Using a lightning rod to protect from Electricity damage.

[Zexionthefirst]

I'm running a D&D 3.5 PbP here on the playground, and right now my players are clearing out some Shocker Lizards from a cave. Pretty straight forward, nothing too fancy so far as they know. The Lethal Shock (Su) ability these lizards have does seem to be worrying a few of them.

One of the players came up with the idea of getting an iron chain, magnetizing it, and grounding one end. To serve as a sort of lightning rod. Now, I have talked to several people I know, and I am now well aware that magnetizing the chain doesn't really matter in this. But I do like the idea, and iron can be used as a lightning rod, so I'm going to let them go through with it.

I was wondering how much of a boon should this be? My ideas so far are:

1) Damage from any electrical attack made within 10ft of the chain is reduced by 50% (that half of the damage being absorbed into the chain).
2) Any reflex saves made as a result of electrical damage get a +2 circumstance bonus (Such as from the Lightningbolt spell.)
3) Each time the chain is struck by electrical damage, there is a chance that it will become "demagnetized".

Any thoughts on this would be welcome. Also, if any of my players read are reading this: buffalo
Feel free to jump in with ideas. :smallsmile:

Edit: Their plan is to mount the chain on the wall nearby, so they wont be in physical contact with it during combat.

[Bohandas]

Since you bring this up the related question occurs to me of whether, realistically, a full suit of metal plate armor would act as a faraday cage

[logic_error]

Since you bring this up the related question occurs to me of whether, realistically, a full suit of metal plate armor would act as a faraday cage
It would be a Faraday cage that would kill you on contact. You need an insulator between you and the metal.

Also, historically a real battle suit *probably* was not head to toe metal layer. There's an argument that the ones which are of these form are ceremonial. Someone more educated in this topic on D&D realities could enlighten us more.

[Gildedragon]

Since you bring this up the related question occurs to me of whether, realistically, a full suit of metal plate armor would act as a faraday cage

Probably would.
Things might get heated tho.

As to the chain:
Having it reduce the damage... or make the attack be "reflex: negates"

[Bucky]

Cut the chaff, just make it give the circumstance bonus. Realism would demand that they drop the chain to gain the benefit - they're blocking the arc with a chain but are likely to be shocked if they're still holding it.

Alternatively, you can say it makes you take half damage - your legs ground half the current, the chain grounds the other half.

They shouldn't get both, though.

[Zexionthefirst]

Cut the chaff, just make it give the circumstance bonus. Realism would demand that they drop the chain to gain the benefit - they're blocking the arc with a chain but are likely to be shocked if they're still holding it.

Alternatively, you can say it makes you take half damage - your legs ground half the current, the chain grounds the other half.

They shouldn't get both, though.

I'm sorry. this is my bad. The plan, it seems, is for the chain to be mounted on the wall near them. So they wont be holding on to it (at least, they don't plan on holding it when combat starts). I'll edit the original post to include this information.

[logic_error]

I'm sorry. this is my bad. The plan, it seems, is for the chain to be mounted on the wall near them. So they wont be holding on to it (at least, they don't plan on holding it when combat starts). I'll edit the original post to include this information.

Then it won't help them at all. Air is a bad conductor when dry. So a magical shock directed at them would not be automatically diverted to the lightening rod.

[DeTess]

Then it won't help them at all. Air is a bad conductor when dry. So a magical shock directed at them would not be automatically diverted to the lightening rod.

Then again, with that logic, the magical shock ought to just hit the ground in front of the caster, so...
Personally, I'd make this a reflex save for no damage, and maybe have those with evasion or similar abilities take only half damage on a failed save. You could make it work like evasion for everyone instead (reflex for half, evasion gets no damage on a reflex save), but as a DM, I'd personally try and encourage such creative problem-solving and planning ahead by giving it a decent boon.

[logic_error]

Then again, with that logic, the magical shock ought to just hit the ground in front of the caster, so...
Personally, I'd make this a reflex save for no damage, and maybe have those with evasion or similar abilities take only half damage on a failed save. You could make it work like evasion for everyone instead (reflex for half, evasion gets no damage on a reflex save), but as a DM, I'd personally try and encourage such creative problem-solving and planning ahead by giving it a decent boon.

Hmm. I assumed that magic in the attack included directing it.


Edit

How about this as a solution: the heroes prepare a shield with a wooden handle and cushion that is separately grounded a la Ben Franklin? I would make knowledge arcane // nature// + craft check for this though. Just because the player knows this does not mean the character does. It it's an appropriate profession or class like artificer the DC is lower.

