Help me Build the Ultimate Face

[lylsyly]

I am going to be joining a new group in a few weeks for a Lvl 1-20 campaign and have been asked to play the party face (rest of the team is pretty much the standard 4 ... Barbarian, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard).

Seeing how I have never played a face before and apparently the campaign is going to involve a lot of face time/interactions I am turning to the playground's expertise in character building.

Any 3.0 or 3.5 1st party publication, Drag Mag, Pathfinder (SRD only), WotC Web are allowed (others sources may be considered), two Traits and two Flaws (must be roleplayed or xp penalties will be incurred), LA buyoff in effect (but limited to a total of +2 LA).

I would like to maintain at least a secondary melee capability (or another support role) if possible, but NOT at the expense of weakening my Face skills.

OK gentlebeings, show me what you've got.

EDIT: 32 Point Buy

[Thurbane]

Half-elf Bard X/Binder 1/Warlock 1?

With flaws, you can grab Human Heritage and Able Learner, if you want, so your skills don't suffer too much in your non-Bard levels. It will also allow you to slot in Intimidation as a "class skill" through your dips.

Half-elf? For the Sociable Personality feat (RoD, half elf only). Let's you reroll botched Diplomacy and Gather checks. Has diminishing returns once your check modifiers are quite high. Hlaf-elf also gives small racial bonuses to Diplomacy and Gather information checks. You might prefer just to go Human or a Cha bonus race instead.

Feat-wise, I'd also recommend Master Manipulator and maybe Wanderer's Diplomacy (both PHB2). Both give you some special uses for your social skills (the latter isn't as good as the former).

Binder 1 lets you bind Naberius. Silver Tongue lets you take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks, and more importantly, lets you use Diplomacy as a standard action with no penalty. Naberius also gets some other neat abilities; and on days when you're not being the face, you can bind other vestiges for more utility.

Warlock 1 is optional, but can get you Beguiling Influence gets you a +6 untyped bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate [if you wanted to go Rogue instead of Bard, it also gives you a nice at will touch attack for sneak attacking; limited to 1/round, though, so not that great at higher levels].

Obviously, you'll want Glibness as a spell once you can get it. +30 on Bluff checks and defend against magical lie detection.

...be aware the once you pump Diplomacy to massive levels, your DM is likely to throw books at you. Most encounters will end with the bad guys being your new besties, which can get really boring really quickly.

[mabriss lethe]

Seconding the inclusion of Binder. Naberius is a solid gold bind for a face character.

Of course, if you're dealing in diplomacy you have to be aware of the a certain optimization threshold. Basically, with a high enough roll, diplomacy becomes tantamount to mind control. If you push it that far, the game tends to break down. If you don't push it that far, it's still a rather good skill and can reshape encounters, just not "immediately create a cadre of zealots willing to live and die by your whim within a few turns" sort of broken.

[Waker]

One level of Changeling Rogue acf gives you 10 skill points for the level rather than 8 (X4 at 1st level), quicker Gather Information and Sense Motive checks, plus the ability to take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information and Sense Motive. (Races of Eberron)

One level of Marshal gives you Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and a minor aura Motivate Charisma, so you get Charisma to your Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate twice. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)

[daremetoidareyo]

Cards over swords. Undead empathy. Wanderers diplomacy. Wanderers diplomacy and cards over swords are optimize this feat subjects.

[lylsyly]

Okay, I’d like to thank everyone that responded.

So far I have a Female (always) Human ½ Fey (everyone in the group is taking a template or Race/Template that adds up to +2LA) Bard 1/Marshal 1/Binder1/Warlock 1/Bard +2/Mindbender 1/Bard +13 (or some PRCs to enhance either Face, Music, or Spellcasting.

Feats
Human Bonus: Able Learner = All skills are “in-class” and only cost 1 skill point.

1st: Born under the Crescent Moon (DR340 p56) = +1 bonus on Sense Motive & Spot checks. Detect Thoughts,
1/day as a Spell-like Ability. DC is Charisma-based. Caster level is your Character level. I really like this feat.

Flaw: Negotiator = +2 bonus to Diplomacy & Sense Motive checks.

Flaw: Nymph’s Kiss +2 bonus on all Charisma-based skill checks, +1 bonus on saving throws against spells & spell-like abilities, +1 skill point per level, starting at this level. I really like this feat.

2nd (Marshal Bonus): Skill Focus: Diplomacy +3 bonus to all diplomacy checks

3rd Nimbus of Light +2 on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks with good creatures

So at third level I am getting Bonuses of +7 on Sense Motive and +9 on Diplomacy and at 4th I am getting an additional +6 untyped bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate. That should be enough bonuses to carry me through the whole game.

I Still haven’t decided which to flaws or PrCs to take or Magic Items or ... :smallbiggrin: (Procrastinator that I am).


