Experienced Warlock Players, how do you deal with 2 level chameleon dip?

[RoboEmperor]

I really, really, really want that floating bonus feat. Problem is, 2 level dip is kinda character killing. So how do you deal with it?

[DEMON]

I really, really, really want that floating bonus feat. Problem is, 2 level dip is kinda character killing. So how do you deal with it?

In what way is it killing? The gains aren't half bad and the sacrifices seem worth it.

The prereqs are quite easy to pass, so if you get in early (6th level), the 0-2nd level spells, you get access to, are still relevant. And if you go in past level 12, the floating feat is your Imbue Item ability's best friend.

And in the long run of 20 levels, all you're giving up is a single Dark Invoication and a few irrelevant abilities (+1d6 EB, +1 DR/cold iron and 5 points of energy resistance against 2 energy types).

[ksbsnowowl]

On adventuring days you can make up for your loss of 1d6 Eldritch Blast damage by picking Mortal Bane, or Extra Invocation, to up your damage potential, or array of magical abilities.

[GrayDeath]

On adventuring days you can make up for your loss of 1d6 Eldritch Blast damage by picking Mortal Bane, or Extra Invocation, to up your damage potential, or array of magical abilities.

This, also rods of Eldritch Shapes are your friend for saving otherwise used Invocation Slots.

[RoboEmperor]

In what way is it killing? The gains aren't half bad and the sacrifices seem worth it.

The prereqs are quite easy to pass, so if you get in early (6th level), the 0-2nd level spells, you get access to, are still relevant. And if you go in past level 12, the floating feat is your Imbue Item ability's best friend.

And in the long run of 20 levels, all you're giving up is a single Dark Invoication and a few irrelevant abilities (+1d6 EB, +1 DR/cold iron and 5 points of energy resistance against 2 energy types).

You get your chameleon levels at level 6 and 7 right? At that level that 1d6 damage drop is huge, and all you get in return is a floatable least invocation and level 2 arcane/divine spells, which at best is like grease and glitterdust.

It might be better to wait until level 11 to start dipping, so you have a great invocation and a floatable lesser invocation, but again your damage output suffers and you probably want to go hellfire warlock at this stage.

Ok, I think I got it. Hellfire Warlock + Rod of Eldritch Shapes can overcome the drop in damage and invocations, and I'll get chameleon after all 3 levels of hellfire warlock.

[Thurbane]

Also, Chasuble of Fell Power (8,000gp, +1d6; or greater 18,000 +2d6) and Warlock's Sceptre (8,305gp, up to +4d6, limited uses/day) add to Eldritch Blast. Both in the MIC.

[Celestia]

You get your chameleon levels at level 6 and 7 right? At that level that 1d6 damage drop is huge, and all you get in return is a floatable least invocation and level 2 arcane/divine spells, which at best is like grease and glitterdust.

It might be better to wait until level 11 to start dipping, so you have a great invocation and a floatable lesser invocation, but again your damage output suffers and you probably want to go hellfire warlock at this stage.

Ok, I think I got it. Hellfire Warlock + Rod of Eldritch Shapes can overcome the drop in damage and invocations, and I'll get chameleon after all 3 levels of hellfire warlock.
"Huge?" That's three damage. I assure you that you'll never run into a situation where you'll desperately need to do an extra three damage. The versatility from the Chameleon casting is worth far more, especially if you get it while second level spells are still relevant.

And even if you do really care, Practiced Spellcaster can make up for your lost Blast damage.

[Tiri]

Practiced Spellcaster can make up for your lost Blast damage.

It can't, actually. Eldritch Blast damage is based on Warlock level, not Caster Level. If you houserule it that way in your games, it isn't going to unbalance anything, but a houserule it would be.

[RoboEmperor]

"Huge?" That's three damage. I assure you that you'll never run into a situation where you'll desperately need to do an extra three damage. The versatility from the Chameleon casting is worth far more, especially if you get it while second level spells are still relevant.

And even if you do really care, Practiced Spellcaster can make up for your lost Blast damage.

That 3 damage is actually a 33.3333% increase in DPS, and level 6 is your first lesser invocation.

