Dread Necromancer [PEACH]

[Llama513]

I designed a Dread necromancer awhile back and wanted felt like it was getting close to being ready, I would really like to get some feedback on it, so that I can fix what needs to be fixed to bring it into balance

The link to the homebrewery is here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1Cv9ESqe)

[Arkhios]

Might want to check that link, at least for me it doesn't work, while my own links to homebrewery do...

[Llama513]

Might want to check that link, at least for me it doesn't work, while my own links to homebrewery do...

I forgot to remove the http at the beginning it should work now

[Llama513]

Now that the link is working properly I would like to hear peoples thoughts on the class, if there is anything that feels really off, or if the wording is weird any feedback is appreciated

[The Cats]

This looks like a straight upgrade from wizards to me. With arcane recovery and the spellbook you get just as many spells known and slots as a wizard but more (and more powerful) class abilities. I suggest removing arcane recovery. Going with a bardic spells known progression might be better for balance too, but I can see how that messes with the flavour a bit. The spell slots is definitely the more pertinent issue that I can see in either case.

[Llama513]

This looks like a straight upgrade from wizards to me. With arcane recovery and the spellbook you get just as many spells known and slots as a wizard but more (and more powerful) class abilities. I suggest removing arcane recovery. Going with a bardic spells known progression might be better for balance too, but I can see how that messes with the flavour a bit. The spell slots is definitely the more pertinent issue that I can see in either case.

It's a full caster, the spell slots are the same for all full casters, but I see what you are saying about the arcane recovery, however I thought it was balanced by the limited number of spells you have to choose from

[The Cats]

It's not balanced.

Arcane recovery is a big part of a wizard's power. Druids have to give up turning into a big nasty beasties to get a similar ability.

A dread necromancer has as many spell slots per day as a wizard, potentially as many spells knows, undead minions using a toned-down version of the necromancer wizard's 14th level ability (that the dread necromancer gets 9 levels earlier), an at-will fear effect that doesn't require an action, a version of the barbarian's relentless rage, the ability to buff your undead minions, and effective immortality.

That on it's own is a base class more powerful than any wizard archetype.

Undead lord adds medium armour AC, a better ranger companion (it's undead and can wield weapons), a MUCH more powerful version of the Necromancer wizard's undead thralls ability, effective profficiency with shields, and an at-will damage+paralysis ability.

A limited spell list doesn't come close to balancing.

This requires a lot of work (read: nerfing) to be balanced. Most of the abilities need to be tuned down, it needs to lose arcane recovery, and probably full-caster progression too. This would make a great BBEG NPC but i would never allow it for a PC.

[Llama513]

It's not balanced.

Arcane recovery is a big part of a wizard's power. Druids have to give up turning into a big nasty beasties to get a similar ability.
I removed Arcane Recovery


A dread necromancer has as many spell slots per day as a wizard, potentially as many spells knows, undead minions using a toned-down version of the necromancer wizard's 14th level ability (that the dread necromancer gets 9 levels earlier)
Would it be better if I set a cap on the maximum number of hit die that could be affected, such as half your level rounded down


an at-will fear effect that doesn't require an action, a version of the barbarian's relentless rage
I made this into an action, my thought is to have it be usable a number of times equal to your intelligence modifier a day,


the ability to buff your undead minions
Should I remove the damage, or reduce t


effective immortality.
At level 20, but I can add restrictions, or a higher cost to it

That on it's own is a base class more powerful than any wizard archetype.


Undead lord adds medium armour AC
I can drop this

a better ranger companion (it's undead and can wield weapons)
This is the only feature the archetype gets, I can make it weaker, but I'm not sure exactly how beyond making it into a undead beast, but I feel like this being their only feature (all the other archetype features build on this one) and the fact that they have a lower hit die makes up for the stronger companion

a MUCH more powerful version of the Necromancer wizard's undead thralls ability
I can reduce this down to the wizards version, or just remove it

effective profficiency with shields, and an at-will damage+paralysis ability
at level 15 as a non melee class, I gave the ability to get in close and risk being steam rolled so that you can get in a powerful melee attack

[The Cats]

I see what you are saying, I removed the arcane recovery, however I want to keep them as full casters, I will take a look at the other things you have pointed out

You could consider, instead of making each subclass amazingly effective on it's own, making their abilities enhance the core dread necromancer abilities in different ways.

For instance: Make the core abilities about summoning and controlling undead

Undead lord gets a few powers that buff the minions from the back line (but not the AC boosts or companion). Unless you really want to keep the companion in which case I'd suggest making the core abilities less about minions so this subclass can feel more unique.

Plague blade gets a few powers that let them fight alongside the minion in the front lines (maybe just slightly weaker versions of what you already have).

Soul caster gets a few powers related to allowing you to summon incorporeal undead instead of just skeletons and zombies.

(These are all assuming you want the dread necromancer to be a minion class, which is what it looks like once you cut through all the extra extra stuff)

You could probably move around the levels they learn things and add a few more 'blank' levels too. Check out most of the other full-casters' ability progressions: On levels when they start being able to cast a higher level of spell they don't learn anything else since that's already a pretty cool power boost.

As for specific changes to specific abilities: Look at abilities other classes get at similar levels (once you've worked out the ability progression to your liking) and just try to balance each against those. If you do that, and don't try to pack in too many powers into the class, it'll balance itself.

TL;DR: Try giving the core abilities a clear focus, and the subclass abilities powers that boost or complement that core in unique ways. Move around the ability progression and remove some abilities to bring it closer in line with the progression of other full casters. Balance individual abilities against abilities granted to other classes at the same level (but try not to overload them with too many abilities).

[Llama513]

You could consider, instead of making each subclass amazingly effective on it's own, making their abilities enhance the core dread necromancer abilities in different ways.

For instance: Make the core abilities about summoning and controlling undead

Undead lord gets a few powers that buff the minions from the back line (but not the AC boosts or companion). Unless you really want to keep the companion in which case I'd suggest making the core abilities less about minions so this subclass can feel more unique.

Plague blade gets a few powers that let them fight alongside the minion in the front lines (maybe just slightly weaker versions of what you already have).

Soul caster gets a few powers related to allowing you to summon incorporeal undead instead of just skeletons and zombies.

(These are all assuming you want the dread necromancer to be a minion class, which is what it looks like once you cut through all the extra extra stuff)

You could probably move around the levels they learn things and add a few more 'blank' levels too. Check out most of the other full-casters' ability progressions: On levels when they start being able to cast a higher level of spell they don't learn anything else since that's already a pretty cool power boost.

As for specific changes to specific abilities: Look at abilities other classes get at similar levels (once you've worked out the ability progression to your liking) and just try to balance each against those. If you do that, and don't try to pack in too many powers into the class, it'll balance itself.

TL;DR: Try giving the core abilities a clear focus, and the subclass abilities powers that boost or complement that core in unique ways. Move around the ability progression and remove some abilities to bring it closer in line with the progression of other full casters. Balance individual abilities against abilities granted to other classes at the same level (but try not to overload them with too many abilities).
Thank you very much for pointing out what you are getting as the feel of the class, since it makes me aware that I goofed, since I don't want it to be minion based, beyond in the archetypes, I will take a look at fixing its ability progression, and adjust the levels where they get abilities, thanks

[The Cats]

There's nothing wrong with a lot of these powers on their own. I like the capstone a lot, actually. It's just that they get too many of them, and some seem too powerful for the levels they are learned.

Upon a second reading it looks like you do have a pretty clear focus for what you want each subclass to do. The core class abilities still feel kind of all over the place at times though and do step on the undead lord a bit.

[Llama513]

There's nothing wrong with a lot of these powers on their own. I like the capstone a lot, actually. It's just that they get too many of them, and some seem too powerful for the levels they are learned.

Upon a second reading it looks like you do have a pretty clear focus for what you want each subclass to do. The core class abilities still feel kind of all over the place at times though and do step on the undead lord a bit.

I did some tweaking of the base class, and switched up undead lord to work a little bit differently, take a look at it now and tell me what you think

I do have an idea for the second aspect of undead swarm, having it be a single undead with a cr equal to your proficiency modifier, with the benefits of undead thralls (just on it), but that might be a bit to powerful, the idea being to create an undead general to lead your swarm of undead, as you create your own, and take over others, or simply to have a swarm of creatures

[The Cats]

Now this looks almost like a playable class.

For the most part it looks like it just needs playtesting and probably number tweaking (damage, number of minions, etc.) on the abilities (which involves a long time flipping through pages, comparing numbers for similar spells and abilities. So that'll be fun for you.)

When balancing these abilities: Remember that you're a full caster class! Your strength is in your magic. If you give them powers that the player is always going to choose to use over their spells, then what's the point of giving them full caster progression? If you give them abilities that are super strong on their own PLUS full caster progression, why would anyone want to play any other full caster?

The core class is much simpler, which is good. The separate spell lists for each sub class is different, but that's not really a bad thing. Bumping the subclass feature progression so you get one on 2, 10 and 18 (removing one of the powers) and aura of terror and deathly constitution on their own on 6 and 14 would make me feel more comfortable that this isn't overshadowing other classes. Either that or severely weaken some of the powers.

Some specific notes:

If you decide to go with the ability progression I suggested above, aura of terror being constant looks good. Probably give them an option to suppress it so it's not always on though.

Undead Lord
-In undead swarm: At 6th level you learn to use this ability in a different way, you may instead create one undead with total health equal to the total of the swarm you could summon.
I kind of understand what you're getting at but the wording is very unclear. The ability seems difficult to pull off too (assuming I'm understanding it correctly). Making it something like "You can choose either your proficiency mod worth of X undead, or a single Y undead with the following bonuses" I think would be simpler and easier to understand.

-Control undead: OK I can definitely tell this is the minion subclass XD I would suggest adding a bit about "if you use this ability again while you control some undead, you lose control of them and gain control of your new targets" just because it specifies 24 hours but recharges on a long rest. Otherwise it could allow "I control this guy right before bedtime! Ok, now I control this other guy first thing in the morning! Double zombie buddies!" shenanigans.

-Dark healing: specify that minions can choose to allow you to hit them without having to make an attack roll. Maybe say "whenever you cast a spell that hits" just in case there are some bonus-action necrotic spells? I dunno if there are.

-How long does enhance undead last?

Plague Blade
I'd put the proficiencies in their own separate heading called Bonus proficiencies, just to better parallel other subclasses that grant them.

