Alternative magic systems

[tedcahill2]

Ok, I locked my original posts behind a spoiler, just in case anyone was curious.

As I've been thinking more about my idea I started trying to think about what it is about vancian casting that I wanted to fix/change (I don't think vancian magic is broken, so fix isn't quite accurate). I want casters to feel like they have magic, not sometimes, but all the time. That's how I think it should be. If you know how to cast a spell you shouldn't not be able to do it because you ran out of slots. Below I have stated what I feel my issues with vancian casting are and how they can be adapted to provide casters with more freedom, at a cost.

1) If you use magic, it shouldn't be a "sometimes" thing. Preparing spells suck. It sucks to know how to cast a spell, but can't do it on demand.

How to fix: make all classes spontaneous casters. Clerics and druids should both use the spell retrieval system that the spirit shaman uses, essential creating a list of spells known each day, but otherwise casting spontaneously from it. Wizards should only be allowed to attune to single spell book, which would allow them significantly more spells known than a sorcerer, but would still limit the number of spells they can know. A wizard can still scribe scrolls into his book, to add more spells known, but he would be limited to the number of pages in the book, so replacing some pages for a new spell may be needed. Also, the book must be in the wizards possession for him to cast any of the spells within it. (I'm open to ideas on how to make a wizard a spontaneous caster and still have them feel different than a sorcerer).

2) Magic is to binary, you can either cast the spell, because you have spell slots available, or you can't, because you don't. This bother's me because I don't find it to be believable or fun, even in the realm of a fantasy game, that spellcasters can effectively run out of batteries and need to recharge.

How to fix, keep the vancian spell slots. Instead of them being a limit on spells per day, make them a threshold to which a caster can safely cast spells to. If a caster wants to or needs to cast a spell for which they have no more spell slots for, they can, but the effort it takes to do so fatigues them, and deals them 2 (or maybe 1 point per spell level) points of ability damage to both constitution, and to their primary casting stat. (this ability damage cannot be mitigated, or blocked, and it can only be healed naturally.

On a day to day basis I can't see a situation where, most casters, would cast enough spells to deal themselves ability damage. During long dungeon runs or big boss fights the ability to not just 'run out of spells' would be invaluable, and would allow feats of heroism, like casting that one final spell but killing yourself in the process (due to the con damage).

I haven't had any luck finding a simple, non-vancian, magic system for arcane and divine casters. I like power points for psionics, but using the spell point system from unearthed arcana isn't really where I want to be.

I plan the limit spells in my game to exclude all of the game breaking stuff, no teleport, no polymorph, etc. Can anyone spot particular flaws in simply allowing casters to go all day?

My thoughts:

Vancian casters can cast any spells from their list of spells know. To do so they must succeed a caster level check of DC 10 + spell level. Each time they cast a spell successfully the DC for all subsequent checks increases by an amount equal to the level of spell cast.

At level 6 the DC increase based on spell level is reduced by 1 (so 1st level spells do not cause the DC to increase, and higher level spells increase the DC by less). At level 12 the DC increase reduction increases to 2, and at level 18 increases to 3. So by the time they're casting 9th level spells, they can easily cast 1 or 2 a day (each time increasing the DC by 6), buy in doing so they are greatly effecting their ability to cast any spells that day.

If you fail to cast a spell you take 1d8 non-lethal damage (this damage cannot be blocked even by things that normally block non-lethal damage). If you fail by more than 5 the damage becomes lethal damage.

Alternatively I was thinking failed checks would cause constitution damage.

Anyway, this was just a little brainstorm I thought of. Thoughts?
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The ability to cast spells, whether it's source is arcane or divine, requires an innate talent to manipulate magical energies. Those that have a talent for magic are constantly absorbing ambient magic that exists everywhere, taking it into their bodies and minds and then unleashing it in the form of spells. Magic becomes an integral part of magicians, and it can wreak havoc on their bodies when used recklessly. Anyone character with a caster level and a list of spells known can use this alternate casting system. This applies to all casters of divine and arcane magic, psionics are different and continue to use power points.

When casting a spell make a spell check (d20 + caster level) against a DC of 10 + spell level. Success means that you have cast the spell as normal. Failure means that you have failed to cast the spell. Failure by 5 of more means that you have suffered magic feedback, becoming fatigued, and taking 1 point of constitution damage, per spell level, as magic energy is ripped from your body. The constitution damage dealt by magic feedback cannot be healed, mitigated, or blocked in any way. Healing the ability damage requires 8 hours of rest followed by an hour of meditation or prayer, this draws magic energy back into your body replacing what was lost by the failed spell.

