Power copying?

[danielxcutter]

What kinds of creatures, prestige classes, spells, etc. can imitate, absorb, or steal the abilities of others? I know quite a few, ranging from the lowly Spellthief to the super-OP Illithid Savant, as well as others like Polymorph, the Chameleon prestige class, the Feat Leech psionic power and it's cousin, Power Leech, etc.

I'm sure there are lots more, though.

[Necroticplague]

There's a Greater Doppleganger that can eat someone's brain in order to be able to turn into them, including all their class abilities.

[flappeercraft]

Well Wish, Limited Wish and Miracle can do that but those are well known. Then there is a slightly obscure spell called Replicate Casting which is in Spell compendium.

[daremetoidareyo]

the ability rip spell in serpent kingdoms

Channeling a celestial?

[Jormengand]

The Factotum can copy any (Ex) ability available to a standard class at level 15 or lower, starting from factotum level 19.

[danielxcutter]

There's a Greater Doppleganger that can eat someone's brain in order to be able to turn into them, including all their class abilities.

I think we have a winner. Well, almost. Is there a limit?


Well Wish, Limited Wish and Miracle can do that but those are well known. Then there is a slightly obscure spell called Replicate Casting which is in Spell compendium.

What does Replicate Casting do, exactly?


the ability rip spell in serpent kingdoms

Channeling a celestial?

I don't know much about either of those. Explain please.


The Factotum can copy any (Ex) ability available to a standard class at level 15 or lower, starting from factotum level 19.

That's probably the most PC-friendly example. I wonder if that works on maneuvers?

[Jormengand]

That's probably the most PC-friendly example. I wonder if that works on maneuvers?

It gets worse: Spellcasting is probably actually (Ex), even if the spells themselves aren't (I can't remember entirely the logic behind why this is the case, though). That means you can potentially rip off a creature's casting ability wholesale, though you'd have to find one where you didn't have to spend time getting the spells ready. Unfortunately the Maneuvers class feature is probably actually (Na), even if some of the maneuvers themselves are (Ex). The invocations class feature is probably (Na), utterances class feature is definitely (Su). Worst comes to the worst, you just nab Sneak Attack 10d6 rather than trying to nick magic off people.

There's probably something you can do that's better than sneak attack, though...

[mabriss lethe]

The limit on Greater Doppelganger:

They can consume 3 personalities without any drawback, (must be humanoids) but after the 3rd, they have to make a will save every time they consume another or they lose a random personality already consumed. They're also somewhat limited by being unable to mimic many of the abilities granted by deities, including 2nd level or higher cleric spells, paladin abilities, etc.

[danielxcutter]

It gets worse: Spellcasting is probably actually (Ex), even if the spells themselves aren't (I can't remember entirely the logic behind why this is the case, though). That means you can potentially rip off a creature's casting ability wholesale, though you'd have to find one where you didn't have to spend time getting the spells ready. Unfortunately the Maneuvers class feature is probably actually (Na), even if some of the maneuvers themselves are (Ex). The invocations class feature is probably (Na), utterances class feature is definitely (Su). Worst comes to the worst, you just nab Sneak Attack 10d6 rather than trying to nick magic off people.

There's probably something you can do that's better than sneak attack, though...

Pretty sure that this is at least ambigious about the wording, instead of out and out saying that casting spells is (Ex).

Sneak attack's pretty sweet, though. I think a 15th-level rogue gets something like 8d6 sneak attack.


The limit on Greater Doppelganger:

They can consume 3 personalities without any drawback, (must be humanoids) but after the 3rd, they have to make a will save every time they consume another or they lose a random personality already consumed. They're also somewhat limited by being unable to mimic many of the abilities granted by deities, including 2nd level or higher cleric spells, paladin abilities, etc.

Hmm... So psionics and arcane spells are fair game. :smalleek: Can they steal the BAB of a martial or something like that?

[Gruftzwerg]

Void Disciple (4) could be another option. The Moment of Clarity ability can give temporary either any feat (only ancestor feats are excluded, epic not) or ranks (!) in a skill. Abuse able with Body outside Bodies (see TO: BoBaFeat).

Another option would be the "pun" way to go and call for a Sarrukh (maybe with the help of Pazuzu?^^). Be a scaled one and profit form any ability you might think of.

edit:
other odd and limited options could be:

- Spellbalde (specific spell) weapon enchantment: absorb the specif spell targeted at you (e.g. Dispell Magic) and cast is next round if desired.
- Spell Stowaway (specific spell) epic feat: whenever someone in 300ft range casts the spell (e.g. Haste/TimeStop) you may also be affected by the spell.

[The Viscount]

The Reason Stealer can steal BAB, skills, and saves from victims.

Nighstalkers's Transformation can give you 3d6 SA and evasion, though at the cost of your spellcasting.

My favorite example to use with Factotum copying abilities is Healer's Mount. Having a Couatl for 1 minute is hilarious.

A War Chanter can share the BA of anyone in the radius of the song.

Celestial channeling is like voluntary possession, allowing you to gain the skill ranks of the celestial and their spells.

Spellthief and a monster with spell drain can, in very limited forms, cast enemy spells.

[Inevitability]

There's the Mirror Move spell.

[Mordaedil]

Wouldn't spellcasting literally be (Sp)? I mean, if it walks like a goose, quacks like a goose...

[Celestia]

Spellcasting is a natural ability.

[danielxcutter]

There's the Mirror Move spell.

And it's only a 2nd level spell? My next arcane gish is totally getting this!