-Diseased blade: What happens when other people try to use your blood as a poison? I suggest specifying it's only usable by you.

-Aura of disease: Very cool. Anti-synergy with aura of terror though.

-Plague Touch: Typo in the title there. Later on you say benefactor when I think you mean recipient (the benefactor would be the person granting the benefit). The restrictions for healing that disease are... horrifying. I can see it being used in like a blackmail type scenario. Cool RP potential and good combat utility. But it would suck pretty hard if a player got infected with it. Maybe make the cure scale with the dread necromancer's level instead of requiring a straight up 8th level spell no matter what.

Soul Caster
-Shadow Familiar: This uses the shadow's stat block with no changes? That looks pretty on par with a pact of the chain lock. I'd be wary about giving players a way to deal at-will strength drain though. That has the potential to wreck some encounters. (But maybe you want to let them wreck some encounters hmmm)
There's a few typos in this section and you forgot to replace 'raven' with 'shadow in one spot.
How does the shadow act as your shadow? Does it attach and detach itself as an action? It not taking any damage doesn't make a ton of sense: Not being targeted yeah, but if you're at the center of a fireball wouldn't it get burned too?
Take a look at the find familiar spell for some help on the wording in this section and a few things you're missing (what happens to you when you look through the shadow's eyes, what actions are required for certain interactions with your shadow, etc.)

-Power of the soul: Cool ability. It says the shards float for the spell's duration but there's no mention of any duration. When you send two sahrds, can you target two creatures? This doesn't scale at all into higher levels. Just saying.

-Shadow form: This doesn't explain a lot of things like how your spells work, where your equipment goes, what happens when the shadow dies etc. See the wording in druid's wildshape, the shapechange and true polymorph spells, for an idea of the kind of things you need to cover with abilities like this.

-Soul expulsion: Why did you decide to make this use a spell slot? Just wondering.

I notice that all of the dread necromancer's abilities are combat based. I haven't gone through the spell lists yet, but I personally really enjoy playing classes that can contribute and do cool, unique things in an adventuring or roleplaying setting while also pulling their weight in combat.

Besides all that, I like it. You for sure will have to do a lot of number tweaking. I mean, I'm no expert on what damage, how minions, etc. are balanced at each level but I think you should go case-by-case through each of your abilities and do this. Just a good idea for any homebrew.

[Llama513]

Now this looks almost like a playable class.

For the most part it looks like it just needs playtesting and probably number tweaking (damage, number of minions, etc.) on the abilities (which involves a long time flipping through pages, comparing numbers for similar spells and abilities. So that'll be fun for you.)

When balancing these abilities: Remember that you're a full caster class! Your strength is in your magic. If you give them powers that the player is always going to choose to use over their spells, then what's the point of giving them full caster progression? If you give them abilities that are super strong on their own PLUS full caster progression, why would anyone want to play any other full caster?

The core class is much simpler, which is good. The separate spell lists for each sub class is different, but that's not really a bad thing. Bumping the subclass feature progression so you get one on 2, 10 and 18 (removing one of the powers) and aura of terror and deathly constitution on their own on 6 and 14 would make me feel more comfortable that this isn't overshadowing other classes. Either that or severely weaken some of the powers.

Some specific notes:

If you decide to go with the ability progression I suggested above, aura of terror being constant looks good. Probably give them an option to suppress it so it's not always on though.

Undead Lord
-In undead swarm: At 6th level you learn to use this ability in a different way, you may instead create one undead with total health equal to the total of the swarm you could summon.
I kind of understand what you're getting at but the wording is very unclear. The ability seems difficult to pull off too (assuming I'm understanding it correctly). Making it something like "You can choose either your proficiency mod worth of X undead, or a single Y undead with the following bonuses" I think would be simpler and easier to understand.

-Control undead: OK I can definitely tell this is the minion subclass XD I would suggest adding a bit about "if you use this ability again while you control some undead, you lose control of them and gain control of your new targets" just because it specifies 24 hours but recharges on a long rest. Otherwise it could allow "I control this guy right before bedtime! Ok, now I control this other guy first thing in the morning! Double zombie buddies!" shenanigans.

-Dark healing: specify that minions can choose to allow you to hit them without having to make an attack roll. Maybe say "whenever you cast a spell that hits" just in case there are some bonus-action necrotic spells? I dunno if there are.

-How long does enhance undead last?

Plague Blade
I'd put the proficiencies in their own separate heading called Bonus proficiencies, just to better parallel other subclasses that grant them.

-Diseased blade: What happens when other people try to use your blood as a poison? I suggest specifying it's only usable by you.

-Aura of disease: Very cool. Anti-synergy with aura of terror though.

-Plague Touch: Typo in the title there. Later on you say benefactor when I think you mean recipient (the benefactor would be the person granting the benefit). The restrictions for healing that disease are... horrifying. I can see it being used in like a blackmail type scenario. Cool RP potential and good combat utility. But it would suck pretty hard if a player got infected with it. Maybe make the cure scale with the dread necromancer's level instead of requiring a straight up 8th level spell no matter what.

Soul Caster
-Shadow Familiar: This uses the shadow's stat block with no changes? That looks pretty on par with a pact of the chain lock. I'd be wary about giving players a way to deal at-will strength drain though. That has the potential to wreck some encounters. (But maybe you want to let them wreck some encounters hmmm)
There's a few typos in this section and you forgot to replace 'raven' with 'shadow in one spot.
How does the shadow act as your shadow? Does it attach and detach itself as an action? It not taking any damage doesn't make a ton of sense: Not being targeted yeah, but if you're at the center of a fireball wouldn't it get burned too?
Take a look at the find familiar spell for some help on the wording in this section and a few things you're missing (what happens to you when you look through the shadow's eyes, what actions are required for certain interactions with your shadow, etc.)

-Power of the soul: Cool ability. It says the shards float for the spell's duration but there's no mention of any duration. When you send two sahrds, can you target two creatures? This doesn't scale at all into higher levels. Just saying.

-Shadow form: This doesn't explain a lot of things like how your spells work, where your equipment goes, what happens when the shadow dies etc. See the wording in druid's wildshape, the shapechange and true polymorph spells, for an idea of the kind of things you need to cover with abilities like this.

-Soul expulsion: Why did you decide to make this use a spell slot? Just wondering.

I notice that all of the dread necromancer's abilities are combat based. I haven't gone through the spell lists yet, but I personally really enjoy playing classes that can contribute and do cool, unique things in an adventuring or roleplaying setting while also pulling their weight in combat.

Besides all that, I like it. You for sure will have to do a lot of number tweaking. I mean, I'm no expert on what damage, how minions, etc. are balanced at each level but I think you should go case-by-case through each of your abilities and do this. Just a good idea for any homebrew.

Thank you very much for your help, I will go through and fix what you pointed out, and I will definitely take a look at the progression you suggested, decided to take your suggestion for dropping one of the archetypes abilities as they each had one that was not strictly necessary for them to work, and adjusted the levels, I will take a look at the Soul caster stuff closer when I get a bit more time, but take a look at what I have got thus far, I think it looks much nicer, and the archetypes encapsulate their play style better

[Llama513]

Soul Caster
-Shadow Familiar: This uses the shadow's stat block with no changes? That looks pretty on par with a pact of the chain lock. I'd be wary about giving players a way to deal at-will strength drain though. That has the potential to wreck some encounters. (But maybe you want to let them wreck some encounters hmmm)
There's a few typos in this section and you forgot to replace 'raven' with 'shadow in one spot.
How does the shadow act as your shadow? Does it attach and detach itself as an action? It not taking any damage doesn't make a ton of sense: Not being targeted yeah, but if you're at the center of a fireball wouldn't it get burned too?
Take a look at the find familiar spell for some help on the wording in this section and a few things you're missing (what happens to you when you look through the shadow's eyes, what actions are required for certain interactions with your shadow, etc.)

I took a look back through this and fixed some of the wording and clarified some details, as for the not taking damage, that is pulled from the sentinel raven of the raven queen warlock UA, which has the same feature


-Power of the soul: Cool ability. It says the shards float for the spell's duration but there's no mention of any duration. When you send two shards, can you target two creatures? This doesn't scale at all into higher levels. Just saying.

It says that you can target multiple points with the shards, and I added half your dread necromancer level to the affect


-Shadow form: This doesn't explain a lot of things like how your spells work, where your equipment goes, what happens when the shadow dies etc. See the wording in druid's wildshape, the shapechange and true polymorph spells, for an idea of the kind of things you need to cover with abilities like this.

I added a few details and made the bullets a little clearer hopefully it clears up your confusion



-Soul expulsion: Why did you decide to make this use a spell slot? Just wondering.

This ability is gone, but the reason I had it cost a spell slot was so that there was a trade off for using a really powerful ability, thus why it was a sixth level slot


And for non combat abilities, I am not sure if that is covered in the spells, I feel that it might be, but if you don't see that please let me know and I will come up with some exploration features, what those will be I'm not sure, but I will come up with something

[Sariel Vailo]

My brother likes this

[Llama513]

Glad to hear

[Llama513]

Made the following changes

Changed the weapon proficiency to line up with wizard better
Made the affect of aura of terror last for a number of rounds equal to half your dread necromancer levels rounded down
Deathly Constitution now grants immunity to poison damage, the poisoned condition, and resistance to necrotic damage, as well as the Undead Nature trait, but you appear to spells and features that detect undead as an undead creature
Fix the wording of Undead Swarm so that you can't stack up the undead that you create by adding a duration for the undead you create, 24 hours or until you use this feature again
Made plague blade a bonus action to activate
made it so you can activate/deactivate Aura of Disease as a bonus action
Added a specification that when your shadow kills a creature it doesn't create a new shadow
Tweaked the action economy for Power of the Soul, using one shadow shard now is a bonus action to use, using two shards is still an action
Adjusted the wording of Shadow Form to clarify confusion about the affect that it has

[Mortis_Elrod]

Feel like this class has dramatacly improved since i last saw it. Its great since i loved the Dread Necromancer in 3.5.

You probably didnt notice but Control Undead is 6th level when according to the table and the other two subclasses its supposed to be 10th level feature.


Im assuming your sig has the spell list for the class, I do have a question of why list separate spell list for subclasses. In the features you word it like its an entire different spell list, this is before im reading the spell list so i assume you just had them gain some bonus spells (but the undead lord doesn't get any weird). Ill edit this if its not appropriate after reading the spell list.

