3.5 Psionics

[haplot]

Just curious as to what peoples thoughts are about introducing psionics into a game.

Thinking of using the rules that make psionics and magic similiar enough so that one kind can dispel the other.

I'm going to be allowing characters to take levels in psionic classes but the players have never used the system before and one of my bad guys has psionic powers, hence why im allowing them as class levels.

Help on subject is greatly appreciated.

[OldTrees1]

I suspect it will be an enjoyable addition to your table.

Remember that you cannot spend more power points on a power than your manifester level.

I would avoid the Linked Power feat.

[tyckspoon]

Mechanically, they're pretty solid; if you haven't experienced issues with spellcasters, you'll be fine with psionics. If you have experienced issues with spellcasters, psionics are actually a little less dangerous in certain ways (Psionics don't have really good equivalents to Summons and Calling effects, for example.) Just remember the one really, really big rule - you can't spend more PP than your manifester level on any one thing. A level 1 Psion doesn't get to throw a 5d6 Energy Ray any more than a level 1 Wizard casts a 5d4 Burning Hands. And use full transparency; psionics and magic play together best when they play together. Making them completely separate forms of supernatural power that don't interact with each other is the kind of thing you decide as a base factor of an entire setting, IMO - transparency should be the default for the more usual fantasy kitchen-sink of a typical D&D world.

Some people have a really, really negative reaction to the default fluff of psionics. That's something to watch out for in your players. But rules-wise, there's nothing really wrong with 3.5's psionics.

[haplot]

Cheers for the heads up about max points on one power being your manifester level. keep forgetting that rule :D

Linked Power feat?

One of the players is new ish to game, but has experience with magic, so Im kinda hoping hes going to be okay with psionics too

[logic_error]

Cheers for the heads up about max points on one power being your manifester level. keep forgetting that rule :D

Linked Power feat?

Ability to fire one power on the trigger of another by paying the cost of the next one. Once again, remember the maximum power point rule and the fact this is generally used for Buffing fast. If it's used for anything else, either nerf it a bit or ban it if it gets too much. But don't forget, wizards get celerity.

[haplot]

Ahh rightie, yeah, will keep the players away from that i think :D

Cheers for the support

[digiman619]

Psionics can be a lot of fun (though I, too, shall reiterate that you cannot spend more power points on any given spell than your manifester level; 90+% of the problems people have with psionics is that they ignore/forget that rule), though if you run into problems with the flavor, you can re-fluff them as runes or whatnot.

One other side note, if you want to include the Soulknife (who doesn't manifest, so I'd understand if you dropped it), please use the PF update (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/). It's actually a fun, viable class rather than the mess the 3.5 one was.

[logic_error]

Also, very importantly remember that most of the incredible sounding things in Psionics require you to expend your focus. Generally, the manifester would have 2 to 3 foci in toto PER encounter. You can count those and keep them under control to check their abuse.

My personal feeling is that the Psionics are really well balanced and fun especially with psionic magic transperency rules.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One thing to keep in mind about psionics is that they inherently have a bit more nova ability than conventional casting-- even without all the various action-economy manipulating options (and there are a lot, though I wouldn't worry too much with new players), there's nothing stopping a Psion from tossing all their power points into max-level powers. At the same time, their low-level damage powers don't automatically scale, so that can hurt your endurance if you're not careful. It's not a huge deal, but it's something to keep in mind if you have a lot of very long or very short adventuring days.

The base classes are pretty widely varied in terms of usability. The Psion, Psychic Warrior, Ardent*, and Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) are all pretty excellent, and the Lurk* has some quirks but is quite solid as well. The Soulknife and Divine Mind* are both painfully weak, and the Wilder has major flaws vis-a-vis "not really having any powers known" and "their main schtick is unnecessarily punitive." If you're looking for tweaks...

