Reserves of Strength Question

[Yogibear41]

If I have a base Caster level of 20 and use the Reserves of Strength feat to increase my caster level by 1, does a Fireball I cast do 11d6 or 21d6 damage?

[Kayblis]

RAW is, as usual, inconclusive. You can make an argument for both. RAI it would be 11d6, because that's how the feat's supposed to work, giving small increases for your time or HP. It's really not worth it RAI unless you're really low lv.

[NOhara24]

If I have a base Caster level of 20 and use the Reserves of Strength feat to increase my caster level by 1, does a Fireball I cast do 11d6 or 21d6 damage?

It's pretty clear to me...

"A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6)..."

"You can exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell with this feat..."

So yes. You can cast a 21d6 fireball at the cost of not being able to take any actions, at all, the following round. Unless you need sudden burst damage, it would be better to just cast a regular 10d6 fireball and then cast another the following round.

[Kaleph]

I'd even argue that you don't need to increase your CL and so you don't get stunned, but still you exceed the spell's cap until your normal CL. It may work by RAW, but RAI I'd never allow it.

[The_Jette]

It's pretty clear to me...

"A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6)..."

"You can exceed the normal level-fixed limits of a spell with this feat..."

So yes. You can cast a 21d6 fireball at the cost of not being able to take any actions, at all, the following round. Unless you need sudden burst damage, it would be better to just cast a regular 10d6 fireball and then cast another the following round.

Yeah, it's spelled out in the feat description, where it says that a 9th level Wizard casting Fireball with a +3 increase would deal 12d6 damage. At level 20, though, there are probably better options. Delayed Blast Fireball, for instance, has a max of 20d6. Now, if you're in a battle where you've used the majority of your spells, and all you have left is a level 3 Fireball, then it'd be worth it at the time, especially to increase the damage from a max of 10d6 to a max of your level. But, that's a very situational case.

[Deophaun]

RAW is, as usual, inconclusive. You can make an argument for both. RAI it would be 11d6, because that's how the feat's supposed to work, giving small increases for your time or HP. It's really not worth it RAI unless you're really low lv.
It's worth it "RAI," just not on fireball. There are lots of buff spells with good duration that have increments of 1/3 levels, like a Persisted divine favor or armor of darkness.

Yeah, it's spelled out in the feat description, where it says that a 9th level Wizard casting Fireball with a +3 increase would deal 12d6 damage.
That's not spelling it out in the description. A 15th level Wizard with a +3 increase doing 18d6 versus 13d6 would.

[The_Jette]

That's not spelling it out in the description. A 15th level Wizard with a +3 increase doing 18d6 versus 13d6 would.

The wording is that your increased caster level affects all level-based variables of the spell. So, the question is, are the level based variables now increased to your fully adjusted caster level, or just increase by an amount equal to the increase?

If that's the situation, I think that the reasonable interpretation is that it's your newly increased caster level. If it's just increased by the +1 (or whatever) then it's not really worth the round of stun. If it's your total caster level, after the increase, then it's worth it as a last ditch effort. If you don't kill them now, you're probably going to be dead by your next round, anyways. Outside of that specific scenario, it's not really worth it, either way. But, that's just my opinion.

[Deophaun]

The wording is that your increased caster level affects all level-based variables of the spell. So, the question is, are the level based variables now increased to your fully adjusted caster level, or just increase by an amount equal to the increase?
No, the question is "Did the developers mean what they were saying?" We all know what the text says. No one here has said RAW says otherwise. Instead, there's a distinction being made between RAW and RAI.

As usual for 3.5, the example given is useless for this because it's written for a standard case, not an extreme one. It has no illustrative purpose if you want to ask whether or not the developers meant it to break the game.

If that's the situation, I think that the reasonable interpretation is that it's your newly increased caster level. If it's just increased by the +1 (or whatever) then it's not really worth the round of stun.
You're telling me that getting a +4 enhancement bonus on your weapon for 16 hours instead of a +3 for 13 hours is not worth three rounds of stun at the beginning of the day? What? Are you routinely ambushed right after morning oblations?

Just because something is not useful for fireball does not make it useless.

[The_Jette]

No, the question is "Did the developers mean what they were saying?" We all know what the text says. No one here has said RAW says otherwise. Instead, there's a distinction being made between RAW and RAI.

I'm sorry. I thought the question was what the feat did. I don't see the RAI questions being especially useful, except from a DM asking for other opinions. For RAI, the DM of the game is the only voice that matters. My mistake.


As usual for 3.5, the example given is useless for this because it's written for a standard case, not an extreme one. It has no illustrative purpose if you want to ask whether or not the developers meant it to break the game.

