Edition Conversion Munchkinism

[Matthew]

I was just reading through the 2e to 3e conversion booklet and I noticed an amusing possibility. Apparently, when converting Strength from 2e to 3e, 18/00 counts as Strength 23!

So, for a quick bit of apparently legal munchkinism, roll your Character up under 2e rules and convert him to 3e to get a Human Fighter 1 with an artificially high Strength.

My only real question, would anyone consider this RAW?

[Draz74]

Only if your DM is watching as you roll your strength, and confirms that you rolled up a 18/00 on your first try. :smalltongue:

[Matthew]

Heh, apparently even 2e Strength 18/01-50 counts as 3e Strength 19

[HidaTsuzua]

Considering the odds of having 18/00 Strength, you deserve that 23 Strength.

[Tormsskull]

My only real question, would anyone consider this RAW?

Well, when I asked what the definition of RAW was in another thread, several people said that if it is in a book written by Wizards of the coast, it is then RAW. Since 2e wasn't by WotC, I guess by that definition it is not RAW. But I am sure someone out there would probably say it is RAW. Even the definition of RAW is debateable.

[Swordguy]

Well, when I asked what the definition of RAW was in another thread, several people said that if it is in a book written by Wizards of the coast, it is then RAW. Since 2e wasn't by WotC, I guess by that definition it is not RAW. But I am sure someone out there would probably say it is RAW. Even the definition of RAW is debateable.

The conversion guide was written by WotC. Ergot, RAW.

[adanedhel9]

Considering the odds of having 18/00 Strength, you deserve that 23 Strength.

And why is it that you deserve it? Because you had a moment of luck?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Exactly. Same way you earn critical hits.

[HidaTsuzua]

It's a ~1:21600 chance (remember it was 3d6 not 4d6b3). Even then it was tough to make to anything remotely high level due to slower XP gain, no CR system, and an ubiquity of ways to easily die (lower HP, tons of monsters with saves or dies, saves being worse). Heck rezzing wasn't certain either due to a d% die roll for system shock. It's the same principle Dark Sun had. Sure you have can awesome stats, but it isn't going to help.

If you had a GM that won't kill you in 2nd ed D&D and made it easy to get 18/00 strength, then you had a GM that you could likely push around anyways making this question moot.

[Dausuul]

If I had a player who wanted to do this, I'd tell him or her to go ahead.

Of course, I would then give every player a starting XP total of 66,000. Which is enough to get a 3E fighter up to 12th level, but will leave a 2E fighter somewhere around 7th...

[Matthew]

Nah, the Conversion Guide provides experience conversion rules as well.

[bosssmiley]

Ergot, RAW.

I'd have to be eating some of the above before I considered allowing a straight percentile --> 3rd Ed Str conversion in one of my games. :smallbiggrin:

IIRC old Ed. 18/00 STR gave a +3/+6 bonus. Arguably that's a +3 stat mod in the new game, given that stat mods in 3rd Ed are more generous (starting at 12 instead of 15ish). Str 16-17 is still pretty exceptional on the bell curve of human ability (top 4% or so). I'd just say we've lost sight of that a little in this brave new world of stat adds by item/level, the seductive logic of open-ended stats, and "build = 20 levels" CharOp forum norms. :smallamused:

[nagora]

Well, when I asked what the definition of RAW was in another thread, several people said that if it is in a book written by Wizards of the coast, it is then RAW. Since 2e wasn't by WotC, I guess by that definition it is not RAW. But I am sure someone out there would probably say it is RAW. Even the definition of RAW is debateable.

If it's by Gygax it's RAW (A)D&D. WotC is just houserules.

[horseboy]

Wow, I might have to dig out my old 1edition UA calivlier(Paladin) with his 18/00 Str, Dex and Con.

[Swordguy]

Wow, I might have to dig out my old 1edition UA calivlier(Paladin) with his 18/00 Str, Dex and Con.

You had 18/00 DEX?! :smalleek:

...damn...

