had a Cardinal, a Priest and Celestine (yes shes technically a Battle Sister, but shes the Living freakin Saint). The only special Cannoness we had is Veridyan, and shes brand new, we lost all of our others.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hopefully FLGS will get the books in this week so I can stop refreshing every site and just read the darn thing.

They won't be out until June 17th, so no. Preorders go up this weekend.

[Requizen]

They won't be out until June 17th, so no. Preorders go up this weekend.

Our local store are getting them in this week and running events this weekend to hype up preorders. I'll report, let me know if there's anything specific you want to know. One guy said he'd probably get his in by tomorrow but I probably won't be able to make it out there.

[Renegade Paladin]

My primary concern is whether their promise of a 2k point game taking 90 minutes (made today in the comments on today's preview article on their Facebook page) remotely pans out, especially since they said 90 minutes for 1500 points at the outset of this thing. I'm running a three round tournament in July and I'm on a very strict timetable thanks to limited opening hours for the shop; I can't allow more than two hours for each round and need to know what points level to set for the tournament to make that realistic.

My secondary concern, of course, is how much Guard tanks have gone up in points cost. What happened to the Predator is not reassuring.

[Saambell]

So, the FLGS near me had a copy of the two Imperial Books, and the Chaos Book. Marines all in one book, the rest of Imperials in the other. I have no clue how power levels and combos work, so I cant report anything that way, but the one thing I did see was Space Wolves do get NuMarines, and a Wolf Lord on Bike is the Same as a Captain(it says to use the captain data sheet), and just as a little bit of "chaos can't have nice things" Wolf Lord on Bike with Frost Axe and Storm Shield(15 points for characters) is 123 points, while a JuggerLord base is 125. Really mad at myself for not looking at Defilers... Would love to use one of them.

[Tome]

Everything other than basic troops and characters seems to have gone up in price.

Battlesuits have doubled in price for one thing, while fire warriors and pathfinders are now cheaper.

[DaedalusMkV]

Everything other than basic troops and characters seems to have gone up in price.

Battlesuits have doubled in price for one thing, while fire warriors and pathfinders are now cheaper.

This may be because Crisis Suits got T5 and 3W. Roughly doubling their survivability against basically everything is kind of valuable, I think. And anything without Fusion Blasters is closer to 50% increased in price than doubled. Broadsides tripled in Wounds and also got T5, and their shooting is way nastier now. No wonder they cost... Right, yeah, twice as many points. Stealth Suits are basically exactly as many points as in 7th with 2W, as well.

Ghostkeels basically didn't change in price, and are probably the standout unit in-Faction from what I can tell thanks to having decent firepower at a reasonable price while being nearly immune to attack. Stormsurges are almost exactly as expensive as before, albeit with a bit less firepower than they used to have (but Advanced Targetting on them is... Really nasty).

But yeah, it does rather look like Tau are going to be wanting less Riptides and more Fire Warriors these days. Big blobs of Strike Teams supported by a Fireblade and an Ethereal looks like the most cost-effective method in-faction for bringing anti-infantry firepower to the table.

[Drasius]

Daemon leaks

https://imgur.com/a/T4VoF#kWJd8Vn

[Blackhawk748]

Daemon leaks

https://imgur.com/a/T4VoF#kWJd8Vn

Oh look, our guns are back. Wait....why do we have a lasgun now? And why, in the name of Tzeentch, did we get more expensive???

[Grim Portent]

Daemons Princes with T6 and bolters? ****ing finally, I've been wondering why no one who ascends bothers to keep their gun forever, and T5 on them has always been a joke.

Was expecting Daemonettes to move more than 7" though, seems a tad slow for the daemons based on speed and grace.

[Blackhawk748]

Daemons Princes with T6 and bolters? ****ing finally, I've been wondering why no one who ascends bothers to keep their gun forever, and T5 on them has always been a joke.

Was expecting Daemonettes to move more than 7" though, seems a tad slow for the daemons based on speed and grace.

Because back in 4th we had S5 AP3 Assault 3 eye lasers. Good times.

On a quick glance i see several questionable decisions.

[Bobby Baratheon]

So, um, unless I'm misreading something Magnus' sword gives him Strength 16 (along with AP-4 and 3 damage per wound). WTF. . .

[Blackhawk748]

So, um, unless I'm misreading something Magnus' sword gives him Strength 16 (along with AP-4 and 3 damage per wound). WTF. . .

You know, for all their blabbering about how 10 isnt the cap, thats the first thing i've seen above 10. Well, besides Ork Leadership with big Mobz.

[Drasius]

You know, for all their blabbering about how 10 isnt the cap, thats the first thing i've seen above 10. Well, besides Ork Leadership with big Mobz.

Imperial Knight Thunderstrike Gauntlet is Strx2 and they're str8 base, so they're Str16 too and they were leaked a few days ago.

[Blackhawk748]

Imperial Knight Thunderstrike Gauntlet is Strx2 and they're str8 base, so they're Str16 too and they were leaked a few days ago.

Huh, guess i missed that. In any event, theres barely anything over 10 so far, and theres a fair few leaks.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I didn't see a points cost, but based on the general ratio of power points to actual points, I'd assume Magnus' price tag is 400+, and probably not higher than 425. Assuming that's close to it, he seems like a pretty terrifying beatstick. Even his smite is pretty dangerous - 1d6 - 2d6 mortal wounds is nothing to sniff at, especially considering how easily he'll manifest it. T7 with 18 wounds (and the 3+/4++) means he's decently durable. He moves 16" before losing wounds, so he's also very fast. That sword, too . . . He can eff up almost anything in melee. If you don't have an invulnerable, be prepared to suck up 7 WS2+ S16 Ap-4 Damage 3 attacks. That should be enough to delete most single things (assuming he didn't soften it up with smite first). This also doesn't take into account his other three powers, which could be awesome or sucktastic for all we know.