The Soulknife really needs full BAB, and the the 5th level abilities (Free Draw and Shape Mind Blade) should probably be part of the base Mind Blade effect. Maybe let Psychic Strike charge as a swift action and shift Multiple Throw down to 5th level to fill that gap. Or you could make the whole thing a Psychic Warrior ACF, replacing that class' bonus feats with the Soulknife class features wholesale.
The Divine Mind is an easy enough fix; give it a Psychic Warrior's manifesting progression, and maybe an extra mantle at 1st or 2nd just so you have a few more choices, and you're good to go.
The Wilder should probably have its powers known approximately doubled (leaving ~22 known vs the Psion's 36) and Psychic Enervation weakened somehow-- flat-footed until the start of their next turn and lose power points equal to the amount surged for, or something to that effect.



*Complete Psionic

[Waker]

If people have issues with the fluff for psionics, just point out that the description for a psion is almost identical to a sorcerer (both have inherent powers that manifests during puberty...) Full transparency for the interaction between magic/psionics is the default as has been said. If people have a dislike for the manifestations when people use powers, consider changing the visuals to something such as glyphs (think Illumians).

[haplot]

The character im mainly suggesting it for is currently a rogue, and have explained it plays more like a sorcerer than a wizard.

Turns out the player is wanting to add magic as hes more familiar with the rule set for it.

Thanks for your help

[haplot]

After sleeping on it, and reading more on psionics the player has now decided to go rogue /psion instead of wizard.

Only thing is, my lovely other half is convinced that even with using the magic and psionics is the essentially the same thing, theres a penalty on saves and dispelling.

I thought this just applied if using the variant that they were different.

Can anyone give me a page reference for clarification of this please?

Many thanks in advance.

[Elderand]

Page 55 of the expanded psionic handbook

Page 65 for the psionic is different variant and the vaian within than variant that instead of making dispel useless gives it a penalty. variantception!

[haplot]

Ahh found it

Thank you, you are a diamond

[LordOfCain]

I personally think psionics are one of the more balanced subsystems and should make a good addition at a table not soured by earlier editions' psionics.

[Grod_The_Giant]

After sleeping on it, and reading more on psionics the player has now decided to go rogue /psion instead of wizard.
Tell them to check out the Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). You drop 2 skill points/level and 2d6 sneak attack in exchange for up to 5th level powers. The Lurk is also interesting; you get 6th level manifesting off a pretty solid sneaky list and about a half-strength sneak attack, but can spend pp to boost that, or to add assorted extra effects to their next attack-- Int or Wis damage and stunning are probably the standout two.

[haplot]

Id have to say the support and feedback you guys give are amazing

Thank you for the information.

You guys rock !!

[Soranar]

As a DM I love psychic classes cause they're easy to keep track of (how many PP you have per day instead of the gazillion spellslots a caster can end up with and the power knowns are limited too)

Just remember that hybrid casters (like the psychic rogue) have full manifester level and that many level 1 powers can be augmented into a level 1-9 power (say astral construct, energy ray, crystal shard, charm)

It can be a bit surprising to see a psychic rogue feel like a mailman *needs to use dorjes to have enough lasting power though)

Also, at early levels, a wilder can really do overpowered things through enervation like say charm a humanoid character for days

A psychic warrior is also far more versatile than your standard fighter type (like a TOB character)

They're still manageable mind, nothing is really overpowered if you remember all the psionic restrictions (metapsionics are very limited by the psionic focus mechanic for example)

[Calthropstu]

just a word of advice, psions, more so than almost any other class, benefit GREATLY from a "5 minute adventuring day."

They can drop many more top level powers than other classes but it burns their power points fast.

[Psyren]

For a Rogue/Psion PrC, Daggerspell Mage also has a psionic variant.

[haplot]

See, brilliant replies of brilliant wonderful people.

You guys are a wellspring of fantistic information.

Thank you

[martixy]

Just for opinion, it's my favourite casting system. (Broken bits included. I like how, while seemingly similar to vancian casting, in high-op levels it gains it's own particular "schtick", that is - action economy abuse.)

For something more relevant, psionics has a lot of material sprinkled throughout a great number of books. Eberron is also big on psionics.
There's also the Mind's Eye web articles (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi).