What 1 spell would be most useful in RL?

[Xar Zarath]

As it says on the tin, what 1 spell would you find to be most useful in your real life? It can be any spell from any class spell list except no epics.

Bear in mind, you can only have the 1 spell, no feats, class abilities or anything extra that comes with it. When "casting" this spell, it will be as if you bear the minimum "level" for it but only for that 1 spell chosen.

XP and focus/material costs, if any, have to be paid as appropriately.

For myself, if I were more morally sideways I would say Dominate Monster, simply because that's very useful but also kind of evil.

If not, I would say its a toss up between Tongues (languages for ever) or Greater Teleport (free rides forever)

So yeah those are my toss-ups, though really if forced to pick one I would go with Dominate Monster (heh, I'm pretty heartless aren't I, although could do some good with that)

[Tiri]

Miracle.

Presumably I wouldn't be able to use the parts of it that require XP, as I doubt I have XP in real life, but having access to all the spells it can duplicate would be very useful.

I would have picked Shapechange, but I don't know where I'd get that jade circlet.

[Xar Zarath]

Sorry, on my phone and would like to add an admentment. You can also pick the spell you want (only can still pick 1) from any edition of dnd, dragon/dungeon mag, Pathfinder, or any 3rd party ogl.

[Nupo]

True resurrection.

[khadgar567]

Depend on my mood but probably true wish for utility purposes like finding way to learn rest of the spells

[Shalist]

Is this to be used at-will, or a fixed number of times per day? RAW literalness/cheese allowed (i.e. fabricating/crafting rules that ignore the conservation of mass, etc.)?

Either way, ditto for miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm). To clarify, unlike wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) it doesn't cost 5000exp if you're just duplicating other spells with it, and the limitations on that are generous enough that you can use it for teleport, greater, and legions of other spells besides:


A miracle can do any of the following things.

* Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
* Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
* Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
* Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component. If we actually had to pick just one spell though, 'bestow curse, greater' if RAW cheese (cursing yourself/others with permanent beneficial affects)' is allowed. Otherwise; Heal, mass for healing everyone within 110' radius (25' + 5'/lvl) sphere of you of a large variety of serious ailments. If it's at-will, set up something like those airport conveyor belts (with 'lanes' above/below/etc., not just on either side of you) and you could be mass-healing an awful lot of folks in a given hour. Regardless what you did with it though, with fatigue being constantly eliminated, you'd no long need to sleep (or even rest more than a few seconds when exercising).

Hallow would be nice if you could attach spells to it, but since you only get the one spell...*shrug*. Is Old-school polymorph broken enough to permanently turn people into things with innately powerful spellcasting, i.e. metallic dragons or solars?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Shapechange or pre-errata greater metamorphosis.

[The_Jette]

Magnificent Mansion. Place the door wherever you want it, then have a rent free mansion with invisible servants who serve enough food to feed a small army, and you only have to cast it once a day. It's got a really easy to find focus, too. All you really need to do, if you want electricity and wifi, is rent a studio apartment and place the mansion entrance at the door to the closet. Then, you'd have access to running water, too. Heck, if you don't want to have to pay for a car, you can put the mansion right next to your work, and nobody would know it was there, because the entrance is invisible once you close the door behind you.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Shapechange seems the obvious choice, especially if one accepts the argument that spellcasting is an extraordinary ability - one can simply turn into a creature with high level casting ability (e.g. a Planetar, which casts as a 17th level cleric - I'm sure there are better forms if one looks harder) and go to town. Even if you don't, the sheer number of abilities it does give you access to means only Miracle can even begin to rival it. Wish and Greater Metamorphosis don't really work very well, because we presumably have little or no xp to burn.

[legomaster00156]

Magnificent Mansion and Greater Teleport are both great options.

[Tiri]

Shapechange seems the obvious choice, especially if one accepts the argument that spellcasting is an extraordinary ability - one can simply turn into a creature with high level casting ability (e.g. a Planetar, which casts as a 17th level cleric - I'm sure there are better forms if one looks harder) and go to town. Even if you don't, the sheer number of abilities it does give you access to means only Miracle can even begin to rival it. Wish and Greater Metamorphosis don't really work very well, because we presumably have little or no xp to burn.

Shapechange, however, is dependent on your ability to find a jade circlet worth 1500 GP. That's a pretty big limitation.

[Thunder999]

Polymorph any object seems like it could be pretty useful.

[RoboEmperor]

Wish

1. Change your race so you're immortal
2. Free wish loops.
3. You are literally a god in this world.


Shapechange, however, is dependent on your ability to find a jade circlet worth 1500 GP. That's a pretty big limitation.

You can't shapechange into something that doesn't exist. Planetars and Zodars don't exist irl.

Miracle also fails because you literally need a deity to exist. God, Zeus, etc's existence is not proven.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can't shapechange into something that doesn't exist. Planetars and Zodars don't exist irl.

Miracle also fails because you literally need a deity to exist. God, Zeus, etc's existence is not proven.
Uh, no, that is not how it works. You can shapechange into most anything, regardless of whether you've seen it (which is the only measure of existence we have), and you don't need a deity to cast miracle, as every arcane caster/cleric of an ideal proves.

[Amphetryon]

Cure Disease would be entirely adequate, IMO.

[legomaster00156]

I think you do need a deity, or some deity-like greater power, for Miracle to function. I don't think mere concepts work: there must be some higher power governing these concepts.

You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

[Gildedragon]

Miracle is the obvious choice
If not that then Mass Heal (or just Heal)

[RoboEmperor]

Uh, no, that is not how it works. You can shapechange into most anything, regardless of whether you've seen it (which is the only measure of existence we have), and you don't need a deity to cast miracle, as every arcane caster/cleric of an ideal proves.

Yeah, you can shapechange into anything that exists. Otherwise I can imagine a 1hd monster with an at-will wish and gate and shapechange into that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yeah, you can shapechange into anything that exists. Otherwise I can imagine a 1hd monster with an at-will wish and gate and shapechange into that.
No. You can shapechange into anything that meets the following requirements:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

A creature is defined as such in the game rules; you can take the form of anything with stats. The spell does not list any requirement like 'existing' or 'known'.


@legomaster: "the power you pray to for spells" can be virtually anything. It can be the ideal of hard determinism, if you want.

[Tiri]

You can't shapechange into something that doesn't exist. Planetars and Zodars don't exist irl.

I don't understand why you quoted me to say this. You don't seem to be disagreeing with me.

[RoboEmperor]

No. You can shapechange into anything that meets the following requirements:


A creature is defined as such in the game rules; you can take the form of anything with stats. The spell does not list any requirement like 'existing' or 'known'.


@legomaster: "the power you pray to for spells" can be virtually anything. It can be the ideal of hard determinism, if you want.

So whats stopping an ingame character from creating a fictional 1hd creature with at-will wish and gate at caster level 9999999 on a piece of paper with stats and then shapechanging into that? Or polymorph.


I don't understand why you quoted me to say this. You don't seem to be disagreeing with me.

I think I mistook your quote button for someone else's quote button.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So whats stopping an ingame character from creating a fictional 1hd creature [...]
Ingame characters cannot manipulate the game rules. It's not hard, you know.

[Calthropstu]

Mythic augmented timestop.
No contest, it is the number 1 most abusable solo spell ever made.

[RoboEmperor]

Ingame characters cannot manipulate the game rules. It's not hard, you know.

So you're saying ingame characters cannot polymorph into ingame fictional creatures.

Well in real life all d&d creatures are fictional creatures.

Either you can shapechange into fictional creatures or not. If yes then my level 7 wizard can turn into that 1hd god monster, if no then if shapechange was real in real life, you can't turn into any d&d creature that doesn't exist in real life.

If you define creatures as any entity with stats, fictional creatures are creatures and therefore polymorph-able.

[Pex]

Remove Disease would make a person a saint.

No more cancer. No more AIDS. No more Alzheimer's. No more diabetes. Etc.

[The_Jette]

Remove Disease would make a person a saint.

No more cancer. No more AIDS. No more Alzheimer's. No more diabetes. Etc.

Would Remove Disease really work on diabetes? It's not so much a disease as a physical disorder. There's no microbe or bacteria or virus working on your body. It just can't produce insulin to manage the sugar levels of your body...

[Hackulator]

Saying Wish or Miracle is just silly and breaks any fun to be had in this discussion.

Having run entire games based entirely around this question, I also nerfed Shapechange to say you couldn't become a Dragon (or any other magical creature) because Dragons didn't exist and Shapechange doesn't let you make up imaginary creatures and turn into them.

Basically, choosing any spell for the purpose of just copying a bunch of other spells is ruining the fun by trying to be clever.

The most OP spell in the game for this, as far as I have been able to determine, is Demand without anything else coming close.

Other options used to great effect have been Heal, Greater Teleport and Etherealness.

[Ashtagon]

Suggestion.

Never flunk another job interview.

[Calthropstu]

Saying Wish or Miracle is just silly and breaks any fun to be had in this discussion.

Having run entire games based entirely around this question, I also nerfed Shapechange to say you couldn't become a Dragon (or any other magical creature) because Dragons didn't exist and Shapechange doesn't let you make up imaginary creatures and turn into them.

Basically, choosing any spell for the purpose of just copying a bunch of other spells is ruining the fun by trying to be clever.