My question, though, is if he himself benefits from his buff to nearby Thousand Sons. If so, virtually every one of those 7 attacks will connect, and they'll be wounding on 2's unless you have T9 (good luck). And doing 3 Damage each.

Against T8 and lower (assuming no re-roll):
7 attacks. 5.833 hit. 4.861 wound. Unless you have an invulnerable, you have no save. 3 Damage each, so that's 14.58 Damage on average.

Invulnerables could mitigate the damage, but his souped up smite should deal enough mortal wounds to anything he's planning on charging to balance it out.

He probably does get the re-roll, though, which means all 7 of those should realistically connect more often than not unless you have terrible luck. All seven connecting brings the damage up to ~17.5-ish damage.

Seems like a reasonable deal for the price of ~2 tricked out daemon princes.

[Brookshw]

Huh, guess i missed that. In any event, theres barely anything over 10 so far, and theres a fair few leaks.

True. Add carnifex w/ claws to the list (s12).

Hmmm.....can't recall if dreadnaughts have something similar.

[JNAProductions]

I didn't see-what are the GUO stats?

[Drasius]

https://image.prntscr.com/image/3301f4752dbb4cd4aa4f3389996e42c6.png

[Renegade Paladin]

Huh, guess i missed that. In any event, theres barely anything over 10 so far, and theres a fair few leaks.

Try Dreadnoughts. Anything with a power fist that's over S5 will exceed S10.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Were carnifexes always that cheap? I'd imagine their wargear can up the price significantly, though.

[Tome]

Huh, guess i missed that. In any event, theres barely anything over 10 so far, and theres a fair few leaks.

Pulse Blastcannon is S10/S12/S14 depending on range.

[Mystic Muse]

Were carnifexes always that cheap? I'd imagine their wargear can up the price significantly, though.

They're almost half the price they are in 7e.

[Cheesegear]

"Crisis Suits come 3 to a squad 'cause that's what's in the box, dur."
*Sees that Hive Guard can be taken in squads of 1*

What is GW even doing?

[LeSwordfish]

I had two games of SW:A today, and they were fun. The start of a campaign:

Ninth Talon
(All with Mark Of Tzeentch)
Rogen - Aspiring Champion: Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Camo Gear,
Sar Ayen - Chaos Space Marine: Bolter, RDS,
Krios - Chaos Space Marine: Bolter,
Arcos - Chaos Space Marine: Bolter,
Saul - Chaos Gunner: Plasma Gun, Camo Gear, Telescopic Sight,

As recommended by the playground. Camo Gear is here represented by Jump Packs - presumably they can jump and dodge about enough to be harder to hit. Or something.


Game One: Kill Team Fight vs Tau
First game was versus Tau - I couldn't have given you a list, but it was about eight models including a Pulse Accelerator Drone, a gunner with a rail rifle, and my opponent's favourite model, a Tau called, apparently, the T'au for "Spoon."

Sar Ayen's voice crackled in his vox. "I see them. Three on the left, two on the right."

"Good," Rogen growled. "Any worth the pledge?"

Sar Ayen huffed, a verbal shrug audible through the helmet connection. "You know what the blueskins are like. None are even worth the bolt rounds."

"We're still killing them, right?" Saul, the raptor with the massive plasma gun, hadn't removed his helmet in months. His massive weapon hissed constantly, and leaked a waft of coolant into the ductwork over their heads: Rogen fancied that Saul's voice had taken on some of the hiss too, and a haze of coolant vapor hung around his vox-grille when he spoke.

Rogen sighed. They were low on spoils to trade at the edge of the city, which meant they were low on bolt rounds, on armor plates and on spare teeth for their chainblades. The gear from these aliens would fetch a reasonable price in trade - not to mention the promethium caches apparently somewhere in the area.

"Yes," he allowed. "Saul, go high. Sar Ayen, take Krios and sweep left. Arcos and I will go right: I want their leader's skull."

"We're killing them?"

"We're definitely killing them."

The game opens up with my team spreading out as described. My leader heads one way after his leader, while the other marines duck the other way to take on a group of new recruits with the accelerator drone.

The rattle of bolt fire sounded as Sar Ayen and Krios opened fire, but both were forced to dodge back into cover as a fusillade of pulse shots returned, the rusted pipeline they were behind buckling under the damage. Sar Ayen leaned quickly out of cover and fired a single shot, then grunted with laughter. "Got one."

"Don't get cocky," Arcos growled, "they hit hard."

"It's too late to stop Sar Ayen from getting cocky," Rogen muttered, and Arcos laughed. They were some distance from the main firefight, picking their way through the burned-out carcass of a cargo vessel, trying to get the drop on the tau leader. Rogen fired his jump pack briefly, hopping up to the top of the cab - and then ducked back down into cover again as a heavy shot punched a hole the size of his torso in the cab's cowling. "Sniper, rail weapon!"

"I see him." Saul hissed. "I've been climbing the damn walls to keep out of sight of him, but..."

There was a pause. Rogen could imagine the raptor leaning out, aiming his plasma gun one-handed while the other gripped a ceiling.

