What if Elan and Nale switch places

[PieTin-11]

Okay I know that I posted a thread about this before but that was more of a discussion and brainstorming. Now after some thinking and rereading I can now say for certain what i believed would have happened if the Tarquin twins were given to opposite parents. So Let's begin

Let's start with Elan. Given the fact that Elan's lack of intelligence is from brain trauma caused by pre-separation and not entirely from his environment we can say that he still wouldn't be smart by any means. Most likely Elan would be Tarquin's idiot henchman/heir to the family business of empire building. Most likely Elan wouldn't of betrayed Tarquin, the linear guild would never form and Malack's kids would be alive.

We don't know much about Elan's early life besides that he was raised in a small village by a barmaid. So we have no idea if the same series of events that lead to elan becoming a bard would happen to Nale. If he doesn't then he's basically kicked out of the story. If not he would of never gotten abandoned by Francois and continue to adventure with him, also kicking him out of the story. Sorry Nale.

The events of On The Origins Of PCs would play out until Roy and Durkon go and search for a party as Elan gave them advice for recruiting adventurers that resulted in them meeting V, Haley, and Belkar. However for the sake of convenience that eventually Roy finds the only three adventurers in that city that were willing to go with him on a near suicide mission for no direct pay. Thus The Order Of The Stick (minus elan) was formed.

The order heads to the tower of Dorukon. This time however they aren't slowed down by Elan's shenanigans or the Linear guild. After the order "defeats" Xycon the party continues to ransack every corner of the dungeon before leaving. Without Elan pressing the self destruct there's nothing stopping them from getting that sweet sweet treasure and XP. Xycon still flees his occupied tower to the sunken hills to try his back-up plan.

Once the order returns to town they split the treasure and recover. Without Sabine to trick Roy into going onto the star metal quest Roy can get his sword repaired immediately. That night Roy gets a message from his father through his newly repaired sword. Eugene tells Roy how much of an idiot fighter he is and how he couldn't even get the job done. Roy is obviously confused by this. Eugene proceeds to tell him that Xycon is still alive and is raising a hobgoblin army to raid a major southern port city. The next morning Roy tells the other party members and they decide to go south and finish what they started.

That's all I was willing to write right now. What do you think? Do you think this is any accurate? if not tell me.

[JustIgnoreMe]

What makes you say that it is a fact that Elan has low Int from brain damage? That one panel joke from an early strip? What reason do you have to think that was any more than a throwaway gag?

[BaronOfHell]

Thanks for a very good read!

One could imagine that the Order minus Elan would crash in on Xykon just as he had already lost to the Dragon and therefore would be easy to defeat. On the other hand one could imagine that perhaps without Elan, dungeons of Dorukan could have gone much different, a lot worse even.

That aside, where I think the story would be different from what you present is the formation of the party. Roy would not be able to form a party, so when he return to Durkon he ends up with the 2 members Durkon found, they destroy Xykon during the following 2 pages and everything is dandy. :)

[PieTin-11]

What makes you say that it is a fact that Elan has low Int from brain damage? That one panel joke from an early strip? What reason do you have to think that was any more than a throwaway gag?

While it was a throwaway gag it is the only cannon reason given why Elan is as inept as he is.

[PieTin-11]

That aside, where I think the story would be different from what you present is the formation of the party. Roy would not be able to form a party, so when he return to Durkon he ends up with the 2 members Durkon found, they destroy Xykon during the following 2 pages and everything is dandy. :)

I thought of that as well but I decided to assume against going that route as it would make the story a lot shorter and less interesting. I'd like to think that Roy would eventually find the adventurer's bar out of advice of others beside Elan or getting a drink out of frustration.

[JustIgnoreMe]

While it was a throwaway gag it is the only cannon reason given why Elan is as inept as he is.
Or he could just have low Int. Like Thog does. The Giant said (I think) that Elan and Nale have the same physical scores, but different mental ones, and given that Nature vs Nurture is a pretty big theme of the Elan-Nale story, why not assume that Elan's low Int is due to his upbringing?

Saying "he's stupid so he must have brain damage" is pretty offensive. Why can't he just have low Int without it being due to being hit on the head with a baby rattle by his identical twin? Which, by the way, wouldn't cause brain damage.

