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AnBe
2017-05-27, 06:55 PM
I've been gaming with my friend for years now, and I have noticed a recurring problem. This friend, let's just call him Loki, is without doubt a severe power gamer. I don't want to quit playing with him because he is a good friend of mine, and I don't have a lot of other options for players right now. We don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to the game, I think.

We mostly play D&D. D&D is pretty much the only tabletop system he cares to play, unlike me. I have a wide variety of interests when it comes to tabletop RPGs. His narrow focus is but one of the problems here.

First off is the character creation. He designs his characters to be as powerful as possible, and is utterly repulsed by even the smallest of flaws. I wish he accepted that flaws can make a character much more interesting. But no, he must make his character a ridiculous badass in all circumstances. If his character gets a few low rolls and bad luck, he deems it a character problem rather than just bad luck. Then he decides he wants to make a new character because this one is "not working out." It is frustrating. Sometimes he makes characters to be suave, charming, handsome, smooth-talkers but he doesn't actually roleplay his character as such, even though I give him opportunities to do so.

The next is gameplay. Sometimes he can produce a great roleplaying moment or two, but really that's not what he plays the game for. He doesn't seem to care about storytelling or any of that stuff we call fluff. He just wants to be the best. He wants to dominate the world and get all the best loot all the time. Worst of all this selfish playstyle does not mesh well with me or the other players. He's simply out for himself, only doing favors for others if he can get something out of it. He constantly brags about how awesome his character is, often interrupting me in the middle of descriptions. When it comes to combat situations or any other type of conflict, it becomes a "Him vs. Me" "GM vs. Player" mentality and it pisses me off. And if I try to roleplay his enemies as smart, cunning, or powerful, or even just get a few good rolls, he complains and is sour, saying I am not being fair or that I am being a lame and/or a ****.

Have any of you dealt with a similar problem? I am not starting this thread just to have a whine and a moan, and I don't expect I can change the way he plays. I just want to figure out a way to GM for him that fits his playstyle better. I'm a flexible GM, but I'm no Superman.

Koo Rehtorb
2017-05-27, 07:02 PM
Not everyone is suited to doing everything with everyone else. You two might just be RPG incompatible.

If you really want to try to make it work, though, talk with him. Tell him what you told us and see if you can come to some sort of agreement.

Guizonde
2017-05-27, 07:31 PM
i'd say first of all i feel for you. we've all been there at the table with "that guy". talking is the first solution, and the one that usually yields the most pleasant results. i don't know your temperament or his, but try to keep it civil and friendly, because there's a risk of it devolving into a shouting match and bruised friendships. it's a roleplaying game, after all. it's a pasttime. no use getting drama involved into it.

secondly, you might want to see why he's so power-obsessed. a couple threads recently talked about paranoid players and some posters commented it might be about filling a void in the player's life. i won't go into pseudo-freudian excuses, it could be a track to explore. i hate playing wizards because i'm bad at math, and wizards always felt like the math nerds to me. (that, and the math involved...)

finally, are you the only one griping about it, or are all the other players in the same boat? if one dude is spoiling the fun of many, get rid of him. this is obviously the tactical nuke of the problem, and i won't recommend using it unless there are no alternatives.

i really hope you find a happy resolution to this. good luck :)

oxybe
2017-05-27, 07:37 PM
He's not doing it wrong, he's just not in the right group. You and your team want to eat Strawberry Icecream and he want Chocolate. Honestly, not everyone is a fit for every group. I left my longtime group of 10+ years after being frustrated with them focusing on playing adventure paths and nothing else. I could have stayed and continued to make characters that kept fitting the AP mould, but it wouldn't have actually solved my problems... just swept them under the rug.

So I left. The GM and rest of the group wanted to continue the APs and rather then bring them down, I decided to part ways of my own initiative.

If your friend's playstyle doesn't fit with your group and it's causing a problem, talk to him. let him know that his style isn't meshing with yours. See if there is a compromise available.

If he's not willing to change or you both agree there are some things with your personal wants that are irreconcilable, then let him go. Is this one player, friend or not, really worth keeping knowing that he's not meshing with the rest of the group, to the detriment of the whole?

