Tome of Battle Maneuvers System for 5e

[Llama513]

I am working on fine tuning my ToB conversion (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryejTJ2Ox) and was wondering if it is correct to treat the maneuvers as spells, or if there was some way to keep something like the way they were prepared in the original ToB without having them be over powered

The new system I am developing is here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1-QbJXcW-)

[Findulidas]

I am working on fine tuning my ToB conversion (http://http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryejTJ2Ox) and was wondering if it is correct to treat the maneuvers as spells, or if there was some way to keep something like the way they were prepared in the original ToB without having them be over powered

Sounds tricky. You would have to compare them to what kind of spell level they compare to. It might take some playtesting.

[Llama513]

Sounds tricky. You would have to compare them to what kind of spell level they compare to. It might take some playtesting.

I have done playtesting with them as spells, and it felt nice for balance, but not quite right for what the classes had felt like in the past, mind I am not saying that it wasn't fun necause it was, it just felt off.

My thought is going off of something like what warlocks have, but I fear that limiting them too much, The one thing I do know is that they definetly can't be how they were in ToB.

It may turn out that treating them as spells is the only way to keep it balanced, but I'm not sure yet

A thought that I had, was to give them half the normal spell slots up to 5th level, and have them recover those slots on a short rest, but that might be too powerful, the other idea that I think would work better is for them to have at maximum, 3 1st level slots, 2 2nd and 3rd level slots, and 1 4th and 5th level slot, and recover those on short rest, and then they would get 1 spell slot a day for 6th level and higher, that might be worth a shot

[Llama513]

Fixed link in the OP it works now

[MeeposFire]

Why reinvent the wheel? Just have a certain number of maneuvers you can use on a short rest. Have certain maneuvers to have a level requirement before being taken so you can have different levels of power. As you level the number of maneuvers you can have ready and the power of them increases.

Really the battlemaster has everything you need to get ideas. If you do not want it to boost regular attack actions like the BM just make sure the maneuvers are strong enough on their own to replace the attack action on the class in question.

[Llama513]

Why reinvent the wheel? Just have a certain number of maneuvers you can use on a short rest. Have certain maneuvers to have a level requirement before being taken so you can have different levels of power. As you level the number of maneuvers you can have ready and the power of them increases.

Really the battlemaster has everything you need to get ideas. If you do not want it to boost regular attack actions like the BM just make sure the maneuvers are strong enough on their own to replace the attack action on the class in question.

That is a really good idea, I will take a look at that, thank you

[Llama513]

I took a look at the battle master, and with the power oof the maneuvers I don't think that starting, at 4 is a good idea, my thought is to give them a number of maneuvers per short rest that starts at 2, and goes up at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th the level for the maneuvers that are short rest will max out at 5th level, the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th will be one a long rest because of the power behind their manuevers, I cpuld also just go with the warlock system, but with the fact that almost all of their manuevers are melee I think giving them a few more will work out fine

[Talionis]

To give you a second option think about using Ki to power maneuvers. Higher level can cost more ki peruse. I'd balance things on 1/3 caster level so effects should probably not be better than fourth or fifth level spells.

5E is very different than 3.5 and as much as I miss OP characters for one shots I'm glad 5E came about.

[Llama513]

To give you a second option think about using Ki to power maneuvers. Higher level can cost more ki peruse. I'd balance things on 1/3 caster level so effects should probably not be better than fourth or fifth level spells.

5E is very different than 3.5 and as much as I miss OP characters for one shots I'm glad 5E came about.

While I like the idea, I want to keep the higher level maneuvers, and have come up with a nice system, I'm going with the warlock system, but giving them an extra manuever slot per short rest, for the maneuvers up to 5th level, and then a feature like mtstic arcanum for their 6th and higher maneuvers

[HolyDraconus]

Honestly, as annoying as it would be, I would straight up make them their own thing. Having them as ki with high costs would mean the class(es) can stack with monk, who would dip to use the ki to fuel their own abilities better than going pure would. Making them take spell slots just means that paladins and the like will never need to go squishy, plus it hosts a new form of problem of killing the EK. As maneuvers though, they would super charge the BM, since most BMs get out after 3 anyway. Safest when multiclass is on the table is to destroy the option for those kinds of interactions.

[Llama513]

Honestly, as annoying as it would be, I would straight up make them their own thing. Having them as ki with high costs would mean the class(es) can stack with monk, who would dip to use the ki to fuel their own abilities better than going pure would. Making them take spell slots just means that paladins and the like will never need to go squishy, plus it hosts a new form of problem of killing the EK. As maneuvers though, they would super charge the BM, since most BMs get out after 3 anyway. Safest when multiclass is on the table is to destroy the option for those kinds of interactions.