[Jay R]

... why not assume that Elan's low Int is due to his upbringing?

Because we've been told otherwise, by the only authority there is on the subject.


Saying "he's stupid so he must have brain damage" is pretty offensive.

Fortunately, nobody has said that. We've said that we were shown that the explanation for the apparent gulf in their mental faculties was caused by Nale hitting his twin brother in his soft undeveloped baby skull (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

Not "assume ..."
Not "he must ..."
Simply that the question has been answered in the source material.


Why can't he just have low Int without it being due to being hit on the head with a baby rattle by his identical twin?

He could have. But in this story, he didn't. And you don't have the authority to change Rich's published story.


Which, by the way, wouldn't cause brain damage.

And by the way, getting various negative brain effects from being hit in the head is a story-telling trope, and is therefore perfectly appropriate for Elan's story.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Because we've been told otherwise, by the only authority there is on the subject.
I'm not sure that a single panel flashback joke counts as Word of Giant that Elan is brain-damaged. Even using the Class & Level Geekery rule that "We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.", remember that no character has ever said that Elan has brain damage (V's comments about him being "addle-brained" aside: it's clearly a hyperbolic insult).


Fortunately, nobody has said that.

Given the fact that Elan's lack of intelligence is from brain trauma
Looks like an inference of it to me, although I'll accept my choice of wording could have been better.


We've said that we were shown that the explanation for the apparent gulf in their mental faculties was caused by Nale hitting his twin brother in his soft undeveloped baby skull (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

Not "assume ..."
Not "he must ..."
Simply that the question has been answered in the source material.
I don't accept that interpretation of the strip. It's a flashback joke from within the first 100 strips. Did Durkon literally turn into a box of Band-Aids in Strip #6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html)? If you can accept that as a joke, why not this?

I'm pretty certain that Elan doesn't have brain damage. The "gulf in (their) mental faculties" simply can't be blamed on brain damage, or even on Nale hitting Elan in the head. Babies hit themselves and each other in the head pretty often, and Elan is showing no other symptoms of brain damage. He's just got a low Int.

(A side note: if Baby Nale was capable of causing permanent Int-damage to Baby Elan, he'd have needed some pretty special feat choices and a lot more levels that you'd expect at that age).

[littlebum2002]

I'm not sure that a single panel flashback joke counts as Word of Giant that Elan is brain-damaged. Even using the Class & Level Geekery rule that "We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.", remember that no character has ever said that Elan has brain damage (V's comments about him being "addle-brained" aside: it's clearly a hyperbolic insult).

...

I don't accept that interpretation of the strip.



While it may, in fact, have just been a throwaway gag, it also may be canon. So basically what you're saying is:

"It's offensive that they interpreted an online comic in a different way than I did"

And is that really a good reason for being offended? The idea that Elan is unintelligent because of brain damage IS IN THE STRIP. You don't take it as canon? No one really cares, because we do. Saying Elan is unintelligent because of brain damage isn't called "being offensive", it's called "reading and interpreting text".

Now if that throwaway gag wasn't there, and someone just brought up the idea that Elan might have brain damage? Then yeah, I'd totally empathize with you on that one.



Babies hit themselves and each other in the head pretty often, and Elan is showing no other symptoms of brain damage. He's just got a low Int.

Not sure if you've noticed this before, but did you realize this strip has dragons and our world doesn't? Or that a man in this strip can throw another grown man hundreds of feet whereas that is not possible in our world? Did you know that in the real world people cannot create fireballs and lightning like Vaarsuvius does?

I'm pointing this out because you seem to be laboring under the assumption that this world follows the same rules as ours, so maybe you missed these things.

[JustIgnoreMe]

While it may, in fact, have just been a throwaway gag, it also may be canon. So basically what you're saying is:

"It's offensive that they interpreted an online comic in a different way than I did".
Nope. That's a strawman. I said, specifically,
Saying "he's stupid so he must have brain damage" is pretty offensive. And I'll stand by that. Acquired Brain Injury doesn't necessarily lead to any loss of intelligence, or mental capacity. I believe (but can't find the quote) the Giant has said that Elan, for all his naivety, is still able to function as an adult.