Anxe
2017-05-27, 08:17 PM
Sounds like a stereotypical "video gamer." He likes having the biggest sword and beating the biggest bad guys to get the even bigger, biggest sword. Nothing wrong with that, but as you've said, it's not meshing with your interests.

I doubt he will change much. The character changing isn't a big deal. Wanting a big sword isn't a big deal.

Interrupting you too often is a problem. Power gaming to a level significantly beyond the rest of the group is a problem. Insulting you is definitely a problem.

All of these things you should just discuss with him. As the others have said, be polite. Start off with an "I statement." https://www.understood.org/en/tools/parenting-coach/articles/use-i-statements-to-settle-conflicts
Offer small solutions (most of which would be him just not saying something rude) and good luck!

AnBe
2017-05-27, 09:03 PM
I'm grateful for your posts. Thank you all. It is true that I am not the only one who notices these problems. Other players have made complaints about him as well. At least my friend Loki takes the game seriously, which unfortunately I can't say the same for others.

Kami2awa
2017-05-29, 09:55 AM
Talking is the obvious way. I'd say a second route might be to let him run a game for a while (unrelated to your main game). This might let him develop more of an understanding that the game is more fun if the GM and players are not antagonistic and that balance is necessary to preserve enjoyment. Since he's actually good at roleplaying and presumably good at character creation, he might be a really good GM.

Mutazoia
2017-05-29, 10:10 AM
If talking it your doesn't help, you could always try the "tough love" approach. Next time he wants to roll a new character, tell him it's going to be a while before you can work a new character into the campaign, rather than having one just pop out of thin air. I'm not sure how often your group meets, but make it a few sessions before you let him bring the new character in. Naturally, he doesn't get any loot for the stuff that happens until his new character show's up, so he'll be just a little behind everybody else. Every time he want's to bring in a new character, the wait gets longer and longer, and the new characters get further and further behind, gear wise (and maybe bring the new one in a level lower than the last character). Either he learns to stick with a character, or he stops playing all together.

Every group has to deal with a problem player at some point. Sometimes you put up with them for a while because you don't want to hurt their feelings. Eventually you just have to bite the bullet. Talking it over with your friend is the "pulling the band-aid off quickly" method. After that, you have to start considering the well-being of the rest of the group. "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" to borrow a phrase. If you let his behaviour continue, you could lose the other players, and then where would you be?

WhiteBread
2017-05-29, 12:33 PM
If talking it your doesn't help, you could always try the "tough love" approach. Next time he wants to roll a new character, tell him it's going to be a while before you can work a new character into the campaign, rather than having one just pop out of thin air. I'm not sure how often your group meets, but make it a few sessions before you let him bring the new character in. Naturally, he doesn't get any loot for the stuff that happens until his new character show's up, so he'll be just a little behind everybody else. Every time he want's to bring in a new character, the wait gets longer and longer, and the new characters get further and further behind, gear wise (and maybe bring the new one in a level lower than the last character). Either he learns to stick with a character, or he stops playing all together.

Every group has to deal with a problem player at some point. Sometimes you put up with them for a while because you don't want to hurt their feelings. Eventually you just have to bite the bullet. Talking it over with your friend is the "pulling the band-aid off quickly" method. After that, you have to start considering the well-being of the rest of the group. "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" to borrow a phrase. If you let his behaviour continue, you could lose the other players, and then where would you be?

I think this is a very bad idea. Though love is not solving anything but making matters worse in my eyes. This is exactly what DM vs PC is.
Currently I am also a player that loves to switch characters around because I never feel like the character really fits me. And I am a hardcore roleplayer and I do love optimizing my character to some extend. My solution to the matter at hand would be to create a custom class for this player. Make one that is similar to Chameleon Prc that can be anything but always worse than others. Maybe also consider giving that class a reroll feature when he rolls really bad(there are feats that can do this aswell). This way the player could change his character concept everyday while actually sticking to a character. Just give him the flaw that the character thinks he is someone else everyday. I think the problem in your campaign is that the group is really new and he is someone that doesn't want to stick with a paladin when he notices they have a stick up their arse.