Cards over swords. Undead empathy. Wanderers diplomacy. Wanderers diplomacy and cards over swords are optimize this feat subjects.

Never heard of cards over swords/there is no undead in this campaign/considered wanderer's diplomacy but ...

Of course. I am shooting my BAB in the arse as well ... can't have everything. I think on 6th and 9th I will do a bit to improve my music, then use 12, 15, and 18 to up my spellcasting.

[noob]

Also take magic blooded and unseelee fey.

[stanprollyright]

Half-Elf Bard substituion level so you can use Diplomacy in combat.

I'd take the Marshal level for skill focus and add your Cha twice to cha skills, but skip the other dips (except Mindbender, obviously). You still want to keep your CL, BAB, and Music progression at a reasonable level so that you have a playable character who is more than a "how high does diplomacy go" theory horse. *glares at the rest of the playground* Leadership. Words of Creation. Give yourself something to do in combat.

I'd skip Nimbus of Light and Negotiator too. You'll get rapidly dimishing returns on all these flat bonuses, whereas feats like Wanderer's Diplomacy and Master Manipulator give you more things you can do with your skills. Goad is also a nice combat feat that fits a face character.

There are a number of ways to get Intimidate as a class skill, and from there you can get Imperious Command. As a face you don't just make people like you, you make them fear you as well.

EDIT: just saw that "secondary melee focus" thing. Snowflake Wardance!

[Thurbane]

Half-Elf Bard substituion level so you can use Diplomacy in combat.

I think OP is going with Half-Fey, using LA buyoff, rather than Half-elf.

Snowflake Wardance and Imperious Command are good suggestions.

If you take Imperious Command, try to take the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS) so you can affect multiple enemies at once. There's also an armor enhancement in Drow of the Underdark that drops the demoralize use of Intimidate from a standard to a move action, from memory.

@ghostshadow: just be aware with that many dips, your BAB is not going to be great. Once your UMD is high enough, I'd suggest scrolls or a wand of Divine Power for times when you want to melee.

On the plus side, all those dips will pump up your saves (especially Will).

Cards Over Swords (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060919a) is an oddball feat released to support the Three Dragon Ante card game. TBH, I can't see any DM actually letting that feat into a game. You can read some more about it here: Optimize this Feat #13: Cards over Swords from Three-Dragon Ante web supplement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501738)

[stanprollyright]

I think OP is going with Half-Fey, using LA buyoff, rather than Half-elf.

You can technically do both, since one is a race and the other is a template.

[Azoth]

Nah, go Magic Blooded (spark) Phrenic lesser Eladrin and then take the 2 level savage progression Half Fey with Magic in the Blood. Near 40 SLA/PLA usable 3/day each. You always have something to contribute and that is before your actual class abilities.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hey, if you're fey you can get seelie noble kelir as a freebie feat. Diplomacy checks to make people dislike whomever you want! Optimize this feat did this one too: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492298-Optimize-this-Feat-8-Seelie-Court-Noble-Kelir-(web)

Wanderers diplomacy is here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy

[jdizzlean]

1 level in Dragon-fire adept, (maybe warlock too, dunno what their invocations are) will get you beguiling influence at will, for +6 to bluff, intimidate, diplomacy

[Thurbane]

You can technically do both, since one is a race and the other is a template.

Oops, I was reading Half-fey, but my mind was thinking Feytouched (as in the race). :smallredface:


1 level in Dragon-fire adept, (maybe warlock too, dunno what their invocations are) will get you beguiling influence at will, for +6 to bluff, intimidate, diplomacy


Warlock 1 is optional, but can get you Beguiling Influence gets you a +6 untyped bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate [if you wanted to go Rogue instead of Bard, it also gives you a nice at will touch attack for sneak attacking; limited to 1/round, though, so not that great at higher levels].

They both have access to Beguiling Influence.

DFA may be a better option for this build, though: more skill points, boost to Fort save and a bonus feat.

[Vaz]

Neraph Ardent 7/Slime Lord 5/Marshal 3 - need City Slicker, Metamorphic Transfer feats, Motivate Intelligence and Wisdom

Take a rank in every Trained only Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence check.

Take the shape of a Visilight, drain Charisma ad infinitum, you now have NI Charisma adding to all your Charisma stats, your disguise is innate, not magical so cannot be detected as an illusion. You have all the knowledge in the world as you have Int+NI Cha Mod for your checks, so you know everything about what to, and maybe more importantly what not to say, and has immense wisdom to spot and listen, as well as hear what's going on.

You can Forge all the documents under the sun. Getting a check high enough to forge the Pact Primeval without having even seen it. You can use your Wisdom to pick up dreams through the Lucid Dreaming skill, allowing you to learn all the secrets.