Saying Elan is unintelligent because of brain damage isn't called "being offensive", it's called "reading and interpreting text".
And I am saying that the text can be interpreted another way, and that the interpretation some people seem to be using is not supported or borne out by the rest of the text.


Not sure if you've noticed this before, but did you realize this strip has dragons and our world doesn't? Or that a man in this strip can throw another grown man hundreds of feet whereas that is not possible in our world? Did you know that in the real world people cannot create fireballs and lightning like Vaarsuvius does?

I'm pointing this out because you seem to be laboring under the assumption that this world follows the same rules as ours, so maybe you missed these things.

Gosh, a sarcastic response: that's really progressive to the discussion!

A standard D&D 3.5 game world runs on normal Real-World logic except where the rules say otherwise. That's the default. OotS started as a D&D3/3.5 game world, and was still one at Strip #50.

On the other hand, if you'd like to stat out exactly how Baby Nale was able to do Int-damage to Baby Elan, using D&D 3/3.5 rules, please be my guest. Sneak Attack options would probably be the way to go.

And to respond to the earlier edit of your post: we have no evidence that Baby Nale hit Baby Elan more than once. None whatsoever. And I would suggest that their care-giver, whoever that may have been, would have been unlikely to have allowed multiple savage beatings to continue to the point of brain damage.

[Peelee]

I said, specifically,
Saying "he's stupid so he must have brain damage" is pretty offensive. And I'll stand by that.

Honest question here, how offensive is it if we actually see the brain damage occur? Saying "he's stupid so he must have brain damage" implies that the brain damage is completely unknown and purely assumed, but what about an instance where brain damage is known?

[littlebum2002]

Nope. That's a strawman. I said, specifically,


Saying "he's stupid so he must have brain damage" is pretty offensive.
And I'll stand by that. Acquired Brain Injury doesn't necessarily lead to any loss of intelligence, or mental capacity. I believe (but can't find the quote) the Giant has said that Elan, for all his naivety, is still able to function as an adult.



How ironic, that you clearly know what a strawman argument is, and then proceed immediately to use one.

Not one person in this thread has ever said "Elan is stupid so he must have brain damage" (well except you of course). Since no one said the thing that offends you, why are you offended? We simply said "The strip implied that Elan had brain damage, so we believe Elan has brain damage". Our belief in Elan's brain damage has nothing to do with his actions and everything to do with the panel in which it is heavily implied that Nale gave him brain damage.



And I am saying that the text can be interpreted another way, and that the interpretation some people seem to be using is not supported or borne out by the rest of the text.


Right, but you see that is what we call an "opinion" not a "fact". Your opinion is that the strip was a throwaway, our opinion is that it wasn't. Again, you're offended because we are interpreting this panel differently than you did, whether you want to admit that or not.



Gosh, a sarcastic response: that's really progressive to the discussion!

A standard D&D 3.5 game world runs on normal Real-World logic except where the rules say otherwise. That's the default. OotS started as a D&D3/3.5 game world, and was still one at Strip #50.

On the other hand, if you'd like to stat out exactly how Baby Nale was able to do Int-damage to Baby Elan, using D&D 3/3.5 rules, please be my guest. Sneak Attack options would probably be the way to go.

And to respond to the earlier edit of your post: we have no evidence that Baby Nale hit Baby Elan more than once. None whatsoever. And I would suggest that their care-giver, whoever that may have been, would have been unlikely to have allowed multiple savage beatings to continue to the point of brain damage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abusive_head_trauma


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention identifies SBS as "an injury to the skull or intracranial contents of an infant or young child (< 5 years of age) due to inflicted blunt impact and/or violent shaking"

...

Prognosis depends on severity and can range from total recovery to severe disability to death when the injury is severe. One third of these patients die, one third survives with a major neurological condition, and only one third survives in good condition. The most frequent neurological impairments are learning disabilities...

So maybe their parents used the old school glass baby bottles. I really doubt repeatedly hitting a toddler on the head with a glass bottle would have a positive impact on their brain development.

There, I used real-world logic to solve the problem, is that good enough?

[JustIgnoreMe]

Honest question here, how offensive is it if we actually see the brain damage occur? Saying "he's stupid so he must have brain damage" implies that the brain damage is completely unknown and purely assumed, but what about an instance where brain damage is known?