"Got him," Saul muttered with satisfaction.

With the benefits of range, my Plasma Gunner can target his Rail Rifle while being out of range, and a brief burst of sustained fire takes him down (and, as we will discover later, kills him outright.) Thanks to luck and Sar Kell's sight, he and Krios manage to take out two of the Tau on the other flank, and with Rogen approaching his leader fast, my opponent Bottles when Saul kills his drone.

I roll 3 for my D3 promethium, and immediately spend one cache (we got one for free if our starting kill team was painted) on buying a new Trooper with Bolter, Sight, and Chainsword (to be given to someone else as soon as possible.) Rogen rolls for an advance, hoping for Scavenger, and instead picks up the ability to re-roll his advances. Nice!

Aside from his Rail Rifle, most of his team is up and about again - except beloved Spoon, who is captured.

Rogen grabbed the tau juvenile by the neck and hoisted it bodily aloft, turning it from side to side to inspect it better. Shrapnel from the rubble it had been using as cover had scored open it's helmet and left it dazed and deadened when it's teammates abandoned it.

"I'm sure we can find something to do with this," he said speculatively, and Sar Ayen - who had insisted that it still counted as his kill even though he had not even hit it - laughed loudly. To it's credit, when the tau made a grab for it's carbine and brought it around to aim at Rogen's head, it nearly managed to get a shot off before Rogen swatted it away. The Tau howled, it's arm shattered.

"Don't make this any worse for yourself," Rogen advised. Sar Ayen laughed again.

Game Two: Rescue vs Tau
My opponent wants to play again immediately to try and get Spoon back, so I oblige. He gets only a handful of his kill team, while I can only deploy four on the board to start: I setup Spoon in the centre of the board and four guys around him - it's only later that I realise the facing matters and I've placed them all facing inwards. His random table edge then puts him directly behind both my Champion and Gunner.

The unfortunate blueskin was hung from a lamppost by hooks driven through flayed flesh. A pool of cerulean blood was spreading from the ground below him. Saul adjusted the sights of his plasma gun, and let it hiss out a brief burst of vapourised coolant.
"They're late," he grumbled.
"Silence." Rogen growled. "The slippery bastards are dripping with sensors and could hear a bloatfly fart. Your complaining is not going to be quieter."
"Have you heard a bloatfly fart?" Sar Ayen asked, static crimping his voice: he was looping wide around the square, hoping to catch the blueskins creeping up on them. "A passing Rhino would be quieter."
Saul seemed to intake breath to respond, but instead yelped in pain. Rogen immediately spun round, aiming his wrist cannon at shadows - and spotted a set of shadows deeper than the others.

The tau sneak up, and try a shot at Saul - two out of three miss, though, and his armour soaks the third shot. He dives for cover, raising the alarm.

"Behind us," Saul grunted. "One of them drew a bead on me."
Rogen triggered his jump pack and leapt towards the nearest shadows, ignoring Y's uproarious laughter in his ears.

Rogen charges towards the nearest two pathfinders, while both my reinforcements arrive and sprint forwards towards the fight. Two marines go on overwatch around "Spoon" to prevent the tau making a dash for him, while X hauls himself to his feet - only to be immediately pinned again by the commander. The two tau near Rogen dodge around the corner enough to line up shots on him- and knock him down with a well-aimed pulse shot.

Sar Ayen ducked into cover behind a pillar and opened up with a fusillade of shots. One of the Tau fell, but was dragged to his feet by his commander, and the three blueskins retreated in remarkably good order, Y thought: one of them even managing to pump a flash grenade into the ruins above them to knock Saul back on his arse. Sar Ayen laughed long and hard at that, but stopped abruptly when a flatline tone whined - one of the talon was down.

"The boss is down." Arcos announced shortly. "I can't see him."
"I can. It's bad," Krios said.

I move several of my squad so as to line up shots on the two approaching Rogen, but none can hit or wound. Sar Ayen pins one, but in his turn the commander gets him up again. He pulls his commander and companions back into cover, and ducks one of the others into cover too, but one runs straight for Rogen and engages him in close combat. Because Rogen is down, he is immediately removed from the game - by a Tau! In close combat! That's so humiliating!

Rogen couldn't breathe, could barely see, could only grunt with pain and drag himself back. The high-energy plasma round had torn through his breastplate and laid the interior of one lung open to the air- and now he was struggling to even move as his trophy rack dragged on the ground, his damaged jump pack a crippling weight on his back.

Two more pulse rounds hit him, cracking his breastplate and gauntlet on his other side. He managed to turn to see the blueskin approaching, but could do nothing as it lined it's carbine up directly against his forehead for a final killing shot.

Rogen rasped out a curse - and then the Tau screamed, as a fusillade of plasma burned off both it's arms and set it's fatigues on fire. High in the building behind, X ducked back into cover and vented coolant, with a distinct air of satisfaction.

Saul downs and kills the tau with three overcharged plasma shots, while Y, A, and another marine each down another. With only his commander left standing, my opponent retreats.

It looked as if they were pulling back, Saul thought, watching the blueskins retreat, largely carrying each other. Sensible: with all of Ninth Talon now approaching, they couldn't possibly hope to hold their scattered position. He tensed as the leader swung his carbine up, aiming it one-handed - but it wasn't aimed at any of the Night Lords. Instead, the plasma round struck their prisoner square in the chest, blasting him open and ending his life.

Saul nodded. That was what he'd have done too.