[Matthew]

Cavaliers, man; they had to have Strength, Dexterity and Constitution of 15 minimum and then got extra 'percentage' points as they went up levels.

[Curmudgeon]

The only bit of munchkinism I used was converting from a 2nd Ed. Thief, built using the Assassin template in Complete Thief's Handbook. This gave him proficiency with all weapons (and basically nothing else), so full use of a repeating heavy crossbow without a feat. Considering that Rogues are feat-poor, it was a nice little boost.

This went away because it wasn't grandfathered into the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion booklet. :smallsigh:

[MrNexx]

The only bit of munchkinism I used was converting from a 2nd Ed. Thief, built using the Assassin template in Complete Thief's Handbook. This gave him proficiency with all weapons (and basically nothing else), so full use of a repeating heavy crossbow without a feat. Considering that Rogues are feat-poor, it was a nice little boost.

Only if you horribly misread the kit.



Weapon Proficiencies: Because of their specialization in the art of killing, Assassins are permitted the use of any weapon.

These aren't bonuses, just what you're allowed to take. The Acrobat has similar verbiage allowing the use of any thief weapons. The bandit is specific that mentioned weapons are not bonuses.

Your DM let you get away with (ahem) murder. :smallbiggrin:

[KoDT69]

But in AD&D 2e, after getting that 18 STR score, didn't you have to roll a 100 on the percentiles for the chance to have exceptional strength? So you would have to roll 100 twice in a row to have 18/00 STR. In my 14 years of playing I legitimately had one character with 18/00, one with 18/92, and one with 18/48 with the exception of a 1e cavalier as mentioned above.

Now what I find scary about conversion is that a lot of permanent alterations to some of my 2e characters were completely unmentioned in the conversion. Yes I know they can't cover everything, but there were some pretty radical effects in 2e if you had the Encyclopedia Magica set (which I just dusted off last night and put on my new bookshelf :smallsmile:). Here is a short list of munchkin-tastic conversion benefits:

- Permanent immunities from certain elixers or the 100% result on "drinking 2 potions at one time" table - makes one of the 2 permanent
- any effect scaling stat points by level - 2e had a 25 stat cap then it didn't matter because the scaling stopped, but a high level character in 3e with a scaling effect on stats can get silly (I have one character converted ECL 80 with a 135 STR score without use of any magical items FTW!)
- 1e cavaliers at 20th level will have 23 STR, 23 DEX, and 23 CON in 3e
- custom classes - the 2e DMG had provisions to make new base classes which could have a much faster progression than the basic ones, but in 3e they don't exist, so by the conversion book you net a higher level (and more useful) character (I made a Sage class that only took like 30% of the XP a fighter would need to progress, although limited use, I could technically convert him to a bard/loremaster and 10x his power by the manual)
- wealth by level - nuff said

[Dausuul]

Nah, the Conversion Guide provides experience conversion rules as well.

That's exactly the point. The experience conversion rules preserve your level, not your XP total.


But in AD&D 2e, after getting that 18 STR score, didn't you have to roll a 100 on the percentiles for the chance to have exceptional strength? So you would have to roll 100 twice in a row to have 18/00 STR. In my 14 years of playing I legitimately had one character with 18/00, one with 18/92, and one with 18/48 with the exception of a 1e cavalier as mentioned above.

Hmm? I might be wrong, but as I recall, if you had an 18 Strength, all you had to do was be a fighter and you got a percentile roll.

[Matthew]

That's exactly the point. The experience conversion rules preserve your level, not your XP total.

The idea was really for Level 1 Characters. I think I see what you're saying.


Hmm? I might be wrong, but as I recall, if you had an 18 Strength, all you had to do was be a fighter and you got a percentile roll.

Pretty much correct. In 2e, any Warrior Class Character with Strength 18 automatically rolled 1D100 to determine their 'Percentile Strength'.

KoDT: I'm not really following a lot of what you're saying.