You're telling me that getting a +4 enhancement bonus on your weapon for 16 hours instead of a +3 for 13 hours is not worth three rounds of stun at the beginning of the day? What? Are you routinely ambushed right after morning oblations?

Just because something is not useful for fireball does not make it useless.

No, I don't see a +4 bonus instead of a +3 being especially useful, even for an extra 3 hours. And, yes, I'm sure that if I looked through the spells, I'm sure that there would be a few that the feat would be useful for. But, compared to other abilities, that don't require a dump feat like Iron Will to get, I think it's lacking in oomph.

And, yes. The number of times that I've been ambushed is almost the exact same as the number of times I've been ambushed in the morning. And, the rest were at night when looking for a place to set up camp. To be fair, though, my DM's have generally had a serious lack of imagination. Our quests tend to be "go save that village from bad guys/ monsters" or "you've been magically teleported to somewhere you don't know, and need to find your way home". Seriously, we were trapped in an unknown area three times in the same campaign.

[Deophaun]

No, I don't see a +4 bonus instead of a +3 being especially useful, even for an extra 3 hours. And, yes, I'm sure that if I looked through the spells, I'm sure that there would be a few that the feat would be useful for. But, compared to other abilities, that don't require a dump feat like Iron Will to get, I think it's lacking in oomph.
So you don't think having an additional +1 enhancement bonus to attack, an additional +1 luck bonus to attack and damage, an additional +1 to deflection bonus, an additional +1 moral bonus to saves, and an additional +3 to BAB are useful? In addition to increased resistance to dispelling and longer duration. You wouldn't spend two feats to do all that? And that's off the top of my head.

Now, go with what you think makes this "worth it":

Throw in a bead of karma at level 20. Just a bead of karma. Let's not talk about things like consumptive field.

You've got a +6 enhancement bonus on your weapon instead of +5, so you overcome epic. You have a total of a +9 luck bonus to attack and damage (+5 more than you would have). You have a +6 morale bonus to saves from conviction (+1 more). A +10 deflection bonus to AC (+1 more). And your BAB is +27/+22/+17/+12/+7/+2 (Instead of +23/+18/+13/+8/+3).

You look at this and say "that's about right" for two feats.


And, yes. The number of times that I've been ambushed is almost the exact same as the number of times I've been ambushed in the morning.
I did not ask if you were only ambushed in the morning. I asked if you were routinely ambushed in the morning right after you've prepared your spells for the day. I don't care if the three times you were ever ambushed happened to be when the sun was rising. I care if you wake up, the bad guys are surrounding you, but are considerate enough to leave you alone for an hour to pray, but not long enough for your to cast any daily buffs, and that happens for the majority (>50%) of your adventuring days. That is what I asked.

[The_Jette]

So you don't think having an additional +1 enhancement bonus to attack, an additional +1 luck bonus to attack and damage, an additional +1 to deflection bonus, an additional +1 moral bonus to saves, and an additional +3 to BAB are useful? In addition to increased resistance to dispelling and longer duration. You wouldn't spend two feats to do all that? And that's off the top of my head.

Now, go with what you think makes this "worth it":

Throw in a bead of karma at level 20. Just a bead of karma. Let's not talk about things like consumptive field.

You've got a +6 enhancement bonus on your weapon instead of +5, so you overcome epic. You have a total of a +9 luck bonus to attack and damage (+5 more than you would have). You have a +6 morale bonus to saves from conviction (+1 more). A +10 deflection bonus to AC (+1 more). And your BAB is +27/+22/+17/+12/+7/+2 (Instead of +23/+18/+13/+8/+3).

You look at this and say "that's about right" for two feats.


I did not ask if you were only ambushed in the morning. I asked if you were routinely ambushed in the morning right after you've prepared your spells for the day. I don't care if the three times you were ever ambushed happened to be when the sun was rising. I care if you wake up, the bad guys are surrounding you, but are considerate enough to leave you alone for an hour to pray, but not long enough for your to cast any daily buffs, and that happens for the majority (>50%) of your adventuring days. That is what I asked.