Edit: So yeah Undead Lord is missing the 'access to X spell list' in his 2nd level feature. Is access just the ability to choose the spells? This is a very odd approach (and is unprecidented in 5e) though Im doubting weather or not it breaks anything. Probably not, its just odd.

[Llama513]

I will fix that, and yeah its just that you can choose those spells, I felt that each archetype had a unique role and thus would tailor there spells accordingly, but since the class focuses on specific spells I felt splitting the lists by archetype fit better with the class as a whole,

As for the control undead table I had not noticed that, and am realising that it presents a problem in terms of the CR that you can control, and am not sure exactly how to fix it, I can either drop the CR 4 or lower category, place it at level 20, or simply have the table start at CR 1 or lower and reach CR 4 or lower at 19, I like the 3 level progression

Also sorry about the delay classes have started back up and so I've been busy

[UrielAwakened]

Have you thought about going a Diablo II necromancer route with the subclasses instead?

Maybe focus one on summons, one on curses, one on dark offensive magic?

[Llama513]

I had not, and while I like that idea, I really like the subclasses that I have come up with, and may design others in the future, at least for the curses, since I feel that I have both summons and offensive dark magic covered

[Llama513]

Upon looking at the spells that other casters have for summoning minions I have decided to put control of CR 1 or lower at level 10 for control undead with the CR increasing by 1 every three levels, I think this is balanced out by the availability of undead that powerful at those levels and that the undead get a save to resist

However if playtesting reveals this to be too strong I will adjust as necessary

[Sariel Vailo]

This class used the best kind of necromamy thread necromancy

[Llama513]

So yeah Undead Lord is missing the 'access to X spell list' in his 2nd level feature. Is access just the ability to choose the spells? This is a very odd approach (and is unprecidented in 5e) though Im doubting weather or not it breaks anything. Probably not, its just odd.

Fixed Undead Lord missing access to their spell list, do you think it would work better if I went with an expanded spell list and only went to 5th level, because that is the way I am thinking about the the spell lists as an extension of the expanded spell list feature of other classes archetypes

[Llama513]

Have you thought about going a Diablo II necromancer route with the subclasses instead?

Maybe focus one on summons, one on curses, one on dark offensive magic?

I will look at the Diablo II necromancer closer when I have time, but with what I have now what do you feel is missing to have something similar to its archetypes, so that I know what you are looking for so that I have a base for designing the archetypes when I get time

[Requilac]

At first glance it seems mostly pretty balanced, the only feature that seems overpowered is aura of terror.
I would reccomend putting some limitations on aura of terror so that you can only use it an X number of times before you have to rest to use it again. And the fact that once a target fails the save they don't get to remake it causes this to be devastating too. It lasts much too long for them to not be able to remake the saving throw. Aura of terror needs some toning down, or else it will suffer some major abuse.

My main problem with this class though is why would I pick dread necromancer over wizard? They have the same HP, proficiencies (aside from skills), spellcasting modifier, number of spell slots, number of prepared spells, ability score improvements and a relatively similar spell list.

The only advantages of playing a dread necromancer I see are a longer list of skill proficiencies, the ability to change spell selections after a short-rest, and some extremely situational abilities (among the dead, deathly constitution, lichdom).

Most of The archetypes are a little lacking too. The undead lord is kind of bland, it really only improves your capability of controlling and raising the dead, which is the classe's focus anyway so the archetype is kind of redundant. Plague blade is cool, but it relies on you entering melee with an opponent, which is bad considering that they only have a D6 health. Plague touch is the archetype's only useful feature and necrotic rot is cool flavor wise, but in truth, necrotic Rot is really only useful as a way to take care of re-occurring villains, which seems like a lousy way to influence the plot.

The only reason I would play this class is if I wanted to be a soul caster. Their shadow familiar is awesome and shadow form is an amazing addition. Soul caster seems like an interesting and solid choice that I would totally pick. I think it would probably make a better wizard archetype though.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to see if you can make it more different than the wizard? Otherwise, I would never play this class unless I was a soul caster.

[Llama513]

At first glance it seems mostly pretty balanced, the only feature that seems overpowered is aura of terror.
I would reccomend putting some limitations on aura of terror so that you can only use it an X number of times before you have to rest to use it again. And the fact that once a target fails the save they don't get to remake it causes this to be devastating too. It lasts much too long for them to not be able to remake the saving throw. Aura of terror needs some toning down, or else it will suffer some major abuse.
I made it so that they get a save when you are not in their line of sight



My main problem with this class though is why would I pick dread necromancer over wizard? They have the same HP, proficiencies (aside from skills), spellcasting modifier, number of spell slots, number of prepared spells, ability score improvements and a relatively similar spell list.

The only advantages of playing a dread necromancer I see are a longer list of skill proficiencies, the ability to change spell selections after a short-rest, and some extremely situational abilities (among the dead, deathly constitution, lichdom).
This is meant to feel a lot like a wizard as it is devised for those who didn't like the necromancy wizard arcane tradition, will look at raising the hit dice if enough people feel it is necessary, but I am wary of doing so. As for the abililities from the base class being very situational and utility that was done on purpose as much of the full casters power comes from their spells and archetype features, as a result I made the base class simply representative of moving towards becoming an lich and the transitions ones body would undergo



Most of The archetypes are a little lacking too. The undead lord is kind of bland, it really only improves your capability of controlling and raising the dead, which is the classe's focus anyway so the archetype is kind of redundant.
As I stated above the base class is not built around controlling undead its abilities are about becoming undead, I would like to know which abilities you feel point towards controlling undead so that I can tweak or remove them as that is not the base classes goal, and the control and empowerment of undead is the focus of the undead lord



Plague blade is cool, but it relies on you entering melee with an opponent, which is bad considering that they only have a D6 health. Plague touch is the archetype's only useful feature and necrotic rot is cool flavor wise, but in truth, necrotic Rot is really only useful as a way to take care of re-occurring villains, which seems like a lousy way to influence the plot.
I get what you are saying about not wanting to go into melee with a d6 health, which would be fixed with raising the hit dice, or giving them something to boost their AC which I don't really have a problem with doing, what I don't understand is your assertion that the only useful ability is plague touch, when their other abilities are designed to allow them to better work in melee combat with access to armor and martial weapons, diseased blade helps your melee attacks be more effective, I can see either removing having to damage yourself to activate its affect or adding additional damage dealt by the attack under its affect, and Aura of Disease gives you passive damage while in melee range so I don't see how those are useless to a melee centric archetype



The only reason I would play this class is if I wanted to be a soul caster. Their shadow familiar is awesome and shadow form is an amazing addition. Soul caster seems like an interesting and solid choice that I would totally pick. I think it would probably make a better wizard archetype though.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to see if you can make it more different than the wizard? Otherwise, I would never play this class unless I was a soul caster.
I am glad that you like the Soul caster, however as the purpose of this class is to fill the necromancer role better then the wizard necromancy school does the only reason I would turn this into a wizard archetype would be to replace the necromancy school, but then it would be neglecting the other three branches of necromancy, thus the purpose of this class and its archetypes, you have the undead lord, the summoner of undead minions, the Plague blade, the creater of diseases and spreader of plagues, and the soul caster, the user of powerful dark magic to obliterate their foes

[Arkhios]

I will look at the Diablo II necromancer closer when I have time, but with what I have now what do you feel is missing to have something similar to its archetypes, so that I know what you are looking for so that I have a base for designing the archetypes when I get time

One thing that I remember as very cool about diablo 2 (and now 3) necromancer was that their armor would always sport skulls, bones, etc.

If you're not set on the Dread Necromancer's armor proficiencies, I think giving them similar armor proficiency (with same restrictions) as druids have would be really cool. Hide armor especially made from bones and assorted pieces of leather would paint quite sinister and dreadful image.

[Llama513]

One thing that I remember as very cool about diablo 2 (and now 3) necromancer was that their armor would always sport skulls, bones, etc.

If you're not set on the Dread Necromancer's armor proficiencies, I think giving them similar armor proficiency (with same restrictions) as druids have would be really cool. Hide armor especially made from bones and assorted pieces of leather would paint quite sinister and dreadful image.

Just checking that I understand your suggestion, its to give them light armor but no metal armors correct, or was it the full druid spread, and with that change what should I do for the plague blade

[Requilac]

I will respond to you later tonight, just give me some time @Llama.

[Llama513]

I will respond to you later tonight, just give me some time @Llama.

Gotcha, take your time

[Arkhios]

Just checking that I understand your suggestion, its to give them light armor but no metal armors correct, or was it the full druid spread, and with that change what should I do for the plague blade

Full druid spread, as hide armor is medium.

As of the potential subclasses based on D2:
"Summoner" did exactly that, animated first skeletal warriors, then skeletal mages and eventually entire corpses of the dead creatures, essentially as zombies. Multiple at once.
Plus one golem at a time made of clay -> iron(?) -> fire -> blood and bones (iirc)

"Curser" focused on bestowing debilitating effects with ranged AoE curses.

"Poisoner" focused on melee with ritual daggers, empowering his weapon attacks with poison, but also was able to spread poison damage via AoE spells. Plague Blade would fit snugly into sub-class like this.

Also, to answer your pre-edit question, I think you could increase their hit die by one step.

[Llama513]

Full druid spread, as hide armor is medium.

As of the potential subclasses based on D2:
"Summoner" did exactly that, animated first skeletal warriors, then skeletal mages and eventually entire corpses of the dead creatures, essentially as zombies. Multiple at once.
Plus one golem at a time made of clay -> iron(?) -> fire -> blood and bones (iirc)

"Curser" focused on bestowing debilitating effects with ranged AoE curses.

"Poisoner" focused on melee with ritual daggers, empowering his weapon attacks with poison, but also was able to spread poison damage via AoE spells. Plague Blade would fit snugly into sub-class like this.

Cool, I think I've got summoner and Poisoner, I don't specifically have a Curser, but I think that the Soul caster fits into a similar role but I can come up with a curser if people really want it, I'll just give plague blade martial weapons then since the class is getting armor, I'm going to up the health since no class with medium has lower then a d8

will definitely need to retool plague blade to fit better, my thought is to keep the damage cost for the poisoned condition of diseased blade, and then I am thinking about giving them something like the paladin smite but instead of radiant damage it is poison damage, the other thought is to have it add their INT as poison damage since they only get one attack.

