Holy undead?

[MaxMAnAtArms]

I was playing around with the idea for a necromancer and I see typically evil and etc etc. But I remember seeing a post about a dnd story. The person was brought back to life as a skeleton. Pushed itself out of its own tomb and found out it was years past there death. Rebuke undead didn't work and from what people found out he wasnt evil or magical. He just was un"alive".

Is there any form of undead like this that isn't under normal undead rules? Or did i just run into someone's home brew?

It was supposedly one of those God or something brought them back to complete or finishing something stick I believe.


I wasnt sure if it was actually a real thing or i just read some awesome homebrew thing.Thank you all for giving me the information i was looking for. Thank you very much!

Its not exactly what i was looking for but its good to know i wasnt crazy! :smallbiggrin:

[prototype00]

Deathless are the "good" undead from the Book of Exalted deeds. They also make up the hive mind of Elf Ancestor-gods in Eberron.

[Coidzor]

If you want a Good-aligned Necromancer, the Redeemer of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14) bit of homebrew is nice.

Otherwise, Ghostwalk has some varieties of ghost-person that can be of any alignment and there are a number of Deathless in Eberron and the Book of Exalted Deeds. Maybe Champions of Valor as well.

The Sacred Watcher PrC is probably the easiest way to become a Deathless, but its capstone ability is to permanently remove a character from play.

[Afgncaap5]

The Sacred Watcher PrC is probably the easiest way to become a Deathless, but its capstone ability is to permanently remove a character from play.

I've always sorta wanted a DM who'd be willing to cooperate on a story arc that let the capstone coincide with the character doing something epic and monumentally "worth" saying "And now, my work here is done..."

Sadly, most DMs don't have the patience, and the last level is just sort of... done.

Having said that, a lot of the core rules for the Deathless type make it pretty easy to imagine "good" versions of most classic undead varieties. Zombies and Skeletons in particular would translate really well.

[Zanos]

Deathless are the "good" undead from the Book of Exalted deeds. They also make up the hive mind of Elf Ancestor-gods in Eberron.
They're also stupid as hell. Complete cop out. You know what I call something powered by positive energy? Alive. Bringing someone back from the dead by infusing them with positive energy is called raise dead, not create deathless.

If you want to be a good undead part of what makes it interesting is the conflict with your nature as a thing of Evil. They're powered by Evil magic, but (some) are sentient and capable of making moral choices.

[Necroticplague]

If you want to be a good undead part of what makes it interesting is the conflict with your nature as a thing of Evil. They're powered by Evil magic, but (some) are sentient and capable of making moral choices.

I thought they were powered by Negative Energy, which is Neutral (as it comes from an inner plane, not an outer plane).

[exelsisxax]

I thought they were powered by Negative Energy, which is Neutral (as it comes from an inner plane, not an outer plane).

They are powered by positive energy, supplied by adherents to the religion of the Undying Court.

[Andezzar]

I thought they were powered by Negative Energy, which is Neutral (as it comes from an inner plane, not an outer plane).True and additionally while all undead ping as evil on Detect Evil, this does not mean that they have to be of Evil alignment. Those two traits are totally separate from each other. So even a Lich could eventually become Good by doing good, but would still ping as Evil on that spell.

Another canonical non-evil undead are Baelnorn. Mechanically they are elven liches but they come to be a bit differently. Basically it is the typical ghost origin story (needs to right a wrong, protect someone important so cannot move on) but the undead retains a physical body.

[Zanos]

I thought they were powered by Negative Energy, which is Neutral (as it comes from an inner plane, not an outer plane).
Depends on the writer, but animate dead is an [Evil] spell either way.


They are powered by positive energy, supplied by adherents to the religion of the Undying Court.
Deathless are, but I'm talking about undead in that part of my post.