Dude, you're being really aggressive right now, and kind of rude. First off, the max of +5 bonus to a weapon is a weapon enhancement maximum, not a spell maximum. So, that doesn't really help any past level 15 except to increase the duration by a few hours, something that is nice, but not especially. I'm not sure what spell you're referring to which offers a scaling luck bonus to attack and damage. The only spell I know that increases your BAB is Divine Power, which makes your BAB equal your CL with no limit anyways. And, RAW, your iterative attacks only increase until you get 4 attacks per round. Plus, Divine Power only lasts one round per CL, so the time that it would get extended out is wasted by your being stunned. But, lets assume that your DM lets you get an extra attack. Let's even say you have a bead of karma. That sets your BAB to exactly what you said. So, you get an extra attack at 20 less than your highest attack, and another at 25 less. No, that doesn't seem especially awesome to me, especially since the duration makes it so that you have to cast that during combat if you want to use it. I'm sure that you could work something out with Persistent Spell, but then it would be a 10th level spell, which is epic. Even with DMM, that's 7 uses of Turn Undead you don't have any more. So, building your character around this concept, and with a DM who lets you have iterative attacks past four, which is against RAW, you could have a one trick pony. If that's what you're into, more power to you. The fact is, at most you're getting an exta one or two to an already really nice bonus, and it'll last a slightly longer amount of time. At tenth level, the difference between a spell lasting ten hours and eleven hours doesn't seem especially awesome to me. That's all I was saying.

[Deophaun]

Dude, you're being really aggressive right now, and kind of rude.
Lol. If I'm seen as being "rude," it's because you've demonstrated that I must be very, very, very clear. Very repetitive. Because the bandwidth at the other end cannot handle the output.

First off, the max of +5 bonus to a weapon is a weapon enhancement maximum, not a spell maximum.
No, it's not. +6 weapons exist. They're epic.

The only spell I know that increases your BAB is Divine Power, which makes your BAB equal your CL with no limit anyways.
No, it was errated to not do that.

And, RAW, your iterative attacks only increase until you get 4 attacks per round.
No. This is why, past level 20, you cease to gain BAB and instead gain Epic bonuses. Because that would happen.

This is why the only thing in the game that lets you break +20/+15/+10/+5 is from a third-party.

Plus, Divine Power only lasts one round per CL, so the time that it would get extended out is wasted by your being stunned.
You're right. It's not like there's some feat out there that can let divine power last for, say, 24 hours. And certainly, if there was, no one would ever think of that combination.

I'm sure that you could work something out with Persistent Spell, but then it would be a 10th level spell, which is epic. Even with DMM, that's 7 uses of Turn Undead you don't have any more.
This is funny. You stumble upon it, but obviously have zero clue as to how it's used.

I guess it shouldn't be surprising that you cannot see a use for this feat if even the CoDzilla escapes your grasp.

As I said, bandwidth issues.

[The_Jette]

Lol. If I'm seen as being "rude," it's because you've demonstrated that I must be very, very, very clear. Very repetitive. Because the bandwidth at the other end cannot handle the output.

No, it's not. +6 weapons exist. They're epic.

No, it was errated to not do that.

No. This is why, past level 20, you cease to gain BAB and instead gain Epic bonuses. Because that would happen.

This is why the only thing in the game that lets you break +20/+15/+10/+5 is from a third-party.

You're right. It's not like there's some feat out there that can let divine power last for, say, 24 hours. And certainly, if there was, no one would ever think of that combination.

This is funny. You stumble upon it, but obviously have zero clue as to how it's used.

I guess it shouldn't be surprising that you cannot see a use for this feat if even the CoDzilla escapes your grasp.

As I said, bandwidth issues.

Yeah. Bandwidth. That must be it. Point of interest, I looked it up again. Divine Power only increases you BAB to your level, not career level. So, this doesn't work anyways. And, you rally should stop being so rude. I've disagreed with your claims, not attacked you personally. You, however, have insinuated quite a rude statement in regards to my intelligence. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so again. It adds nothing to the conversation.

[Necroticplague]

No. This is why, past level 20, you cease to gain BAB and instead gain Epic bonuses. Because that would happen.

This is why the only thing in the game that lets you break +20/+15/+10/+5 is from a third-party.
Ignoring most of the back-and-forth because I see no reason to get involved, this part is wrong. Not the part about getting epic attack bonus instead of base attack bonus, but that theoretically getting more base attack could give you more attacks. Here's the exact wording on getting more attacks from higher BaB:

Base Attack Bonus

A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.
You explicitly gain attacks at 6/11/16, not "an extra attack at 6 BaB, and every 5 thereafter". Getting it higher wouldn't give more attacks, because you've already passed all the milestones that can give attacks.

[Yogibear41]

Glad that my question has sparked such a serious debate :smallbiggrin:

On the note of getting more attacks with a high (non-epic bab) Monsters that advance by RHD instead of class levels continue to gain normal bab/saves instead of the epic version, IE a 30 hd Outsider or Dragon would have a BAB of 30. The first example I have found of a creature that uses manufacted weapons and not natural attacks is the Aspect of Dispater from FC2, a 28 hd Outsider with a BAB of 28 is listed as only having 4 attacks per round.

[shaikujin]

My 2 coppers:
The OP's fireball will do 21d6 damage.

It's an amazing feat for optimizers.