But we don't see the brain damage occur. We see Nale hit Elan once. Arguably we don't even see an injury occur: just a hit. ABI is an invisible illness anyway: there might be no visible symptoms.

[littlebum2002]

But we don't see the brain damage occur. We see Nale hit Elan once. Arguably we don't even see an injury occur: just a hit. ABI is an invisible illness anyway: there might be no visible symptoms.

in·fer·ence
/ˈinf(ə)rəns/
noun

a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.


If you read the following:

Nale: I'm also unable to explain the apparent gulf in our mental faculties...

Then cutaway to a picture of one Nale hitting Elan on the head with the text
Elan's Mother: Nale! Stop hitting your twin brother in his soft undeveloped baby skull!

Do you really not understand that we are to infer that Nale hitting Elan caused the apparent gulf in their mental faculties? I mean, I understand you think it's just a joke, but joke or not the comic is clearly inferring implying that Nale gave Elan brain damage.



You also have failed to explain why you keep mentioning a sentence that you're offended by ("he's stupid so he must have brain damage"), despite no one actually saying it.

[VanFanel]

Would you please stop arguing about this matter and go back telling a funny story about switched twins? :) :) :)

[JustIgnoreMe]

Do you really not understand that we are to infer that Nale hitting Elan caused the apparent gulf in their mental faculties? I mean, I understand you think it's just a joke, but joke or not the comic is clearly inferring that Nale gave Elan brain damage.
You can infer that, if you like: the comic does not infer anything (it might imply something, but it does not infer).

That inference of yours is not supported by the rest of the text: no other strip suggests Elan has brain damage, or that Nale hitting him is the cause of his low Int. It's a punchline, not a diagnosis.

The author's intent (so much as it is relevant) was to make you laugh and move on.


You also have failed to explain why you keep mentioning a sentence that you're offended by ("he's stupid so he must have brain damage"), despite no one actually saying it.
Another strawman: I said it once and have already clarified it with an example from this thread.

[Jay R]

Give it up, folks.

If the actual comic strip doesn't convince him, nothing we say will.

[Ruck]

My interpretation is also that the flashback panel is a joke, and does not mean Elan's low INT specifically came from Nale hitting him. (I think the Giant himself has said that, though I'm not handy with a quote.)

[goodpeople25]

Elan having brain damage is not a fact at this time (from what I know of course) I'll straight out agree with that. (and maybe it should/could have stopped there).

I'll also put out there I lean towards it being more of a one panel joke, but with potential/possibility to be otherwise. (Don't think it's very likely to be brought up now, but I don't think that's the point) As well I disagree on there being no other canon explanation for Elan being Elan, that stuck out as being pretty iffy to me.

[littlebum2002]

You can infer that, if you like: the comic does not infer anything (it might imply something, but it does not infer).

Good point!


That inference of yours is not supported by the rest of the text: no other strip suggests Elan has brain damage, or that Nale hitting him is the cause of his low Int.

Ahhhh, OK, gotcha. Today I Learned something needs to be said twice in a work in order to be considered canon. I guess I'm the dumb one for not knowing that rule!

(On a side note, can you please cite a source for the rule that something only mentioned once in a work of fiction isn't considered canon? Thanks.)




Another strawman: I said it once and have already clarified it with an example from this thread.

Again, you are absolutely correct, I missed that, and I apologize.

[Samzat]

Whats odd about the whole thing with Nale is that he is not the same evil variety as Tarquin. He is far more chaotic and impulsive, acting only out of anger and lust for maximum power. Tarquin acts out of lust for a stable power source. Is it possible that Elan was wrong, and that Nale is just plain evil? Though this is perhaps a bad indicatior, note that he, as an infant pre separation, is wearing red and already starting to grow an evil goattee. This gag has been used several times, but it seems more like a device to distinguish between the two in flashbacks.

As for the 'two appearances rule' does that mean that the coffee ranger from A Brief Intermission (couldnt find it, sorry) and strip 350 last panel are canon

[JbeJ275]

I think the problem here is that at people are ignoring the order present close to the top of the posts of one side, the order in question being 'just ignore me'.