[Afgncaap5]

Well, "Create Undead" is an evil spell; regardless of its usage, the process of animating a corpse in that fashion is an evil act. The actual negative energy used for animating the corpse, however, isn't evil, just as positive energy isn't good. That's why Lawful Good clerics of Wee Jas spontaneously cast Inflict spells instead of Cure spells; the energy has less to do with alignment and more to do with what it's used for and what it represents.

[ATHATH]

If you want a Good-aligned Necromancer, the Redeemer of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14) bit of homebrew is nice.

Otherwise, Ghostwalk has some varieties of ghost-person that can be of any alignment and there are a number of Deathless in Eberron and the Book of Exalted Deeds. Maybe Champions of Valor as well.

The Risen Matyr PrC is probably the easiest way to become a Deathless, but its capstone ability is to permanently remove a character from play.
Fixed that for you.

[ATHATH]

That's why Lawful Good clerics of Wee Jas spontaneously cast Inflict spells instead of Cure spells; the energy has less to do with alignment and more to do with what it's used for and what it represents.
Wait, is that an actual RAW thing? If so, where's it from?

On a side note about the whole "it's about what it's used for" thing: I view Pelor as being the elemental lord of positive energy. Thus, his hatred for undead stems less from most undead being evil as much as them being powered by the element that's opposite to his own (sort of like how the elemental lord of fire hates water). Since the world is predominantly filled with creatures that are healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy, positive energy is viewed as a Good thing that heals people. After centuries of people believing that positive energy is Good, the plane of positive energy (and thus Pelor and positive energy in general) actually started to become Good. The opposite thing happened with negative energy- since it harms most stuff, it is viewed as something destructive and Evil, thus causing the negative energy plane, undead, etc. to actually become (inherently) Evil.

Note that the above is just my headcanon, and probably conflicts with a bunch of fluff that I haven't seen yet (doesn't the negative energy plane border some Evil planes or something? Maybe it gradually moved there after becoming associated with Evil).

[Afgncaap5]

Wait, is that an actual RAW thing? If so, where's it from?

You know, I thought it was but maybe I was wrong. I was pretty sure the Player's Handbook said somewhere that Good clerics of Wee Jas spontaneously cast Inflict instead of Cure, but looking again I can only find that being said for Lawful Neutral clerics.

Having said that, if nothing else it looks like it's canonical that patron deity can have some say in what sort of energy you wind up channeling, even if my memory was wrong. Sorry 'bout that.

[Zanos]

Although now that you bring that up, Evil clerics spontaneously channeling negative energy and rebuking, Good clerics spontaneously channeling positive energy and turning, and neutral clerics getting to chose is some decent evidence that the energies are associated with alignments. I know the planes aren't given alignment traits, but this is one of the reasons I mentioned that the books are inconsistent about whether or not the energies are Good or Evil.

In any case, creating Undead is always Evil. But as mentioned, the Undead themselves can be Good. It's just hard when you need to drink blood to survive.

[The Eye]

Mummies were that in ancient egyptian religion, and if I recall correctly they were not harmed by the positive energy plane.

[ZamielVanWeber]

There are, rare, good aligned undead but they tend to be liches (baelnorn, archliches, and good liches from Libris Mortis). Note that Libris Mortis' good liches are immune to turning and treat rebuking as turning mechanically. Mummies have nothing compelling them to be evil, even if you use the consumption rules from Libris Mortis, so they could easily run around and do good works. In a bit of a whoopsie, there are a number of non-evil followers of Nerull, including a mummy, pictured in Complete Champion.

[Coidzor]

Mummies were that in ancient egyptian religion, and if I recall correctly they were not harmed by the positive energy plane.

No Undead are harmed by the Positive Energy Plane as I recall. Only living things get exploded by being healed too much.

Which is a bit ironical, since while parts of the Negative Energy Plane are dangerous even to Undead, a Lich is just fine hanging around in the Positive Energy Plane or even hiding their phylactery there.

[The Eye]

No Undead are harmed by the Positive Energy Plane as I recall. Only living things get exploded by being healed too much.