I'm grateful for your posts. Thank you all. It is true that I am not the only one who notices these problems. Other players have made complaints about him as well. At least my friend Loki takes the game seriously, which unfortunately I can't say the same for others.

Sounds like my group where only 2 others really care about the game and rest forgets how to attack roll but than think they are entitled to be on par with the other players. Giving a player that actually plays and comes prepared some extra is not wrong. However I can't really grasp how much power creeping he is. If he is that player that tends to play a wizard on a full fighter campaign I guess this won't work out that well.

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-05-29, 12:40 PM
Not everyone is suited to doing everything with everyone else. You two might just be RPG incompatible.

Try something else, like sex, it might be great.





:smallamused:

But seriously, even if I had only read the title the answer would still be "talk to him". This is an out of character problem, and there is (extreme exceptions being what they are) only one way to deal with those. He's not going to get the hints. Just pull him aside ones and talk about the problems you perceive in how the group is functioning, where it's his fault and what he could possibly do to help.

Slipperychicken
2017-05-29, 12:46 PM
*click!* Roleplaying support helpline speaking, have you tried talking to your players?

halfeye
2017-05-29, 01:12 PM
I think this is a very bad idea. Though love is not solving anything but making matters worse in my eyes.

Tough love, not "though love" whatever that is or isn't. Tough love is letting people make their own mistakes. We have to do that.

Jay R
2017-05-29, 03:26 PM
You have a power gamer. As long as you want to play with your friend, you will continue to have a power gamer.

So the straightforward answer is to plan for the group you have. Design a game that one power gamer can enjoy, and that the others can enjoy as well.

Set up some encounters that require his awesome build to get past. Set up some other encounters that require role-playing, puzzle-solving, or skills to solve. Tell him that's exactly what you're doing, to allow the other players to have as much fun as he has.

Occasionally use trap doors, a single bigger monster who pounces on him, or other tools to separate him from the fight the others are in, to let them fight.

Make it fun for him. Make it fun for others. This requires planning for your actual situation.

Noje
2017-05-29, 04:32 PM
We mostly play D&D. D&D is pretty much the only tabletop system he cares to play, unlike me. I have a wide variety of interests when it comes to tabletop RPGs. His narrow focus is but one of the problems here.

Worst of all this selfish playstyle does not mesh well with me or the other players. He's simply out for himself, only doing favors for others if he can get something out of it. He constantly brags about how awesome his character is, often interrupting me in the middle of descriptions. When it comes to combat situations or any other type of conflict, it becomes a "Him vs. Me" "GM vs. Player" mentality and it pisses me off. And if I try to roleplay his enemies as smart, cunning, or powerful, or even just get a few good rolls, he complains and is sour, saying I am not being fair or that I am being a lame and/or a ****.


It seems like your friend is really hurting your roleplay group. First, he forces your group to cater to all of his strict requirements for him to play. Then, he slows the game down to a grinding halt as he frequently rolls new characters and makes you stop what you're doing to find a way to work in his little Mary sue. And even after he makes you go through all this pain for him, he antagonizes you and berates you with insults, and that is unacceptable. I can't imagine you are able to enjoy to play in those conditions. It's really not worth the hours of effort you put into the game as a GM if you have to deal with that.

It's not that he's a "power gamer," it's that he not being a good player by any measure. Tell him to clean up his act if he wants to keep gaming with you. If he doesn't shape up, it's better to have a smaller group with people you enjoy gaming with than a slightly larger group that's a pain to run.

AnBe
2017-05-29, 05:19 PM
I'm not interested in kicking this guy out. That's just not an option for me. I will try to be more strict with him, as you say, but mostly I want to make the game run in a way that is enjoyable for both of us.
As for the insults, I can take them. They're not exactly high-grade insults. It's not like I'm getting roasted here.
I have let him GM for me before and it was fun. I like the way he GMs. It's challenging. However, he's just been too tired to GM lately because he got a new job that has a lot of hours, and I can really only game with him once a week now, if that.
I will talk to him about all this, but idk how to begin.