The most OP spell in the game for this, as far as I have been able to determine, is Demand without anything else coming close.

Other options used to great effect have been Heal, Greater Teleport and Etherealness.

Greater teleport (or rather, interplanetary teleport) is definitely my second choice. Etherealness doesn't really pack the much oomph.
Dominate would also be very useful.
Plane shift would make for an interesting discussion all by itself.

[legomaster00156]

Mythic augmented timestop.
No contest, it is the number 1 most abusable solo spell ever made.
But you can't cast it without Mythic Power to expend.

[Buufreak]

This is the paranoia talking, but mind blank sounds awesome. Finally, I can stop worrying about all the other voices in my head!

[Hackulator]

Greater teleport (or rather, interplanetary teleport) is definitely my second choice. Etherealness doesn't really pack the much oomph.
Dominate would also be very useful.
Plane shift would make for an interesting discussion all by itself.

The ability to go ANYWHERE with literally no way of stopping you is incredibly powerful. Not to mention you can survive anything with a few seconds of warning. Plane's about to crash? Go ethereal. Crazy dude with a gun where you are? Go ethereal. You could literally kill anyone in the world you wanted without getting caught, how much more oomph do you need? You would be the world's best thief, best spy, best assassin.

[Calthropstu]

But you can't cast it without Mythic Power to expend.

Unless we are doing an exercise where you get the resources to cast it without limit and nothing else.
Of course the whole being absolutely exhausted when the spell ends is a drawback but I can live with that for that kind of power.

[JNAProductions]

Another vote for Cure Disease. Obviously Wish/Miracle is the go-to choice, but that's because they can replicate any other spell.

[Calthropstu]

The ability to go ANYWHERE with literally no way of stopping you is incredibly powerful. Not to mention you can survive anything with a few seconds of warning. Plane's about to crash? Go ethereal. Crazy dude with a gun where you are? Go ethereal. You could literally kill anyone in the world you wanted without getting caught, how much more oomph do you need? You would be the world's best thief, best spy, best assassin.

All of which can be accomplished with teleport, and teleport doesn't require you to actually travel to your destination. Sure, it's cool but eh, teleport wins over it easily.

[Malroth]

Meh I'm evil enough. I'd go Mindr*pe and start myself a cult somewhere.

[The_Jette]

Here's a follow up question: Does everyone get one spell of their own? Or, am I the only special person with access? If everyone gets a spell, then Greater Dispel would be the spell to rule them all.

Edit: another follow up: if there's only one spell, then wouldn't Miracle/Wish/Whatever be completely useless, since there aren't any other spells to duplicate?

[ExLibrisMortis]

So you're saying ingame characters cannot polymorph into ingame fictional creatures.
In-game characters cannot shapechange into creatures that do not have game stats. Some creatures that are fictional in-universe will not have stats, and are thus unavailable. Some creatures that are fictional in-universe nevertheless have stats, and are thus available.

You seem to be misunderstanding a basic principle of the rules. Something is a "creature", as referenced in shapechange, if and only if it is called out as such in the rules. That means it must have an entry that assigns it creature information: size, type, and ability scores, for example. Anything that does not have stats cannot be turned into, even if it is a relatively common creature*.

If you want to use shapechange, your character can make up all sorts of creatures. Some of those will have stats - they are creatures - and will be available. Some of those will not have stats - even if they ought to - and are not creatures, so they are not available. The character has no power to change the list of available monsters, because that list is an OOC construct, but they can access it, in a way, by simply trying every form and noting its availability.

Translating this to the question at hand, we get a situation where shapechange can turn you into any creature in the D&D rules, and the D&D rules are a convention established in the same universe. That could lead to the ability to rewrite your own power ("the text for magic missile now says you get +200 permanent INT per casting"), but I'm assuming it doesn't, and we're only allowed the non-homebrew version of spells. In that case, shapechange still references that one set list of D&D monsters, and you can turn into anything on that list.



*The DM can/should always assign stats on a case-by-case basis, for example using the stats for a dog for a raccoon.

[Pex]

Would Remove Disease really work on diabetes? It's not so much a disease as a physical disorder. There's no microbe or bacteria or virus working on your body. It just can't produce insulin to manage the sugar levels of your body...

Maybe not. Still saintly if not universal. Even though it's real life Remove Disease may just be catchall fantasy enough to include diabetes anyway. Of course there's the Heal spell, but I was purposely going for a relatively low level spell as it's easy to go straight for the high level ones.


Suggestion.

Never flunk another job interview.

Ahem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBgf6nSG0k8

[Hackulator]

All of which can be accomplished with teleport, and teleport doesn't require you to actually travel to your destination. Sure, it's cool but eh, teleport wins over it easily.

You can't spy invisibly with teleport. You can't fly with teleport (which is more about enjoyment than usefulness but still). I'm not saying teleport isn't great and arguably better, but it can't do everything. Also, with teleport you couldn't enter a room if you had no idea what was inside it because you have to have at least a "reliable description" of the place you are teleporting to for greater teleport.


Maybe not. Still saintly if not universal. Even though it's real life Remove Disease may just be catchall fantasy enough to include diabetes anyway. Of course there's the Heal spell, but I was purposely going for a relatively low level spell as it's easy to go straight for the high level ones.



Ahem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBgf6nSG0k8

When we've played games based around this question, healing spells could clear the long term damage from chronic conditions (ie, bring your kidneys back to healthy condition from the damage they had taken from years of diabetes) but could not clear the underlying condition itself.

[Shalist]

Heal enables you to channel positive energy into a creature to wipe away injury and afflictions. It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the Target: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned.Curing diseases, and plenty more besides (i.e. lead poisoning). And keep in mind mass heal hits everyone in a 110' radius sphere, which works out to ~44,000 5' cubes (3-d) or ~1500 5' squares (flat, 2-d). That is, bottlenecks would primarily be logistical. If they could be worked out somewhat, you could easily be healing a million or more people each day. Or helping eradicate disease from colonies of bees, feral cats, or whatever else.

Though I agree that greater teleport would be incredibly fun to have for a million different reasons, 'course.

[Deeds]

Detect Thoughts would be handy in real life. "Wow! She's cute! I'll see if she likes me."
...
...
"GET OUT OF MY HEAD, CHARLES."

[Friv]

So whats stopping an ingame character from creating a fictional 1hd creature with at-will wish and gate at caster level 9999999 on a piece of paper with stats and then shapechanging into that? Or polymorph.

The easiest thing stopping them would be a DM ruling that having at-will wish automatically pushes a creature past 25 HD, just because otherwise their hearts instantly explode from the stress.

Since HD in D&D are inherently tied to power much more than they are tied to any actual measurement, it's a reasonable statement.

[Hurnn]

Wish, Miracle, Shapechange, PaO, Heal/Mass Heal, Regenerate, Reincarnate, Cure Disease in that order of preference.

The caveats being:

Wish, and Miracle: if you can't spend exp or duplicate other effects they are pretty much useless so pass, if you can they are the clear winners.

Shapechange: If you can only be something that "exists" still cool but far less so than becoming a solar, so pass in that scenario.

PaO: No real downsides I can make my dog into a triceratops and ride him to work that's pretty metal, I can be a bird and fly away, I can be fightclub Brad Pitt, saves a ton of time in the gym. apparently you can even make a person out of a pebble and by raw make that person into a different person and it lasts forever. Seems good.

Heal and Mass Heal: Their only downside is they cant replace lost things otherwise they fix a lot of stuff, you are the worlds best doctor.

Regenerate: Another real no down side one you are the worlds second best doctor (best if you need a new arm) Are you dead? If not, well I can save you, lost your arms boom grew you new ones, liver is shot lets yank it out and boom new one.

Reincarnate: The only down side is I need someone else to cast it on me when its time, because I can beat death for everyone else, and since it's a brand new body you get around old age.

Remove Disease: I guess if you are feeling altruistic, but there is only so much time in a day.

[AOKost]

Trying to not post one that I've seen thus far:

I would love Prestidigitation! The sheer amount of housework you could get done with that cantrip is amazing! Let alone work that you could do virtually anywhere else! I would add Control Weather, Comprehend Language, Wall of Force, Magic Missile (for hunting purposes ;) ) Endure Elements, Light and lots of other spells would be great to have

[RoboEmperor]

The easiest thing stopping them would be a DM ruling that having at-will wish automatically pushes a creature past 25 HD, just because otherwise their hearts instantly explode from the stress.

Since HD in D&D are inherently tied to power much more than they are tied to any actual measurement, it's a reasonable statement.

You say that, but d&d is filled with low hd monsters with CL 20 level 9 spells (NIGHTMARE!!!) XD


In-game characters cannot shapechange into creatures that do not have game stats. Some creatures that are fictional in-universe will not have stats, and are thus unavailable. Some creatures that are fictional in-universe nevertheless have stats, and are thus available.

You seem to be misunderstanding a basic principle of the rules. Something is a "creature", as referenced in shapechange, if and only if it is called out as such in the rules. That means it must have an entry that assigns it creature information: size, type, and ability scores, for example. Anything that does not have stats cannot be turned into, even if it is a relatively common creature*.