[Ashtagon]

As you noted, magnetism is irrelevant over distances beyond a few inches. Additionally, the spell is directed by magic at least, if not more, than by physics.

I'd offer a +2 on saves if they are within 5 feet (but not in physical contact with) of the lightning rod.

Regarding full suits of armour: Yes, they were real, and used in earnest life or death battle. But they were also quite late in the history of armour development. Because they lack a proper insulation layer (there's cloth and soft leather underneath, but also a megaton of sweat), they won't offer any protection against lightning as an ersatz faraday cage. iirc, 1st edition even gave them a penalty against lightning attacks, because they would draw the electricity arcs towards themselves.

[Florian]

Wouldn't do it. Trying the mix and match RL physics and magic will only lead to a headache and are trouble than it is worth. Critters like Shocker Lizards have the supernatural ability to generate lightning, so they also have the ability to guide it and target with it.

[Thurbane]

It would be a Faraday cage that would kill you on contact. You need an insulator between you and the metal.

You know, armor wasn't historically worn against bare skin. The wearer generally had a gambeson of quilted linen or wool underneath: even in lighter armor, some kind of undercoat or similar was worn.

I know it's a technicality, it wouldn't offer enough protection, and some part of the wearer would likely still be in contact with the armor somewhere, but I felt it needed pointing out. :smallwink:

In regards to the OP, I'd maybe go with the +2 circumstance bonus, at best.

[Ashtagon]

You know, armor wasn't historically worn against bare skin. The wearer generally had a gambeson of quilted linen or wool underneath: even in lighter armor, some kind of undercoat or similar was worn.

I know it's a technicality, it wouldn't offer enough protection, and some part of the wearer would likely still be in contact with the armor somewhere, but I felt it needed pointing out. :smallwink:

In regards to the OP, I'd maybe go with the +2 circumstance bonus, at best.

It's true that a gambeson would have been worn underneath (and probably underwaer beneath that), but given the amount of sweat and incidental skin contact around the edges and especially old sweat turning the gambeson into a good conductor, electrical attacks will still be very rough on anyone wearing metal armour.

[Necroticplague]

It shouldn't be a boon at all. The rules state nothing to the effect that this could help, magical lightning works very little like actual lightning, and allow these monstrous amalgamations of RL and in-game physics to work just encourages them to try going around the rules again in the future.

[DeTess]

It shouldn't be a boon at all. The rules state nothing to the effect that this could help, magical lightning works very little like actual lightning, and allow these monstrous amalgamations of RL and in-game physics to work just encourages them to try going around the rules again in the future.

Which, depending on your Dm'ing style, is not a bad thing. If you're playing a highly optimized RAW campaign, then I'd agree with your statement. If you aren't playing such a campaign though, then I think that creative ideas to deal with threats (rather than getting some potion or other or finding a way to cheese it) should be rewarded and encouraged, as long as they make some sense.

[Thunder999]

Magical lightning doesn't behave like real electricity at all, so this probably shouldn't work.

[Gildedragon]

I do recommend rewarding creative thinking.
Giving them evasion if they are within five feet of the chain is a good idea

[tedcahill2]

I don't necessarily have an issue with using a lightning rod to mitigate lightning attacks, however, I will argue the other side.

In a world of magic, physics need not apply.

Lightning would normally follow the easiest path to the ground. It will travel across/through the most conductive materials to do so. Dry air is a bad conductor. These are truths in our world.

In D&D people can shoot lightning across a room at someone/thing. Since we know air is a bad conductor, if this magic lightning followed real physics it would fizzle out a few feet from the caster as the lightning dissipates in all directions around him. Since their is no easiest path, it goes everywhere. It can also be chained between multiple targets that are not in physical contact to one another. These things are so counter to real world physics that we must conclude that magic lightning doesn't follow the rules of natural lightning.

So if we agree on that point than it is just as likely that using a lightning rod would have no effect of magic lightning.

If you want to reward player creativity, which I encourage, I would say that if they were to hold the chain in a gloved hand, and the other end of the chain was touching the ground, that it would help ground them against the lightning attacks. I would rule the benefit of such to provide lightning resistance of 2. It will help redirect a little lightning, but won't stop damage from a more powerful strike.

[Necroticplague]

Which, depending on your Dm'ing style, is not a bad thing. If you're playing a highly optimized RAW campaign, then I'd agree with your statement. If you aren't playing such a campaign though, then I think that creative ideas to deal with threats (rather than getting some potion or other or finding a way to cheese it) should be rewarded and encouraged, as long as they make some sense.