The other thought is to have the disease blade feature deal damage to those affected by the poisoned condition from the feature, having it either just their INT mod at the end of their turn or something like that

For causing it to spread it could be an action to cause the creature that they have poisoned to have boils grow one them and spurt blood out in a 5 foot radius forcing creatures in the area to make a constitution saving throw or be poisoned as well, tie that into aura of disease and then leave plague touch as is.

So I looked at the diablo poisoner and I think that these abilities capture nicely the feel of the poisoner, I'll look at the curser later, need to tweak the plague blade

[Llama513]

So I'm looking at the Curser abilities and it looks like the best way to implement it would be through the hex spell, making it were casting hex on a target is the opening that allows you to lay stronger curses on them through the hex and cause them to spread out from that target, I think I'm going to go with the D3 necromancer as I think those curses are easier to convert over.

[demonslayerelf]

I looked at the class. Here's feedback.
Preface: I am not a developer, and I mostly deal in tinkering with monsters, not classes. I am not a fan of the 5e attitude of players always(or almost always) winning, so take this with a grain of salt.
I will also ignore the... Let's say strange formatting and spelling issues. It's clear enough to tell what's going on, so I'll leave that to here.

1d8 health for something clearly intended as being somewhat wizardly? Oh boy, this is gonna be good.
Medium armor, but only a bone variety? Well, that leaves Hide and nothing else. Try wearing a ribcage for protection, it doesn't work.

At level 2, a permanently active Sanctuary spell against undead. The caveat that they're immune after making the save isn't much help, especially at such a low level. Wisdom also tends to be a bad save for undead, so it just gets better and better.

An automatic fear aura at 6th level? Hrm... Can't think of any other classes with this, but the Fear spell is a 3rd level spell, only accessible from 3rd level, takes an action, and is only slightly more powerful, since it doesn't specify undead, oozes, and constructs with low wisdom being immune... This is too powerful, but probably not by too much. It's passable, but I'd curtail it a bit, maybe make it a higher level thing.

Immunity to poison and Undead Constitution... Level 14 should be powerful enough for that, since the DN probably doesn't have too great of constitution.(Being that Int and Wis seem to be their big traits.) Monks get poison immunity at 10, so this is probably pretty fine.

Lichdom at 20... You know, a few people seem to gripe at that, but I don't really see the problem. Yeah you become immortal, but a smart Wizard can just have a clone ready anyway. Otherwise, do liches actually have anything cool?
Don't get legendary actions(If that were the intention, I wouldn't have even bothered to review this), Paralyzing Touch is okay, I guess... 3d6 cold is less than any cantrip at that level, and it's DC is derived from the Lich's Dex, Con, or Cha, which aren't really crucial to the DN. Con, maybe, but even that probably won't be too high.
The immortality bit is more of a ribbon, really, like the druids living for thousands of years. Mystics have something similar, but less exploitable. I might say that the DN makes a Charisma saving throw to be able to revive? Why charisma, it's because they're forcing their spirit back to the Phylactery. Figure it's better than the others, but I dunno.

Undead Swarm's a bit much. Just conjuring 2 skeletons out of thin air at second level is a bit much. Having a 4d8+2 health skeleton servant at no cost forever each day is a bit much. It narrows out at higher levels, though; 6 skeletons means very little against ANY dragon, and a 12d8+20 skeleton might be an okay thing to have against minor things, but they're doing 1d6+10-ish damage once each turn, and are still very fragile, comparatively speaking. Find a way to lower it's effectiveness at lower levels, and you're probably fine. It's better than the necromancer wizard's ability, but not by a ton.

Control Undead is a straight rip at the same level. It's fine.

I'd hesitate to say their capstone is balanced, but I don't think it's wildly unbalancing. You can, at the beginning of each day, conjuring 6 skeletons, then giving them and any other undead that you've conjured, 18 temp. hit points, and 2d8 extra damage on each attack. Again, I don't think it's too bad... Maybe put a limit on how many undead it could effect.

Because in a hypothetical scenario, you have 2 mummies, 2 wights, 14 ghouls, and 60 zombies and skeletons(Or just 132 zombies and skeletons), who all receive this buff for the entire day. That's taking every single spell of 3 and above, but why would you need anything more when you have a literal small army of undead, any of which could easily kill several smallfolk and/or a few soldiers on their own with their extra health and damage.

Overall, it's probably a bit much, but not too much.

This entire subclass is basically worthless.

It picks up, at most, 50 additional poison against a few different targets, and that's assuming they just can't make a con saving throw. Of course, that assumed that you- With no other martial inclinations or bonuses- can actually hit them. And of course, they actually take poison damage, which about 1/3 or so monsters don't.

The aura might actually be less useful though. It's 2d4 poison damage, and a guarantee that no allies will ever be near you, since you can't control who takes the damage.

Then the resistance to disease is worthless. I genuinely can't think of another time in which the effect of a subclass was totally dwarfed by an effect from the core class mere levels later. Not only that, but the immunity to nonmagical disease is the ribbon to end all ribbons. Yes, I know, the PC could contract something. But a 2nd level spell is all it takes to fix, unless it's magical, in which case you're not immune anyway. Your disgusting boil-popping ability is also pretty ****ty; They get the same punishment as something you hit, but you have to hit something beforehand, and they need to fail the save, then the NEW creatures need to fail the save, AND be very close to the first creature, who would have to keep failing saving throws for this to work. And then you can only do it once per fight, if that.

It's capstone should make up for it though, right? Well, no. 12d10 is a lot of damage, but again; Poison sucks. A second level spell gives advantage against your poison, and even on a failure, they'll suffer 6d10 poison damage. The effect itself also isn't very useful in a fight. Yeah, you really effed up that dragon; He'll maybe die in a few months. In addition, the Warlock gets something similar at 14th level with fiend pact. 10d10 psychic damage, something only 11 creatures even resist, and no saving throw attached; It just happens. They get a better ability 4 levels earlier, with the only caveat being "You can't use it against a fiend."

Overall, this subclass is a joke. It's an okay concept, but it's utterly worthless, and with the Int/Con/Wis focus of the core class, this is adding either Str or Dex, and you're reaching some MAD territory.

Basically, you get the ChainPact!Warlock's familliar, only it's a shadow. I mean, sure, but there's no external way to improve it(Such as invocations), and it doesn't get at all better over time. So... Sure, this is fine. Not good, but also not bad.

I think this might be the one class feature I don't think needs some changing around. It isn't incredibly powerful, it's a good concept, and it has clear limits. It's almost a more versatile Melf's Minute Meteors, but limited by your power to invoke death. I even have a little idea for it; You can sacrifice friendly undead to get more of the shards. A small thing, but I think kinda cool.

The capstone ability is essentially worthless. You give up a familliar to get a 6 Strength, 14 Dex, 13 Con, suffer a sunlight weakness, a 2d6+2 melee attack, and sometimes gaining expertise in stealth. Familliars aren't particularly useful in a fight to begin with, but this ability can effectively LOWER your abilities in combat, especially if you're exposed to- Gods forbid- light. Not to mention the fact that this is even more worthless once becoming a lich; You get a worse touch attack, and a weakness. Sure hope that bonus to stealth and squeezing is worth it.

Overall Opinion/TL;DR
It's too powerful as a whole, and a lot of abilities are either jokes or otherwise worthless. It's gonna take quite a bit of overhauling to make viable.
Points for having sporadic coolness, though, and for being a good concept.

[Llama513]

I looked at the class. Here's feedback.
Preface: I am not a developer, and I mostly deal in tinkering with monsters, not classes. I am not a fan of the 5e attitude of players always(or almost always) winning, so take this with a grain of salt.
I will also ignore the... Let's say strange formatting and spelling issues. It's clear enough to tell what's going on, so I'll leave that to here.

1d8 health for something clearly intended as being somewhat wizardly? Oh boy, this is gonna be good.
Medium armor, but only a bone variety? Well, that leaves Hide and nothing else. Try wearing a ribcage for protection, it doesn't work.

At level 2, a permanently active Sanctuary spell against undead. The caveat that they're immune after making the save isn't much help, especially at such a low level. Wisdom also tends to be a bad save for undead, so it just gets better and better.

An automatic fear aura at 6th level? Hrm... Can't think of any other classes with this, but the Fear spell is a 3rd level spell, only accessible from 3rd level, takes an action, and is only slightly more powerful, since it doesn't specify undead, oozes, and constructs with low wisdom being immune... This is too powerful, but probably not by too much. It's passable, but I'd curtail it a bit, maybe make it a higher level thing.

Immunity to poison and Undead Constitution... Level 14 should be powerful enough for that, since the DN probably doesn't have too great of constitution.(Being that Int and Wis seem to be their big traits.) Monks get poison immunity at 10, so this is probably pretty fine.

Lichdom at 20... You know, a few people seem to gripe at that, but I don't really see the problem. Yeah you become immortal, but a smart Wizard can just have a clone ready anyway. Otherwise, do liches actually have anything cool?
Don't get legendary actions(If that were the intention, I wouldn't have even bothered to review this), Paralyzing Touch is okay, I guess... 3d6 cold is less than any cantrip at that level, and it's DC is derived from the Lich's Dex, Con, or Cha, which aren't really crucial to the DN. Con, maybe, but even that probably won't be too high.
The immortality bit is more of a ribbon, really, like the druids living for thousands of years. Mystics have something similar, but less exploitable. I might say that the DN makes a Charisma saving throw to be able to revive? Why charisma, it's because they're forcing their spirit back to the Phylactery. Figure it's better than the others, but I dunno.

Starting off thank you for being honest and giving examples to look at for comparison of power level.

The bone thing is meant more as a flavor change of the druid restriction.

Among the Dead is pulled straight from the Undying Way Warlock in the Sword Coast Guide, and they get it at 1st level

Aura Terror is an ability that I have been trying to figure out how to work, my thought is to have it be usable once per short rest or something like that, since I don't really want to move it from the level it is so as to line up better with full caster progression

I will definitely consider the CHA save to resurrect




Undead Swarm's a bit much. Just conjuring 2 skeletons out of thin air at second level is a bit much. Having a 4d8+2 health skeleton servant at no cost forever each day is a bit much. It narrows out at higher levels, though; 6 skeletons means very little against ANY dragon, and a 12d8+20 skeleton might be an okay thing to have against minor things, but they're doing 1d6+10-ish damage once each turn, and are still very fragile, comparatively speaking. Find a way to lower it's effectiveness at lower levels, and you're probably fine. It's better than the necromancer wizard's ability, but not by a ton.