Ignoring cheesy CL loops, simply consider this crude example for CL boost -
A) CL40 from Circle Magic
B) Increase that CL40 to CL80 via Consumptive Field (using Reserves of Strength).

Now look at this handbook for the huge list of spells which becomes uncapped:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3519.0



The feat is a good candidate to look into even for less optimized characters. Iron Will is a feat tax for many PrCs already, meaning there's a good chance the character will need/already have this feat. Besides, there's Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will for 3k gp. There are many ways to get stunning immunity. I trust characters looking into this feat will have no problems dealing with the 1d6 damage either.

[Thurbane]

http://i66.tinypic.com/2d0nj8h.jpg

[The_Jette]

My 2 coppers:
The OP's fireball will do 21d6 damage.

It's an amazing feat for optimizers.

Ignoring cheesy CL loops, simply consider this crude example for CL boost -
A) CL40 from Circle Magic
B) Increase that CL40 to CL80 via Consumptive Field (using Reserves of Strength).

Now look at this handbook for the huge list of spells which becomes uncapped:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3519.0



The feat is a good candidate to look into even for less optimized characters. Iron Will is a feat tax for many PrCs already, meaning there's a good chance the character will need/already have this feat. Besides, there's Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will for 3k gp. There are many ways to get stunning immunity. I trust characters looking into this feat will have no problems dealing with the 1d6 damage either.

That's an interesting example. And, getting immunity to stun in order to swap it for the 1d6 damage is a plausible use. Although, I think in your example the CL would go to 82 (since you'd need to add at least 1 to your CL, which is already at 40). In this situation, you'd need someone nearby who's dying. So... at the very least non-evil PC's probably wouldn't be using this hack. It'd be a pretty good NPC ability. But, my point was just that I don't personally see it as really useful for a PC. It would be fun to throw around an optimization theory board, but wouldn't see much use in a real game. Again, though, that's just my opinion on the situation. The ability to break the CL limit on spells is nice, I'll admit. I've just rarely seen games get high enough level to really be able to take advantage of that aspect.

[shaikujin]

Yeah, consumptive field and its greater cousin are definitely evil spells (and I don't mean just them having the Evil descriptor).

If that's a concern, there are ways to use them in "beneficial" ways for less evil characters -

- offer the local poultry slaughterhouse your free and non-messy services. As a bonus, it kills germs and parasites too!

- Goodman John, your granary is infested with rats you say? I'll help you for free! Farmer Joe has the same problem? No worries, I'll head over to his farm tomorrow! Oh, Freeman Jake has heard and needs help? Sure! I'm free next Wednesday. No, no, you don't have to pay me, being able to do this helps me immensely too, that's reward enough.

- your village needs clean and fresh water? Nearest water source is a river infested with piranhas? No problems! I'll just cast this spell upstream, it'll kill the piranhas and sterilize the water at the same time!

(ok, examples above are meant to be cheeky rather than practical, but you get the idea. Of course, note that DnD doesn't care if your intentions or outcomes are good, if it's an Evil spell, it's still an evil act).

Less fussy characters can use a few bags of tricks, summon vermin swarms, look for ant nests etc.



The CL boost using Consumptive Field is just a crude example though, so I left out the CL from class levels. Consumptive Field is lvl 4, its greater cousin is lvl 7. Depending on classes used, CL from class levels will be higher.

As to your concerns regarding this being theory, I understand where you are coming from, but to me, both Circle Magic and Consumptive Fields are considered practical optimization, not TO. TO is where CL loops come into the picture.

Yes, different groups I've played with have different optimization ceilings. Certain PO tricks aren't even tolerated at some tables (like shock trooper power attack). Some tables don't stay together for more than a couple of sessions either, and players won't ever level up to level 4 spells. So I understand what you mean that it's not for everyone. In the group I play mostly with though, main DM uses TO mobs against us.

Having said that, these aren't the only PO methods to boost CL either. Karma beads, practiced caster, magic tattoo, domains etc are all valid for PO. Some don't need that high a character level. Seeing that this feat is from Dragonlance (which has a number of overpowered options), I would guess that the OP's table plays at a higher than average level of optimization, and I hope the info I'd provided was helpful.

[Yogibear41]

How about this as a side question: can an Artificer benefit from this feat when using his Infusions?

[Necroticplague]

How about this as a side question: can an Artificer benefit from this feat when using his Infusions?
Yes.


Infusions: An artificer is not a spellcaster, but he does have the ability to imbue items with magical infusions. Infusions are neither arcane nor divine; they are drawn from the artificer infusion list (see Chapter 5: Magic). They function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells. For example, an infusion can be dispelled, it will not function in an antimagic area, and an artificer must make a Concentration check if injured while imbuing an item with an infusion. So, following the 'just like spells', would have them be able to be improved by this.