Each time you cast a spell, between rests, the likelihood of experiencing magic feedback increases. Every time you cast a spell the DC for all subsequent spell checks increases by 1 per level of the spell cast. So casting a 3rd level spell increases the DC for all other spells that day by 3. Starting at caster level 6 you may reduce all DC increases by 1. So a 1st level spell won't increase the DC, a 2nd level spell increases it by 1, and a 3rd level spells increases it by 2. At caster level 12 the reduction factor increases to 2, and at caster level 18 it increase to 3.

[JNAProductions]

Spheres of Power.

Also, your system is probably immensely abusable. I don't know how-but it probably is.

[tedcahill2]

Spheres of Power.

Also, your system is probably immensely abusable. I don't know how-but it probably is.

I didn't want to learn a whole new system with all new classes to make my idea work.

[JNAProductions]

I didn't want to learn a whole new system with all new classes to make my idea work.

It's about three pages, I think. You seem like a smart guy-I'm sure you can do it.

And if you're looking for a quick fix... I don't think you'll find one. The vancian system is complicated and dense. I highly doubt there's an easy way to rip it out and replace it.

[digiman619]

Seconding Spheres of Power. It really does fix 90+% of the problems Vancian has, and is absolutely free online (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/). The linked site also has about a half-dozen other non-Vancian systems for you to peruse if you find SoP isn't for you.

[Vaz]

Maybe just give all full casters the progression of a bard. It limits much of the abuses.

[flappeercraft]

I second what Vaz says. It would make casters way more balanced. I'm not sure if its enough, too little or too much but it at least seems fine to me. Although there is still Planar binding Efreets for Wish infinitely so you should just plain out remove planar binding or limit it in some way

[Mendicant]

Just pay close attention to the sorts of monsters you're throwing at them if you do this. Having stuff like restoration and flight come online way later is foing to cause problems if you're going with the base assumptions in the MM.

[tedcahill2]

I'm not doing this to limit their power. I want a magic system where you aren't bound by spell slots. Instead I want a system where using magic is dangerous, and while it can technically be used as often as the caster would like, the more they use their power, the more dangerous it becomes.

[Mendicant]

Well, it's hard to speak to the proposed system without playtesting, but 1d8 nonlethal doesn't sound like a real danger at higher levels but it'd be a huge chore in the first few. The caster level checks also sound like they'd slow the flow of gameplay significantly.

[digiman619]

I'm not doing this to limit their power. I want a magic system where you aren't bound by spell slots. Instead I want a system where using magic is dangerous, and while it can technically be used as often as the caster would like, the more they use their power, the more dangerous it becomes.

Then you want Spheres of Power and a casting tradition that includes the Draining Casting (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc39) and/or Painful Magic (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/casting-traditions#toc46) drawbacks. Seriously, it does pretty much exactly what you seem to want.

[Calthropstu]

I second what Vaz says. It would make casters way more balanced. I'm not sure if its enough, too little or too much but it at least seems fine to me. Although there is still Planar binding Efreets for Wish infinitely so you should just plain out remove planar binding or limit it in some way

Abusing planar binding is only possible with stupid gm's.
You summon a few genis to get your ability scores up... ok. They might be a bit annoyed, maybe one will do something like seek out your enemy and grant him 3 wishes but that's about it.
Chain summon them for large numbers of wishes? You get the entirety of geniekind after you and suddenly everything you do becomes nigh impossible.
Planar binding is easily the best way for a wizard to commit suicide.

[Kaleph]

I think you've already valid answers to your question, anyhow just yesterday I've red the arcane system fo WoW d20.

Basically you select a path (which enables you full proficiency with some spells), and you have a spellfail % (2% per spell level) with spells that don't belong to that path. You get also a -2 CL penalty in any case for those spells, so you get able to actually cast them with a 2 level delay. Finally, there's some other sort of bad consequence if you cast too many spell-levels per day (but I haven't figured out yet what).

[Manyasone]

I'm thirding Spheres of Power. Especially since the things you seem to want to get rid off are called 'advanced talents' in the system and those are at dm's discretion. Also the aforementioned site has a link called 'how to build a spherecaster' and that has actually everything you need to know

[Fizban]

So by non-vancian you actually mean the existing spells designed for vancian spell slots, but with some other limiting mechanic grafted on. The proposed ever-increasing skill check is quite similar to the much-hated Truenaming system, I'm surprised no one's mentioned it. A spell point or slot system that lets you exceed those by burning hp would be better, with the random roll determining if you just lose a bunch, or a ton.

The flaws in letting people cast everything infinitely should be obvious. All you have to do is imagine what would happen if your players were allowed to cast every spell you deemed "non-broken" as much as they want. I would expect a lot of things would suddenly look a lot more broken, but if you can design adventures around the PCs having infinite spells (always at max hp, always at max buffs, always blasting/controlling/save or dying at full power, always divining, always. . . ) then go ahead and have fun.