If you want to use shapechange, your character can make up all sorts of creatures. Some of those will have stats - they are creatures - and will be available. Some of those will not have stats - even if they ought to - and are not creatures, so they are not available. The character has no power to change the list of available monsters, because that list is an OOC construct, but they can access it, in a way, by simply trying every form and noting its availability.

Translating this to the question at hand, we get a situation where shapechange can turn you into any creature in the D&D rules, and the D&D rules are a convention established in the same universe. That could lead to the ability to rewrite your own power ("the text for magic missile now says you get +200 permanent INT per casting"), but I'm assuming it doesn't, and we're only allowed the non-homebrew version of spells. In that case, shapechange still references that one set list of D&D monsters, and you can turn into anything on that list.



*The DM can/should always assign stats on a case-by-case basis, for example using the stats for a dog for a raccoon.

We have differing opinions on how shapechange work.

You believe there is a database of available creatures the DM adds/removes for the campaign.

I believe there is no list, and Shapechange is limited by what creatures exist in the reality the caster is in, and the DM controls available creatures by simply saying that the creature exists/doesn't exists in this world, and I was arguing if you go by RAW ruling of shapechange without my version of limitation, in-game characters can make their own creatures.

There really is no RAW rule saying you are right or I'm right, like there'd be a rule saying if shapechange was used in real life you can turn into any d&d creature XD, and there is no DM irl to settle ruling debates for this world, so let's just leave it at that :)

[S@tanicoaldo]

For those saying miracle or wish, I think irreversible aging sounds like a good substitute for XP... Or maybe having fewer days to live, that’s fair.

[Xar Zarath]

Unless we are doing an exercise where you get the resources to cast it without limit and nothing else.
Of course the whole being absolutely exhausted when the spell ends is a drawback but I can live with that for that kind of power.

No other feats and such as stated in OP. So you cast Time Stop but wouldn't have any feats, mythic or otherwise to augment it.


Here's a follow up question: Does everyone get one spell of their own? Or, am I the only special person with access? If everyone gets a spell, then Greater Dispel would be the spell to rule them all.


No, only you get a spell. One spell which can be cast at-will.


Also there is a spell I would like to choose but kinda think its gonna screw me over. Its called Utter Thrall an 8th level spell from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved Spell Treasury. Basically it makes any humanoid target a permanent mind-slave. Only instead of fighting the compulsion, the target is always acting in the best interests of you, even when they're not being commanded to do so. They believe you're their rightful master and will serve utterly, loyally, zealously. They will do everything, even willingly die for you even if you didn't say anything about it. Unlimited telepathic range (established by the spell)

Unfortunately if you get 1 or more of this spell off, it could be deadly. Fanatical followers would probably clash, trying to outdo one another to serve you better. It could even be deadly for myself. Still my answer, this time at least, would be to choose the Utter Thrall spell.

[Elkad]

Would Remove Disease really work on diabetes? It's not so much a disease as a physical disorder. There's no microbe or bacteria or virus working on your body. It just can't produce insulin to manage the sugar levels of your body...

Probably not. Type1 is a genetic problem. Type2 is really just an acquired immunity to a poison (Insulin), the poison just happens to be less-bad than letting another poison (glucose) run rampant in your blood.

Heal would fix Type2 nicely though (and the systematic damage it's done from years of high-carb diets). But you can prevent it just as easily by just not eating carbs, and even if you already have it, just stop eating carbs and your insulin immunity doesn't matter - plus some of the damage will heal on it's own. Either way, if you go back to eating carbs, it's going to come back eventually.

[Dac]

Reincarnate.

[unseenmage]

Most useful? For me? Guidance of the Avatar as skill retention/learning is difficult for me personally.

Most useful for anyone? Reincarnate because IIRC it lets you literally cheat death, though I may be misremembering.

Most desired, my choice? Animate Objects/Minor Servitor/Awaken Sand with the last listed being the best of the three. Listed all three because they're basically the same thing.

[Thurbane]

Reincarnate.

I was going to suggest this.

Also, if we're shooting for the stars, why take Cure Disease if Heal is on the table. Heck, why not Mass Heal. :smallsmile:

[John Longarrow]

Reincarnate.

Not so good once you realize how expensive it is... 50gp = 1lbs of GOLD after all...

For me, Wall of Iron if Wish/Miracle didn't pan out. Unlimited pure iron would sell very well! It is literally instant money if I talk to the right people.

[Nightcanon]

I can't see any reason why Heal shouldn't be able to cure diabetes, cancer etc. The spell description says it wipes away afflictions, and cures diseases (there is no stated requirement that diseases must be communicable or of microbiological origin, while IRL definitions of disease are pretty loose). One might find that inborn errors of metabolism, congenital abnormalities or chromosomal variants were not affected, if the spell 'resets to genetically-intended bodily architecture'; then again the detrimental effects of these might be significantly ameliorated by Heal's ability to remove afflictions, and specifically things like fatigue, confusion etc.
The problem with Heal is that you risk ending up in a situation analogous to Superman's here (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305), plus you could cause a significant spike in global population with the turmoil that that could cause, whilst damaging other medical progress during your own lifetime.

[Tiri]

XP and focus/material costs, if any, have to be paid as appropriately.

Actually, this is something we should probably clarify. Should we treat ourselves as having XP in real life and if we do how much of it do we have?

[Thurbane]

Not so good once you realize how expensive it is... 50gp = 1lbs of GOLD after all...

Meh, around $USD 20,000 per shot for returning from the dead and potentially remaining forever a young adult seems worth it to me.

Of course, coming back as a different race could be problematic...and assuming most people never advance beyond level 1, the loss of Con is an issue.

Hang, I just re-read the spell:


Material Component
Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 1,000 gp, spread over the remains.

...where are you getting 50gp from? Or is that the PF version?

Or were you saying you'd require 20 lbs. of gold worth of cost fear each casting?

If so, I don't think using the weight of gold as a conversion rate to the real world for the cost of a GP actually works; otherwise a pund of cinnamon would be worth $USD 20,000!

[Tiri]

Of course, coming back as a different race could be problematic...and assuming most people never advance beyond level 1, the loss of Con is an issue.

That's where coming back as a different race might help, if you return as any of the ones with a Constitution bonus.


...where are you getting 50gp from? Or is that the PF version?

It isn't. The Pathfinder version also needs 1000 GP worth of oils.

[tyckspoon]

Plane Shift honestly sounds like a setup for a Twilight Zone episode. Imagine you have been granted the power to send yourself and others to wondrous new places, places that potentially have resources, locations, and science to explore unlike anything else. If nothing else, you can prove once and for all that other dimensions exist and settle some fairly large cosmological questions. Only.. you don't know what the key is. You know what they look like, but you don't know the specific shape and composition. Your life becomes devoted to creating ever more bizarre planar tuning forks, hoping to discover the one that actually takes you somewhere. Finally, it works! You cast your one spell, and you are in a place nobody on Earth has ever seen before. And then, after the euphoria wears off a bit, you realize.. you have no idea how to go back home. You don't know what your home plane's signature key is. Good luck with your new life in a random plane with unknown physical laws, natives you most likely can't communicate with, and not knowing things as basic as how long the local light cycles are. If there is a light cycle. You've just exiled yourself from everything you ever assumed as basic facts of reality.

[OracleofWuffing]

Edit: another follow up: if there's only one spell, then wouldn't Miracle/Wish/Whatever be completely useless, since there aren't any other spells to duplicate?
You're not necessarily barred from wishing that other spells existed, in order to duplicate them. I mean, total and absolute humongous monkey paw example right there but to each their own.

But on that note on XP and focus/material costs, are we allowed to take Eschew Materials or have a Spell Component Pouch? I remember Travel Through Time was pretty silly once you got past that whole "rare component that doesn't have a GP value associated with it" thing.

Prestidigitation's probably the widest way to keep my options open (I shall corner the dry cleaning market! BWAHAHAHA!), but I'll probably ending up screwing myself over with it by using it the wrong way. Without pouring over books and going through spells individually, Mending sounds really good. I mean, "Oh no, I can't fix magic items, of which none exist!" What's that, the mundane TV has a short? Bwoop, good as new. Hey, can I have that sofa with the broken leg you keep meaning to throw out? Bwoop, awesome sofa now. Car got a flat tire? Bwoop, good as new. Hey, I don't know the first thing about how airplanes fly but bwoop just saved everyone from a crash! :smalltongue: It's kind of a hard pick over Mansion, though.

[unseenmage]

Plane Shift honestly sounds like a setup for a Twilight Zone episode. Imagine you have been granted the power to send yourself and others to wondrous new places, places that potentially have resources, locations, and science to explore unlike anything else. If nothing else, you can prove once and for all that other dimensions exist and settle some fairly large cosmological questions. Only.. you don't know what the key is. You know what they look like, but you don't know the specific shape and composition. Your life becomes devoted to creating ever more bizarre planar tuning forks, hoping to discover the one that actually takes you somewhere. Finally, it works! You cast your one spell, and you are in a place nobody on Earth has ever seen before. And then, after the euphoria wears off a bit, you realize.. you have no idea how to go back home. You don't know what your home plane's signature key is. Good luck with your new life in a random plane with unknown physical laws, natives you most likely can't communicate with, and not knowing things as basic as how long the local light cycles are. If there is a light cycle. You've just exiled yourself from everything you ever assumed as basic facts of reality.
That... that's so beautiful. Really wish this was a short film right now.