Control Undead is a straight rip at the same level. It's fine.

I'd hesitate to say their capstone is balanced, but I don't think it's wildly unbalancing. You can, at the beginning of each day, conjuring 6 skeletons, then giving them and any other undead that you've conjured, 18 temp. hit points, and 2d8 extra damage on each attack. Again, I don't think it's too bad... Maybe put a limit on how many undead it could effect.

Because in a hypothetical scenario, you have 2 mummies, 2 wights, 14 ghouls, and 60 zombies and skeletons(Or just 132 zombies and skeletons), who all receive this buff for the entire day. That's taking every single spell of 3 and above, but why would you need anything more when you have a literal small army of undead, any of which could easily kill several smallfolk and/or a few soldiers on their own with their extra health and damage.

Overall, it's probably a bit much, but not too much.

Would it work better to have it be just one skeleton normal until 4th level for undead swarm

As for the capstone its hard to tell exactly the balance until play testing so I get what you are saying, but until I get to see it in action I'm not sure whether to mess with it or what needs to be messed with



This entire subclass is basically worthless.

It picks up, at most, 50 additional poison against a few different targets, and that's assuming they just can't make a con saving throw. Of course, that assumed that you- With no other martial inclinations or bonuses- can actually hit them. And of course, they actually take poison damage, which about 1/3 or so monsters don't.

The aura might actually be less useful though. It's 2d4 poison damage, and a guarantee that no allies will ever be near you, since you can't control who takes the damage.

Then the resistance to disease is worthless. I genuinely can't think of another time in which the effect of a subclass was totally dwarfed by an effect from the core class mere levels later. Not only that, but the immunity to nonmagical disease is the ribbon to end all ribbons. Yes, I know, the PC could contract something. But a 2nd level spell is all it takes to fix, unless it's magical, in which case you're not immune anyway. Your disgusting boil-popping ability is also pretty ****ty; They get the same punishment as something you hit, but you have to hit something beforehand, and they need to fail the save, then the NEW creatures need to fail the save, AND be very close to the first creature, who would have to keep failing saving throws for this to work. And then you can only do it once per fight, if that.

It's capstone should make up for it though, right? Well, no. 12d10 is a lot of damage, but again; Poison sucks. A second level spell gives advantage against your poison, and even on a failure, they'll suffer 6d10 poison damage. The effect itself also isn't very useful in a fight. Yeah, you really effed up that dragon; He'll maybe die in a few months. In addition, the Warlock gets something similar at 14th level with fiend pact. 10d10 psychic damage, something only 11 creatures even resist, and no saving throw attached; It just happens. They get a better ability 4 levels earlier, with the only caveat being "You can't use it against a fiend."

Overall, this subclass is a joke. It's an okay concept, but it's utterly worthless, and with the Int/Con/Wis focus of the core class, this is adding either Str or Dex, and you're reaching some MAD territory.

Would it be too powerful if I made the damage necrotic for the class abilities

For Diseased blade I have an idea for what to do, I can have them take the damage to release blood which they magically form into a blade which they use their spell casting ability modifier for attack and damage rolls, then have it be that they spend a spell slot to infect a creature they hit where the creature takes their int mod times the level of the spell each turn for the next minute no save

For the aura I have no problem allowing them to only affect allies

Then make the boil simply spread the affect no save, I could also change it from being boils to simply spears of blood that shoot out, I went with boils because of flavor and thought of the affect of plagues like the Black Plague

I realize the immunity to disease isn't that strong but it makes too much since flavor wise not to give them it

For the Capstone should I just get rid of the save and just have it work



Basically, you get the ChainPact!Warlock's familliar, only it's a shadow. I mean, sure, but there's no external way to improve it(Such as invocations), and it doesn't get at all better over time. So... Sure, this is fine. Not good, but also not bad.

I think this might be the one class feature I don't think needs some changing around. It isn't incredibly powerful, it's a good concept, and it has clear limits. It's almost a more versatile Melf's Minute Meteors, but limited by your power to invoke death. I even have a little idea for it; You can sacrifice friendly undead to get more of the shards. A small thing, but I think kinda cool.

The capstone ability is essentially worthless. You give up a familliar to get a 6 Strength, 14 Dex, 13 Con, suffer a sunlight weakness, a 2d6+2 melee attack, and sometimes gaining expertise in stealth. Familliars aren't particularly useful in a fight to begin with, but this ability can effectively LOWER your abilities in combat, especially if you're exposed to- Gods forbid- light. Not to mention the fact that this is even more worthless once becoming a lich; You get a worse touch attack, and a weakness. Sure hope that bonus to stealth and squeezing is worth it.

Overall Opinion/TL;DR
It's too powerful as a whole, and a lot of abilities are either jokes or otherwise worthless. It's gonna take quite a bit of overhauling to make viable.
Points for having sporadic coolness, though, and for being a good concept.

Would just giving them the beneficial abilities be too strong for the capstone

[Requilac]

Okay, forgive me ahead of time for my formatting, I am new to this forum and am unfamiliar with how to break up the quotes like you did so just bare with me here.


I made it so that they get a save when you are not in their line of sight

So they basically get a save whenever they can't see you? How frequently are you leaving an opponent's line of sight during combat, because to me that is a pretty rare occurence. What is your definition of line of sight, I am thinking that this means that they get a save if you are behind the target. Unless you had a different idea of what is in a persons line of sight, than this is not a good enough fix.

This is meant to feel a lot like a wizard as it is devised for those who didn't like the necromancy wizard arcane tradition, will look at raising the hit dice if enough people feel it is necessary, but I am wary of doing so. As for the abililities from the base class being very situational and utility that was done on purpose as much of the full casters power comes from their spells and archetype features, as a result I made the base class simply representative of moving towards becoming an lich and the transitions ones body would undergo

So this is more of an alternative choice to a necromancy wizard than it is a distinct class? Fair enough, I don't believe I realized that at first glance though. Oh, so those bass class features mostly exist for flavor than anything else? I suppose that makes sense in a kind of way, the archetype features seem strong enough to make up for it. Okay then, that is fair, sorry for the overcriticism.

As I stated above the base class is not built around controlling undead its abilities are about becoming undead, I would like to know which abilities you feel point towards controlling undead so that I can tweak or remove them as that is not the base classes goal, and the control and empowerment of undead is the focus of the undead lord

I don't quite think it is the features that make the class based around controlling the undead, I think it is the spell list. You basically have every necromancy spell on their, which is to be expected of course considering that this is a necromancer class, and many of those spells focus on controlling and raising undead minions. That is what a necromancer does after all, control and raise the undead, so it just seems redundant that you have a class that focuses on controlling the dead which has an archetype that focuses on controlling the dead. It is like making a fighter archetype that is good at attacking with weapons. They should already be skilled at those categories regardless of their archetype because of the class they chose.

I get what you are saying about not wanting to go into melee with a d6 health, which would be fixed with raising the hit dice, or giving them something to boost their AC which I don't really have a problem with doing, what I don't understand is your assertion that the only useful ability is plague touch, when their other abilities are designed to allow them to better work in melee combat with access to armor and martial weapons, diseased blade helps your melee attacks be more effective, I can see either removing having to damage yourself to activate its affect or adding additional damage dealt by the attack under its affect, and Aura of Disease gives you passive damage while in melee range so I don't see how those are useless to a melee centric archetype

I was calling them useless because I would not want to get close enough to too an enemy to use them. They are extremely useful features, but they are also not worth the risk to use. Although, it appears that you are considering giving plague blades a D8 health, medium armor proficiency and martial weapons though so that should patch up the problem nicely. I still would not wish to engage in melee the entire time, but it will make it a prudent risk to use diseased blade and aura of disease.

I am glad that you like the Soul caster, however as the purpose of this class is to fill the necromancer role better then the wizard necromancy school does the only reason I would turn this into a wizard archetype would be to replace the necromancy school, but then it would be neglecting the other three branches of necromancy, thus the purpose of this class and its archetypes, you have the undead lord, the summoner of undead minions, the Plague blade, the creater of diseases and spreader of plagues, and the soul caster, the user of powerful dark magic to obliterate their foes

So you seem to be pretty attached to the archetypes and that is why you made this a class? I did not know how serious you were about sticking to the archetypes so I thought that it may be much simply to create a wizard archetype with the base class features and possibly a few extra spells. But it seems like the archetypes are just as important to you as the the base class so I understand your case. Do not pay to much attention to that comment there.


I hope my commentary helps and that I have not offended you in any way. I really like the idea of this class and simply wish to see it turn out to be something great. No hard feelings and I wish you the best of luck.

[Llama513]

No hard feelings its all good, I appreciate your advice and help, I get what you mean about the spell list, with that in mind I'm going to adjust the spell list around so that there isn't as much redundancy.

For splitting things up, the way you do it is you copy the quote command that you get at the top of the page when you click reply with quote and paste it at the front of the above the text and the [/quote] command that is at the end of the quoted text at the end

[Requilac]

I have to say Llama, I think you adressed most of my issues with the class and you seem like you are almost ready to play-test (if you are not there yet). I only have a couple of other things that seem odd to me.

1) the among the dead base class features states that “You also gain advantage on saving throws against fear affects caused by undead“. What exactly are fear effects? To me, this seems to say that you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened by undead but I am not sure. Could you specify?
2) why exactly does the plague blade gain proficiency in martial weapons and a small selection of simple weapons, but not all simple weapons? It seems weird that this would be the only class I have ever seen that gains proficiency in martial weapons but not in simple weapons. It does not matter too much, but just pointing that out
3) what actions can the shadow familiar take? Can it take all the actions of a player or is it restricted in someway? It would help to specify because to me it seems like it can take any action it wishes.
4) I still think aura of fear is overpowered, but I do not think I will ever stop complaining about aura of fear so do not put too much emphasis on that.
5) Be careful with the undead lord’s undead swarm and enhance undead features. Those bonuses seem way too high. Perhaps they will in practice turn out to be balanced but I would watch out for those features while play testing.

[demonslayerelf]

The bone thing is meant more as a flavor change of the druid restriction.
I mean, I guess, but it doesn't work as well here. Mostly because a druid trying to be a martial has their wild shape, while a DN trying to be a martial(Even with their "martial" subclass) doesn't have anything like that. I'll revisit this in a moment, don't respond to this part.