[EldritchWeaver]

I can only fourth Spheres of Power. Learning it is fast and easy, using it is easy, too. It can be easily adapted to not include the campaign changers or at least on a case-by-case basis (in your case, no Warp and Alteration spheres at all, but possible advanced talents from the Life sphere to give resurrection).

[Knaight]

The fundamental idea of some sort of increasing fatigue variable you roll against is solid. Tying it to skill checks is questionable - skill optimization has all sorts of weirdness to it that seriously damages the balance. A straight attribute check, save, or even caster level check would all work better. There's also enough ways to make damage negligible that I'd strongly recommend the eventual inclusion of save or die mechanics, which only show up once a whole bunch of spells have been cast.

Getting this system anywhere near the existing one in terms of spells that can reasonably be cast per level is a fairly hard problem, so I'd be inclined to use a variant. Keep the increasing fatigue variable, but add in a statistic that measures resistance to this fatigue (Drain Threshold or something). Have stats modify DT, then have a flat chance of backfire if over DT. With a low DT, you can then have a back fire that depends on how much over it you are - at DT it goes to minor damage, at 2xDT it goes to heavy damage, at 3xDT it goes to ability drain, at 4xDT it's a save or die.

[tedcahill2]

Thanks for all of the suggestions to use Spheres of Power, and while I agree it looks like a great system, and would otherwise do what I want it to, I don't want to use it.

What I want is a way to utilize my large collections of D&D books, with all the classes and spells and PrC's, but remove vancian casting.

My group does not optimize, so I'm not worried about power level of some spells. I still want a semblance of vancian spell slots too, in the sense that a caster can safely cast their highest level spells a few times per day. But after casting their higher level spells I want them to risk damaging themselves if they continue trying to use their highest level spells.

I want casters to be able to do what they do on command, whenever they want to. But I want them to understand and manage the risk involved in casting spells.

Knaight, I plan to tie it to a caster level check, because it favors those that focus on casting vs those that only dabble in it.

So Spheres of Power aside are their any other suggestions to my OP?

[Gildedragon]

Edit NVM. More careful read.

Your system sounds kinda like a fixed truenaming. You could look up truenamer fixes and use that.

[tedcahill2]

Edit NVM. More careful read.

Your system sounds kinda like a fixed truenaming. You could look up truenamer fixes and use that.

Will do. I'm not to familiar with truenaming.

[Mehangel]

I know you said that you aren't interested in using Spheres of Power, but I just wanted to say that I fifth the suggestion to use it.

[Jormengand]

"I know you don't want to do X, but do X." Sigh. How much are you all paid to advertise SoP?

To the original post, if you're making it an increase for each individual spell or each individual spell level, then it means you get a lot of castings of each spell you can use. If you're making it overall, you get very few castings of spells in total. You should probably try to balance somewhere between those two. Maybe have the original CL check be 10+(level*2), so each new level of spells is just as hard to use it when you get it as the previous one was when you got that.

If you make the drawback meaningful (1d8 damage is meaningful for the first few levels, then becomes less meaningful) you don't need to do anything else - constitution damage is probably the best way to make it meaningful at all levels. This ends up meaning that you can cast spells of eventually up to fifth level with no drawback, but casting your ninth-level spells will always carry a danger to it. You might make it 10+(level*3) so that the DCs for 4th- and 5th-level spells actually remain meaningful until epic.

[digiman619]

...You think Vancian is busted, so your solution is to give sorcerers and favored souls infinite spells known? How will that remotely fix your problem?

EDIT: Oh, and Jormengand? The reason that we keep pushing SoP is that it does exactly what he's asking for, while his quicky fix does not.

[Gildedragon]

Have you checked out the Recharge times variant from UA?
It gives effectively infinite spells (within the prepared/known repertoire) but puts a cool-down time on them.
Only the SRD spells are covered but there's guidelines for adapting others

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tying it to Caster Level is a good move; Truenaming is borked because it's tied to skill checks, which are hilariously variable-- you can be at level+stat+3, and you can be at ten times that. CL is much harder; if you add a new rule that says it can never exceed your HD, you should cut out even the small bits. So... your basic idea isn't bad, though the numbers need crunching.

That 1d8 flat nonlethal damage is bad, though. At 1st level, there's about a 20% chance a wizard will knock themself out the first time they try to cast a spell (assuming ~6 HP); at higher levels you won't even notice it. Con damage is possibly better, but any way you slice it the consequence is going to be "damnit, I burn a charge on this wand" pretty quickly. Then again, I'd hesitate to be too punitive; you do need casters to actually cast spells. The action loss is probably enough in-combat.


It's about three pages, I think. You seem like a smart guy-I'm sure you can do it.