[Kurald Galain]

But in AD&D 2e, after getting that 18 STR score, didn't you have to roll a 100 on the percentiles for the chance to have exceptional strength?
No.



- Permanent immunities from certain elixers or the 100% result on "drinking 2 potions at one time" table - makes one of the 2 permanent
Optional rule, but very easy to convert: find the equivalent potion in 3E and consider it permanent.



- 1e cavaliers at 20th level will have 23 STR, 23 DEX, and 23 CON in 3e

For a 20th level char, I fail to see how scores of 23 are problematic.



- custom classes - the 2e DMG had provisions to make new base classes

That system is so horribly broken that any DM that lets you do that would probably be swayed by anything you say about its 3E conversion anyway. Pile on the disadvantages and you can easily make any class level for half the exp cost.

[Curmudgeon]

Weapon Proficiencies: Because of their specialization in the art of killing, Assassins, unlike thieves of other kits, are permitted the use of any weapon. An Assassin often selects one favored weapon, such as a garotte or serrated dagger (or even something exotic, such as blowgun darts with an exotic insect poison from a distant jungle), to use for his killings. If the Assassin achieves infamy, the marks of this weapon may become known as a sort of "calling card".

These aren't bonuses, just what you're allowed to take. The Acrobat has similar verbiage allowing the use of any thief weapons. The bandit is specific that mentioned weapons are not bonuses.

Your DM let you get away with (ahem) murder. :smallbiggrin: I don't understand your highlighted line above. My Thief used the repeating heavy crossbow as his signature weapon; he was partial to sniping from rooftops. I didn't claim that the kit would give more weapon proficiency slots, only that they could apply to any weapon -- including one that was "exotic" in both 2nd and 3rd Edition.
"I Created My Character with a Kit"
Weapon Proficiencies: If the character's class does not include a weapon that the kit requires, recommends, or gives the character for free, the character automatically gains proficiency in it without using up any feats.

Are you saying that his signature weapon, recommended in the Assassin's kit, shouldn't be a free proficiency?

[Matthew]

Actually, that's exactly what you said Curmudgeon:


The only bit of munchkinism I used was converting from a 2nd Ed. Thief, built using the Assassin template in Complete Thief's Handbook. This gave him proficiency with all weapons (and basically nothing else), so full use of a repeating heavy crossbow without a feat. Considering that Rogues are feat-poor, it was a nice little boost.

However, if you are not using Proficiencies, a reasonable argument could be made for the Assassin being 'proficient' in all those weapons.

Also, what are you referring to with regards to the Repeating Crossbow being 'Exotic' in 2e? There was no such classification, nor anything in the text of the item that would suggest it was different in any way from learning a normal Cross Bow. In fact they are explicitly listed as part of the Cross Bow Weapon Group Proficiency.


Are you saying that his signature weapon, recommended in the Assassin's kit, shouldn't be a free proficiency?

Indeed, there is no reason to grant the Assassin 'Free Proficiency' with his signature weapon.

[KoDT69]

For a 20th level char, I fail to see how scores of 23 are problematic.

OK this is based on the elite array for 1st level characters but:
The 3e character starts with 12-17 in their stats and by 20th level add 5 extra points.
The converted cavalier will have much higher stats to work with. It's not an issue depending on the campaign of course, but seems a bit unfair in the favor of the older player vs. a new player who doesn't have a 2e character to convert.

The potion thing, that one is subjective to the DM. I don't remember a thing in the conversion manual about it. There were elixers in 2e that made you permanently immune to death magic, critical hits, disease, etc. that IRC by RAW would still apply. Not sure how much that would unbalance anybody else's campaign though?

Exceptional STR - OK guys I stand corrected. It's been what, 6 years or so since then? Meh.

[Matthew]

I'm confused to how you are working this out:

Are you assuming a Cavalier with starting Attributes of Strength 18/00, Dexterity 18/00 and Constitution 18/00, who gains the maximum number of Advancement Points in each Attribute at each level from 1 to 20?