Had a similar thought about Reincarnate. Using it in our world could have odd consequences depending on how the in-game definition of disease and the real-world definition of disease interact.

Simply put a new body means potentially new genetic disorders.

Even then, at-will Reincarnate could lead one to keep retrying for that 'perfect' body until one's Con score just can't take it anymore.

[Tiri]

You're not necessarily barred from wishing that other spells existed, in order to duplicate them. I mean, total and absolute humongous monkey paw example right there but to each their own.

The OP says that you can only use that one spell, but it doesn't preclude the existence (even if you can't use them) of other spells.


But on that note on XP and focus/material costs, are we allowed to take Eschew Materials or have a Spell Component Pouch? I remember Travel Through Time was pretty silly once you got past that whole "rare component that doesn't have a GP value associated with it" thing.

The OP specifies that we don't get feats. If you can find a Spell Component Pouch in real life, I guess you could have that too. You just can't find one, that's all.

[OracleofWuffing]

The OP says that you can only use that one spell, but it doesn't preclude the existence (even if you can't use them) of other spells.
Direct that over to The_Jette, then. I'm saying if technicalities prevented Wish from duplicating spells, one could Wish those technicalities away and use Wish to duplicate spells regardless. (Which would probably work for Miracle, or what have you.)


If you can find a Spell Component Pouch in real life, I guess you could have that too. You just can't find one, that's all.
It then comes to mind that one could possibly Wish for a Spell Component Pouch. Which admittedly wouldn't to anything in that context spell-wise, because in that scenario one would already have Wish and that's what's important, but the concept is still silly to me and certainly someone could find a use for all that bat guano.

[John Longarrow]

Meh, around $USD 20,000 per shot for returning from the dead and potentially remaining forever a young adult seems worth it to me.

Of course, coming back as a different race could be problematic...and assuming most people never advance beyond level 1, the loss of Con is an issue.

Hang, I just re-read the spell:



...where are you getting 50gp from? Or is that the PF version?

Or were you saying you'd require 20 lbs. of gold worth of cost fear each casting?

If so, I don't think using the weight of gold as a conversion rate to the real world for the cost of a GP actually works; otherwise a pund of cinnamon would be worth $USD 20,000!

Not only the 20 LBS of gold to cast it, but you can't use it on yourself. You have to cast it on someone who's already dead. And since they come back as a young adult of <random race> odds are they won't look enough like themselves to be able to go back to their old life. Really not that useful when you think about it, unless you have someone who's really rich and really really really want's to have a new life, then again how often is someone like that going to risk their life on your ability to do magic?

[Thurbane]

Not only the 20 LBS of gold to cast it, but you can't use it on yourself. You have to cast it on someone who's already dead. And since they come back as a young adult of <random race> odds are they won't look enough like themselves to be able to go back to their old life. Really not that useful when you think about it, unless you have someone who's really rich and really really really want's to have a new life, then again how often is someone like that going to risk their life on your ability to do magic?

Just so you know, by your conversation rate for 1 GP, a goat would cost $USD 20,000.

A 10 foot length of ordinary chain would be $USD 600,000 or so. Most hardware store owners could retire very wealthy indeed! :smalltongue:

I know you can't use it on yourself. As someone who has lost loved ones, I'd still put it up there as one of the spells I'd most like IRL. Just sayin.

But yes, valid point on the biological immortality, since you can't cast it on yourself.

[unseenmage]

What's gonna be fun is when we figure out that, sure we get one spell and we are the only one who gets it BUT our Earth is a dead magic zone so only the most specific of spells (or most specific of readings of Antimagic Field, which dead magic zones inherit from IIRC) will function.

[Xar Zarath]

Actually, this is something we should probably clarify. Should we treat ourselves as having XP in real life and if we do how much of it do we have?

Have been thinking about this. Too much and its pretty much Wish/Miracle for days...too little well...

Consider that XP in terms of age. You pay your years to cast xp dependent spells. 1 year is equivalent to 100 xp.


But on that note on XP and focus/material costs, are we allowed to take Eschew Materials or have a Spell Component Pouch? I remember Travel Through Time was pretty silly once you got past that whole "rare component that doesn't have a GP value associated with it" thing.


Nope. As stated before, while you get 1 spell of your choice, you aren't allowed anything else. No class features, feats or any other abilities and such. Only what the spell you chose gets you.

[molten_dragon]

Shapechange, however, is dependent on your ability to find a jade circlet worth 1500 GP. That's a pretty big limitation.

Considering a gold piece would be worth about $370, that's $555,000. Pretty far beyond most people's ability to acquire.

[Yahzi]

Saying Wish or Miracle is just silly
The lowest level useful spell is Cure Minor Wounds. Because it auto-stabilizes. Bleeding out is still a big deal.

[Yahzi]

Considering a gold piece would be worth about $370, that's $555,000. Pretty far beyond most people's ability to acquire.
Not if you can shape-change... you could probably earn that much in Vegas in a year.

[Yahzi]

Plane Shift honestly sounds like a setup for a Twilight Zone episode...
Or a novel. :smallbiggrin:

[Quertus]

I have a lot I'd like to say in this thread. For now, let me just say these:

3.0 Gate - no XP cost! :smallcool:

Custom spell: Faith Mass Heal. Like Mass Heal, but, like the Faith Heal spell, only works on those of your faith. Especially fun if your faith is, "I'm a god". Sounds like a path to godhood to me. :smallwink:

For another path to attempt divinity, Mindrape everyone into your fanatical believers, at rate of 14,400 per day (who needs sleep?).

Even if Science could study our powers, allowing us to make "items", the death of the sun, let alone the heat death of the universe, limits the usefulness of most resurrection magic. Steal Life, if used on the sun, could allow for true immortality.

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned invisibility, or the ability to read books instantly (Aminusis?)

Miracle can create, IIRC, "anything of the same power level" as Xth level spells. So, if Miracle does anything, it does everything, even if there are no other spells.

I define myself by my data (memories) and algorithms (personality). If XP = memories, I have no desire whatsoever to spend XP.

Animate Dead is just one of many spells that makes me ask, why oh why would you have spells cast at minimal caster level, favoring the high-level spells (and favoring duplicating spells with Miracle etc), rather than just giving us a set caster level 20 or something?

And I'm loving the Twilight Zone Plane Shift!

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Come to think of it, Summon Monster IX would be a good one if you want to avoid the issues that come with Miracle and Shapechange. Looking at the Binder's Summon List and Spellbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9094.0) as a guide, there's some nice stuff in there. And given that the Summon Monster list is specified, I don't think there's really an argument on the usability of it in the same way there is for Shapechange (not that I accept that argument either, but it's evidently there).

[Manyasone]

Fabricate, Greater Psionic is my go to then. I know it's psionics, but hey

[bulbaquil]

Prices of material components could be a problem, simply because:

RAW, 1 ounce of gold = 10 ounces of silver = 100 ounces of copper in terms of price equivalence.

But IRL, 1 ounce of gold is worth $1,266.75, while 10 ounces of silver are worth $173.30, and 100 ounces of copper are worth only $16.04 at current spot prices.

So if some spell requires "1,500 gp worth" of something in material components, RAW it should just as easily require "150,000 cp worth" of it, despite the fact that 150,000 cp is, in terms of copper weight, 1/80 the price in dollars (or euros, pounds, yen, bitcoins, etc.) of 1,500 gp in terms of gold weight. So does the spell require 1,500 gp worth in price, or 1,500 gp worth in equivalent weight of gold?

That said, I would prefer greater teleport, which has no material component and thus nullifies this issue.

[Hurnn]

lets also not forget D&D's total divorce from reality on what coins weigh. the average historic medieval coin that I can find is roughly 4-5 grams so about 100 to a pound and silver coins are about 1/2 of that weight so 200+ to a pound, but even still 1000 gp would be $200,000 American. If you paid for it in an 10,000 silver coins that's only $14,000, a pretty good deal, however the winner is paying for it in cp 100,00 would set you back $1,280.

[Talverin]

NAP STACK
School necromancy; Level cleric 3
Casting Time 1 minute
Components V, S, M (a little silk pillow worth 100 gp)
Range 30 ft.
Area 30-ft.-radius emanation
Duration 8 hours
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
You reduce the amount of uninterrupted sleep or rest creatures within the spell's area need in order to recover from injuries, regain spells, or other special abilities to 2 hours instead of the normal eight. In addition, if creatures continue to sleep or rest beyond the initial 2 hours, every additional 2 hours counts as a day of rest for the purpose of recovering hit points, ability damage, as well as for enduring diseases, poisons, or other afflictions. This means 8 total hours of sleep counts as 4 days for natural healing and for saving throws as diseases or similar afflictions run their course. When suffering from diseases, poison, or other afflictions, sleepers experience vivid dreams that help them track their recovery. If things go poorly they can, at any time, wake themselves up in order to seek a better alternative. If awoken or otherwise disturbed during this 8-hour period, creatures may return to sleep but they no longer enjoy the benefits of the accelerated recovery time. Creatures can only enjoy the benefits of this spell once in any 1-week period.

I would build an empire upon college students and partygoers. Celebrities would hire me to napstack their parties. Extreme athletes would hire me to help them rest for training.