And if you're looking for a quick fix... I don't think you'll find one. The vancian system is complicated and dense. I highly doubt there's an easy way to rip it out and replace it.
Err, no. The base rules may only be about three pages, but you're closer to three hundred pages of new classes and feats and sphere/talent/whatever write-ups and all. Even if the basics are easy to pick up, you're talking a hell of a lot of work in terms of rebuilding system mastery to build characters and get comfortable with all of it.

[Schattenbach]

Using BESM D20/Anime D20 stuff (the BESM D20/Anime D20 SRD contains pretty much all the rules one needs and most things required to adapt it to DnD3.5) might solve your problems to some degree. i.e. adapting Dynamic Sorcery into DnD3.5 and convert the spells per day into Energy Points to fuel Dynamic Sorcery (which, depending on how you adapt it, could work like some somewhat less unbalanced version of spell points).

[tedcahill2]

...You think Vancian is busted, so your solution is to give sorcerers and favored souls infinite spells known? How will that remotely fix your problem?

EDIT: Oh, and Jormengand? The reason that we keep pushing SoP is that it does exactly what he's asking for, while his quicky fix does not.

I know that spheres does what I want. But it requires that I throw out the dozens of books I own full of classes and spells and various things that I simply don't want to do.

[JNAProductions]

I know that spheres does what I want. But it requires that I throw out the dozens of books I own full of classes and spells and various things that I simply don't want to do.

The issue is, I don't think there's any way to completely revamp the system WITHOUT having to throw out your books (metaphorically speaking).

More power to you if you find a way, but I don't think it's gonna happen.

[digiman619]

I know that spheres does what I want. But it requires that I throw out the dozens of books I own full of classes and spells and various things that I simply don't want to do.

Then you might be interested in rituals (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/rituals), which lets you import Vancian-style spells back into the system.

[EldritchWeaver]

Then you might be interested in rituals (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/rituals), which lets you import Vancian-style spells back into the system.

Spell Dabbler (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc49) and Spell Adapt (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc48) can also help. Maybe they are even free bonus feats, if OP wants to ensure easy access.

[tedcahill2]

After more brainstorming I completely changed my original post. Please reread it if you haven't seen the update.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

You know that existing caster classes and spells are compatible with Spheres of Power, right? You don't have to "throw out" anything but the casting mechanics. The old spells are unchanged but referred to as "spellcrafted" effects, still available through finding or researching them. Most of the spellcasting classes in base PF have conversions and those that don't are easy to translate.

[Jormengand]

"Hey guys, is there a way to do X without Spheres of Power?"
"Have you tried Spheres of Power?"
"I'd rather not use Spheres of Power."
"I'm gonna second Spheres of Power"
"I don't want to have to learn Spheres of Power."
"You should totally use Spheres of Power!"
"No, I know Spheres of Power is good but I don't want to use it."
"Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Spheres of Power?"

[Dr_Dinosaur]

"Hey guys, is there a way to do X without Spheres of Power?"
"Have you tried Spheres of Power?"
"I'd rather not use Spheres of Power."
"I'm gonna second Spheres of Power"
"I don't want to have to learn Spheres of Power."
"You should totally use Spheres of Power!"
"No, I know Spheres of Power is good but I don't want to use it."
"Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Spheres of Power?"

OP has brought up perceived problems with SoP, and we've been explaining how it works around most of them. You're the only one getting upset here

[Vaz]

How does him ridiculing your suggestions equate to being upset?

[tedcahill2]

OP has brought up perceived problems with SoP, and we've been explaining how it works around most of them. You're the only one getting upset here

Like I said, I appreciate the suggestion, but I would rather pursue this in the direction of my original post. There are 8 people in my group, of which only maybe 2 of us would even try to grasp SoP. The others would likely all opt for mundanes if only to avoid learning anything new. It's a pretty casual group.

[JNAProductions]

How does him ridiculing your suggestions equate to being upset?

Jor is not a him.

[digiman619]

"Hey guys, is there a way to do X without Spheres of Power?"
"Have you tried Spheres of Power?"
"I'd rather not use Spheres of Power."
"I'm gonna second Spheres of Power"
"I don't want to have to learn Spheres of Power."
"You should totally use Spheres of Power!"
"No, I know Spheres of Power is good but I don't want to use it."
"Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour Spheres of Power?"

"I'm mad that my tricycle doesn't go 70 MPH"
"Well, I've got this motorcycle..."
"No, I don't want to use one of those; I think I'll fix the problem by attaching a jet engine to the trike. That's clearly the easier and more practical solution"

If you want to be hyperbolic, we can be too.

[Gildedragon]

Why not let wizards use the same system as clerics? "Prep" A "spells studied" list daily?

[Calthropstu]

"I'm mad that my tricycle doesn't go 70 MPH"
"Well, I've got this motorcycle..."
"No, I don't want to use one of those; I think I'll fix the problem by attaching a jet engine to the trike. That's clearly the easier and more practical solution"

If you want to be hyperbolic, we can be too.