Problem with awarding creativity by letting them ignore rules is that leads to an irritating slippery slope where they try and talk/metagame their way out of problems when they hit what they think is a brick wall*, requiring me to do a lot more on-the-fly judgement calls, houserules, and rulings. Easier on me if I just make sure to nip that kind of behavior in the bud from the start.

*= key word 'they think'. It's an imperative to me that they don't actually do so.

[Waker]

Its a clever enough idea. I'd say give it a +2 circumstance bonus on reflex saves. Its a mundane item after all and magic is a finnicky thing in relation to physics. Anything beyond that would be too strong without including an item specifically designed for this situation.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Give the +2 due to clever thinking but make them aware that clever thinking won't always be rewarded as such. Magic and physics aren't the best of friends.

[Thurbane]

Give the +2 due to clever thinking but make them aware that clever thinking won't always be rewarded as such. Magic and physics aren't the best of friends.

Sums up my stance as well.

I can't find the exact citation at the moment (I should really be getting ready for work :smalltongue: ), but I'm sure somewhere in the DMG or SRD it encourages DMs to apply up to a +2 circumstance bonus on checks to reward creativity, or to cover situations not explicitly covered by RAW.

[JNAProductions]

Zexion, isn't some of it no-save?

With that in mind, what would you guys suggest? I saw Lightning Resistance 2, and that seems like a good way to go about it. Guaranteed protection, but not much of it.

Also, player in his PbP here.

[Zexionthefirst]

Zexion, isn't some of it no-save?

With that in mind, what would you guys suggest? I saw Lightning Resistance 2, and that seems like a good way to go about it. Guaranteed protection, but not much of it.

Also, player in his PbP here.

For shocker lizards, all of it would be reflex for half. One is a single target within 5ft, the other is all targets withing a radius of 20 feet.

[martixy]

It would be a Faraday cage that would kill you on contact. You need an insulator between you and the metal.

Here we see Dr. Handsome Hanson (https://youtu.be/KGhNgeg9IAw?t=4m20s) wearing nothing but a t-shirt between the chainmail and bare skin, so you don't actually need that much protection.

As far as OP, given the precedent of metal armor increasing the DC of some electric attacks by 2, I'd say, a +2 bonus to saves is the correct choice.

[logic_error]

Here we see Dr. Handsome Hanson (https://youtu.be/KGhNgeg9IAw?t=4m20s) wearing nothing but a t-shirt between the chainmail and bare skin, so you don't actually need that much protection.

As far as OP, given the precedent of metal armor increasing the DC of some electric attacks by 2, I'd say, a +2 bonus to saves is the correct choice.

I hope you actually listened to that too and not just see the pretty pictures. He specifically says that any exposed skin will burn him.

[John Longarrow]

Zexionthefirst

Are you encouraging cleverness based on in-game, character knowledge or based off of out of character player knowledge?

If they characters in game see something that shows that a chain should work to mitigate lightning damage then go with it.

If the player is using out of character knowledge I'd say avoid it. That way you also avoid when the player talks about wanting to get some nitric acid, sulfuric acid, and some cotton.
(NOTE: Try adjudicating the damage for a 2000 lbs projectile traveling well above the speed of sound hitting a dragon. That is where mixing too much real life into a D&D game can go really quickly)

Now if you already have an established reason for the characters to believe this to work then either energy resistance 2 or a +2 to save makes sense. Just make sure its because the characters found out, not the players themselves.

[JNAProductions]

Zexionthefirst

Are you encouraging cleverness based on in-game, character knowledge or based off of out of character player knowledge?

If they characters in game see something that shows that a chain should work to mitigate lightning damage then go with it.

If the player is using out of character knowledge I'd say avoid it. That way you also avoid when the player talks about wanting to get some nitric acid, sulfuric acid, and some cotton.
(NOTE: Try adjudicating the damage for a 2000 lbs projectile traveling well above the speed of sound hitting a dragon. That is where mixing too much real life into a D&D game can go really quickly)

Now if you already have an established reason for the characters to believe this to work then either energy resistance 2 or a +2 to save makes sense. Just make sure its because the characters found out, not the players themselves.

I am playing an Inventor, so SCIENCE! is right up my character's alley.

[John Longarrow]

I am playing an Inventor, so SCIENCE! is right up my character's alley.

The 5e Class? Just making sure I'm looking at the right rules for this discussion.