Among the Dead is pulled straight from the Undying Way Warlock in the Sword Coast Guide, and they get it at 1st level
What were you thinking, Wizards?


Aura Terror is an ability that I have been trying to figure out how to work, my thought is to have it be usable once per short rest or something like that, since I don't really want to move it from the level it is so as to line up better with full caster progression

A thought I have; At 6th level, it gives everything around you disadvantage against fear, but then turns into a better aura at 6, based on your subclass. Dunno specifics, and luckily, it's not my job.



Would it work better to have it be just one skeleton normal until 4th level for undead swarm

Probably.



Would it be too powerful if I made the damage necrotic for the class abilities
On the contrary, it still wouldn't be that great. It's still repeated saving throws which would normally be as little as 15-ish damage, 2d4 aura that hurts your allies, etc.


For Diseased blade I have an idea for what to do, I can have them take the damage to release blood which they magically form into a blade which they use their spell casting ability modifier for attack and damage rolls, then have it be that they spend a spell slot to infect a creature they hit where the creature takes their int mod times the level of the spell each turn for the next minute no save
That's a bit much. That's as much as 45 damage per turn for 10 rounds, 450 damage, enough to kill dragons.
It shouldn't be a huge amount of damage, but more than 20(With luck on your side.) You only get the one attack each turn, so it should be a bit of damage, just not a ton.


Then make the boil simply spread the affect no save, I could also change it from being boils to simply spears of blood that shoot out, I went with boils because of flavor and thought of the affect of plagues like the Black Plague

I realize the immunity to disease isn't that strong but it makes too much since flavor wise not to give them it
Flavour's fine. And the no save thing, maybe... That's 50 damage to upto 8 or so people.


For the Capstone should I just get rid of the save and just have it work
I mean, it won't be too much better in the moment. A slightly better version of the Fiendpact!Warlock's ability, at best. On a long-term, though, it would be the best market for flyby murder. Cast Haste on yourself, have an ally cast Fly, fly by a dragon, infect it, then wait a week or three. Insta-quest finish.



Would just giving them the beneficial abilities be too strong for the capstone
If there were any beneficial abilities, maybe.


And there's the new subclass;
The first ability; Hex once/short rest, and I dunno if it's a typo or what, but it doesn't improve. So, maybe no.

Decripify faces the same problems i've said about the Plagueblade. Con saves or it's worthless. Half-damage with strength weapons also isn't huge, maybe 1/3rd of damage is halved. And it's only things within 15 feet of your hexed victim.

Leech. Same problem as Decripify, only it does very minimal damage. On an absolute scale, maybe you heal 40 damage with enough targets.

Fraility; It's a burst, not something that lasts 1 minute. But it lasts a minute for some reason. It could kill a small horde, but so could a fireball or two. So, also not great. Especially as a capstone.

All in all- It sucks. It's abilities are overall weak and more or less useless in a lot of cases. It also centers around Hex, a 1st level spell that you can cast once. It has nothing to do with Bestow Curse, even as the Cursebringer, and has no unique curses.

[Llama513]

Requiliac and Demonslayer elf I will be responding properly to you later today, sorry about the delay, been busy with school work haven't had much time

[Arte]

It looks cool, I always hate that homebrewery never displays properly on fire fox but w/e.

Most things seem to be replicating a wizard full caster progression.

I am always wary of things that by the rules should make you an npc such as Lichdom or being a Vampire but okay.

Okay with that said it seems okay for the most part, I’m looking at it more for if things make literal sense than for balance since I don’t want to come across as offending your work:

“Its hit points are equal to 2*proficiency modifier d8 + your dread necromancer level”

So like that part, I am not sure what it is saying exactly. I do not know where to begin really.

There are also a few typographical errors and punctuation issues that pop up randomly all over the module.

Anyway best of luck.

[Llama513]

I have to say Llama, I think you adressed most of my issues with the class and you seem like you are almost ready to play-test (if you are not there yet). I only have a couple of other things that seem odd to me.

1) the among the dead base class features states that “You also gain advantage on saving throws against fear affects caused by undead“. What exactly are fear effects? To me, this seems to say that you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened by undead but I am not sure. Could you specify?

Fear effects are exactly what you think they are, and that wording is how it is stated in the official text that ability comes from.


2) why exactly does the plague blade gain proficiency in martial weapons and a small selection of simple weapons, but not all simple weapons? It seems weird that this would be the only class I have ever seen that gains proficiency in martial weapons but not in simple weapons. It does not matter too much, but just pointing that out
Because I hadn't noticed and will fix that


3) what actions can the shadow familiar take? Can it take all the actions of a player or is it restricted in someway? It would help to specify because to me it seems like it can take any action it wishes.
It is supposed to be all like the Raven Queen Warlocks Familiar


4) I still think aura of fear is overpowered, but I do not think I will ever stop complaining about aura of fear so do not put too much emphasis on that.
I will take a look at it as I continue to fine tune


5) Be careful with the undead lord’s undead swarm and enhance undead features. Those bonuses seem way too high. Perhaps they will in practice turn out to be balanced but I would watch out for those features while play testing.
I will be keep my eye open for that

[Llama513]

I mean, I guess, but it doesn't work as well here. Mostly because a druid trying to be a martial has their wild shape, while a DN trying to be a martial(Even with their "martial" subclass) doesn't have anything like that. I'll revisit this in a moment, don't respond to this part.


What were you thinking, Wizards?
Not sure fully, but I plan to keep the ability as their is precedence for getting it that early, and it fits too well into the class not to give them, if I find a better level too place it I will move it but for now it stays.




A thought I have; At 6th level, it gives everything around you disadvantage against fear, but then turns into a better aura at 6, based on your subclass. Dunno specifics, and luckily, it's not my job.
Interesting I will definitely look into that






Probably.
I will fix that issue then




On the contrary, it still wouldn't be that great. It's still repeated saving throws which would normally be as little as 15-ish damage, 2d4 aura that hurts your allies, etc.
I came up with a possible solution that allows the use of poison damage since I really like the poison for flavor, having the class ignore resistance to poison and treat immunity as resistance, I can also make the aura just be enemies that is fairly easy to explain via controlling the spores with necrotic magic





That's a bit much. That's as much as 45 damage per turn for 10 rounds, 450 damage, enough to kill dragons.
It shouldn't be a huge amount of damage, but more than 20(With luck on your side.) You only get the one attack each turn, so it should be a bit of damage, just not a ton.
Would simply removing the saving throw on the extra damage and leaving it as is be too strong.






Flavour's fine. And the no save thing, maybe... That's 50 damage to upto 8 or so people.
This ties back to previous response as these abilities run off the same basic priniciple




I mean, it won't be too much better in the moment. A slightly better version of the Fiendpact!Warlock's ability, at best. On a long-term, though, it would be the best market for flyby murder. Cast Haste on yourself, have an ally cast Fly, fly by a dragon, infect it, then wait a week or three. Insta-quest finish.
I'll try and come up with some different options for the capstone when I have time, I just really like the idea of a really powerful disease for the plague blade as their capstone, that and for the most part you can't just fly by really powerful creatures as they have legendary saves and would auto pass on the con check






If there were any beneficial abilities, maybe.
There are beneficial abilities to the stats of the shadow, I will change it to just give those when I have time so that you can see what that looks like



And there's the new subclass;
The first ability; Hex once/short rest, and I dunno if it's a typo or what, but it doesn't improve. So, maybe no.

Decripify faces the same problems i've said about the Plagueblade. Con saves or it's worthless. Half-damage with strength weapons also isn't huge, maybe 1/3rd of damage is halved. And it's only things within 15 feet of your hexed victim.

Leech. Same problem as Decripify, only it does very minimal damage. On an absolute scale, maybe you heal 40 damage with enough targets.

Fraility; It's a burst, not something that lasts 1 minute. But it lasts a minute for some reason. It could kill a small horde, but so could a fireball or two. So, also not great. Especially as a capstone.

All in all- It sucks. It's abilities are overall weak and more or less useless in a lot of cases. It also centers around Hex, a 1st level spell that you can cast once. It has nothing to do with Bestow Curse, even as the Cursebringer, and has no unique curses.
I was being very cautious on how to approach this archetype and already have ideas on how to make it better, it is going to be retooled, this was just a test run and getting ideas out and figuring out how to work them

[Requilac]

Fear effects are exactly what you think they are, and that wording is how it is stated in the official text that ability comes from.

Wow WotC, really? I still think you should specify what “fear effects” are, but seeing as how it is already used in official texts that is probably unnecessary, but nonetheless helpful



It is supposed to be all like the Raven Queen Warlocks Familiar


Ahh, yes that make sense, I had not realized that until now. The raven queen warlock does not specify what actions the raven can take either. I still think it would be helpful to directly say that the shadow can take any action (which I am assuming is what you meant) though, even if the raven queen does not have that. Once again, it is most likely unnecessary but still helpful.



You appear to have almost everything ready for play testing. It seems rather clear and well written to me now (aside from those two features). A couple of things look really strong but nothing looks gamebreaking. Play-testing though in my (although limited) experience has always came up with surprising results so what looks overpowered could easily be balanced and vice versa. I have little else to criticize about the dread necromancer in its current form. It is not quite the way I would create it, but that does not necessarily mean it is unbalanced. I will be watching the changes made to the dread necromancer as it progresses and will comment again if I dislike any of the changes, but for now I have little else to say. Good luck!

[Llama513]

Wow WotC, really? I still think you should specify what “fear effects” are, but seeing as how it is already used in official texts that is probably unnecessary, but nonetheless helpful



Ahh, yes that make sense, I had not realized that until now. The raven queen warlock does not specify what actions the raven can take either. I still think it would be helpful to directly say that the shadow can take any action (which I am assuming is what you meant) though, even if the raven queen does not have that. Once again, it is most likely unnecessary but still helpful.