Anonymouswizard
2017-05-29, 05:33 PM
First off, remember that his approach is a valid way to play the game, there are entire groups that essentially do nothing else (I've heard of one where everyone just tries to build a character who does the most damage, it sounds horrid to me but then again I literally picked up a game book because 'Celtic warriors and druids sounds cool').

The second thing to remember is that there is a 'right way to play'. This may sound weird, but it's simple: the right way to play is the way that the group as a whole can agree on. If there's one player that doesn't fit (say, a guy who optimises for damage in a group that optimises for character*) that can make the game worse for everybody.

Now we come to the simple fact: for 95% of RPG problems the solution is one of two things, sit down and talk it out with them or ask them to leave the group (ideally after talking to them). Solving it in-game only works if it's an in-game problem, and even then should ideally be done after discussing it with the player(s), annoyingly the D&D 3.5 DMG almost gives the opposite advice. If a player cares about the game enough that they want to stay most of the time they'll at least be willing to compromise to raise the general amount of fun in the group. My general experience is that if that isn't the case the group is better off without them, although I'd also always discuss whether or not the group wants to kick the member with the rest of the group.

Being passive aggressive (and that includes the 'tough love' suggestion above) almost never works, and it's best not to try it. Either politely ask him to turn it down, or have a nice long chat.

Having him run a short campaign might be a good idea, it can give a lot of insight on how he thinks about the game and whether you really want to keep him.

* What I do these days, I start with a concept and try to build it so it'll contribute. This once led me to spreading CP across three areas, one which had to be covered by another party member (I acted as backup), just to fit the concept.

Solaris
2017-05-29, 07:08 PM
Tie him to a rock with a viper dripping venom into his eyes until Ragnarok How much of a problem is his behavior? While you're certainly within your rights to tell him to knock off the sulking whenever things aren't going his way, is his sulking a regular thing or does it happen only once every few gaming sessions? Have you explained to him why you throw challenges at him? He may not grok that the point of playing a powerful character is to tackle powerful challenges, not to steamroll everything.

Darth Ultron
2017-05-29, 09:58 PM
Well, one of the best things you can do is just give him what he wants, of a sort. It is a bit more work for you, but it can be worth it. You'd basically be making two games: one for the group and one just for him. Think of his character as a special guest star.

First, just let him make any character.

Second, give him things to do that are part of the group gameplay...but separate. A nice, tough foe would seem to be what he would like. You can do things like have the foe want to fight Loki only in a fight of honor or such. If you really, really want to get him going, you can even make a good set up like:

The Awesome Cosmic Combat League (ACCL) is a group of folks that are fighting each other to find out who is the most bad-ass in the universe. With the prize of endless wishes or immortality or something like that. Each fight must be done ''with honor'' and ''witnessed'' .

So with that set up, you add it to the group game play. So the big bad evil is not the League Thug, it is (whatever) else.....but the League Thug is an aide, henchman, hireling or such. After all hanging out with a bad guy is a great way to find League Heroes.

Now the trick is to make the League Thug tough, but not too tough. Give them a weakness or otherwise let them loose a fight...so Loki can be the bad ass.

And for loot, you want something like each League Thug has a power crystal, that can do a ''+1'' to something...like say ''hit'' or ''damage''. And they can be added together, but only if you defeat the old owner in combat.

So see, it's Loki's dream come true.....added on to the game on the side. Just for him.

RazorChain
2017-05-29, 10:04 PM
I've been gaming with my friend for years now, and I have noticed a recurring problem. This friend, let's just call him Loki, is without doubt a severe power gamer. I don't want to quit playing with him because he is a good friend of mine, and I don't have a lot of other options for players right now. We don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to the game, I think.

We mostly play D&D. D&D is pretty much the only tabletop system he cares to play, unlike me. I have a wide variety of interests when it comes to tabletop RPGs. His narrow focus is but one of the problems here.

First off is the character creation. He designs his characters to be as powerful as possible, and is utterly repulsed by even the smallest of flaws. I wish he accepted that flaws can make a character much more interesting. But no, he must make his character a ridiculous badass in all circumstances. If his character gets a few low rolls and bad luck, he deems it a character problem rather than just bad luck. Then he decides he wants to make a new character because this one is "not working out." It is frustrating. Sometimes he makes characters to be suave, charming, handsome, smooth-talkers but he doesn't actually roleplay his character as such, even though I give him opportunities to do so.