HOSPITALS would pay me millions of dollars. Up to four days of recovery in ONE eight hour period? We could get people healed up and on their way in -a few hours-.

No XP cost, and the 110 gold (Which would be expeeeensive in RL money) would be a lot for a startup, but daaaaamn would it be worthwhile.

E-Sports tournaments anybody?

[Nightcanon]

Not if you can shape-change... you could probably earn that much in Vegas in a year.

You need to start off with the jade circlet, though. Sure, if you had a plan to make money from shapechanging, you could go for it (although good luck explaining to your bank manager why you want a loan to buy a jade $0.5M piece of jewellery), but it would likely take you a hell of a long time to get there (heck, perhaps I can cast shapechange if I had the material component... how would I ever find out?).

[Krobar]

Two that would be really useful in real life that haven't already been mentioned are Charm Person and Glibness.

Aura of Terror could be fun too.

[death390]

Here's a follow up question: Does everyone get one spell of their own? Or, am I the only special person with access? If everyone gets a spell, then Greater Dispel would be the spell to rule them all.

Edit: another follow up: if there's only one spell, then wouldn't Miracle/Wish/Whatever be completely useless, since there aren't any other spells to duplicate?

have you watched the show "A certain magical index" that is the whole premise actually.

[death390]

my pick is split.

Polymorph any object sounds like fun.

shades for shear utility (make anything 80% real, magnificent mansion, ect)


the idea of timestop is neat but 12-30s is not much time so no thanks on that one. ignoring wish due to shere BSery.

[Thurbane]

I was going to suggest (Greater) Anyspell, but re-reading it, the mechanics of how to acquire and use the spell probably fall outside of the "ability to cast any one" spell stipulation, not to mention requiring a magical scroll or spellbook.

[Calthropstu]

my pick is split.

Polymorph any object sounds like fun.

shades for shear utility (make anything 80% real, magnificent mansion, ect)


the idea of timestop is neat but 12-30s is not much time so no thanks on that one. ignoring wish due to shere BSery.

Hence why I said mythic augmented timestop. It comes with huge drawbacks mainly you can't end it willingly, it lasts at least 17 hours and you can't rest. So you could cast it basically once and then be exhausted. And since it would be reality's rules, you would flat out suicide if you cast it too many times.

[Brunks]

There are some problems I would like to avoid for my pick.

Too powerful:
Spells like wish or miracle are obvious choices. But I'm not sure if I could handle it. Imagine you'd fire one off during an argument with a loved one, or decided to blow up a traffic jam. Sure you could undo it with the next wish, but would that be any better? It is a pretty dark and lonely path.


Too dangerous:
While chucking fireballs would be nice some spells really change the game, scrying or remote viewing would be very useful, but once goverments catch on they'll quickly decide "we can't have that".
Teleportation would defeat almost any security or border we could think of, as soon as anyone figures out you (and only you) have these powers, you are in big danger.


Too desirable:
What about helping people then? Healing the sick would be great. But it is hard to do while avoiding detection. Every country or organization in the world would want these powers, certainly some would offer you great compensation, but those who can't (or wont) might compell you through other means.
Its no fun being a steak in a lion pen.


Too strange:
If you're turning people into dragons one of the first things people will ask is: "how did you do that?"
In fact any demonstrable magic would have to cause serious questions about science, physics, religion and how we percieve this world. Would you reject scientific research being done on your powers? Can you protect yourself from those who think you are the devil?

My Pick:
Moment of Prescience

The hefty skill bonus would let me do almost anything well, but I'd excell at the things I'm already good at. I can spend my time doing what I like, and doing it better than ever before!
It could even save me from an unsuspecting attack or (more likely) accident.

As far as the rest of the world is concerned I'm just a quirky genius who compulsivly mumbles some obscure word while moving his hand.

[Thurbane]

I guess a big question to ask in this thread: are you literally the only person in the world who can cast spells, or do multiple people (or everyone) get this power?

[Mordaedil]

Surprised nobody has picked it yet, but my vote goes for Overland flight. I've just always wanted to fly by my own devices.

[Quertus]

Too powerful:
Spells like wish or miracle are obvious choices. But I'm not sure if I could handle it. Imagine you'd fire one off during an argument with a loved one, or decided to blow up a traffic jam. Sure you could undo it with the next wish, but would that be any better? It is a pretty dark and lonely path.


Too desirable:
What about helping people then? Healing the sick would be great. But it is hard to do while avoiding detection. Every country or organization in the world would want these powers, certainly some would offer you great compensation, but those who can't (or wont) might compell you through other means.
Its no fun being a steak in a lion pen.


Too strange:
If you're turning people into dragons one of the first things people will ask is: "how did you do that?"
In fact any demonstrable magic would have to cause serious questions about science, physics, religion and how we percieve this world. Would you reject scientific research being done on your powers? Can you protect yourself from those who think you are the devil?

I'm not seeing why "too powerful" would be a concern for Miracle. For the Monkey's Paw Wish, yes.

As I already mentioned scientific research into the source of one's power (in the interest of making "items", to, for example, allow one to benefit from one's own True Resurrection), I'm wondering why you would even consider rejecting scientific research into the source of one's powers.

But too desirable? Yeah, I love the visual of being a steak in a lion pen. That seems to sum it up nicely.

So I'm still going with a fully functional Miracle as my first, terribly boring, doesn't fit the spirit of the question choice. And 3.0 XP-free Gate as my second choice.

[Solaris]

I do believe I would go with something like miracle or wish, and use it to grant people powers. Infectious disease specialist? Remove disease. Surgeon? Regenerate. John Hammond? Polymorph any object, and I want tickets to the opening of that park. My buddy who's still in the service? Protection from normal missiles.
As for the experience point cost... meh. Even D&D has methods of acquiring those precious, precious XPs that don't involve killing things, and it's pretty safe to say that if we're playing by rules approximating D&D's I've already got a few experience points under my belt to begin with. If nothing else, I can join a dojo or something and spend my days getting the snot beat out of me training to farm experience points. It may mean I can only grant 1/year, but if I propagate the wish-granting ability among a trusted cadre...


Wish

1. Change your race so you're immortal
2. Free wish loops.
3. You are literally a god in this world.



You can't shapechange into something that doesn't exist. Planetars and Zodars don't exist irl.

Miracle also fails because you literally need a deity to exist. God, Zeus, etc's existence is not proven.

If you want to go with that logic then wishes don't exist, either. Neither does magic in general.
It's not clever to completely miss the point of a thought experiment.


Probably not. Type1 is a genetic problem. Type2 is really just an acquired immunity to a poison (Insulin), the poison just happens to be less-bad than letting another poison (glucose) run rampant in your blood.

Heal would fix Type2 nicely though (and the systematic damage it's done from years of high-carb diets). But you can prevent it just as easily by just not eating carbs, and even if you already have it, just stop eating carbs and your insulin immunity doesn't matter - plus some of the damage will heal on it's own. Either way, if you go back to eating carbs, it's going to come back eventually.

Not... exactly. This is dangerously wrong. You can manage Type 2, sometimes, but you can't cure it in all cases even by not eating carbs.
There appears to be a genetic component to Type 2, which explains why some people get it and others on the same or similar diets don't.
More to the point, insulin blindness very much matters even if you don't eat carbohydrate-rich foods, because glucose is pretty much the only way your body's cells get energy and your body makes it from proteins and lipids as well as carbs. Eating a low-sugar diet only reduces the glucose spike following a meal, it doesn't get around insulin blindness and it certainly does nothing to help with a pancreas that underproduces insulin. That's why, even with management techniques, many patients need to take medication for their diabetes. It's not because they're schmucks who can't handle not stuffing their faces with candy, it's because they lost the genetic lottery or the damage from their diabetes was simply too far advanced when it was discovered.

Besides, the text of the spell doesn't specify infectious diseases. Why wouldn't it simply cure the Type 2? 'Certain special diseases' refers to things like mummy rot, not mundane diseases caused by things other than infectious agents.

[Gildedragon]

Too desirable:
What about helping people then? Healing the sick would be great. But it is hard to do while avoiding detection. Every country or organization in the world would want these powers, certainly some would offer you great compensation, but those who can't (or wont) might compell you through other means.
Its no fun being a steak in a lion pen.


That's why mass heal is fantastic.
Just walk through a hospital and peek into rooms...
Become a nurse or a pastor or night janitor and do the same thing.

For material gain: teleport through time? Mail oneself or one's parents years of lottery numbers and stock market info... Or mail oneself a winning lottery ticket.

Become a renowned historian and archeologist by knowing where things are and how they were done.

[Calthropstu]

I guess a big question to ask in this thread: are you literally the only person in the world who can cast spells, or do multiple people (or everyone) get this power?

If everyone got wish at will, I don't see the world lasting very long.

[Quertus]

For material gain: teleport through time? Mail oneself or one's parents years of lottery numbers and stock market info... Or mail oneself a winning lottery ticket.

Become a renowned historian and archeologist by knowing where things are and how they were done.

And the material component for this spell is...?

I find that, without immortality, Teleport Through Time is fun to write a story about, but not one I'd take IRL.

[Jack_Simth]

And the material component for this spell is...?