Thats what I did, but to make that more obvious, I can call them disciplines, so there is no confusion, I'm simply norrowing the warlock spells system for determining how many can be used.

[Llama513]

The Homebrewery has been changed to reflect the new system, I think I worded it correctly, but it was a little strange to make it work

[Vaz]

Being fair the Tome of battle is just Spells for Mundane, just with a limited list and different recovery mechanic.

[djreynolds]

I am working on fine tuning my ToB conversion (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryejTJ2Ox) and was wondering if it is correct to treat the maneuvers as spells, or if there was some way to keep something like the way they were prepared in the original ToB without having them be over powered

I think this is great. There is no difference between a smite and a battlemaster's maneuvers, or misty and a rogue using cunning action to disengage

Rage is literally, stonekin and divine favor coupled together (excluding the radiant damage).

Second wind is healing word on yourself. Action surge is akin to haste

Spell slots and grit points, etc.

This is good stuff

[Steampunkette]

Slightly different suggestion:

Ditch spell slots for Invocations.

Ala carte purchasing with level requirements, recharge rates, and stance or ability requisites.

Have some replace attacks, have others take actions, bonus actions, or reactions. Give them individual recharge rates so that players can choose long rests or short rests as their preferred recovery mechanic by selecting those specific maneuvers.

By removing spell slots and levels you lift the "Martial Magic" a bit and give them a flavor different from arcane paladins.

[Llama513]

That is a good idea, and I could very easily tweak what I have too work with that, as there are nice levels where the maneuvers could be granted, and it makes them feel like something unique, thank you very much, I think I am going to keep most of the abilities short rest, to match better the feel of the classes, but treating them like invocations will make them feel really unique, and hopefully simpler to understand.

I will be posting a link that has the rework for maneuvers, and system so that I can get it right before changing the original homebrew

[Llama513]

The link to where I will be developing the new system is in the OP

[Theodoxus]

in your WIP (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1-QbJXcW-), the Maneuvers Readied for Crusader is wrapped off the edge... can you fix that?

[DivisibleByZero]

A quick glance tells me that it needs a lot of editing work for the 3.5-5e port.
You have multiple problems with things being called "standard actions" and adding "deflection bonus" and things like that.

[Llama513]

Theodoxus, yes I can fix that

Divisible, I will be taking care of those, and thus why I am working on them separately so that I can get them correct before transferring to the homebrewery

[Llama513]

in your WIP (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1-QbJXcW-), the Maneuvers Readied for Crusader is wrapped off the edge... can you fix that?

I don't see anything wrong with it, were you looking at it with Google chrome, because if not that is probably the issue

I have finished putting in the Desert Wind Maneuvers, as well as the stances and Fundamental Techniques, I will be going through and fixing up wording, and fine tuning them befor I get the others transferred over, but this gives an idea as to the power level for the maneuvers, and hopefully a glimpse into the system, there are a few details that are left over from the original system I was using, those will be ironed out when I start to fine tune everything.

[Theodoxus]

yup, Chrome.

All I see is the first word of each line for Maneuvers Readied:

Your
befor
Five r
prayi
Yo
long
Th
show

Then it goes on to Saving Throws. Everything else is formatted fine, just that one paragraph.

[Llama513]

yup, Chrome.

All I see is the first word of each line for Maneuvers Readied:

Your
befor
Five r
prayi
Yo
long
Th
show

Then it goes on to Saving Throws. Everything else is formatted fine, just that one paragraph.

Weird, cause it looks fine to me

Just in case it doesn't fix itself, or others have this issue, the maneuvers readied for crusader says

Your maneuvers require preparation in the form of prayer, before you can use them in battle. You can ready two of the five maneuvers you know at 1st level. You ready maneuvers by praying for 5 minutes.
You can change your readied maneuvers when you finish a long rest.
The Maneuvers Readied column of the Crusader table shows how many maneuvers you can ready each day.

[Llama513]

I have put in the basic amount of material from the tome of battle to get an idea of what the system will work like, I'm pretty sure that I got it close to the original feel, while maintaining a balanced class.

If there is anything that seems weird please let me know.

[Llama513]

I am thinking about putting the other disciplines in, but I am also hesitant about putting in the other disciplines until I get the one's put in balanced and figured out, as it is a lot of material but I am worried that it might need the full set of maneuvers to get the balance right.

[Llama513]

Bump. I added the other maneuvers in, I will be adding the details on how to read the maneuvers in a bit, but I think it is a good start, I haven't gone through and really decided what should be short and long rest quite yet, I have a basic system that I was using that I think gives a good basis but I am sure that there will be maneuvers that will be changed to either short or long rest

[eastmabl]

Being fair the Tome of battle is just Spells for Mundane, just with a limited list and different recovery mechanic.