Slime Lord isn't strictly necessary, but it has At Will Alter Self, and you don't have to rely on Metamorphosis; you only need ML 5, so Ardent 1/Marshal 3/Ardent +3 gets you there, but skill points will be much reduced.

Even when you've not got ridiculous preptime (each day, you get a net +6-9 Cha using humans as the baseline target), it's not exqctly badly broken, but anyone wanting to just get sheer numbers cannot beat this.

It's also a free plot point for the DM to work with as people follow the trail of comatose bodies which miraculously come back to conciousness after a day.

[Gildedragon]

Tibbit bard.
Get Handle Humanoid as a skill
Just tell people what to do (within a limited set of commands)

[lylsyly]

@Gildedragon: Tibbit Bard is cute (I am a cat person).

@Thurbane: DFA is 4 skill points versus 2 for warlock, in a build that really needs skills ...

@Vaz: Entirely to cheesy

@stanprollyright: Might get diminishing returns from those feats at first, but can always retrain them ... of course, I still haven't really gotten into all the available feats ... danged RL.

I appreciate all the input ... gonna take me a couple of days to put everything together .. then talk to the DM about it and modify it downwards ... even though I have never done the FACE thing it is really apparent that I could take over/maybe even break the game ... not really fair to the other players or the DM ya know!

[Thurbane]

DFA may be a better option for this build, though: more skill points, boost to Fort save and a bonus feat.


@Thurbane: DFA is 4 skill points versus 2 for warlock, in a build that really needs skills ...

...so, we're in agreement?

[Vaz]

@Vaz: Entirely to cheesy

Having played it as a 5th man, it's really not at all.

[lylsyly]

This is what I have done.

Race: Neutral Good Female Human with ½ Fey Template (+2 LA)
Martial Rogue 1/DFA 1/Marshal 1/Binder 1 (chose Martial Rogue for the added skill points primarily but also to get the archery feats, I mean, I can fly so why not)

STATS (after point buy and template mods):
STR 10
DEX 12(+1)
CON 12(+1)
INT 14(+2)
WIS 16(+3)
CHA 20(+5)

Feats:
Human: Nymph’s Kiss
1st: Born Under the Crescent Moon
Flaw (Noncombatant): Negotiator
Flaw (Vulnerable): Hard to Fool
Martial Rogue Bonus: Point Blank Shot
2nd: DFA Bonus: Dragontouched and Beguiling Influence Invocation
3rd: Wanderer’s Diplomacy
Marshal Bonus: Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Motivate Charisma Class Feature

Skill Checks at level 3:
Bluff: +24
Diplomacy: +29
Gather Information: +18
Intimidate: +24
Sense Motive: +14

Yeah, I know it’s very squishy, but I get to fulfill two roles, have fun, learn a new aspect of the game, so why not?

One thing I Did find odd … how most feats meant to support the Face role are really sad, with small flat bonuses.

I appreciate everyones input.

[daremetoidareyo]

You can get unseelie noble kelir as a free feat if your parent was a fey noble in your backstory: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a

[Calthropstu]

I have played sorcerers as party faces before to great effect. I made diplomacy a class skill, added some bluff, threw my cha into the stratosphere and it worked fairly well. Specialized in summoning and charming spells.

[lylsyly]

You can get unseelie noble kelir as a free feat if your parent was a fey noble in your backstory: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a

But at only a +1 bonus, it's worse than the feats I have (except Born Under the Crescent Moon, but I need that bump to sense motive and want the detect thoughts SA)


I have played sorcerers as party faces before to great effect. I made diplomacy a class skill, added some bluff, threw my cha into the stratosphere and it worked fairly well. Specialized in summoning and charming spells.

I actually thought about Sorcerer or Beguiler but I tend to shy away from full casters because I dislike keeping up with spell lists and such. Plus, the skill points aren't enough.

Besides the 5 Face skills I am going for Decipher Script, Listen, Spot, UMD, Knowledge (local), spending at least a couple of points on all the other Knowledges (after DFA dip) and what skill tricks will benefit.

[daremetoidareyo]

But at only a +1 bonus, it's worse than the feats I have (except Born Under the Crescent Moon, but I need that bump to sense motive and want the detect thoughts SA).

It is a bonus feat. It doesn't take the place of anything. Also it allows you to use a cut direct, the rules of which are covered by seelie Kellie noble: a bluff/diplomacy check to make other people change their attitude towards a target. And you get a +1.

[lylsyly]

It is a bonus feat. It doesn't take the place of anything. Also it allows you to use a cut direct, the rules of which are covered by seelie Kellie noble: a bluff/diplomacy check to make other people change their attitude towards a target. And you get a +1.

:smallredface: I missed that part. Still not going to use it though. I did the backstory when I took the 1/2 Fey template and I don't really have time nor inclination to rewrite it. It is a good catch though.