Do you remember a time before Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade?

[djreynolds]

Getting to 5th level used to be all the rage. It was essential to a martial combatant to get to this point

Now with the power of the these melee cantrips, players sometimes avoid 5th level in a class because the extra attack is no longer "as necessary"

These 2 cantrips, for better or worse, have really changed what is needed for a build.

Opinions

[Lombra]

They don't appeal to me and I never used them. The versatility of an extra attack to shove/grapple is just better than a couple damage dice IMO.

[Gastronomie]

Extra Attack more or less remains the better option in most situations. What GFB and BB did was not to make Extra Attack worthless (that's quite far from the truth) - it rather broadened the possibilities of multiclassing and improved the versatility of the game.

Before GFB and BB, Melee/Caster builds had to take their first 5 levels in a Melee class to take Extra Attack, because otherwise they'd lag behind in DPR too much compared to alternative options. But since most games take place in low level ranges, these builds rarely got to shine as much as they should.
Now, to be a Gish, all you need to take is 1 to 3 levels in a Melee class, just for proficiency and some additional core abilities, and then you can customize all the hell you want from then on. GFB and BB opened up a lot of new build ideas - and well, in my eyes, that's a good thing.

Overpowered as cantrips? Definitely.

Bad for the game? No.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

A lot of SCAG is OP, and GFB and BB are the most OP cantrips of all.

[djreynolds]

I just remember giving and receiving advice about character development, and these two cantrips seem to have really leveled the playing field in terms of at least melee.

Now not much out there is thunder resistant, and elemental adept can be a way of fixing greenflame blade

These 2 cantrips have "revolutionized" 5E.

I will often take magic initiate for a fighter, ranger or paladin and these cantrips are often 1 I will select now.

[hymer]

I haven't been a player much in 5e, but even as DM I've never seen any of them in play yet. People don't pick them.
As has been noted above, they aren't actually as powerful as attacking twice, and they come with their own problems and disadvantages. I don't consider them OP, and in fact barely relevant for now.

[TrinculoLives]

"Needed" for a build.

*scoff*


These spells serve as a useful indicator as to whether a player created their character normally, or used a guide to do so.

[Findulidas]

Yeah, I dont see them as being so powerful that you need them to function in the game. The base classes picking background at random can perform well using no feats and played as intended, except for beast ranger I suppose. You would have to have something really strange in your build to be unable to function I think. I still havent played with anyone picking them. Not really much MC either.

[Corran]

-I think it was necessary for multiclass gishes.
(My first gish in 5e was a dragonborn fighter/sorcerer -no extra attack, and I had taken xbow expert so that I can smack people in the face with my fiery hands -firebolt. It was cool, but at times I caught my self wondering... ''Wouldnt it be awesome if I could do that with a sword?!'' -enter GFB).

-I think it (BB) is fine on the rogue (arcane trickster), as twf is not invalidated.

-I think it does not upset martial classes, as they have things going for the extra attack more than with said cantrips.

-I think it makes the bladesinger's extra attack less of an exciting feature (perhaps even completelly unnecessary - though I've seen some twf bladesingers out there so perhaps I am wrong with this one), though bladesingers are wizards, so s**** them, they are very powerful already.
(My point is that I think that GFB and BB are necessary for a bladesinger)

-The major victim imo, is the poor player who wanted to play a melee valor bard (yes, bards dont automatically get thse cantrips, but come on...). Extra attack is useful for ranged valor bards, but for melee ones... meh. I think it would be ideal if they had an alternative option to choose from when they hit level 6 (one that makes more sense for a melee valor bard).


So, I think they are fine for the most part (and in fact I welcome them), and my only critique would be that they make the extra attack of the melee-oriented valor bard a non-feature.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I haven't been a player much in 5e, but even as DM I've never seen any of them in play yet. People don't pick them.

The player base you play with is an exception to the rule, BB and GFB are everywhere that I play.

[MaxWilson]

-I think it makes the bladesinger's extra attack less of an exciting feature (perhaps even completelly unnecessary - though I've seen some twf bladesingers out there so perhaps I am wrong with this one)

The Bladesinger's extra attack is most exciting when combined with a splash of Rogue for Athletics Expertise. When you can effortlessly grapple + prone an enemy of Large sizer or smaller, it helps conserve spell slots.

It goes without saying of course that Athletics Expertise isn't the ONLY thing you're getting out of Rogue 2. You're also getting Cunning Action and Stealth Expertise to let you abuse Fog Cloud/Darkness/Greater Invisibility; and a bit of sneak attack damage. But the point is, without Extra Attack, Athletics Expertise isn't exciting, so that synergy is still important to Roguesingers.

[Steampunkette]

Personally I love GFB and Booming Blade. With those spells my Pactblade Warlocks actually -feel- like Gish.

The biggest appeal of being a gish is magic and melee together. Not being a fighter or a wizard, but being both at the same time. And for the most part, D&D has -lacked- that feeling because you can either attack or cast a spell.

The Eldritch Knight is the only class or subclass in the -game- that gets to do both in the same round...

At least BB and GFB allow me to -feel- like I'm both casting a spell and making attacks at the same time. Them and Lightning Lure (Which I also adore).