4E for folks who didn't realize it at the time.

[Llama513]

4E for folks who didn't realize it at the time.

The original certainly was overpowered like much of 4e was

[MeeposFire]

The original certainly was overpowered like much of 4e was

Lol what? ToB was certainly more versatile but was nowhere near as potent as essentially every primary caster in the game (we are not counting things like the healer class of course). Even compared to other warrior classes you could get more damage out of things like barbarian than a warblade but the warblade would still be a lot better since it was more versatile and would be less of a one trick pony.

As for the 4e comment I am not even sure what you mean.

[Nifft]

As for the 4e comment I am not even sure what you mean.

In 4e, a Fighter was competitive with a Wizard from level 1 through level 30.

I guess some people feel that parity == overpowered.

[Llama513]

In 4e, a Fighter was competitive with a Wizard from level 1 through level 30.

I guess some people feel that parity == overpowered.

what I was saying was that 4e characters in general were overpowered in comparison to other editions, and the ToB was overpowered compared to alot of 3.5, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the maneuvers that I am working on

[Morph Bark]

Have you playtested any of these conversions of the ToB classes against existing 5E classes? Both against Fighters and Monks and against full spellcasters?

[Llama513]

Have you playtested any of these conversions of the ToB classes against existing 5E classes? Both against Fighters and Monks and against full spellcasters?

Not with the new system, but when I was treating maneuvers as spells, it kept did well but didn't outshine the other classes

Im going to be play testing with new system coming up soon, but it also hasn't had extremely thorough testing

[Llama513]

I decided to bring over the new system into the original which can be found here: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryejTJ2Ox

There is still a little bit of fine tuning to be taken care of, most of which will come about once I get to playtest, or get some feedback if anybody gives them a try

[Knaight]

An option would be to keep something like the Warblade recovery system - you have maneuvers, you use maneuvers, and by attacking without maneuvers you get them back. If that ends up too powerful, you can replace that attacking without maneuvers with a specific non-attack action, possibly representing dropping back into a neutral fighting stance.

[Llama513]

An option would be to keep something like the Warblade recovery system - you have maneuvers, you use maneuvers, and by attacking without maneuvers you get them back. If that ends up too powerful, you can replace that attacking without maneuvers with a specific non-attack action, possibly representing dropping back into a neutral fighting stance.

If I implement something it would either be the swordsage system, spend your turn doing nothing to recover a expended maneuver, or a combination of the two, you make a single melee attack and recover one expended maneuver

[Llama513]

I have been thinking about it and realized that with the system where it is right now, at high levels it may be too powerful, as there isn't a limit on the number of long rest manuevers (which are the stronger maneuvers) that you can prepare, however I am not sure since I haven't gotten to play test it, and the trade off for having the stronger maneuvers is that you can't use as many as a full caster, or some one that chose to prep short rest maneuvers, but I'm not sure if that is a big enough trade off with where they sit right now.

One thought that I had was to make it so you can only prepare a number of long rest maneuvers equal to 1/3 of the total number of maneuvers you can prepare, but at the same time I don't want to limit the choice of players or set a limit by level requirement: works, since it allows you to prepare all long rest if you wish, but you won't be able to have prepared a full set of the extremely powerful maneuvers (level requirement 15 and up).

Another option was to remove the long rest maneuvers, but that takes out a lot of cool maneuvers and material

The other option is to make the long rest maneuvers into a separate feature of sorts that allows you access to a limited number that recharge on long rest, call them something like True Techniques (working name not great at coming up with them) and explain the limit on the number and the strain with the fact that in order to use them you have to tap into the very essence of the sublime path, which puts a large amount of strain on the body and mind, I personally prefer this option most since it gives a flavorful and believable explanation for what is happening

The last option that comes to my mind is to lower the damage of the long rest maneuvers

[Human Paragon 3]

I would make every school from ToB into a feat for Battlemaster fighters that adds an extra superiority die or two, and then grants 3 maneuvers that embody the school. The bigger, more powerful ones could require more dice to activate, or scale up as fighters get their extra attacks.

[Llama513]

I would make every school from ToB into a feat for Battlemaster fighters that adds an extra superiority die or two, and then grants 3 maneuvers that embody the school. The bigger, more powerful ones could require more dice to activate, or scale up as fighters get their extra attacks.

That is an interesting take, but I feel that the ToB deserves to be thwir own classes, thus why I made them into their own classes and came up with the current system, that is being fime tuned