Your hyperbole is wholly inaccurate. The op looked at spheres of power, and decided it wasn't for him or his group. And none of you are respecting that. Jor was pointing that out, and I am doing so as well though more bluntly.

To be fair, this thread should probably be moved into homebrew at this point since the op has discarded and or written off all of the written rules options, but he has that prerogative. That's the best thing about dnd/pf. Don't like a rule? Change it.

He wants his characters riding jet powered tricycles, he can.

[digiman619]

Your hyperbole is wholly inaccurate. The op looked at spheres of power, and decided it wasn't for him or his group. And none of you are respecting that. Jor was pointing that out, and I am doing so as well though more bluntly.

To be fair, this thread should probably be moved into homebrew at this point since the op has discarded and or written off all of the written rules options, but he has that prerogative. That's the best thing about dnd/pf. Don't like a rule? Change it.

He wants his characters riding jet powered tricycles, he can.

You know what? You're right. The OP can run their game in whatever manner they want. I think the problem with Vancian casting is way deeper than they'd like to admit, so I don't think his quick fix will work, To use another metaphor, Vancian is a gangrenous limb, and his fix is applying a tourniquet to it. Only by getting rid of it can the game be saved.

But in the end, you're right. It's not my game, and his rule fixes aren't badwrongfun. I just think that SoP meets every one of his criteria, and he's refusing to admit to sunk costs. I hope he gets a fun game, regardless of the rules he uses.

[Jormengand]

To be fair, Digiman, very few threads about vancian casting are complete without you popping up and suggesting Spheres of Power as an alternative, irrespective of the circumstances, so you can imagine that people might get a little wary of it eventually.

[tedcahill2]

I just think that SoP meets every one of his criteria, and he's refusing to admit to sunk costs. I hope he gets a fun game, regardless of the rules he uses.

I have actually agreed many times, and stated that I understand Sphere's of power does what I'm looking for. I also said that I wasn't interested in it for this particular application, and maybe more importantly, my players wouldn't be interested.

[digiman619]

To be fair, Digiman, very few threads about vancian casting are complete without you popping up and suggesting Spheres of Power as an alternative, irrespective of the circumstances, so you can imagine that people might get a little wary of it eventually.
To be equally fair, though, a) I have never brought SoP up when someone expressed their satisfaction with Vancain casting, and b) I can recall at least a half-dozen cases where someone complained about being dissatisfied with Vancian only to have thier interest in the game revitalized when introduced to the system.


I have actually agreed many times, and stated that I understand Sphere's of power does what I'm looking for. I also said that I wasn't interested in it for this particular application, and maybe more importantly, my players wouldn't be interested.
That's fair, and I said as much in my last post. Your players not being interested in a new system is a perfectly valid concern and good reason not to use a new system, so I will officially drop my suggestion. It's also the first time you've brought them up in any way, shape or form, so I can't help but feel that you're using them as an excuse.

[tedcahill2]

To be equally fair, though, a) I have never brought SoP up when someone expressed their satisfaction with Vancain casting, and b) I can recall at least a half-dozen cases where someone complained about being dissatisfied with Vancian only to have thier interest in the game revitalized when introduced to the system.


That's fair, and I said as much in my last post. Your players not being interested in a new system is a perfectly valid concern and good reason not to use a new system, so I will officially drop my suggestion. It's also the first time you've brought them up in any way, shape or form, so I can't help but feel that you're using them as an excuse.

Let me ask a follow up about spheres of power though. Did someone say that all the spells from D&D can still be used? EDIT: clever hiding that little jab in there by making the text white. I didn't bring it up because it wasn't, at first, relevant to my post. But as the suggestions kept coming I kept having to come up with reason I didn't want to use SoP.

[EldritchWeaver]

Let me ask a follow up about spheres of power though. Did someone say that all the spells from D&D can still be used?

Yes. See below quotes.


Then you might be interested in rituals (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/rituals), which lets you import Vancian-style spells back into the system.


Spell Dabbler (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc49) and Spell Adapt (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/general-feats#toc48) can also help. Maybe they are even free bonus feats, if OP wants to ensure easy access.

Personally, if your reason to use SoP is to remove the Tier 1/2 power of Vancian casting, I would require explicitly whitelisting spells before allowing them in the game.

[tedcahill2]

Yes. See below quotes.





Personally, if your reason to use SoP is to remove the Tier 1/2 power of Vancian casting, I would require explicitly whitelisting spells before allowing them in the game.

I have no issue with the power level of vancian casting or tier 1/2 casters. My group never, ever, optimizes (very casual group). I just want magic to be something that, if you know how to do it, you can always do it. That's all. I just don't like the idea that a wizard can go from shooting fireballs to, "Damn, I'm out of fireballs." Instead I wanted something where the wizard could say, "Damn I'm running low of magic, I can still cast this fireball, but it's really going to hurt me." and he does, and he takes constitution damage (or something) for magically exerting himself.