End of the game, victory for me, another "three" for my d3 promethium. Rogen rolls for his recovery - six! And his advance - a skill - Scavenger! Good times. I put my main advance on Saul, who gets +1 move, which is neat enough I guess.

With Scavenger and the bonus from my opponent failing to rescue poor Spoon, that's 250 points to spend, which is enough for a new Gunner with a Plasma Gun - fun fun fun.

All my Opponents casualties get up, except for the one who took down Rogen...

Rogen was dragged up and leaned against a wall, and didn't have the opportunity to object as Arcos patched his injuries with synskin. He did, however, once he could breathe again, and he pointed at the blueskin who had taken him down. The fire in the unfortunate creature's fatigues had gone out and now it was lying there, it's legs spasming.

"That one is still alive," he muttered. "See that it stays so."

Then he passed out.

Captured!

I've raced ahead in the campaign, tied only with the Harlequin player for first place, with both Tau lists, the Inquisition, Skitarii, and Wych Cult all well behind. With my upgrades I'm now at 1450 points total, and if I can win the next Rescue I get another 250 point bounty.

Ninth Talon, Now
(All with Mark Of Tzeentch)
Rogen - Aspiring Champion: Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Camo Gear, Destined For Greatness, Scavenger
Sar Ayen - Chaos Space Marine: Bolter, RDS,
Krios - Chaos Space Marine: Bolter,
Arcos - Chaos Space Marine: Bolter, Chainsword
Saul - Chaos Gunner: Plasma Gun, Camo Gear, Telescopic Sight, +1 Move
Zar Kell - Chaos Space Marine: Bolter, RDS
Sierk - Chaos Gunner: Plasma Gun, RDS, Telescopic Sight,

With the RDS destined for someone with a bolter at the end of next game. I think the sensible thing is to buy another (nearly naked) dude for my next purchase, then spend 150 points tooling him and everyone else up.

[Voidhawk]

Huh, guess i missed that. In any event, theres barely anything over 10 so far, and theres a fair few leaks.

Dreadnoughts are Str 6 base, and come with a x2 fist so they hit at Str12. Though we are yet to see any unit with a non-wound base value above 10.


This also doesn't take into account his other three powers, which could be awesome or sucktastic for all we know.

We know what he gets, the Dark Hereticus discipline is the Chaos Marine one and was leaked earlier. (http://i.imgur.com/mvGKpz7.jpg)
Prescience lets him give re-rolls to non-Thousand Sons units, or ones that are 10-18" away from him.
Infernal Gaze lets him do a couple more MW to something.
But Warptime lets him move again for free, giving him an effective first-turn threat range of 36"+charge.

[Blackhawk748]

"Crisis Suits come 3 to a squad 'cause that's what's in the box, dur."
*Sees that Hive Guard can be taken in squads of 1*

What is GW even doing?

Being high, clearly. I mean, a freakin broodlord is 162 points? In what screwed up universe is a freakin Broodlord worth more than a Hive Tyrant??

[Brookshw]

That Haurspex pricing is just silly unless its massively changed (fingers crossed). Overall seems like they aimed to make nids more swarmy w/ the prices (tbd). Mawloc spam is gonna be sweet.

Maybe my lictors will suddenly be viable! No, no, not at one per unit.

Darius, do you have a link to the source or the weapon points?

[boomwolf]

Prices are meaningless before gear prices. We got things with minimal gear cost above the model cost.

Anything big seem to have spiked in price.


Anyways, Magnus, ahriman and Co git dark hereticus powers by default, I'd wager one of the pages yet to be seen includes powers you get if playing pure TS/tzeentch.

[Brookshw]

Nvm, rest of the points are leaked, scroll down. Interesting that toxic sacs are scaled in pricing.
Dakka (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/724730.page).

[Voidhawk]

Full photo leak of literally everything. Not great quality, but comprehensive:

- Core Rules (http://imgur.com/a/OrSvi)
- Chaos (http://imgur.com/a/o3qv8)
- Imperium 1 (http://imgur.com/a/Sgf3b) (Marines)
- Imperium 2 (http://imgur.com/a/LyyZg) (Not Marines)
- Xenos 1 (http://imgur.com/a/F1RkD) (Eldar and Necrons)
- Xenos 2 (http://imgur.com/a/CbFvm) (Everyone Else)

[lord_khaine]

Kinda embaresing, there is a.. im not certain if syntax error is the right word.. or a cut&past error.. in the Eldar psychic power Embolden.
And else im a little sorry to see that Mind War apperently did not make the cut.

Else wow though, the Avatars stats does not seem like to much at first glance, but since it only has 8 wounds that means it cant be targeted if its close enough to an Eldar Unit. And the 12 inch aura of ignore morale suddenly makes it seem like a rather viable choice. Especially for massed aspec warriors and Guardians.

[boomwolf]

Chaos is rather.l disappointing.
Marks do nothing (couldn't even find anything referring to a mark keyword), thousand sons have only the base spells, so with matched play limit of each spell once per turn your many sorcerers are unable to even try casting due to lack of spells (and death guard gets more spells? Seriusly?)

Chaos seems really unbaked.

Tau (my other army) also seem unbaked.



Overall, great potential, but these index seem like "well you can technically play now" rather than proper armies.

[Gauntlet]

Chaos is rather.l disappointing.
Marks do nothing (couldn't even find anything referring to a mark keyword), thousand sons have only the base spells, so with matched play limit of each spell once per turn your many sorcerers are unable to even try casting due to lack of spells (and death guard gets more spells? Seriusly?)