I've had players that optimize and usually tht isn't a problem as usually most systems don't let a single character be a badass in all situations which leads to that characters specialize in combat, sneakiness, lore, face etc. But I understand it becomes hard to focus a story on a character if he is always making new and most players realize that sometimes you just have rotten luck. It seems the player in question doesn't have much interest in roleplaying but wants to play the combat minigame. I agree that flaws often flesh out characters just as much as their strength...I'm pretty sure that after last weekend of rpg marathon with my old group that the group remembers my kung fu master for his fortune cookie wisdom, his delusion that his chi power protects him from bullets and his weakness for blondes (which resulted in a huge complication after he was seduced by a blonde and a dangerous artifact was stolen from the group which we were supposed to keep safe).



The next is gameplay. Sometimes he can produce a great roleplaying moment or two, but really that's not what he plays the game for. He doesn't seem to care about storytelling or any of that stuff we call fluff. He just wants to be the best. He wants to dominate the world and get all the best loot all the time. Worst of all this selfish playstyle does not mesh well with me or the other players. He's simply out for himself, only doing favors for others if he can get something out of it. He constantly brags about how awesome his character is, often interrupting me in the middle of descriptions. When it comes to combat situations or any other type of conflict, it becomes a "Him vs. Me" "GM vs. Player" mentality and it pisses me off. And if I try to roleplay his enemies as smart, cunning, or powerful, or even just get a few good rolls, he complains and is sour, saying I am not being fair or that I am being a lame and/or a ****.

Have any of you dealt with a similar problem? I am not starting this thread just to have a whine and a moan, and I don't expect I can change the way he plays. I just want to figure out a way to GM for him that fits his playstyle better. I'm a flexible GM, but I'm no Superman.

Now this is the real problem, not working with the group, being selfish and trying to dominate everything. This can only be fixed with talking to him.

A) Explain to him that nobody likes a selfish prick. Being selfish is not doing him any favors with neither you or the rest of the group. When I was a teen we would usually just gank the selfish prick until he wisened up and realized that when he was backstabbing, stealing and not sharing we would just kill his character for betraying the group...again and again, if he wanted payment for doing stuff with the group we would just leave him out of the party and he had to roll a new character that had a reason to work with the us. In the end he wisened up as he realized he was being estranged for his behaviour.

B) Don't tolerate his rudeness. People that cut me off while I'm describing a scene get reprimanded, sometimes people get excited and I understand that but players that interrupt before I finish repeatedly get punished ingame. One fell into the hole he didn't see because I didn't get to finish my description "If you hadn't interrupted my description you would have known about the hole".
I usually have a rule that while playing we stay in character, use the character name not player names and take a break (smoke break for the smokers) and then people can chat about how awesome their characters are and other things. Calling me lame or other things would result in me asking the player to leave the table, I dedicate a lot of time to prep for session and I have no time or tolerance for people that don't show me respect. I respect my players and expect the same of them regardless if they are friends or aquintances. After I finish my session I dedicate 10 minutes where the players and me discuss things, I ask them what they thought about the session and for their feedback. If there was a situation which they thought was unfair then they can bring it up there and we can discuss it like mature adults and I am fully aware that I can and will make mistakes.

Psyren
2017-05-29, 11:14 PM
I'm not interested in kicking this guy out. That's just not an option for me. I will try to be more strict with him, as you say, but mostly I want to make the game run in a way that is enjoyable for both of us.
As for the insults, I can take them. They're not exactly high-grade insults. It's not like I'm getting roasted here.
I have let him GM for me before and it was fun. I like the way he GMs. It's challenging. However, he's just been too tired to GM lately because he got a new job that has a lot of hours, and I can really only game with him once a week now, if that.
I will talk to him about all this, but idk how to begin.