[Elderand]

I have no issue with the power level of vancian casting or tier 1/2 casters. My group never, ever, optimizes (very casual group). I just want magic to be something that, if you know how to do it, you can always do it. That's all. I just don't like the idea that a wizard can go from shooting fireballs to, "Damn, I'm out of fireballs." Instead I wanted something where the wizard could say, "Damn I'm running low of magic, I can still cast this fireball, but it's really going to hurt me." and he does, and he takes constitution damage (or something) for magically exerting himself.

Well, in that case, here's a quick and dirty thing you can do.

Convert spell slot into spellpoints, and when you run out of spellpoints, you use HP instead.

[Calthropstu]

I have no issue with the power level of vancian casting or tier 1/2 casters. My group never, ever, optimizes (very casual group). I just want magic to be something that, if you know how to do it, you can always do it. That's all. I just don't like the idea that a wizard can go from shooting fireballs to, "Damn, I'm out of fireballs." Instead I wanted something where the wizard could say, "Damn I'm running low of magic, I can still cast this fireball, but it's really going to hurt me." and he does, and he takes constitution damage (or something) for magically exerting himself.

Yeah, I kind of like that premise myself. Even for melee characters. I was discussing making a fatigue vs hp split system yesterday with my group. Interesting convo. I want a system where attacks and actions cost/injure your fatigue primarily.

Ever watch a sword fight? You don't "take damage and keep going." You get stabbed and you fall over. What leads to that stab is a missed step, a dropped guard, a botched parry. The more training, the more skill, the more endurance you have the less likely you are to take that blow. Yes, you can take a hit in a nonvital place and survive, maybe even keep fighting. But generally speaking the fight is all but over at that point. Same with spells. That magic missile is coming at you, you twist and dodge sharply causing it to hit the wall behind you but causing you to have to lose position, and dodging gets tiring.
You get a real solid hit on someone, they are dead, or as good as.

[tedcahill2]

Yeah, I kind of like that premise myself. Even for melee characters. I was discussing making a fatigue vs hp split system yesterday with my group. Interesting convo. I want a system where attacks and actions cost/injure your fatigue primarily.

Ever watch a sword fight? You don't "take damage and keep going." You get stabbed and you fall over. What leads to that stab is a missed step, a dropped guard, a botched parry. The more training, the more skill, the more endurance you have the less likely you are to take that blow. Yes, you can take a hit in a nonvital place and survive, maybe even keep fighting. But generally speaking the fight is all but over at that point. Same with spells. That magic missile is coming at you, you twist and dodge sharply causing it to hit the wall behind you but causing you to have to lose position, and dodging gets tiring.
You get a real solid hit on someone, they are dead, or as good as.
Sounds like you would like the vitality/wounds system from unearthed arcana. Hit points becomes your ability to withstand damage aka your stamina. After you run out of vitality you take wounds, you have a number of wounds equal to your con. You don't die until your wounds are depleted.

Critical hits in that system bypass vitality and deal damage directly to wounds.

[zergling.exe]

It's also the first time you've brought them up in any way, shape or form, so I can't help but feel that you're using them as an excuse.

Except OP did bring up the other players in their previous post:

There are 8 people in my group, of which only maybe 2 of us would even try to grasp SoP. The others would likely all opt for mundanes if only to avoid learning anything new. It's a pretty casual group.

[digiman619]

Except OP did bring up the other players in their previous post:

...crap, you're right. I humbly apologize for my snide comment. I was wrong.

[Gildedragon]

Well, in that case, here's a quick and dirty thing you can do.

Convert spell slot into spellpoints, and when you run out of spellpoints, you use HP instead.

There's the Vitalizing Spellpoints variant from UA

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's the Vitalizing Spellpoints variant from UA
Eh, sort of? Vitalizing Spellpoints is mostly "when you've cast a lot of spells, you become fatigued."

Elderand's idea is probably the right direction for you, tedcahill2. Though having spell points be directly interchangeable with hit points might be too much, even at low-op. Instead, perhaps you could have them reduce your total hit points, with the reduction coming back slowly through natural healing only? That makes it a relatively dangerous course of action, since most of the normal healing mechanisms won't work.

(Be careful using the spell point variant from the SRD; the basic numbers are probably okay, but both the boost to prepared casting and the specifically-targetted hit to direct damage spells are wholly unnecessary and bad for the game as a whole)

You could also perhaps use the Recharge Magic variant with an option to take damage to recharge a slot faster.

[Calthropstu]

Eh, sort of? Vitalizing Spellpoints is mostly "when you've cast a lot of spells, you become fatigued."