The Matched Play rules say you can only cast each power once per army except Smite so you get to do something with all your psykers at least.

Tau actually look pretty good to me. Strength 5 shooting in general is looking pretty solid this edition, and Gun Drones in particular look great for it. The difficult bit is deciding what your monster slayers are going to be.

[Requizen]

Still parsing Necron info. Initial thoughts:

Infantry armies are going to be super strong. Vehicles are very expensive, as are Destroyers and Tomb Blades... but they're better so maybe it's worth? Still, anything that's not Silver Tide is going to be very, very low model count. ~50 points for a freaking Tomb Blade! More than double of 7th.

RP is both better and worse than 7th. Better since you can benefit over multiple turns and the new Res Orb + Cryptek combo is insane. Worse since it's much easier to just fully gib units of dudes in one turn.

Doomsday Arks and Doom Scythes are the new hotness. Trust me.

We lost all allies. Very unhappy. I have literally nothing to do with my kitbashed Necron Knight, unless someone lets me proxy it as a Monolith or something.

Deathmarks are top tier.

There are a few potential deathstar units out there, which is good to see. I'm seeing Lychguard+Cryptek+Overlord/Anrakyr, Imotekh+Cryptek+Flayed One blob, CCB+Tomb Blades/Praetorians, or even just simple Overlord+Tesla Immortals. Lots of good synergy.

Two LoW options are... I dunno. Obelisk just shreds infantry but so does everything else in the army. Tesseract Vault has potential with all C'tan powers but it's very expensive. Vault may become super powerful but we'll see once the price pans out.

Bubble Wrap/Tarpit units are going to be the name of the game for Necrons. I don't see myself having a game without at least 30 Warriors on the table at a minimum.

[Turalisj]

Kinda underwhelmed by the Necrons and Grey Knights, but mein gott have Adeptus Mechanicus received an improvement. Arc rifles are kinda meh now and the TUA looks friggin' sweet. The TUA and plasma guns are probably going to be the new mainstay for AdMech armies. I'm not so sure on how to build my sicarians now, infiltrators have the infiltrate rule which is an easy turn 1 charge after burst fire with stub carbines or fletchette pistols. But ruststalkers have the potential to unload mortal wounds (Which seems to be the new rend).

[Professor Gnoll]

So... are Chapter Tactics a thing? I can't find them anywhere.

Anyway, looking at Harlequins- the weapon choices lost a lot of flavour. They're basically just variations on the Power Weapons theme. Troupe Masters are now Captain-level instead of Sergeant-level. Solitaire is almost exactly the same except now much harder to kill thanks to being a proper Character. Falling Back and still Charging is a solid ability to recapture the initiative if you lost the charge- though I can't see that many clowns surviving a charge even with the new 4+ Holo-suit invuln. Harlies are fast, though, with 8" moves and Advancing and Charging. Also, if I'm reading Flip Belts right, they ignore all Terrain, including buildings and such. Shadowseers continue to be mandatory with Shield From Harm (couldn't they have called that Veil of Tears, just so something got to be named after the iconic ability?), and Death Jesters are less 'move units around' and more 'precision target special weapons out of squads'.

Harlequins seem pretty similar to how they were before- just with better invulns and more attacks. And that can only be a good thing.

I'm going to miss the old Embrace, though.

[Requizen]

The current thought is that if they're going to give free rules to certain Chapters(/Hive Fleets/Legions/Septs/Dynasties/Clans), they're going to do it in the Codices that will be released later. Much like AoS had the basic rules but then in the Battletomes you could get special rules for your specific Stormcast Chamber or Orruk Clan.

[Gauntlet]

Necrons look interesting. It seems like they'll have plenty of ways of killing anything without a ton of wounds, since they have quite a lot of weapons with good strength and plenty of -1 and -2 AP weapons, but they don't have very many weapons that do lots of wounds at once, short of their big stompy close combat units. Even the c'tan powers don't do much to big creatures, since d3 mortal wounds isn't particularly scary for something with 16+. I guess they have the durability to last a couple of turns while they grind a big target down with weight of fire.

[DataNinja]

Huh. The Lance mode of the Fire Prism is strength 12. I am a little sad that Lance weapons don't seem to have a rule for treating the opponent's Toughness as lower, since that was kinda their thing, but, ah well.

Interesting that Wraithguard actually have a semblance of melee ability. -1, with D3 Damage.

Vectored engines are really interesting, especially if you're able to combine them with star engines. Seems like that could make a not half-bad delivery system. Advance 16"+2d6, and make it harder to hit.

Well, then. Ghoshelms appear to be a 3+ "save" against Mortal Wounds only. So does the Avatar's Molten Body rule. I wonder how common things like this are going to be.

[bluntpencil]

There's a fair amount of errors.

A master-crafter power sword, for an Inquisitor, is free, as opposed to 4 for a regular one.

Deathwatch Captains, Chaplains, and Librarians don't get Special Issue Ammo.

Drop Pods are prohibitively expensive for something that, in Matched Play, won't be taken in huge amounts anyway, and it can't really get into that 6" melta sweet spot anyway.

Plasma Guns, if Rapid Firing, all must be rolled individually (something which this edition was supposed to avoid!) in a squad.