To be fair, you would have to assume the same starting Attributes for the 3e Character.

[Curmudgeon]

Actually, that's exactly what you said Curmudgeon:
This gave him proficiency with all weapons (and basically nothing else) Hmm. I guess I was assuming the limit on number of weapon slots went without saying. My mistake.

Also, what are you referring to with regards to the Repeating Crossbow being 'Exotic' in 2e? There was no such classification, nor anything in the text of the item that would suggest it was different in any way from learning a normal Cross Bow. In fact they are explicitly listed as part of the Cross Bow Weapon Group Proficiency.In the first place, we weren't using the Weapon Group Proficiency rules from PLAYER'S OPTION: Skills & Powers . And in the second place, repeating heavy crossbows aren't on the core equipment list; they came from some module, IIRC. That's why they were exotic.

Indeed, there is no reason to grant the Assassin 'Free Proficiency' with his signature weapon.So you think
Assassins ... are permitted the use of any weapon and
If the character's class does not include a weapon that the kit ... recommends, the character automatically gains proficiency in it without using up any feats. together mean nothing?

I'm flummoxed.

[Matthew]

In the first place, we weren't using the Weapon Group Proficiency rules from PLAYER'S OPTION: Skills & Powers . And in the second place, repeating heavy crossbows aren't on the core equipment list; they came from some module, IIRC. That's why they were exotic.

Well, if you ever do remember which module this appeared in, do share.


So you think and together mean nothing?

I'm flummoxed.

Why do you insist on quoting things that don't exist? There were no feats in 2e and there is no rule that I can find that resembles what you are saying.


Weapon Proficiencies:
If you're using the weapon proficiency rules from AD&D® 2nd Edition, then your kit could require your thief to take specific weapon proficiencies. Or, he might have to choose one from a limited range; the Bandit, for instance, is required to take one bludgeoning weapon.
Some kits (Assassins, for example) are permitted a wider range of weapons than normal thieves. This, too, is noted under weapon proficiencies.
Unlike nonweapon proficiencies, below, weapon proficiencies required for a thief kit are NOT bonuses unless otherwise specified. They must be taken to fill the weapon proficiency slots normally given to a first level thief.

[Edit]
Wait, I think I get what you are saying. That's from the Conversion Booklet, isn't it? Okay, I think we're on the same page now. Yeah, actually that's a good workaround as well. Converting 2e Characters with Kits over to 3e can net you some nice advantages.

[KoDT69]

I'm confused to how you are working this out:

Are you assuming a Cavalier with starting Attributes of Strength 18/00, Dexterity 18/00 and Constitution 18/00, who gains the maximum number of Advancement Points in each Attribute at each level from 1 to 20?

To be fair, you would have to assume the same starting Attributes for the 3e Character.

No that is the point dude. To be fair, everyone should have rolled up a fresh 3e character. The converted one has much higher stats overall. A fresh 3e character does not get stats that high. :smallsigh:

[Matthew]

Note the title of this Thread - Munchkinism. Fairness is not an issue.

[KoDT69]

Yes as in this simple formula:

Muchkinism = Unfair advantage (but technically allowable in-game)

[Matthew]

Hah, hah. No, I mean by way of comparison. It's one thing to bend the rules of fairness, it's quite another to compare things unfairly.

[KoDT69]

I can agree with that, my point was really that a converted character can gain advantages that fresh 3e characters can't get. The DM can always allow inflated stats for the fresh 3e to compensate.

[Roderick_BR]

I'd allow it... IF (a very big IF)
We were converting an old character from 2nd edition to 3rd. An already existing character, and existing characters need to be allowed by the DM, even if it's from another 3.x game.
I could allow my friend to bring back his old barbarian with Str 18/00 if he wanted, because that character was hella fun, but if it's a new char, nopes. Start in 3.x like everyone else.