[Inevitability]

And it's only a 2nd level spell? My next arcane gish is totally getting this!

Welcome to WotC's online material.

[danielxcutter]

Welcome to WotC's online material.

I remember that there was a 9th level spell called Teleport Through Time, which functions exactly as you'd think.

Btw, I guess it really is a good spell for arcane gishes? It seems like it would be insanely good, especially if it's Persisted.

[Inevitability]

I remember that there was a 9th level spell called Teleport Through Time, which functions exactly as you'd think.

Btw, I guess it really is a good spell for arcane gishes? It seems like it would be insanely good, especially if it's Persisted.

It's abusable in more than one way, yes.

Fun fact: material components get destroyed upon use. Any large body of water is a valid material component for this spell. Be Mirror-Man the Lakebreaker!

[Thurbane]

Ur-Priest 10 can steal SLAs, 1/day.

[danielxcutter]

Ur-Priest 10 can steal SLAs, 1/day.

Hmm... Psionic powers count as SLAs, right? That could be interesting.

Btw, where was that ruling again?

[ben-zayb]

There are a decent amount of monsters that copy the abilities of creatures they killed of something. Aside from the Greater Dopp, I think there also is an Ethereal Doppelganger.

There is an ooze that copies the appearance, INT score, and skill ranks of its victim iirc. Reason Stealer, I think?

Oh, and a Loumara Tan'ari (Dybbuk?) from FCI gets the abilities of dead creatures it currently possesses. Yep, that should include spellcasting, so just kill your favorite caster. whoops. Rather, they get the statistics except the Ex, Su, and Sp. So spellcasting should still work, being neither of those three.

[Celestia]

There's the Mirror Move spell.
You can copy Improved Initiative? What's the point? You have to witness the feat being used in order to copy it, and the only way to witness Improved Initiative being used is if the party rolls initiative. If initiative has been rolled, then Improved Initiative no longer serves any purpose. It does nothing! :smallconfused:

[danielxcutter]

You can copy Improved Initiative? What's the point? You have to witness the feat being used in order to copy it, and the only way to witness Improved Initiative being used is if the party rolls initiative. If initiative has been rolled, then Improved Initiative no longer serves any purpose. It does nothing! :smallconfused:

You can copy lots of other feats. It's probably better for a gish than a pure caster.

[Thurbane]

Oh, and a Loumara Tan'ari (Dybbuk?) from FCI gets the abilities of dead creatures it currently possesses. Yep, that should include spellcasting, so just kill your favorite caster. whoops. Rather, they get the statistics except the Ex, Su, and Sp. So spellcasting should still work, being neither of those three.

Oh no, I feel another 3 page debate about whether spellcasting is Ex or not coming on! :smalltongue:

[Lazymancer]

It gets worse: Spellcasting is probably actually (Ex), even if the spells themselves aren't (I can't remember entirely the logic behind why this is the case, though).
IIRC the reasoning was based on Monster Manual where it is written that there are only three types of special abilities: Ex, Su, and Sp. And spells are one of those, since they are listed as such in monster entry. Then it goes on to prove that spellcasting is Ex (for example, unlike Sp and Su it is useable inside AMF - Invoke Magic spell).

@Thurbane: do you think there will be arguments? I mean, it's pure theory either way - copying spell-casting is not something that will happen, whatever it is written in the books.

[Necroticplague]

I've never seen someone argue spellcasting was EX. I have, however, seen it argued that it was a natural ability, based on this line:

Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

More on-topic, the classic Fusion+Astral Seed combination can be used to add abilities from something else to yourself. Has some issues with typing and size, but nothing a Metamorphosis can't fix.

[daremetoidareyo]

cadaver golem is another one that can nab abilities from from corpses

[Thurbane]

@Thurbane: do you think there will be arguments? I mean, it's pure theory either way - copying spell-casting is not something that will happen, whatever it is written in the books.

I'm not going to search and provide sources right now, but this is something I've seen debated many, many times on every 3E forum I've been active on.

Maybe not specifically whether it is Ex or not (although this is one of the most common), but certainly which classification it falls into...mainly for shape changing shenanigans.

[Psyren]

Fusion + Astral Seed


Oh no, I feel another 3 page debate about whether spellcasting is Ex or not coming on! :smalltongue:

Only 3??

(Let's not)

[The Viscount]

I've never seen it satisfactorily argued one way or another. However, what I can say is that there do exist a small number of monsters from MMV for which spellcasting is described as an Ex ability. Obviously I don't think this has any bearing on the debate at large but what it does mean is that if you use the methods for taking Ex abilities and target a Hobgoblin Warcaster you can cast as a 4th level wizard, or a Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip to cast (with domains) and rebuke as an 8th level cleric.

[danielxcutter]

I've never seen it satisfactorily argued one way or another. However, what I can say is that there do exist a small number of monsters from MMV for which spellcasting is described as an Ex ability. Obviously I don't think this has any bearing on the debate at large but what it does mean is that if you use the methods for taking Ex abilities and target a Hobgoblin Warcaster you can cast as a 4th level wizard, or a Kuo-Toa Exalted Whip to cast (with domains) and rebuke as an 8th level cleric.

So for those monsters only, you actually can use their spells, then. I'm sure there's a way to abuse that.

[ben-zayb]

Oh no, I feel another 3 page debate about whether spellcasting is Ex or not coming on! :smalltongue:

You do realize posts such as this are like self-fulfilling prophecies, right?