"You're a diligent player but unfortunately, your power level is putting you out of alignment with the rest of the group and my own efforts to run a balanced game for everyone. Here are your two options:

(1) You can play {weaker class} and optimize that up to be more powerful than it normally is, putting you more in line with everyone else, or
(2) You can tone it down a notch so you're not overshadowing everyone. If you can't do that, I'll make some adjustments to your character myself, but this can't continue as its currently going."

Also, remember the golden rule - no gaming > bad gaming. (i.e. it's not "kicking him out" if you simply stop running the game, so that should get his attention as a nuclear option.)

scalyfreak
2017-05-29, 11:21 PM
Also, remember the golden rule - no gaming > bad gaming. (i.e. it's not "kicking him out" if you simply stop running the game, so that should get his attention as a nuclear option.)

And a always with nuclear options, don't put it on the table unless you are fully prepared to follow through.

Jay R
2017-05-29, 11:42 PM
Run the game to make one power gamer and several other gamers happy.

Provide a single ogre captain for him to fight while the others are fighting the ogre. Send him down a trap door to an encounter that calls for the power PC, while the others have encounters that call for skills, social abilities, and role-playing.

It's not that hard to design encounters that please everybody, once you realize that you can do it at all.

GungHo
2017-05-30, 09:46 AM
You're likely going to have more success playing around this guy and letting him have his fun rather than trying to get him to adjust what he thinks is fun. Sometimes being the "bigger person" means tolerating the "little people", because you're not going to change them. Not ever.

Quertus
2017-05-30, 04:51 PM
I don't expect I can change the way he plays. I just want to figure out a way to GM for him that fits his playstyle better.

Ok, this I can work with.

What are the three terrors of the Fire Swamp specific issues you are having?

Loki is a power gamer.

Well, this isn't a problem. If anything, it's a good thing, because, as you said, it means that Loki is more focused than your other players. And it means that at least someone in the party has "competent" covered. Moving on...

Loki only likes to play D&D.

This may be a (partial) solution rather than a problem, if you're willing to be in / run more than one game.

I, at least, am less concerned about one thing having issues when I have multiple of that thing. And, as an added bonus, it may help give you some perspective on your problems.

Well, that's a potential answer for your sanity. For Loki, obviously the easy answer is to play D&D.

Loki wants his character to always be awesome.

This could actually be several different things; which of these is true determines what the correct course of action is.

Maybe Loki is actually more "fluffy" than your group, and is instantly turned off by Batman running the drug cartel, Superman murdering Batman for control of said cartel, or anything else that doesn't fit his "vision" of the character. You said that he can be turned off by a few bad rolls. Clearly, the answer is to find out what is central to his character, and pump his stats with custom items such that that core componency is beyond the reach of RNG. It's hard to have a few bad rolls when you've got +100 or higher in Tumble, Open Lock, Diplomacy, Hide, or whatever his character's shtick is.

Maybe Loki has a psychological aversion to failure. It's not uncommon, in a beer and pretzels game, to want the power fantasy of being a BDH. Failure kinda puts a kink in that power trip. Happily, since Loki is a power gamer, and the rest of your group is not, the solution is bloody simple: create challenges at the scale of the rest of the party. Loki's character should breeze right through them, while the rest of the party finds them an appropriate challenge. This is also handy in case Loki ever misses a session - which sounds likely, given what you said about his schedule.

Maybe Loki wants to be better than everyone else at everything. If that's the case, that's up to your group to discuss whether they want to play second fiddle, or dump him. If everyone wants to play second fiddle, well, there's plenty of GM horror stories floating around to explain how to run that game.

Loki keeps switching characters.

Although the above may help, for this one, I return to my old standby: discuss this with the player. Explain your issue to him, and ask Loki directly what it would take for him to keep running the same character through one of your games.

Your call as to whether to try adapting your game first, or talk to him first.

EDIT: or you could, you know, just plan on Loki switching characters, and not make him central to the plot...

Loki doesn't Roleplay as suave, charming, etc.

Um.... What?

I can only guess that you mean, "Loki is not suave, charming, etc, and so I penalize his characters for his player's lack of social skills".

If this is the case, the obvious answer is to rely on dice, and for you to Roleplay the NPCs as though Loki's character said something much more suave, charming, etc, than what Loki managed.