Elderand's idea is probably the right direction for you, tedcahill2. Though having spell points be directly interchangeable with hit points might be too much, even at low-op. Instead, perhaps you could have them reduce your total hit points, with the reduction coming back slowly through natural healing only? That makes it a relatively dangerous course of action, since most of the normal healing mechanisms won't work.

(Be careful using the spell point variant from the SRD; the basic numbers are probably okay, but both the boost to prepared casting and the specifically-targetted hit to direct damage spells are wholly unnecessary and bad for the game as a whole)

You could also perhaps use the Recharge Magic variant with an option to take damage to recharge a slot faster.

He could do it similar to the kinetecist's burn from pf.

[Scots Dragon]

You could adapt some of the system used in Green Ronin's Thieves World magic system, which uses a mana-threshold system where you build up mana over time to cast a given spell, with lower level spells being easier to cast and higher level spells taking a much higher amount of power. Basically you could allow players to use that system to cast a spell without expending a slot, though with failure resulting in Terrible Things.

[thorr-kan]

I'm intrigued by trying to graft the spirit shaman spell fetching system onto clerics and wizards. I remember something similar for the first Dragon Magazine attempt at the sha'ir. I didn't like it because it change the class too much from it's 2ED roots (and I'm an Al-Qadim fanboy).

But thinking about the mechanic and your stated goal, I'm intrigued. Would you use this only for prepared casters or for all casters? I'd use it for just prepared casters. I'd give each prepared class the equivalent of wizard's spellbook.

Archivist - prayerbook
Cleric - holy symbol or some relic of the faith
Witch - steal a page from Pathfinder: a familiar
Wizard - spellbook

[tedcahill2]

I'm intrigued by trying to graft the spirit shaman spell fetching system onto clerics and wizards. I remember something similar for the first Dragon Magazine attempt at the sha'ir. I didn't like it because it change the class too much from it's 2ED roots (and I'm an Al-Qadim fanboy).

But thinking about the mechanic and your stated goal, I'm intrigued. Would you use this only for prepared casters or for all casters? I'd use it for just prepared casters. I'd give each prepared class the equivalent of wizard's spellbook.

Archivist - prayerbook
Cleric - holy symbol or some relic of the faith
Witch - steal a page from Pathfinder: a familiar
Wizard - spellbook

Not sure what you mean by giving a cleric a holy symbol as a spell book. My idea was to have all prepared casters prepare a list of spells each day (which would be smaller than their list of spells cast per day) like the spirit shaman and its spell retrieval.

I'm still brainstorming ways to make the wizard/archivist still feel more unique. One idea was to give the wizard/archivist a number of "spell triggers" equal to their class level + primary casting stat. Unlike spell retrieval, which dictates how many spells of each level they are able to prepare, spell triggers would allow any spell of any level to be queued up. So a level 5 wizard could, for whatever reason, use all of his spell triggers on 2nd level spells. By not preparing any level 1 spell triggers they would thus bar themselves from casting level one spells.

On the other hand, the more realistic way this would be used, is a wizard could use one spell trigger on magic missile, and the rest of level 2 and 3 spells. By doing this he's limiting himself to only casting magic missile in his first level spell slots, but he has more freedom to queue up higher level spell triggers for more options with his higher level spell slots.

[Vaz]

Jor is not a him.

Him/Her/Attack Helicopter.

[Psyren]

I would use PF's Simplified Spellcasting variant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/simplified-spellcasting/) and just jack up the pool value so high that it is functionally unlimited. You're still tracking spell slots, but only for the 2-3 most powerful spell levels (which is easy to do), and everything below that can be functionally at will. This should also be fully compatible with all the 3.5 spellcasters that OP doesn't want to toss or modify.

[JNAProductions]

Vaz... That's just rude. Please be respectful.

On topic, the Simplified Variant seems pretty good for the OP. Not so much for regular play, but here, yis.

[Jormengand]

Him/Her/Attack Helicopter.

Things trans people don't do:
- Describe themselves as "Attack helicopters".
- Say "Did you just assume my gender?"
Things cis people do:
- Those.

Alternatively, you could just not derail the thread any more than the Church of the Holy Sphere of Power has already done so with your tired, bored meme that was never funny, and wouldn't still be funny even if it ever had been.

[Afgncaap5]

As much as I love SoP, if a person unfamiliar with the system who has players who don't want it and who also wants to mostly use a decent collection of 3.5 books, then I can definitely understand not wanting to use Spheres of Power.

I mean, Pathfinder is balanced with higher power levels in a number of significant ways that makes some of its material out of place in certain 3.5 games. I mean, I use SoP in my 3.5 games, but I have a number of caveats, provisos, and alterations to the rules to make it work (case in point: players with the Destruction sphere frankly do too much damage for the games I run, especially compared to the newer players who don't know why their archer even shows up at the table sometimes. As such, I make the Destructive Blast cost more to play and created a weaker 0-sp option for it.)