[Requizen]

Necron Thoughts:

Named Characters
-Imotekh: Points up, statline up, combat up, shooting up. Abilities got better, the buff to Flayed Ones is way more usable than the old crappy DS one, and the Storm is much more reliable (and you can use the Command Point reroll on it if you need to). I think he may actually be worthwhile in this edition, especially if you’re going for some sort of Flayed One fun time.
-Zahndrekh: Points up, statline a bit up, abilites down, combat a bit up. Eh, situational now. If the meta turns into one where shutting off abilities with Counter-Tactics is strong, he’ll be an auto-include. But, for everything else, he’s a bit sub-par.
-Obyron: Points up, statline up, combat up. As a beatstick, he’s better, but you never really brought him to just wail on things. So… eh? Pass I think.
-Orikan: Points up, statline up, combat up. Abilities are better since he just gives units a 5++ in both shooting and melee, making him a strong buff to any unit he’s nearby. His melee statline makes him pretty scary to many things in the game, so he still fulfils the buffing beatstick profile that we like. Still worth taking. Stick him with Warscythe Lychguard or Flayed Ones for something truly brutal.
-Szeras: Points up, statline a bit up, shooting the same. Abilities are a bit bad, since they’re still random and he doesn’t hand out 5++ like other Crypteks. Still a decent shooting platform that can stick around Immortals or Warriors to give them 4+ RP and supplement their statlines, so… not all terrible? But still one of the lesser options imo.
-Anrakyr: Points up by 7 so basically unchanged. Shooting is the same, but his buffs are way better, able to turn any unit into a decent beatstick or just give the general Overlord buff to any unit. Gained an Invuln! Actually quite good now - buffs things, fights well, and can potentially blast a vehicle or monster with his Arrow. Good choice!
-Trazyn: Not even gonna write about him. He was bad in 7th, he’s worse now somehow. Pass, unless you really want a fluffy army.

HQ
-Overlord: A bit more expensive, but not by much. Now has a solid buff, and the Staff of Light is decent in melee, so even without a Warscythe he’s a good beatstick. Warscythe is better, of course. Res Orbs have amazing troll potential.
-Lord: Eehhh… I dunno yet. The reroll isn’t that big since we’re all LD10, but can be useful. Another Res Orb holder. His statline is ok but nothing amazing. Not an auto-take but I can see one being ok.
-Cryptek: Very good. Very good indeed. Points only up a bit compared to before, but affects multiple units, so it’s ok. Statline is actually better since he’s not garbage in combat anymore. There should be at least one of these in every list, I’m thinking.
-CCB: Good and bad. Price is about the same, durability is different from before but maybe worse overall? But now can hide behind units. Probably best to stick with Praetorians since he can buff them while they bodyguard him, but Wraiths work too. Pretty good fighty unit I think, will see some on the table but not overbearing since you can’t get 2+ and what not.
-Destroyer Lord: Slightly more expensive, and serves different roles now. Still a decent beatstick, but now also can be used as a bodyguard/buffbot for Destroyer units as well. Maybe not as good as before, but it’ll depend on how Destroyer armies look.

Troops
-Warriors: Cheaper, with better guns? What’s the catch? Well, not as durable by themselves, but a big blob backed up by Crypteks, Ghost Arks, and Res Orbs is even harder to kill than before. These are great. Take 15-20 and have fun.
-Immortals: A bit pricier now, but dang their guns are good. Either Rend -2 or a crapton of shots. And Tesla can proc on a 5+ if you’re with an Overlord! I think 10+ units of Tesla are good for the buff, but 5 man units of Gauss will be really strong MSU units. Very good options.

Transport
-Ghost Ark: A bit underwhelming, but adds resiliency to Warriors. Shooting is pretty good now that you can use both Flayer Arrays on a single target, getting 10-20 shots in one go. Fast now, too, so you can get Warriors and Ark alike up field and laying down fire quickly. Can potentially get plinked down by mid-range shooting, so watch out for that.

Fast Attack
-Tomb Blades: Bloody expensive now, but got lots of nice boosts. 2 Wounds is good, higher speed is good, double the shots for Gauss, 4x the shots for Tesla. Can hang around with a CCB for Res Orb shenanigans. Their use now might be more for high-damage flanking, since they’re likely to just die. But they’re a bit expensive for suicide runs, so take that with caution.
-Destroyers: Also expensive now, 150% the old price, but with an extra wound and a lot of speed. No more JSJ (though that seems gone in general). Cannons are great - will eat multi-wound models for breakfast and are a great way to chew down big monsters/vehicles. Much more elite than previously, but can be great if you’re against other elite armies with their speed and damage.
-Wraiths: Whoo boy. Even more durable than before (though no more Harvest for RP), just as fast. Cheaper? Wow. Damage is different now - harder to wound things on a 2, but also harder to be forced into wounding on 6s. AP -1 is different from rending - more reliable overall, but less swingy. I think they’re great if you still want to take 18. Beamers are decent now since you can actually shoot them decently, though they don’t straight remove models. MWs are always cool though. Whip Coils seem… eh? Attacking before dying is nice but save the points unless you’ve got nothing better to put them on.
-Scarabs: Pretty buffed, now will be doing 3+ to hit and 5+ to wound at a minimum on every target. And cheaper now, so a big swarm isn’t as costly. Can make a great tarpit unit, and can grab that 5+ in cover.

Flyers
-Night Scythe: Points up, shooting is better. Durability is different. No longer safe behind “Snapshoot only”, now can be plinked down over turns. But high Wound count and 3+ makes it still relatively safe. Invasion Beams got a bit more flexibility, since you can “transport” multiple units and drop which one you need. Some tactics here.
-Doom Scythe: Got a lot more expensive, but the shooting is way better and more reliable. Much like the Night Scythe, starting on the board is great since you get it for the full game, and no more facings means that the Death Ray is going to be laying down the hurt against many units, all the time. Just be careful to not run off the board.