Loki is a selfish ****

I'm... not sure how to help you there. How do you teach teamwork to someone who's only in it for themselves?

Oh, right, you aren't trying to Mind Rape make Loki a better person, you're trying to make a game that will work for him. Hmmm...

Sorry, I only like cooperative games. I'm not the best person to ask for advice on making a game for an uncooperative player.

Well, it's borderline passive-aggressive, and probably bad in this context, but you could work with your other players to try to implement a version of my "show and tell" technique. I generally used it (as a player) on power gamers who didn't get the concept of toning it down. I'd pull out a character who was way more powerful than the one they'd brought, show them what power level I was capable of, and then ask if they'd care to tone it back to the level of the rest of the party. It was a very successful technique, at least in my hands. But, then, I'm quite good at being a ****.

So, to make that technique work in your group, you'd need to set up a scenario, and get everyone in the party to mimic his behavior (but cranked up to 11). Then Explain that this is how he comes off, and ask what it would take for him to play a character that actually cares about others / knows how to work in a team / etc. If you're at a good point for him to switch out characters, that's a good time and reason for him to do so. If not, you have to craft the scenario for his character to learn a lesson, perhaps even get a "teacher" out of the deal.

However, being called out in public by one player who is good at being a **** is not the same as having an intervention.

But how to run a game with a selfish **** without addressing the issue?

I guess running a game where he's constantly being paid for his services would be a good start. I'd also recommend a high-loot (Monte Haul, complete with cool custom items / artifacts), low-XP game, so that he gets lots of payment, but the party still powers up at close to the same rate due to their inherent power increasing more slowly.

EDIT: I realize I wasn't clear here. Contrary to my normal stance, I'm actually advocating house rules, and rather major ones at that. I'm advocating talking to your players and getting them on-board with the idea that you'd like to try giving out somewhere between half to maybe as low as a tenth of the RAW XP, balanced out by a drastic increase in WBL.

Loki responds badly to intelligent foes.

This depends a lot on how your intelligent foes act.

As Loki has the strongest character, it makes sense that the optimal choice is to take him out first. I can certainly see how playing intelligent foes as out to get him wouldn't endear this strategy to him! And if they're doing so with no way of knowing that Loki's character is the most powerful, well, then it's moved into the realm of bad DMing.

If your foes are cooperating with each other, in ways that make Loki's selfish heart uncomfortable, then clearly you need to make intelligent foes that he can relate to. Disarm, take the weapon, run away. Grab a single party member, run away, kill, loot the body, heal up, repeat. Etc.

Loki responds badly to intelligent foes.

A shock collar may be your only recourse here. Oh, sorry, you're not trying to train you dog player.

Well, it's not my thing, but I have seen a group that taunts each other in a good natured way. You say you're not having a problem with it, so moving on...

Loki interrupts you while you are describing a scene.

Again, shock collar.

More seriously, has he had other GMs? I've played in far too many games where the GM encouraged that kind of behavior, with rules like, "he who talks first, acts first", giving free surprise rounds to people who interrupted descriptions by attacking, etc.

Your best bet here is to, shock and surprise, discuss this with the player. Ask them why they do this, tell them what kind of behavior you would like to see... and make sure your game doesn't encourage unwanted behavior.

EDIT: to encourage the desired behavior, don't resolve anyone's actions until a) you have finished your description; b) you have gone around the table, and asked everyone what they are doing. Then narrate the scene, repeat. Or, if the actions would take different amounts of time, explicitly say "Jim would finish first - roll foo", narrate, get Jim's next action, repeat.

EDIT 2: this is if Loki is trying to interrupt your descriptions with actions. If he's trying to interrupt descriptions with requests for clarification, I'll just be a **** and respond that you fix this by getting better at giving descriptions. :smalltongue: That's sadly half serious: the better job you do of targeting your description to your audience, the less clarification they should need. Of course, Loki is not the only player there.


Currently I am also a player that loves to switch characters around because I never feel like the character really fits me.

Hmmm... I feel your pain. I need to "take a 20" on character creation in order to produce a character I'd like to play long-term.