I find that, without immortality, Teleport Through Time is fun to write a story about, but not one I'd take IRL.
Real problem with Teleport Through Time is the XP cost. Arranging a flower that's been undisturbed for a week is easy enough, and a week is all you need to win the lottery.

In order of picks...

Miracle
Polymorph Any Object.
Shades

- Note: I'm assuming Pathfinder version on all of these (the Int-manipulation on PaO is BAD for self-use!)

Miracle lets you win at life. Shades is basically a third of the useful effects you want. Polymorph Any Object also lets you win at life, and live a very long time besides.


Trying to not post one that I've seen thus far:

I would love Prestidigitation! The sheer amount of housework you could get done with that cantrip is amazing! Let alone work that you could do virtually anywhere else! I would add Control Weather, Comprehend Language, Wall of Force, Magic Missile (for hunting purposes ;) ) Endure Elements, Light and lots of other spells would be great to have

Oh, there's lots of spells that'd be great to have, no contest. I'd hardly turn up my nose at pretty much any spell (although some are utterly useless in isolation - Detect Magic, for instance), but "most useful" is the question, here.

[Mato]

Guidance of the avatar.

By taking a six second pause I can answer almost any given question that I've had some kind of training in (like school), or I could create masterpieces of fine art, or jump over five feet into the air, understand complex cryptography, and even offset the penalty for telling an unbelievable lie like "trust me, I'm the king of Nigeria".

Heavenly host would be cool too. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbzUfV3_JIA)

[Dagroth]

Still gonna have to go with Polymorph Any Object.

The average price for a good quality Jade necklace is ~$150. The most ridiculously expensive I found was ~$6600.

Given the value of gemstones in D&D terms and the fact that Jade is very devalued in a Global market, I'd have to conclude that a ~$200 Jade necklace is easily equivalent to the one required by the Shapechange spell.

Of course, the biggest advantages of Shapechange are gaining the Supernatural abilities & being able to assume incorporeal & gaseous forms. The biggest disadvantage is that it only lasts just over 3 hours (assuming minimum caster level).

"But you can change every round!" you say? Well, with unlimited casting, you can do that with PaO... and do it to others, too!

Polymorph Any Object is infinite wealth (lead into gold = Same Kingdom (mineral), Same Class (metals), Same Size. Making gems... Lithium... whatever.) Heck, for more prosaic effects you could do Appleseed -> Apple Tree and create instant orchards. You could even duplicate other specific spells to gain wealth. Flesh to Stone on a rabbit. PoA stone to lead. PoA stone to gold. Now you've got an incredibly life-like gold statue of a rabbit!

Transmute Rock to Mud and you can tunnel through mountains.

While you can't transform yourself or someone else into a duplicate of a specific person, you can come close. You could PaO someone who's lost a limb into someone who looks very close to them but has all their limbs!

It's a judgement call to say if you could change someone with ALS or MS into someone in perfect health... But given the full, permanent genetic reconstruction that PaO does I would say it would work. You could also change older people into younger people (including yourself).

By strict reading of the HP & damage rules, you could change yourself into someone without a wound if you got shot... but you'd still be "down hit points", just not bleeding out or having a bullet inside you.

So yeah, PaO beats Shapechange if you've only got one spell and unlimited castings.

Edit: Okay, you can't make Gold or Gemstones with PaO... but you could change common animals into incredibly rare and valuable animals. And you could arguably use multiple castings to change a manikin into a person and then change that person into a different person permanently.

[Xar Zarath]

I guess a big question to ask in this thread: are you literally the only person in the world who can cast spells, or do multiple people (or everyone) get this power?

I think I already stated this earlier but for clarification only you get the single spell in real life. One day poof, you get it.

[Thurbane]

I think I already stated this earlier but for clarification only you get the single spell in real life. One day poof, you get it.

Thanks, must have missed that.

I'll stand by my choice(s): Mass Heal. :smallsmile:

[ExLibrisMortis]

So yeah, PaO beats Shapechange if you've only got one spell and unlimited castings.
Shapechange into a creature with polymorph any object as (Su), or wish, and cast PaO as often as you need. Nothing beats shapechange.

[Calthropstu]

Shapechange into a creature with polymorph any object as (Su), or wish, and cast PaO as often as you need. Nothing beats shapechange.

Unless you're in a universe where nothing has su or ex abilities.

Such as ours.

[The_Jette]

In our universe, the way it is today, where magic doesn't exist, the consensus is that anything that duplicates another spell or supernatural ability would be a waste, because it wouldn't work. In those situations, spells that give a direct benefit, like healing or providing food, are more beneficial than spells that have high cost xp or gp drains, which are put in with the concept that the characters using them are high level and can afford it. However, if the spells function exactly as they do in the game, with the ability to duplicate spell affects, or turn into a creature which exists in the fictional universe of D&D which don't in our universe, then PAO, Shapechange, Miracle, etc, become immensely more valuable because you're no longer limited to just one affect.

Essentially, are you able to wish for more wishes? Or, do you have to make due with the wish that you're offered? It wouldn't make sense to waste your one wish on an infinite number of wishes, if you won't get it. And, it wouldn't make sense to waste your wish on just the one wish if you can get an infinite number.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Unless you're in a universe where nothing has su or ex abilities.

Such as ours.
We've had this discussion. That is not how shapechange operates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22034233&postcount=38).

[Calthropstu]

We've had this discussion. That is not how shapechange operates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22034233&postcount=38).

And I disagree. I hold with those who believe shapechange would act to "change into any creature that exists."
Shapechange is limited, in game, by what materials the gm allows into the campaign... which, in this case, the gm is reality itself.
You may want to pretend otherwise, but you are just flat wrong. Otherwise, in game, you could say "I change into a super being with all the possible sp abilities as su abilities and am immune to everything." And the gm responding "That is a negative. Such a creature doesn't exist." "But I MAKE it exist with the power of my imagination..." "No."
That's about how your attempts would go. You are no longer following the laws of 3.5, but of the universe we live in. Spells, if somehow granted, would have to adapt.

[Dagroth]

We've had this discussion. That is not how shapechange operates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22034233&postcount=38).

Well, even if shapechange lets you become anything in D&D, it's limited to your caster level in hit dice.

If we assume minimum Wizard caster level, that's 17. If we assume minimum Divine Crusader caster level (Animal Domain), that's 9.

Polymorph Any Object has a minimum Wizard caster level of 15 or a minimum Divine Crusader caster level (Trickery Domain) of 8.

Of course, PaO's duration doesn't care about caster level... and 800lbs of material/creature is more than enough for most situations.

Shapechange is nice... but what creature that you can shapechange into has unlimited PaO?

Unless you're planning on combat, PaO is more than enough for your own shape shifting needs plus changing other people & things.

[Quertus]

Unless you're in a universe where nothing has su or ex abilities.

Such as ours.

I think most religious folks might tend to disagree with this assertion.

[Calthropstu]

I think most religious folks might tend to disagree with this assertion.

To be fair, it may be possible to transform, via shapechange, into angels and demons if such exist.
But much of D&D is pure fantasy. The creatures which can wish for anything? Yeah, not a thing.
It would be interesting though. If someone DID achieve shapechange, they could confirm whether or not creatures exist simply by trying to take their form. Bigfoot, sasquatch etc... we could finally confirm whether they exist or ever existed.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You may want to pretend otherwise, but you are just flat wrong.
You should really make sure you understand the RAW before you call people wrong. You make the same mistake as someonenoone11 did. You can't turn into any creature you can imagine with shapechange. You can turn into any creature defined in the D&D rules. For example, the Lady of Pain is off-limits (though she exists) because she has no stats. I don't care if you houserule shapechange, but on this thread, we're going by RAW.



Shapechange is nice... but what creature that you can shapechange into has unlimited PaO?
Zodar: 16 HD, CL 16 wish (Su), emulates PaO. PaO is limited in that it can't create valuable substances, but wish emulating true creation is not, so there's another bonus.

Note: shapechange also gets you other nice (Su) abilities, such as the barghest's Feed, getting you some really nice bonus HD.

[Mordaedil]

If we're going by RAW, then it does say "anything you are familiar with."

How do you describe "familiar"? To know of? Have basic information about? Or to know intricate details about the creature? Is it enough to know their stat block? Have seen a picture? Or to know the exact structure of the creature without making a guess at?

How close to familiar is it before you are familiar enough to take the shape of the creature? Do you have to have encountered it and defeated it? Do you have to only know the name? If it is a fantastical creature, can you really claim familiarity with it? Does that mean you could become other fantastic creations that aren't defined by the rules as written?

I think Shapechange leaves too many open-ended loose ends. It's also worth you cannot exceed your casterlevel in HD for the spell, so that brings into question whta your HD is. Having access to the power you'd assume would mean you'd correspond to the casterlevel of the level for the spell, but assume that we're wrong about that. Let's take the HD down, for interest of discussion.

What if you were limited to 6HD, 3HD and 1HD, what forms would you still find useful?

[SimonMoon6]

Polymorph Any Object is infinite wealth (lead into gold = Same Kingdom (mineral), Same Class (metals), Same Size. Making gems... Lithium... whatever.)

Here's a quote from the spell itself:



This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine.


You probably still can make a lot of money with this spell, but through less direct means.