Elite
-Praetorians: A smidge more expensive, but a better statline other than being slightly slower. Rods are still good shooting, but either weapon is good in melee. I think these guys are pretty legit.
-Lychguard: Slight point jump, but have a lot of synergies with characters and got another wound. Shields are worse, but coming back with full wounds from RP sorta makes up for it. Both weapons are solid in melee, though Warscythes are obviously better.
-Flayed Ones: A fair sight more expensive, but now they can reliably use reserves, have synergies, and can bring back lost models. Yeah, worth it. Just as good against most infantry, a bit better against harder targets with the new wound chart.
-Deathmarks: Super good. Bumped up by a minor cost per model, but worth it. Traded wounding on 2+ out of reserves and Sniper for reliable Reserves and MWs on 6s, still can Intercept units, and can pick out Characters. Overall less killy than before, unless you roll hot on 6s, but the reliability more than makes up for it.
-Stalker: A big old brick now. Went up a fair amount in points, but is very hard to pop now and is way faster (10” until it gets hurt!). Still buffs shooting, and the melee profile got better with an actual AP value now and d3 damage. We’ll be seeing these aplenty.
-C’tan Deceiver: Powers got buffed, which is huge. Redeploy went from “in your deployment zone” to “give him and d3 units Infiltrate”, which is extremely dope. And an extremely good melee profile. And cheaper. And a Character so can hide behind models. Literally what is not to love? This guy rocks!
-C’tan Nightbringer: Trades the Deceiver’s tricky deployment for a beastly shooting and melee profile. Yeah, worthwhile. Once this guy gets into the enemy’s lines, he’s just going to take things apart.

Heavy Support
-Spyders: A bit middling. Up in points, statline went up to match. Repair is actually worthwhile now that vehicles have something between “full health” and “dead”. Gloom Prisms being straight Deny attempts is better than before. So a decent support unit, especially if you’re using Scarabs, but I’m not huge on them until I see them in action. Pass on the gun.
-Doomsday Arks: The sauce. Reasonable jump in points, but now way better survivability and more reliable shooting. With the new Deep Strike rules, it’s easy to protect against Drop Pods and the like, and Quantum Shielding protects against long range multi-damage things like Lascannons. Can get chipped down, but better overall and one of our better anti-heavy options.
-Annihilation Barges: Expensive and fairly fragile, but they put out a lot of shooting. Not too hot on them just yet, but time will tell. I think they might cost a bit much and we already have a lot of anti-infantry and weight of fire.
-Monoliths: 1000% improved. Deep Striking? Mass firepower? Utility? Yeah, this brick rocks. And good luck tying it down since it Flys for retreat and shoot. Lots of good AP shots plus a solid frame.
-Heavy Destroyers: Expensive, but once again one of our best mobile anti-heavy platforms. Not the only option with the improved Doom Scythe and Doomsday Ark, but still good. Range and speed, plus built in rerolls and a 2+ when standing in cover is solid. The price makes spamming them even harder than before, but multi-damage shooting is a bit scarce in our force so it might be worthwhile.

Lord of War
-Tesseract Vault: Up in price, up in durability sorta? All powers + spheres means this thing is going to put out a lot of hurt. Still, a quarter of your army in “regular” sized games is… wow.
-Obelisk: Slightly more expensive than a Monolith, for way more shots that hit better, but also no AP. Decent MW output if your opponent is spamming Flyers, but overall seems a bit disappointing. The reliable Reserves is nice, I suppose, but mine will probably not hit the table any time soon.


Overall I'm happy. Some stinkers, some iffy ones, but I'm already picturing builds that make me happy. Glad to see some of my favorite units return, as well.

[bluntpencil]

Deathwatch have cooler, easier to use interplay between unit types in their kill-teams than before... but they're not going to be able to take full advantage, since they can only squeeze into a Blackstar, and can't teleport into battle like the Black Spear could do before.

Terminators make Kill-Teams immune to morale. Bikes make them better at assaulting (Fall Back and Assault), Vanguards better at shooting (Fall Back and Shoot)... dammit GW, this is interesting, but it's a massive waste of points.

Also, Stalker Bolters are just longer ranged, Heavy bolters. No sniper tricks. :(

[Theodoric]

Kinda underwhelmed by the Necrons and Grey Knights, but mein gott have Adeptus Mechanicus received an improvement. Arc rifles are kinda meh now and the TUA looks friggin' sweet. The TUA and plasma guns are probably going to be the new mainstay for AdMech armies. I'm not so sure on how to build my sicarians now, infiltrators have the infiltrate rule which is an easy turn 1 charge after burst fire with stub carbines or fletchette pistols. But ruststalkers have the potential to unload mortal wounds (Which seems to be the new rend).
I suppose; many of the Skitarii gimmicks have been boosted, especially the omnispex. Phosphor rounds now simply ignoring cover's a big one too.
On the flipside, Vanguard only do more damage now instead of extra wounds, and Rangers' AP capability is a lot lower. Moving and shooting Transuranic Arquebus' is also not a thing anymore.

So far haven't found anything to complain about with Imperial Guard. :smallsmile: Organisation's pretty different and you're going to need a lot more FOC slots, but that just makes it easier to get the bigger detachments. But I'm saving going really in-depth with them until I have my hands on the actual book.
Techpriests and Ministorum Priests are now completely folded into the Mechanicus and Ministorum factions, though. All well and good since I can give Priests eviscerators again; still a great model.