You appear to have almost everything ready for play testing. It seems rather clear and well written to me now (aside from those two features). A couple of things look really strong but nothing looks gamebreaking. Play-testing though in my (although limited) experience has always came up with surprising results so what looks overpowered could easily be balanced and vice versa. I have little else to criticize about the dread necromancer in its current form. It is not quite the way I would create it, but that does not necessarily mean it is unbalanced. I will be watching the changes made to the dread necromancer as it progresses and will comment again if I dislike any of the changes, but for now I have little else to say. Good luck!
Thank you very much for your help, and I look forward to your help with future developments

[Llama513]

As I have gotten a majority of the class locked in accurately, I am going to be working on the Curse Master Archetype separately from the rest of the class and then transfer the finished version over, the Curse Master work can be found here http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1m4ZDnkkf

At the moment there are no changes officially in the archetype, but I do have some plans, the first is to decripify and leech into the same ability and give it at 2nd which allows you to apply leach or decripify onto a target of your hex or bestow curse target. May move frailty into this as well, but set the health level that can cause death to be equal to your charisma modifier times your necromancer level, frailty will be granted at a higher level then the others, or not given as part of the 2nd level ability

At 10th level you can cast hex or bestow curse on multiple targets in a region, my thought is a 30 foot radius, this will probably only be once a long rest initially, maybe twice, depends on power

18th level I am going to completely change, not sure what to yet, any suggestions for new curses or a good capstone are appreciated as this area is not my expertise and I am not sure exactly where to look for inspiration

[Requilac]

18th level I am going to completely change, not sure what to yet, any suggestions for new curses or a good capstone are appreciated as this area is not my expertise and I am not sure exactly where to look for inspiration

Why don’t you take a look at all the other classes capstone for inspiration? They all either have a passive ability which provides a massive power boost (this can be seen in the barbarian, fighter and ranger), Something that improves the quality of another key feature (this can be seen in the bard, Druid and sorcerer) Or give you an extremely powerful ability that takes a some time to recharge (this can be seen in the cleric, paladin and to a lesser extent rogue and wizard). The warlock is kind of unique in this regard. I think the most satisfying (although probably not the most efficient) capstones are the ones that allow you to unleash a massive amount of power but take a long time to recharge. The paladin’s level 20 features are awesomely dramatic and highly entertaining to see in play. I would reccomned doing something similar with the hex master. The first thing that comes to mind would be suitable for this is a powerful hex that allows you to force someone to fight for you. Possibly with some physical alteration being inflicted upon the person. Depending on the image you have of a necromancer they can turn the opponent into a werewolf, possess them automatically and use bonus actions to control them from a distance, or even temporarily drive them insane for the duration (if you wanted to take a lovecraftian approach). But that is just my suggestion, I am sure you could probably find somethig just as good.

[Llama513]

Why don’t you take a look at all the other classes capstone for inspiration? They all either have a passive ability which provides a massive power boost (this can be seen in the barbarian, fighter and ranger), Something that improves the quality of another key feature (this can be seen in the bard, Druid and sorcerer) Or give you an extremely powerful ability that takes a some time to recharge (this can be seen in the cleric, paladin and to a lesser extent rogue and wizard). The warlock is kind of unique in this regard. I think the most satisfying (although probably not the most efficient) capstones are the ones that allow you to unleash a massive amount of power but take a long time to recharge. The paladin’s level 20 features are awesomely dramatic and highly entertaining to see in play. I would reccomned doing something similar with the hex master. The first thing that comes to mind would be suitable for this is a powerful hex that allows you to force someone to fight for you. Possibly with some physical alteration being inflicted upon the person. Depending on the image you have of a necromancer they can turn the opponent into a werewolf, possess them automatically and use bonus actions to control them from a distance, or even temporarily drive them insane for the duration (if you wanted to take a lovecraftian approach). But that is just my suggestion, I am sure you could probably find somethig just as good.

Interesting I like that idea, I will definetely look into that as an option thanks for the idea

[Llama513]

I have an idea for the 18th level feature, not quite sure on the name, working title is Visions of Terror. The idea is based around something out of star wars actually, where a character by the name of Darth Zannah would drive people to insanity, and in some cases death by forcing them to see horrific images from their past, and while in this state they were unaware of what was going on around them. So my thought is that the target makes a wisdom saving throw to resist the initial casting if they fail they take 4d6 psychic damage each turn for the next minute. At the start of each of their turns they can repeat the save, ending the affect on a success. I haven't decided if I want the creature to be stunned or if they should make a melee attack against a random creature within reach as they desperately try to fight off the horrors they see, even if I go with the melee attack option attacks against the affected creature will still have advantage, what do you guys think?

Other option for flavor if I go with the attacking option is instead to have it be that they become paranoid and believe that their allies are imposters and thus attack them.

[Requilac]

I have an idea for the 18th level feature, not quite sure on the name, working title is Visions of Terror. The idea is based around something out of star wars actually, where a character by the name of Darth Zannah would drive people to insanity, and in some cases death by forcing them to see horrific images from their past, and while in this state they were unaware of what was going on around them. So my thought is that the target makes a wisdom saving throw to resist the initial casting if they fail they take 4d6 psychic damage each turn for the next minute. At the start of each of their turns they can repeat the save, ending the affect on a success. I haven't decided if I want the creature to be stunned or if they should make a melee attack against a random creature within reach as they desperately try to fight off the horrors they see, even if I go with the melee attack option attacks against the affected creature will still have advantage, what do you guys think?

If you are undecided whether the target should be stunned or delusional (making attacks against random targets), why don’t you have a chance of either happening, like confusion does? When someone fails it they can roll a die and if they roll above a certain number they become “delirious” and if they roll below a certain number they become stunned. Perhaps roll a D6 and 5 or above results in the target becoming delirious while 4 or below means they are stunned. 4D6 damage every turn seems like a lot, but by the time your are level 18 your enemies gain a surprisingly high damage threshold anyway so it probably will not be too much of an issue.

While writing this up I think it is a good idea to look at spells which have similar effects to determine how to word it properly. Several high level illusions spells are good examples to look at. A feature such as this could easily become overpowered, but it is also really easy to limit it (EG: creatures with immunity to being frightened are not effected by it).

It is actually a rather strange coincidence that you are planning on making such a feature though, because in a homebrew that I am creating, the class does an almost identical effect. A group of enemies makes a wisdom saving throw and if they fail they become delirious and start attacking the closest opponents. If you are interested it is part of The Aberration: fighter subclass PEACH thread in my signature, but in case you are not I will copy the feature below. So far I have had three different people judge the class and so far the only complaint that they have had with feature is that the DC was a set number instead of calculated like a spellcasting save DC. I guess that means it was considered acceptable by them then.

Extended exposure to otherworldly forces has given you the ability to temporarily evoke fell powers that induce insanity and madness upon your foes. You can use your action to envelop yourself in sinister, magical energy that gives you a horrid illusionary appearance and allows you to emit a hideous shriek that tears at the mental stability of your foes. Every hostile creature that can hear you must make a wisdom saving throw with a DC that equals 14+ your inteligence or charisma modifier (your choice). Friendly or neutral creatures hear the screech but do not suffer the same psychological effect, nor do they see your illusionary appearance. Aberrations and creatures which have immunity to being deafened or frightened are not effected by this feature. On a failed save an enemy takes 2D6 psychic damage and enters a mad delirium upon hearing the horrid call of unfathomable forces completely beyond their comprehension. On a successful save, a target takes half damage but takes none of the other effects of this feature.

A delirious creature is wracked with terrible illusions which cause it to panic and recklessly lash out at the new threats which are all around it. The target then uses its following action(s) to make a weapon or spell attack against the closest creature to it, choosing the most threatening target or picking randomly if there are several close by. In this panic they are willing to rashly expend valuable resources in an attempt to defend themselves. Creatures inflicted with this insanity cannot take bonus actions or reactions.

At the end of each of its turns, an affected target can make a Wisdom saving throw. If it succeeds, this effect ends for that target. If it fails, then the creature continues to suffer from madness but does not take any extra damage.

Once you use this feature, you must finish a long rest before you can use it again.

[Llama513]

That is interesting, I really like the idea of the chance at either, based on how the illusions affect the target, my though is that it is a fear/mind effecting ability, so creatures with immunity to those are immune to the ability, I will definitely give your archetype a look

[Llama513]

Changed Enhance undead to only affect undead created through the use of undead swarm

Changed Aura of Terror to give disadvantage on fear effects, giving aura boost at 6th based on archetype
I will adding to this as I go, this is more to get idea out for possibilities for different aura's / upgrades to grant at 6th level

Undead Lord: Undead created through the use of undead swarm within your aura of terror add your spell casting modifier to their saving throws

or

Undead created through the use of undead swarm within your aura of terror add your spell casting modifier to their AC

Plague Blade: Those with in your aura of terror are opened up to the infectious nature of your powers, they become vulnerable to poison damage and have disadvantage on saves against being poisoned, if the creature has resistance to poison damage the creature instead takes normal damage from poison damage, if the creature is immune to poison damage they instead have resistance. If the creature is normally immune to being poisoned they lose that immunity while in the aura, and make the save as normal.

Soul Caster: You can use the shadow of those inside of your aura to cast touch spells on them

not sure fully on this one


Curse Master: You are able to send bursts of dark energy out from yourself disrupting the concentration of those affected. You can cause a creature within your aura of terror to make a concentration check against your spell save DC on a failure their concentration is broken.

[Requilac]

Changed Enhance undead to only affect undead created through the use of undead swarm

Changed Aura of Terror to give disadvantage on fear effects, giving aura boost at 6th based on archetype
I will adding to this as I go, this is more to get idea out for possibilities for different aura's / upgrades to grant at 6th level

Undead Lord: Undead created through the use of undead swarm within your aura of terror add your spell casting modifier to their saving throws

or

Undead created through the use of undead swarm within your aura of terror add your spell casting modifier to their AC

Plague Blade: Those with in your aura of terror are opened up to the infectious nature of your powers, they become vulnerable to poison damage and have disadvantage on saves against being poisoned, if the creature has resistance to poison damage the creature instead takes normal damage from poison damage, if the creature is immune to poison damage they instead have resistance. If the creature is normally immune to being poisoned they lose that immunity while in the aura, and make the save as normal.

Soul Caster: You can use the shadow of those inside of your aura to cast touch spells on them

not sure fully on this one


Curse Master: You are able to send bursts of dark energy out from yourself disrupting the concentration of those affected. You can cause a creature within your aura of terror to make a concentration check against your spell save DC on a failure their concentration is broken.

To be completely honest, aura of terror is powerful enough as is and does not need any upgrading. While these are definitely interesting benefits in concept, adding more power to an already volatile feature is not the best of ideas. This class is already rather powerful as is and I think it is entirely unnecessary to add these features in unless it proved to be too weak after play-testing.