[Dagroth]

Here's a quote from the spell itself:



You probably still can make a lot of money with this spell, but through less direct means.

Yeah, I caught that.

You can still make highly realistic marble statues with it though...

[Calthropstu]

You should really make sure you understand the RAW before you call people wrong. You make the same mistake as someonenoone11 did. You can't turn into any creature you can imagine with shapechange. You can turn into any creature defined in the D&D rules. For example, the Lady of Pain is off-limits (though she exists) because she has no stats. I don't care if you houserule shapechange, but on this thread, we're going by...

Bull****. You go by what is in the universe you are playing. You go by what the gm says you have access to... THAT is RAW. The first thing you do when you start as a gm is decide what resources are available. NO gm I have ever seen allows "anything and everything."
So RAW, if you gain shapechange in THIS universe, you have access to anything that can be accessed in THIS universe.

No house ruling involved.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think Shapechange leaves too many open-ended loose ends.
Now this, I can get behind. It's a big pain in the ass. It is also exactly why it's such a great spell: shapechange is so open-ended that - by default - it carries a massive part of the game with it, including all monster stats. For what it's worth, I am of the opinion that the Monster Manual provides enough information to be considered 'familiar' with a creature. That leads to the hilarious situation where the receiver of the shapechange power would have to become a 17th-level D&D geek to use their power to the fullest :smallbiggrin:.

As for the HD cap: I'd usually tend towards the looser interpretation of shapechange (where "HD up to CL" replaces the entirety of polymorph's "HD up to CL or HD, whichever's lower"). If I were limited to 1 HD forms (Earth humans being 1 HD), I wouldn't pick shapechange or polymorph any object. As an aside, PaO would be really weird, because it shares the polymorph HD cap, but works on targets that do not have HD.


@Calthropstu: You're confusing RAW with specific invocations of rule 0. Yes, a DM can impose source limits, using rule 0. However, no specific set of limits is RAW, the game starts without any and never stipulates that you should impose any, and there is nothing in the rules of shapechange that says you can only turn into existing creatures. Given that, and that this universe has no DM, there are no limits on the forms you can take with shapechange.

[Calthropstu]

Now this, I can get behind. It's a big pain in the ass. It is also exactly why it's such a great spell: shapechange is so open-ended that - by default - it carries a massive part of the game with it, including all monster stats. For what it's worth, I am of the opinion that the Monster Manual provides enough information to be considered 'familiar' with a creature. That leads to the hilarious situation where the receiver of the shapechange power would have to become a 17th-level D&D geek to use their power to the fullest :smallbiggrin:.

As for the HD cap: I'd usually tend towards the looser interpretation of shapechange (where "HD up to CL" replaces the entirety of polymorph's "HD up to CL or HD, whichever's lower"). If I were limited to 1 HD forms (Earth humans being 1 HD), I wouldn't pick shapechange or polymorph any object. As an aside, PaO would be really weird, because it shares the polymorph HD cap, but works on targets that do not have HD.


@Calthropstu: You're confusing RAW with specific invocations of rule 0. Yes, a DM can impose source limits, using rule 0. However, no specific set of limits is RAW, the game starts without any and never stipulates that you should impose any, and there is nothing in the rules of shapechange that says you can only turn into existing creatures. Given that, and that this universe has no DM, there are no limits on the forms you can take with shapechange.

I understand all of that. But in this case, the gm is the universe itself. The setting is OUR universe. I can't see shapechange allowing things to exist that simply... can't.
So rule zero will inevitably apply here with the universe acting as adjudication.

[unseenmage]

I understand all of that. But in this case, the gm is the universe itself. The setting is OUR universe. I can't see shapechange allowing things to exist that simply... can't.
So rule zero will inevitably apply here with the universe acting as adjudication.

The universe according to you, you mean. Wherein you are right and everybody else's idea of what's possible is badwrongfun.


Seems a bit too limiting for my taste. If a D&D-verse spell were suddenly granted it stands to reason that the universe it comes from also exists and the contents therein are accessible to that spell.

[Quertus]

Bull****. You go by what is in the universe you are playing. You go by what the gm says you have access to... THAT is RAW. The first thing you do when you start as a gm is decide what resources are available. NO gm I have ever seen allows "anything and everything."
So RAW, if you gain shapechange in THIS universe, you have access to anything that can be accessed in THIS universe.

No house ruling involved.


I understand all of that. But in this case, the gm is the universe itself. The setting is OUR universe. I can't see shapechange allowing things to exist that simply... can't.
So rule zero will inevitably apply here with the universe acting as adjudication.

Define "can't" , as relates to "exist", in a world where one can shape change or PaO.

Worse, as dinosaurs are our past, we are D&D's past. I suspect any D&D monster would be just as valid as any dinosaur. Which may or may not be just as valid as any "modern" creature.

Worst, how many HD do deities / spirits / etc from modern religions have?

[Calthropstu]

Define "can't" , as relates to "exist", in a world where one can shape change or PaO.

Worse, as dinosaurs are our past, we are D&D's past. I suspect any D&D monster would be just as valid as any dinosaur. Which may or may not be just as valid as any "modern" creature.

Worst, how many HD do deities / spirits / etc from modern religions have?

I was actually thinking about that.

So I reread the spell.


This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

So, you can assume any nonunique creature. So I see numerous problems with this spell entering our universe.

Since dna proves no 2 creatures are exactly alike, (even identical twins are unique due to experiences differentiating them) literal translation means you can't turn into anything.
Barring that argument, I can definitely see some sort of amorphous creature able to take on the shapes, mannerisms and other qualities of other creatures. But I can't see it being able to use things like telepathic communication or similar unique quirks.
But let's say you could. Going by the wording posted above, THE CREATURE MUST EXIST. In the D&D verse, maybe it does. But it does not in ours. Which means you can't turn into it, unless you're in that universe.
As to the assertion "well if the spell exists then the d&d verse must exist," Possibly. But much would be determined by how you acquire the ability.
1:Someone or something could find a way to mimick the ability within our universe, all laws of our universe would apply.
2:Something came from the D&D verse and granted the ability. But with no sustained link, no other abilities could work. Our universe laws apply.
3:You somhow maintain a link to the d&d verse granting the ability. It's possible to access the d&d monsters in question.

Most likely is #1. In fact, many d&d spells can be mimicked in reality. Flame thrower vs burning hands for example.

[FreddyNoNose]

I wish I knew.

[Quertus]

I was actually thinking about that.

So I reread the spell.



So, you can assume any nonunique creature. So I see numerous problems with this spell entering our universe.

Since dna proves no 2 creatures are exactly alike, (even identical twins are unique due to experiences differentiating them) literal translation means you can't turn into anything.
Barring that argument, I can definitely see some sort of amorphous creature able to take on the shapes, mannerisms and other qualities of other creatures. But I can't see it being able to use things like telepathic communication or similar unique quirks.
But let's say you could. Going by the wording posted above, THE CREATURE MUST EXIST. In the D&D verse, maybe it does. But it does not in ours. Which means you can't turn into it, unless you're in that universe.
As to the assertion "well if the spell exists then the d&d verse must exist," Possibly. But much would be determined by how you acquire the ability.
1:Someone or something could find a way to mimick the ability within our universe, all laws of our universe would apply.
2:Something came from the D&D verse and granted the ability. But with no sustained link, no other abilities could work. Our universe laws apply.
3:You somhow maintain a link to the d&d verse granting the ability. It's possible to access the d&d monsters in question.

Most likely is #1. In fact, many d&d spells can be mimicked in reality. Flame thrower vs burning hands for example.

Unique is a keyword. It has its own definition, not entirely reliant on the standard definition. Bahamut is the one and only Platinum Dragon. Platinum Dragons are not a race, they are a Unique Creature. You cannot Polymorph into a Platinum Dragon, because it is a Unique Creature.

I miss how existence is explicitly called for in the spell description.

And, no, the argument isn't, "if the spell exists, this must be the D&D universe". The argument is 1) this is the D&D universe, or, at the very least, the D&D universe is this universe. 2) regardless of that, normal "this is a mundane world which cannot (currently? ever?) support the existence of magical creatures" fails by the OP, in which PaO can exist in the "this world" of this thread. Thus, what do you mean by "can't exist", when, by both the premise of the OP, and D&D history, there is a lot of support for "they can"?

Now, the issue may be that they don't. May be. But we can't prove that. 10,000 light years away, there may very well be something in this universe right now that we'd recognize as any given D&D creature. Heck, D&D magic could already be completely real in this universe, we just haven't noticed it yet.

But, even if dragons and dinosaurs don't currently exist, are they valid options for Polymorph, by virtue of the fact that they can exist?

That's the real question.

[Dagroth]

I refuse the assertion that all modern day people are 1 HD.

As for making money with PaO... world's most ultimate makeover, baby! Hollywood's elite will pay like crazy to stay young.

[OracleofWuffing]

I understand all of that. But in this case, the gm is the universe itself. The setting is OUR universe. I can't see shapechange allowing things to exist that simply... can't.
Meanwhile, someone who hypothetically took Orb of Force can poof into existence nonmagical orbs of magical force.