And no pulling 2nd edition chairs magically out of nowhere :smalltongue:

[horseboy]

I'm confused to how you are working this out:

Are you assuming a Cavalier with starting Attributes of Strength 18/00, Dexterity 18/00 and Constitution 18/00, who gains the maximum number of Advancement Points in each Attribute at each level from 1 to 20?

To be fair, you would have to assume the same starting Attributes for the 3e Character.

Not the PrC Cavalier, but the old First edition Cavalier. To be a paladin after the First Unearthed Arcana you had to be a cavalier. That meant your character had to start out as:
Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, IntX, WisX, Cha 17, ComX

In first edition, when a cavalier went up in levels you rolled % for Str, and then added that to your stat. You then did the same thing for Dex and then Con. On average that meant half of your stats went up every other level. So that means that at between 8 an 12 you had 3 18/00 stats, and a 17.

In converting this character to 3rd, he'd be stupidly powerful. since an 18/00 is the same as a 23 before any magical items would be applied.

[Matthew]

Yeah, I know which version it is. Are you sure you were playing it right? As far as my copy of the book says, after Level 1, it's 2D10 Percentile Points per Level applied to each Physical Stat, not roll percentile dice.

So for example:


Human Cavalier Paladin 1
Strength 15/67
Dexterity 15/80
Constitution 15/21

Advances to Level 2, roll 2D10 [Result 11], add to Attributes:

Human Cavalier Paladin 2
Strength 15/78
Dexterity 15/91
Constitution 15/32

18/00 in the Conversion Booklet only applies to Strength. I was allowing for advancement beyond 18/00 (which is technically illegal, I know, but I was trying to figure out how KoDT was calculating things)

[horseboy]

Yeah, I know which version it is. Are you sure you were playing it right? As far as my copy of the book says, after Level 1, it's 2D10 Percentile Points per Level applied to each Physical Stat, not roll percentile dice.

So for example:

18/00 in the Conversion Booklet only applies to Strength. I was allowing for advancement beyond 18/00 (which is technically illegal, I know, but I was trying to figure out how KoDT was calculating things)

Hmm, there might have been an "Oops." 20 years in the making there. :smallamused:

[Curmudgeon]

[Edit]
Wait, I think I get what you are saying. That's from the Conversion Booklet, isn't it? Okay, I think we're on the same page now. Yeah, actually that's a good workaround as well. Converting 2e Characters with Kits over to 3e can net you some nice advantages. Glad we're communicating, finally. Yeah, it was a nice bit of legal munchkinism for that character, up until the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion no longer grandfathered 2nd Edition kit features.

I just thought of one other conversion munchkinism that I've used: "retroactive" skill point bonuses for increased INT. Sometime during his 2nd Edition career my character acquired a Ring of Three Wishes and a Tome of Clear Thought, resulting in a total inherent boost of +4 to his INT. The Conversion Manual didn't say anything about adjusting for inherent bonuses (and I didn't record which level(s) he was when these boosts occurred anyway), so I had to treat him as starting life with a 20 INT. Nice for the skill points.

[Matthew]

Hmm, there might have been an "Oops." 20 years in the making there. :smallamused:

I had an inkling that might be the case... oh well, what's done is done.


Glad we're communicating, finally. Yeah, it was a nice bit of legal munchkinism for that character, up until the 3.0 -> 3.5 conversion no longer grandfathered 2nd Edition kit features.

Yes, I was mightily confused about what you were saying. Did they release a new AD&D to 3.5 Conversion Booklet or something? Couldn't you just convert AD&D 2e to 3e to 3.5 and get your Kit in that way?

[Edit]
Actually, I went back and checked the wording of that Kit thing and it appears that whilst broadly true, in your specific case the Assassin Kit grants no free Weapon Proficiencies. The reason for this is that the Assassin Kit grants no Weapon Proficiencies as a Bonus, nor does it Recommend or Require any, which are the only three conditions under which this would work. You have to quote the passage in context to perceive this.