Maybe level 7-8 dip is better. Probably Divine over Arcane spells because of paladin's level 1 lesser restoration for hellfire warlock, unless I'm reading something wrong.

But yeah, the smart people in this thread provided alternate ways of keeping your damage relevant even with that dip.

[prototype00]

You do other things with the floating feat.

Do you have access to Incarnum? Because if you do, you just got free powers via basically free soulmelds.

-Become Immune to Flanking (Threefold Mask of the Chimera)
-Become Immune to Mind control (as Protection from Evil) (Planar Ward)
-Gain the Diehard feat (basically) (Bloodtalons)
-Gain free teleportation 10' (Blink Shirt)
-Gain +1 to most applicable rolls 1/turn (Lucky Dice)
-Gain +4 to Use Magic Device checks (Mage's Spectacles
-Gain Telepathy and Mindsight (!!!) (Requires you to take the Open Least Chakra feat at 6th level, then bind the Shedu Crown to your brow)

Depending on how high your Con is, you can take anywhere from a couple to all of these abilities just by turning lvl 7.

I mean, its not damage, but seeing as how just taking a week off gets you a whole bunch of new abilities (shape one soulmeld/day) thats a sweet deal!

prototype00

[Celestia]

It can't, actually. Eldritch Blast damage is based on Warlock level, not Caster Level. If you houserule it that way in your games, it isn't going to unbalance anything, but a houserule it would be.
Not officially, no, but the designer approves of that use for the feat.

[Tiri]

Not officially, no, but the designer approves of that use for the feat.

That just means that he happens to houserule it that way too. It isn't a significant point in favour of allowing it or not.

[RoboEmperor]

Not officially, no, but the designer approves of that use for the feat.

Do you have a source supporting this?

[Celestia]

Do you have a source supporting this?
Not since Wizards took down their site.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd definitely go in at ~7th, because otherwise you won't be able to make use of the floating feat for extra invocations. Any way you slice it, you'll be at your absolute nadir in terms of blast power at that point, until you can muster more magic items and feats to support it, which are level independent... And the Chameleon spells are at their peak in terms of power. Don't forget that you can steal things from any list-- grab Animate Dead as a 2nd from the Death Master, grab Paladin, Ranger, and Assassin stuff... Heck, grab the entire Trapsmith list. It's good stuff. Delaying your damage by 1d6 isn't a big deal, though delaying higher-level invocations might smart. You ARE trading power for option, though, so... <shrug>


That just means that he happens to houserule it that way too. It isn't a significant point in favour of allowing it or not.
I mean, it's not a significant point in terms of RAW, but it's a pretty good supporting argument for that houserule.

[Thurbane]

RAW, increasing the CL won't increase the damage (I was under this misapprehension for a long time, as well), but would it affect the save DC of rider effects, such as Sickening Blast, or does that depend on character level rather than caster level?

Never mind, Eldritch Essences have the own equivalent spell levels that you base the DC on.

Also, I feel I should point out, I don't believe Practiced Spellcaster actually works for Warlocks/SLAs. I checked complete arcane, and I don't think it it's under the Warlock's special exceptions? The feat you'd actually need is Practiced Magic, from the Shackled City hardcover - this works very much like Practiced Spellcaster, but explicitly for SLAs.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

A two-level dip into Chameleon and then Hellfire Warlock can be pretty good.

[phlidwsn]

Do you have a source supporting this?

I still had the old bookmark floating around to feed into the Wayback Machine:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110825015745/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19520666/Warlock_Faq_by_Rich_Baker

[DarkSonic1337]

There's a section in the chameleon handbbook specifically about grabbing discount spells from obscure lists. 2nd level chameleon casting is NOT just stuff like glitterdust and grease.

[RoboEmperor]

Alrighty, so now the only thing stopping me from grabbing chameleon is craft construct's requirements XD

I'd really like to go divine focus, but alas as wis is my warlock's dump stat, probably have to go arcane.

[death390]

pick up the chameleon levels at 7&8 in my opinion (6 gets you your fly invocation). also best item i ever got for a warlock early was unlimited gloves of entangling blast. if i remember it was a 3/day item so multiply base cost by 5/3 to create the unlimited use/day version.