Which is a bit ironical, since while parts of the Negative Energy Plane are dangerous even to Undead, a Lich is just fine hanging around in the Positive Energy Plane or even hiding their phylactery there.

Really? I remembered that they were harmed like people do in the negative plane and healed like the positive plane in the negative one.

[Necroticplague]

Really? I remembered that they were harmed like people do in the negative plane and healed like the positive plane in the negative one.

A reasonable houserule, but it's not the case. The PeP gives Fast Healing, which works for all creatures, including undead.

[The Viscount]

Mummies were that in ancient egyptian religion, and if I recall correctly they were not harmed by the positive energy plane.
Mummies are an interesting monster in that they are only "usually lawful evil" one of maybe only two undead that are not always evil of some sort (besides variant liches), so this one time WotC didn't screw up.


Otherwise, Ghostwalk has some varieties of ghost-person that can be of any alignment and there are a number of Deathless in Eberron and the Book of Exalted Deeds. Maybe Champions of Valor as well.

You actually don't need Ghostwalk. Regular old ghost template on the srd can have any alignment, making it the only other undead like that (to my knowledge).

EDIT: Ok there's at least one more, the mumia template from Ghostwalk is "usually evil."

[Remuko]

Mummies are an interesting monster in that they are only "usually lawful evil" one of maybe only two undead that are not always evil of some sort (besides variant liches), so this one time WotC didn't screw up.



You actually don't need Ghostwalk. Regular old ghost template on the srd can have any alignment, making it the only other undead like that (to my knowledge).

EDIT: Ok there's at least one more, the mumia template from Ghostwalk is "usually evil."

It doesn't matter what any of those undead entries say. "Always evil" doesn't mean "100% of the time evil no matter what". Anything listed as always evil can still be good if it has sentience it can choose to stop having an evil alignment and if it doesn't have an evil subtype it won't ping as evil either.

[Thurbane]

Just a side note regarding Mummies: the link to the positive material plan may be from 1E. Their 1E (or maybe 2E?) MM entry called out that they are powered by the positive material plane. AFAIK, this does not exist anywhere in 3E, but may be lingering in the collective unconscious. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

It doesn't matter what any of those undead entries say. "Always evil" doesn't mean "100% of the time evil no matter what". Anything listed as always evil can still be good if it has sentience it can choose to stop having an evil alignment and if it doesn't have an evil subtype it won't ping as evil either.

I think Detect Evil might still detect a non-Evil Undead creature as Evil, but if it's not Evil, it wouldn't be affected by effects that only work on Evil creatures but don't have a clause for how they affect Undead.


Just a side note regarding Mummies: the link to the positive material plan may be from 1E. Their 1E (or maybe 2E?) MM entry called out that they are powered by the positive material plane. AFAIK, this does not exist anywhere in 3E, but may be lingering in the collective unconscious. :smallwink:

Neat variant to play with, then. :smallamused:

[Zanos]

Yes, all creatures of the Undead type detect as Evil, regardless of their actual alignment. They don't count as Evil for the purposes of all effects though, like [Evil] creatures.

[Thurbane]

It always amuses me that mindless undead like Skeletons and Zombies are Neutral Evil.

IMHO, they should be about as evil as a mindless Golem.

Sure, they might Detect as evil due to their power source, but to ascribe a moral view to a mindless creature by giving it an actual alignment always struck me as nonsensical.



In regards to the OP, it shouldn't be too hard to house rule a Deathless version of Necropolitan. Obviously, the fluff and spells involved in their ritual would need to be changed to get rid of the Evil/unholy connotations. Resist Control becomes a Sacred bonus, and Unnatural Resilience drops the clause about being healed by negative energy.

As Deathless are healed by positive energy, the DM might want to impose a flat +1 LA to the template (in place of the level/XP loss), as standard curing effects are generally easier to come by for PCs than the negative effects that heal undead (with Dread Necromancers and Evil Clerics being an obvious exception: assuming one is specifically trying to avoid being Undead, that these character types are unlikely to be his travelling companions).