And that's a change I make after really digging into Spheres of Power, figuring out how a lot of it ticks, and homebrewing some stuff. And as much as I love homebrew, it isn't right for some tables.


I'm still brainstorming ways to make the wizard/archivist still feel more unique. One idea was to give the wizard/archivist a number of "spell triggers" equal to their class level + primary casting stat. Unlike spell retrieval, which dictates how many spells of each level they are able to prepare, spell triggers would allow any spell of any level to be queued up. So a level 5 wizard could, for whatever reason, use all of his spell triggers on 2nd level spells. By not preparing any level 1 spell triggers they would thus bar themselves from casting level one spells.

On the other hand, the more realistic way this would be used, is a wizard could use one spell trigger on magic missile, and the rest of level 2 and 3 spells. By doing this he's limiting himself to only casting magic missile in his first level spell slots, but he has more freedom to queue up higher level spell triggers for more options with his higher level spell slots.

I like the sound of all of this. In some ways, it reminds me of a few of the 5th edition classes. Not the same, of course, but then again I've only really skimmed 5e casting rules.

[Calthropstu]

Things trans people don't do:
- Describe themselves as "Attack helicopters".
- Say "Did you just assume my gender?"
Things cis people do:
- Those.

Alternatively, you could just not derail the thread any more than the Church of the Holy Sphere of Power has already done so with your tired, bored meme that was never funny, and wouldn't still be funny even if it ever had been.

I had never heard of this meme before and had to look it up. Have to admit it made me chuckle.

[thorr-kan]

Not sure what you mean by giving a cleric a holy symbol as a spell book. My idea was to have all prepared casters prepare a list of spells each day (which would be smaller than their list of spells cast per day) like the spirit shaman and its spell retrieval.
The spirit shaman's spell retrieval is fluffed as negotiating with spirits. You've mentioned wizard's using a spellbook in a similar fashion. I was extending that to other prepared spell casters.

[VisitingDaGulag]

1) I like preparing spells. I like metamagic. Spontaneous casting is bad.

2) I like it when casters aren't machine guns and run out of juice. 3e is already caster edition.

3) You have fixed nothing.

[Vaz]

Things trans people don't do:
- Describe themselves as "Attack helicopters".
- Say "Did you just assume my gender?"
Things cis people do:
- Those.

Alternatively, you could just not derail the thread any more than the Church of the Holy Sphere of Power has already done so with your tired, bored meme that was never funny, and wouldn't still be funny even if it ever had been.

Apologies. Identify how you identify. My post appears to have been misconstrued and no insult was intended.

I don't care if you are male, female, or attack helicopter, your point was salient.

Edit; my trans cousin calls himself an attavk helicopter. Are you calling him non trans, then? Honestly, thought that if anyone's going to upset over pronouns, regardless of how derailing that may be, you'd be appreciative of how others identify. Shame on you.

[EldritchWeaver]

1) I like preparing spells. I like metamagic. Spontaneous casting is bad.

2) I like it when casters aren't machine guns and run out of juice. 3e is already caster edition.

3) You have fixed nothing.

Are you complaining about that someone who isn't your GM wants to introduce houserules you don't like?

[Psyren]

*snip*

I would drop the non-apology and quit while you're behind.



I'm still brainstorming ways to make the wizard/archivist still feel more unique. One idea was to give the wizard/archivist a number of "spell triggers" equal to their class level + primary casting stat. Unlike spell retrieval, which dictates how many spells of each level they are able to prepare, spell triggers would allow any spell of any level to be queued up. So a level 5 wizard could, for whatever reason, use all of his spell triggers on 2nd level spells. By not preparing any level 1 spell triggers they would thus bar themselves from casting level one spells.

All you're doing here is making metamagic mandatory. The 5th-level wizard in your example would still queue up all 2nd-level spells, but if he wanted to use a 1st-level spell he would just make it Silent instead. And even if you rule that the wizards can't do that, the sorcerers definitely could.

[Jormengand]

I would drop the non-apology and quit while you're behind.

See I was gonna say a thing, but then you said the thing. It was a good thing.

(Although incidentally, the answer to Vaz's question is that yes, anyone who calls themself an attack helicopter is pretty much definitely not actually trans, because it's always been a thing that people do to mock trans people, not because they are them. Asking me to be respectful of people who are devoting that much energy to being disrespectful towards me is foolish at best.)



I don't see what problem the "Spell triggers" thing is trying to solve. At least the caster level check vs con damage actually addresses the issue you're trying to address, but the spell triggers thing is, what, just trying to make wizards and archivists funky? Wizards and archivists are already funky; they change what spells they know based on a spellbook, and in the archivist's case they don't even have to prepare archivist spells.