So, maybe the solution is to run a bunch of mini-games (one- or two- or three-shots), and then give everyone the opportunity to pick one of the characters from those games to play in an ongoing campaign.

Me, I'd just be like, "can I just bring Quertus?" :smallwink:

Quertus
2017-06-07, 01:56 PM
So, any progress to report?

obryn
2017-06-07, 02:10 PM
I think you solved the problem within the original post.

He only wants to play D&D. You might be more comfortable without him and want to play games other than D&D.

So... Play games other than D&D. Ones that are less prone to powergaming. He might roll with it and change up his style, or he might drop out. Either way, sounds like a win to me.

denthor
2017-06-07, 03:51 PM
Once played with someone like Loki he ran a character till 7th got bored wanted to change characters the DM has a hard rule you switch you come in at x always 2-3 levels below where the group average is. He would have started at 3rd. I guess he should not have killed off the top end of group.

He argued he was the top and should not be penalized for changing characters. He continued to run his thief until he left two levels later after killing off the mid level of the party.

You could always start at 1st and build up that would end the rolling bad thing and Loki might learn that it is just a random dice game.

Then again you could just tell him it is a ramdom dice game sometimes Chaos does not favor you.

noob
2017-06-07, 04:18 PM
Well is he playing only T1 classes?
If he avoids playing T1 and T2 classes it probably means that his intent is not just "ha ha ha I will screw all the setting so much with simulacrums of grim jokers hitting random people with the effects of the deck of many things and an infinity of other universe breaking stuff the gm will put his notes on fire and kick me out of this game"
T3 and lower tier classes are very controllable: you can basically know what they might do(like decide to buy tons of wood and alchemist fire and start burning every house in the village or start to hit random people to steal them(not their equipment: steal the persons themselves))
You can even control where they go with a suitable hook.(covered in +5 swords: T3 adventurers love them)
I have a question: Do he understands the importance of team work?
Oh and he is under-optimized: the most powerful and unkillable adventurers are the ones who take all the flaws from the flaw list because each flaw give a bonus feat.
Like many guides says about flaws: If you gm allows one flaw take it .If your gm allows 5 flaw take them.

gooddragon1
2017-06-08, 11:32 AM
"ha ha ha I will screw all the setting so much with simulacrums of grim jokers hitting random people with the effects of the deck of many things ... the gm will put his notes on fire and kick me out of this game"

While this is completely evil and I would never play a character that would do this, it does sound very funny.

leugren
2017-06-08, 02:11 PM
You just need to be willing to walk away. I had a very similar situation and it involved my own brother. I love the guy to pieces, but I can't stand to play D&D with him. He is exactly like Loki. Like a victim of domestic abuse, I endured it for years. Recently, however, I finally got the courage to walk away and find a new group who share my interests in shared storytelling and character development. I have not regretted it one bit. I still hang out with my brother, of course--we just don't play D&D anymore!

Dragonrider99
2017-06-08, 02:25 PM
Been there. On both sides honestly. Talking as mentioned is the best way to deal with it. A previous group of mine actually split, because we had a few "power gamers" and some less so. I was in the power game side. Not really by choice. Just my personality likes to "min max". And before it came up in this group i didn't even really know about it. Thought i was just making the best choices and trying to be an asset to the group. Well I was proven wrong. I wouldn't say I was verbally "that guy" - bragging and whining... but still. Anyway, my point is that this guy may not even realize it. A nice discussion could solve it. Otherwise, in a subsequent group we had a house rule: characters killed by dm, your new character comes back at one level lower then everyone else, half xp to next lvl. So group is 8th, you die, come back at 7th halfway to 8th. If you suicide, you start at 1xp above minimum for 1 lvl back. (So 1xp over min for 7th in previous example) and if you retire, or just want a change - it's back at 2 lvls + half, of your previous character level, not group lvl. So you were 8th, now your 6th half to 7th. This put a hard stop to the character revolving door that some players liked to do. Eventually you would "catch up" or even out....: but being lower then everyone sucks. The final option may simply be to part ways. If resolution eludes you, and discussion or the above does not correct, time to part ways. It'll be better for the group long run.