[JNAProductions]

The 5e Class? Just making sure I'm looking at the right rules for this discussion.

3.5. Jormengard's Homebrew.

[John Longarrow]

3.5. Jormengard's Homebrew.

Does the class have something that would allow the character to know about conductivity? As it is homebrew I'm not familiar with it or its limits. Then again if "Science" I'd do much more fun things than just try to ground out the area. Said pair of acids mixed with clean cotton, wait a minute and wash. Pack in a canister with copper wire running through and coated on the inside with rocks.

Give canister (containing about 10 lbs of rubble and 2 lbs of material) to summoned creature to run into the middle of the lizards. If they can do multiple dice of damage, the current should also cause the copper to set off the charge. Then the DM gets to figure out what the blast radius and damage is for 2 lbs of gun-cotton sending shrapnel over a very large area. Should be enough to clear everything in a 50' radius, more if the blast is channeled or otherwise concentrated (say underground).

Or take a bit of time to make mustard gas. That should clear them out. Simple chemical reaction to.

[JNAProductions]

Does the class have something that would allow the character to know about conductivity? As it is homebrew I'm not familiar with it or its limits. Then again if "Science" I'd do much more fun things than just try to ground out the area. Said pair of acids mixed with clean cotton, wait a minute and wash. Pack in a canister with copper wire running through and coated on the inside with rocks.

Give canister (containing about 10 lbs of rubble and 2 lbs of material) to summoned creature to run into the middle of the lizards. If they can do multiple dice of damage, the current should also cause the copper to set off the charge. Then the DM gets to figure out what the blast radius and damage is for 2 lbs of gun-cotton sending shrapnel over a very large area. Should be enough to clear everything in a 50' radius, more if the blast is channeled or otherwise concentrated (say underground).

Or take a bit of time to make mustard gas. That should clear them out. Simple chemical reaction to.

It's vaguely pseudoscience based. But it makes sense to use actual science, in some ways.

[John Longarrow]

If its vaguely pseudoscience then lightning is an air power so then you'd want an earth power to counter. That, by pseudo science would mean that metal is non-conductive and wearing a lot of it should help stop the air effect from harming you. So don't put the chain near you, warp yourself it in! :smallbiggrin:

More specifically what class feature would let you use a piece of chain to ground an electrical attack? This would no longer be a question of if/how a lightning rod would work in D&D, it should be a rules question regarding the class feature you are trying to use. Do you have a link to the class in question so we can see if there is a class feature that could do what your wanting to?

[JNAProductions]

If its vaguely pseudoscience then lightning is an air power so then you'd want an earth power to counter. That, by pseudo science would mean that metal is non-conductive and wearing a lot of it should help stop the air effect from harming you. So don't put the chain near you, warp yourself it in! :smallbiggrin:

More specifically what class feature would let you use a piece of chain to ground an electrical attack? This would no longer be a question of if/how a lightning rod would work in D&D, it should be a rules question regarding the class feature you are trying to use. Do you have a link to the class in question so we can see if there is a class feature that could do what your wanting to?

Gimme a moment to dig up the link...

Here it is! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?461501-Inventions!-Magitech-Classes-Base-Class-Contest-30-winner-PEACH)

And no, no class feature explicitly allows this. So I'm fine with the bonus being small (seeing as how it IS 100% off the wall) but I would like A bonus.

[John Longarrow]

So your trying to make an Elemental Jacket?

I think that's in the rules for the class already. :smallsmile:

[Zexionthefirst]

Alright, it seems the consensus is a bonus on reflex saves (with a few mentions of energy resistance). A lot less powerful then what I originally suggested, so I'm glad I actually asked. Thanks everyone.

[John Longarrow]

Alright, it seems the consensus is a bonus on reflex saves (with a few mentions of energy resistance). A lot less powerful then what I originally suggested, so I'm glad I actually asked. Thanks everyone.

There is a class feature for the class he has, if he took the right discipline, that would cover this situation; Elemental Jacket. It is a 1st level Repulsion.

Elemental Jacket
Level: Rep 1
Invention Points: 5
Construction time: 15 minutes
This jacket protects against the elements.

The jacket grants resistance 5 to an energy type chosen by you upon its creation, and resistance 2 to each other energy type

I think this is what he'd be looking at for in class ability to protect himself against lightning attacks.

[Thurbane]

Is that Pathfinder? Because I'm pretty sure OP mentioned a 3.5 game. Never mind, this is in response to a 5E question by another poster

Anyway, I kinda prefer My Morning Jacket (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1MMStUrNGs).