I'm kind of on the thought that a thing's presence in the form of a fictional tabletop game is a form of existence itself, agreeing with the implication that it would then apply to allowing you to shapechange into creatures from other fictional works, as well as anything one's willing to dredge up or hastily edit into a fan wiki. Just as long as it's within the Fine to Colossal size spectrum and within Hit Dice limitation. Yeah, that's crazy overpowered, but eh, it's a level 9 spell.

[fire_insideout]

@Calthropstu: Your logic is basically: "I cannot imagine this happening, therefore the rules must say that this cannot happen." whereas the rules on the other hand are quite clear:
Any creature defined as a non-unique one in any official 3.5 book (MM I-V, FF:s etc.) is, by RAW, accessible to the caster as long as they are familiar with the creature. Now, a DM is certainly within the rights to say that certain monsters are not accessible for shapechange, either because of balance reasons or simply because the sourcebook is not available, but that is rule 0 and nor RAW.

Now, what remains to be discussed is 'Can a caster be familiar with a creature not existing in the world except as text and images?'.

[Calthropstu]

@Calthropstu: Your logic is basically: "I cannot imagine this happening, therefore the rules must say that this cannot happen." whereas the rules on the other hand are quite clear:
Any creature defined as a non-unique one in any official 3.5 book (MM I-V, FF:s etc.) is, by RAW, accessible to the caster as long as they are familiar with the creature. Now, a DM is certainly within the rights to say that certain monsters are not accessible for shapechange, either because of balance reasons or simply because the sourcebook is not available, but that is rule 0 and nor RAW.

Now, what remains to be discussed is 'Can a caster be familiar with a creature not existing in the world except as text and images?'.

The rules ARE quite clear: A creature has to exist and be nonunique. Since the creature does not exist in our universe, you cannot change into it. It's fairly straight forward.

[The_Jette]

The rules ARE quite clear: A creature has to exist and be nonunique. Since the creature does not exist in our universe, you cannot change into it. It's fairly straight forward.

You're not going to win this one. You'll keep insisting that because it doesn't exist in this world you wouldn't be able to turn into it. They'll keep insisting that because you're using the powers of a non-existent world, the existence of the creatures in our world don't matter.

Nobody is really thinking about the fact that D&D takes creatures from myths and legends and warps them to fit an image that they craft. Trolls in legend were not green, skinny, and killed by fire. They were large, grayish creatures that ate people whole and turned to rocks in the sunlight. There's even a legend that Stonehenge are a group of trolls that were dancing too long, and turned to stone when the sun came up. Vampires have so many different legends about them that they look nothing alike when going from country to country. A Vampire from the Slavic areas are going to be completely different than one from Japan, or South America. And, don't even get me started on Zombies, which are part of the Hoodoo religion and are just mindless people who work in the fields and wouldn't harm a fly. If they even did start to eat someone, they would regain their senses and realize who they were, since giving meat or salt to a Zombie is supposed to make them regain their souls.

So, in the end, lets just agree that if it works the way we want it'd be awesome. But, if it were restricted by reality then it wouldn't be as awesome. It'd still be awesome, though. I mean, imagine the possibilities, even if you were restricted to turning into animals.

[Quertus]

I refuse the assertion that all modern day people are 1 HD.

By skill ranks needed to know as many (programming) languages as I know, I'm clearly at least an epic Expert. :smallwink:


The rules ARE quite clear: A creature has to exist and be nonunique. Since the creature does not exist in our universe, you cannot change into it. It's fairly straight forward.

Citation, please. I didn't see the word "exist" in your quoted text.

Now, for clarification, you're saying that if Quertus, who is from a world with... say... Wild Placean Yeti, and I run him in a world that didn't have that indigenous species (say, one of yours), then, despite being familiar with the creature, he cannot change into it, because it does not exist?


So, in the end, lets just agree that if it works the way we want it'd be awesome. But, if it were restricted by reality then it wouldn't be as awesome. It'd still be awesome, though. I mean, imagine the possibilities, even if you were restricted to turning into animals.

I mean, if I can't turn into a goblin, but can turn into <insert iconic religious creature here>, that'd be bloody awesome!

If scientists could study the power, and from it "divine" every currently existing creature, including all divine beings, alien races, etc, that'd be bloody awesome!

Or, if I could become familiar with a creature simply by imagining it hard enough, that'd be bloody awesome!

Just the D&D list isn't bad, either.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm kind of on the thought that a thing's presence in the form of a fictional tabletop game is a form of existence itself, agreeing with the implication that it would then apply to allowing you to shapechange into creatures from other fictional works, as well as anything one's willing to dredge up or hastily edit into a fan wiki. Just as long as it's within the Fine to Colossal size spectrum and within Hit Dice limitation. Yeah, that's crazy overpowered, but eh, it's a level 9 spell.
I'd agree with your first sentence. Trouble is, none of those creatures have stats by RAW (if they are even creatures, which has to be established first), and thus do not fit the size or HD restriction (or, if you prefer: you have no way of verifying whether they do one way or another), and you don't know how your stats change when you turn into those creatures. That's why I'd say they are off limits.

[Calthropstu]

You're not going to win this one. You'll keep insisting that because it doesn't exist in this world you wouldn't be able to turn into it. They'll keep insisting that because you're using the powers of a non-existent world, the existence of the creatures in our world don't matter.

Nobody is really thinking about the fact that D&D takes creatures from myths and legends and warps them to fit an image that they craft. Trolls in legend were not green, skinny, and killed by fire. They were large, grayish creatures that ate people whole and turned to rocks in the sunlight. There's even a legend that Stonehenge are a group of trolls that were dancing too long, and turned to stone when the sun came up. Vampires have so many different legends about them that they look nothing alike when going from country to country. A Vampire from the Slavic areas are going to be completely different than one from Japan, or South America. And, don't even get me started on Zombies, which are part of the Hoodoo religion and are just mindless people who work in the fields and wouldn't harm a fly. If they even did start to eat someone, they would regain their senses and realize who they were, since giving meat or salt to a Zombie is supposed to make them regain their souls.

So, in the end, lets just agree that if it works the way we want it'd be awesome. But, if it were restricted by reality then it wouldn't be as awesome. It'd still be awesome, though. I mean, imagine the possibilities, even if you were restricted to turning into animals.

Fair enough. I agree, it'd be amazing either way, and incredibly useful in many many ways. You'd basically be beast boy, which would be pretty amazing.

[Gildedragon]

Control Weather would be a pretty handy spell too.
Get paid to ensure sunny days for events, to alleviate droughts, to cool down the poles...

[OracleofWuffing]

I'd agree with your first sentence. Trouble is, none of those creatures have stats by RAW (if they are even creatures, which has to be established first), and thus do not fit the size or HD restriction (or, if you prefer: you have no way of verifying whether they do one way or another), and you don't know how your stats change when you turn into those creatures. That's why I'd say they are off limits.
Agreed- I even pointed out that you still need to comply with size and HD restrictions. But I don't really think that's any worthwhile amount of trouble: Houserules which have been written are still RAW, so the barrier to creating a creature with a size category and an amount of hit dice is trivially low. Of course, it's not official WotC stats, but the thread's open to discussion for any 3rd party OGL material. Which, kinda makes me wonder why nobody's made a pastebin to publish a single "Become Super Saiyan Double Saiyan God Saiyan Saiyan Saiyan 4 Pun-Pun 2.0 Flaboodle 3rd Strike" spell and run with it, but I guess that means we're actually kinda behaving well for the sake of discussion and I might have just ruined it.

As a curiosity, though, does one need to know how one's stats would change when Shapechanging? From a fluff point, someone wouldn't really know their own or someone else's stats without going pretty far out of the way to reverse-engineer ability scores. Which could throw a huge wrench into the concept if there's multiple creatures of the same kind but different stats. I think my head's spinning now.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Of course, it's not official WotC stats, but the thread's open to discussion for any 3rd party OGL material.

As a curiosity, though, does one need to know how one's stats would change when Shapechanging? From a fluff point, someone wouldn't really know their own or someone else's stats without going pretty far out of the way to reverse-engineer ability scores. Which could throw a huge wrench into the concept if there's multiple creatures of the same kind but different stats. I think my head's spinning now.
Oh good point. Hmm. I still prefer sticking to 3.5 RAW for my own answers, because it's at least limited, but all bets are off...

As for the second, you don't (IC), but you do (OOC) need to know the stats you end up with, and for a creature that's not statted up, I would say that leads to one of two things: a "stats undefined" error and a failed change, or a DM call "use creature x' stats for now", reducing the creature to a fluff variant of another.

[Quertus]

The rules ARE quite clear: A creature has to exist and be nonunique. Since the creature does not exist in our universe, you cannot change into it. It's fairly straight forward.


Citation, please. I didn't see the word "exist" in your quoted text.

Now, for clarification, you're saying that if Quertus, who is from a world with... say... Wild Placean Yeti, and I run him in a world that didn't have that indigenous species (say, one of yours), then, despite being familiar with the creature, he cannot change into it, because it does not exist?

Still curious about your read of this spell.

Suppose a wizard "invents" a new species, one never before seen in the world, and not published in any book. Gets a breeding population up and running. Studies them extensively. If he meets all other criteria, can he change into them?

Then, let's say a group of adventurers comes along, and murders every last one of them. They no longer exist. And, Heck, does the same to every other non-bipedal species on the planet. Does this affect what the wizard can change into?