[Requizen]

Anyone run into obvious cheese (a la Scatterbikes) yet? Everything is looking pretty decent all around, imo. I've seen some pretty strong units, but nothing that screams "spam this and win the game" to me.

[ZeltArruin]

Anyone run into obvious cheese (a la Scatterbikes) yet? Everything is looking pretty decent all around, imo. I've seen some pretty strong units, but nothing that screams "spam this and win the game" to me.

Scatterbikes appear to be 35 points each, and of course you can still upgrade the whole pack of them to Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Lasers.

[Bobby Baratheon]

The Fraglaunchers on the Land Raider Crusader are now an annoyingly terrible special rule instead of, you know, actual weaponry. Due to how it's worded, it only triggers when the Land Raider charges instead of, you know, the unit inside it. I don't know why that annoys me so much, but urgh. Land Raiders were supposed to be good this edition. Now they perform better, but at almost prohibitively higher prices. The Godhammer alone costs 356 points once you add in the wargear.

EDIT: Dw Knights weapons seem to have gotten more dangerous - the flail's damage (2 per hit) spills over to the unit, and at S6 AP-3 it might be fairly decent at helping the DW Knights clear out tarpits. The Maces of Absolution are amazing, too - x2 S, -2 AP and 3 Damage per hit. These guys seem like pretty deadly Character/MC/vehicle hunters, and still have the 2+/3++ to tarpit heroes and endure small arms fire. Oh, and they have 2 wounds now.

[LeSwordfish]

Jetbikes now have two wounds and a 4+ save. That's... I guess that's an improvement?

[Gauntlet]

Gun Drones look good. 8 points for two Pulse Carbines, and they are pretty good to buff. Fireblades and Drone Controllers make them a very solid source of strength 5. I get the impression Tau are gonna have their biggest problem dealing with armour, since all their sources of AP-3 or whatever cost a lot of points. I think Fusion Blasters are going to end up being the best option, unless Hammerheads can get there.

[Saambell]

So once again I find myself hating GW's instruction books for building the models. Making some of the new Devesators, and Oh Goodness, there's two errors in numbering I have seen already. First is labeling a leg section as 8, twice, when both are clearly different. Its actually the bent leg for a Missile Marine, but they label part 6 as being 8 for the general standing legs. Second, they tell you to use 73/74 as arms for both the Heavy Bolter AND the Grav Amp, when the arm very clearly does't fit for the grav amp, is on the wrong sprue, and you actually want 103/104 to build the Amp.

Not as bad as the time a Chimera kit instructions showed one less part for the tracks then there are. Luckily that wasn't my first time building the kit, so I didn't mess that up.

Why are they so bad at writing model kit instructions? I can understand Bandai Gundam Kit Instructions better, and those are in Japanese!

[Voidhawk]

The Godhammer alone costs 356 points once you add in the wargear.

The wargear rules are badly written, but it has been confirmed by GW that you need only pay wargear costs for additional things you buy and not gear a model starts with on its datasheet. So a normal Landraider needn't pay for lascannons.

[boomwolf]

Gun Drones look good. 8 points for two Pulse Carbines, and they are pretty good to buff. Fireblades and Drone Controllers make them a very solid source of strength 5. I get the impression Tau are gonna have their biggest problem dealing with armour, since all their sources of AP-3 or whatever cost a lot of points. I think Fusion Blasters are going to end up being the best option, unless Hammerheads can get there.

Yea, my tau have a serious flux of quality light to medium "infantry" in fire warrior strike teams, drones and surprisingly stealth suits and vespids, led by fireblades and darkstrides...

However, very little "bigger" units seem to be worth much.
Longstrike-and you can only have on of, crisis commanders and coldstars seems decent (all are HQ...), anything else seems horribly overpriced.



I'm sorry, but these indexes are a lame excuse of a replacement until actual rules arrive.
Especially for the things that "supposedly" have actual rules-yet not really (1ksons biggest drop. and yea, I know I can keep casting smite, but on an aspiring sorcerer the expected damage to you own army is about equal to the expected damage to the enemy!)

[Bobby Baratheon]

The wargear rules are badly written, but it has been confirmed by GW that you need only pay wargear costs for additional things you buy and not gear a model starts with on its datasheet. So a normal Landraider needn't pay for lascannons.

That is reassuring. Thanks for the clarification.

EDIT: That does mean, though, that HB Razorbacks only cost 65 points as the twin heavy bolter is its starting gear on its datasheet. That's a very reasonable price for the razorback, considering how much other vehicles prices have gone up. I'm probably going to start the core of my 8th Dark Angels army with 3-4 razorbacks with 5 man tactical squads with combi-weapons and one special weapon, especially since comb-weapons now give you a unlimited uses of the special part.

EDIT2: Well, now I'm just confused. Wouldn't have been easier just to factor it into the base cost of the unit? Oh well.

[Requizen]

The wargear rules are badly written, but it has been confirmed by GW that you need only pay wargear costs for additional things you buy and not gear a model starts with on its datasheet. So a normal Landraider needn't pay for lascannons.

Nope, you need to "buy" the basic weaponry.

Check out @GeekJockPete's Tweet: https://twitter.com/GeekJockPete/status/869606848349057024?s=09

[Adrastos42]

Imgur isn't loading properly for me anymore so I can't check, but it seemed like Primaris marines don't fit into any transports, not even land raiders. So I have to assume they'll get their own at some point.