But for the sake of the arguement, Let’s pretend that I do think those aura effects should be added in. I would say that most of these aura effects fine except for the plague blades. The undead lord’s is pretty solid, the soul caster’s one is interesting, the curse master’s is pretty situational but not too overpowered. The plague blade’s is way too broken though. Imposing disadvantage on all saving throws against poison damage and making them vulnerable too it. This Means that diseased blade does twice as much damage and has a much higher chance of succeeding. That is very overpowered and needs a lot of toning down, lest the plague blade become much too powerful.

[Llama513]

To be completely honest, aura of terror is powerful enough as is and does not need any upgrading. While these are definitely interesting benefits in concept, adding more power to an already volatile feature is not the best of ideas. This class is already rather powerful as is and I think it is entirely unnecessary to add these features in unless it proved to be too weak after play-testing.

But for the sake of the arguement, Let’s pretend that I do think those aura effects should be added in. I would say that most of these aura effects fine except for the plague blades. The undead lord’s is pretty solid, the soul caster’s one is interesting, the curse master’s is pretty situational but not too overpowered. The plague blade’s is way too broken though. Imposing disadvantage on all saving throws against poison damage and making them vulnerable too it. This Means that diseased blade does twice as much damage and has a much higher chance of succeeding. That is very overpowered and needs a lot of toning down, lest the plague blade become much too powerful.

I agree that these are unnecessary if I had left Aura of terror in its original state, but I toned it down to only give disadvantage against fear.

As for the plague blade would removing the vulnerability and disadvantage portion be too good, since it would simply allow them to use poison effectively against creatures that have resistance to it and actual damage those that are immune

[Requilac]

I agree that these are unnecessary if I had left Aura of terror in its original state, but I toned it down to only give disadvantage against fear.

Oh yeah, i forgot about that. I have to admit that the writing of it is kind of strange since not many spells produce the frightened effect, but it has advantages in a couple of niche scenarios. For a base class ability I would not put in such a specific ability, but other official classes have that kind of thing anyway (such as the rogue’s blindsense, druid’s nature’s ward) so it is not unbalanced, just strange.



As for the plague blade would removing the vulnerability and disadvantage portion be too good, since it would simply allow them to use poison effectively against creatures that have resistance to it and actual damage those that are immune

I was mainly concerned about the poison vulnerability and disadvantage on save parts, not quite the bypass damage resistance and condition and damage immunity. I do not see anything wrong with that part of it, aside form it being kind of immersion breaking in a couple of strange cases (Wait, did you just poison a golem made of pure rock? How exactly do you poison a incorporeal ghost? The ooze can be affected by poison, how, because I am pretty sure it Does not have organs to contaminate in the first place?). But I would certainly be fine with that feature. It seems around the same level as the other auras, especially if you are playing a hardcover adventure.

[Llama513]

Oh yeah, i forgot about that. I have to admit that the writing of it is kind of strange since not many spells produce the frightened effect, but it has advantages in a couple of niche scenarios. For a base class ability I would not put in such a specific ability, but other official classes have that kind of thing anyway (such as the rogue’s blindsense, druid’s nature’s ward) so it is not unbalanced, just strange.



I was mainly concerned about the poison vulnerability and disadvantage on save parts, not quite the bypass damage resistance and condition and damage immunity. I do not see anything wrong with that part of it, aside form it being kind of immersion breaking in a couple of strange cases (Wait, did you just poison a golem made of pure rock? How exactly do you poison a incorporeal ghost? The ooze can be affected by poison, how, because I am pretty sure it Does not have organs to contaminate in the first place?). But I would certainly be fine with that feature. It seems around the same level as the other auras, especially if you are playing a hardcover adventure.
I see your point on those creatures, I counter with it being more akin to a corrupting magic that takes the form of a poisonesque damage

[Llama513]

As I feel that the Curse Master can now stand its ground with the other archetypes I have transferred it into the original document and will be making changes from there

Idea for Capstone of Plague Blade, called Avatar of Disease

For the next minute your body becomes gaunt and sickly as you channel the full power of the diseases held within. For the next minute you gain the following benefits:


You are immune to poison damage and being poisoned
As a bonus action you can form a blade of necrotic energy that is infused with your blood. This blade functions the same as Flame Blade execpt it deals 2D8 Poison Damage and on a sucessful hit the target must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it is also poisoned until the end of your next turn.
When you are hit by a melee attack there is a 10 percent chance that the creature that hit you is affected by a random disease as if contagion had been cast on them, a creature can only be affected in this way by one disease


This ability can be used once per long rest


Made changes to shadow form so that you only gain the beneficial aspects of shadow stats

[Llama513]

*Bump* Hadn't gotten response about the changes that I made, or the idea for the plague blade capstone, so if there are issues please let me know, otherwise I am going to implement the changes and the new capstone

[Requilac]

They all seem fine to me. You more or less adressed all the issues I had with class. As I previously stated, this is not quite how I would create a class, but I cannot say that anything is actually “broken” or “unbalanced” at this point. The features you are adding seem fine to me.

[Llama513]

They all seem fine to me. You more or less adressed all the issues I had with class. As I previously stated, this is not quite how I would create a class, but I cannot say that anything is actually “broken” or “unbalanced” at this point. The features you are adding seem fine to me.

Glad to hear, thanks again for your help

[Requilac]

Hey Llama, you should check the third page of your class document again. It is having a strange issue where the text on the right side is pushed almost completely off the page, making it unreadable. It is impossible now to tell what the lichdom and multiple undead lord features are saying. You may want to look into that.

Also, may I ask why the dread necromancer gains proficiency with sickles? Is it just for thematic purposes, because you do realize that the dagger (because it has the finesse property and can be thrown) and the quarterstaff (as it does more damage when wielded with one hand and even when wielded with two-hands it does not need to consume the bonus action to maintain damage like the sickle would) are superior options, right?

Edit: perhaps instead of gaining proficiency with sickles you could give them proficiency with a homebrew scythe that only the dread necromancer has proficiency with? I would personally make a scythe something like a melee weapon that deals 1D6 slashing damage on a hit and has the finesse and versatile (1D8) property. It would cost 1 GP and weigh three pounds. This would essentially be a spear that does slashing damage and trades the thrown property for the finesse property. That is better than the sickle as it is a viable option for dread necromancers who fight with a shield or want to use a two-handed weapon. The quarterstaff will still find its place because it can be used as an arcane focus. What do you think of that?

[Llama513]

Hey Llama, you should check the third page of your class document again. It is having a strange issue where the text on the right side is pushed almost completely off the page, making it unreadable. It is impossible now to tell what the lichdom and multiple undead lord features are saying. You may want to look into that.

Also, may I ask why the dread necromancer gains proficiency with sickles? Is it just for thematic purposes, because you do realize that the dagger (because it has the finesse property and can be thrown) and the quarterstaff (as it does more damage when wielded with one hand and even when wielded with two-hands it does not need to consume the bonus action to maintain damage like the sickle would) are superior options, right?

Edit: perhaps instead of gaining proficiency with sickles you could give them proficiency with a homebrew scythe that only the dread necromancer has proficiency with? I would personally make a scythe something like a melee weapon that deals 1D6 slashing damage on a hit and has the finesse and versatile (1D8) property. It would cost 1 GP and weigh three pounds. This would essentially be a spear that does slashing damage and trades the thrown property for the finesse property. That is better than the sickle as it is a viable option for dread necromancers who fight with a shield or want to use a two-handed weapon. The quarterstaff will still find its place because it can be used as an arcane focus. What do you think of that?

The text looks fine to me, are you on google chrome, because if you aren't that's probably why it looks weird, and yeah the sickle was purely thematic, I really like the scythe thought I'm going to go with that

[Requilac]

The text looks fine to me, are you on google chrome, because if you aren't that's probably why it looks weird, and yeah the sickle was purely thematic, I really like the scythe thought I'm going to go with that

Yes, I am using chrome, but I am also on mobile so that might be what is causing it. Remember to put the statistics of the scythe somewhere on the document if you are including it as part of the class. You can possibly make it an info box below the weapon proficiencies list or somewhere near that area. Or make a little notation that says see page X and write down its statistics on the last page. Also make sure that it is not a simple or martial weapon, because if it is then other people may try to use it. Well it looks like you added that in as I was saying it. Do not make it a simple weapon though unless you want other people to try to use it. Call it an exotic weapon or something.

[Llama513]

Yes, I am using chrome, but I am also on mobile so that might be what is causing it. Remember to put the statistics of the scythe somewhere on the document if you are including it as part of the class. You can possibly make it an info box below the weapon proficiencies list or somewhere near that area. Or make a little notation that says see page X and write down its statistics on the last page. Also make sure that it is not a simple or martial weapon, because if it is then other people may try to use it. Well it looks like you added that in as I was saying it. Do not make it a simple weapon though unless you want other people to try to use it. Call it an exotic weapon or something.

I don't mind others using it, since it is not exactly a difficult weapon to be used, and in truth I want it to be open to Clerics of Death or Grave, since the scythe is often a symbol of death, so for the worshipers of Death deities it would make sense for them to use, thus opening it up to a lot more people

[Llama513]

I also just got Xanathar's Guide to Everything and am going to be adjusting the spell lists to account for new options available that may/do fit better with the archetypes and class

[Requilac]

I don't mind others using it, since it is not exactly a difficult weapon to be used, and in truth I want it to be open to Clerics of Death or Grave, since the scythe is often a symbol of death, so for the worshipers of Death deities it would make sense for them to use, thus opening it up to a lot more people

Fair enough. You may want to put the scythe in a separate document though if that is the case.

I have no issues with the dread necromancer left, unless you wanted me to berate you for grammatical errors (familuarity and knowledge of the necromantic art), strange wordings (why fear effects?) and pedantic, mostly irrelevant complaints (why does the aura of disease deal 2D4 damage instead of 1D8?).

[Llama513]

Fair enough. You may want to put the scythe in a separate document though if that is the case.

I have no issues with the dread necromancer left, unless you wanted me to berate you for grammatical errors (familuarity and knowledge of the necromantic art), strange wordings (why fear effects?) and pedantic, mostly irrelevant complaints (why does the aura of disease deal 2D4 damage instead of 1D8?).

That is a fair point, and I think I'm good on the nit picky stuff, I am planning to run the text through a program that looks for misspelling and grammar now that I have it where I am satisfied with the mechanics