Hell. I made a Hexblade Pact of the Tome Warlock with GFB and Lightning Lure to go along with Thorn Whip. I only make one attack per round (Almost always a cantrip) but it -feels- like I'm sword-and-spell fighting. I also gave her Thorn Whip for some nice at-range battlefield control since she's got Devil Eyes and all.

Seriously. GFB allows me to play a concept I love -fairly- well in 5e. The only thing that would have been better is an actual Spellblade class with it's own Spellstrikes and War Magic.

[mephnick]

The player base you play with is an exception to the rule, BB and GFB are everywhere that I play.

Maybe your player base is an exception to the rule? Or maybe personal anecdotes are useless. I don't know a single player that's read the Sword Coast Guide and even know these spells exist.

Most D&D players don't read about D&D on forums like this.

[Sigreid]

Not one person in my group has taken either.

[Corran]

The Bladesinger's extra attack is most exciting when combined with a splash of Rogue for Athletics Expertise. When you can effortlessly grapple + prone an enemy of Large sizer or smaller, it helps conserve spell slots.

Oh yes, that's true. Moreso for the valor bard (who I though was the most offended) who can already get expertise without multiclassing. I always like when I end up thinking that the designers are far wiser than I sometimes give them credit for.

[Cybren]

Personally I love GFB and Booming Blade. With those spells my Pactblade Warlocks actually -feel- like Gish.

The biggest appeal of being a gish is magic and melee together. Not being a fighter or a wizard, but being both at the same time. And for the most part, D&D has -lacked- that feeling because you can either attack or cast a spell.

The Eldritch Knight is the only class or subclass in the -game- that gets to do both in the same round...

At least BB and GFB allow me to -feel- like I'm both casting a spell and making attacks at the same time. Them and Lightning Lure (Which I also adore).

Hell. I made a Hexblade Pact of the Tome Warlock with GFB and Lightning Lure to go along with Thorn Whip. I only make one attack per round (Almost always a cantrip) but it -feels- like I'm sword-and-spell fighting. I also gave her Thorn Whip for some nice at-range battlefield control since she's got Devil Eyes and all.

Seriously. GFB allows me to play a concept I love -fairly- well in 5e. The only thing that would have been better is an actual Spellblade class with it's own Spellstrikes and War Magic.
Valor bard 14

[Steampunkette]

You're right! They get to cast a bard spell and then bonus action attack at around the level most long-running campaigns stop.

I'd never gotten that high level with a bard... maybe I'll try it with the Chultan adventure coming out. Gotta grab GFB for the first 13 levels, though...

[2D8HP]

.. I don't know a single player that's read the Sword Coast Guide and even know these spells exist.

Most D&D players don't read about D&D on forums like this.

Honestly, I own SCAG, and what I pulled out of it is the "Swashbuckler" subclass.

I really don't pay attention to spells at all.

[SharkForce]

most of the damage-dealing classes get better value out of not using the cantrips. it does give a small boost to less damage-oriented classes, but even then there is typically a cost (like needing to spend a feat, or a rogue not getting to use TWF for a second attack, or the fact that it isn't an attack action leading to missing out on some ability you have that triggers on an attack action). it only really shines for a few specific builds, and it doesn't even shine *that* brightly for them (and some of those builds it probably should shine for anyways... an arcana cleric using their god-granted powers to empower their melee attacks, a blade pact warlock, an eldritch knight (even then only at certain levels iirc), these all sound like classes where effectiveness coming from a combined spell and weapon attack is a feature, not a bug).

[hymer]

Or maybe personal anecdotes are useless.

I was only providing context to my opinion, for which I was asked. :smallsmile:

[Cybren]

You're right! They get to cast a bard spell and then bonus action attack at around the level most long-running campaigns stop.

I'd never gotten that high level with a bard... maybe I'll try it with the Chultan adventure coming out. Gotta grab GFB for the first 13 levels, though...

Hey look, you made an absolute and the reinforced it with -dashes-!

[Scots Dragon]

"Needed" for a build.

*scoff*


These spells serve as a useful indicator as to whether a player created their character normally, or used a guide to do so.

I haven't looked at a single guide, but I could see myself using one of them for an elven bladesinger or an eldritch knight 'cause they kinda fit the theme, but beyond that minor area... yeah, not really something I can see myself using very often.

[Steampunkette]

Hey look, you made an absolute and the reinforced it with -dashes-!

Hang on, a sec, here... To make sure we're both 100% on the same page:

Are you trying to correct my mistake or are you just trying to be rude and condescending?

I had assumed the former. But I'd like it to be explicitly clear.

[Cybren]

Hang on, a sec, here... To make sure we're both 100% on the same page:

Are you trying to correct my mistake or are you just trying to be rude and condescending?

I had assumed the former. But I'd like it to be explicitly clear.

I mean, you seemed a bit rude and condescending when you said:

"You're right! They get to cast a bard spell and then bonus action attack at around the level most long-running campaigns stop."

[rooneg]

The player base you play with is an exception to the rule, BB and GFB are everywhere that I play.

Likewise, for what it's worth.

I actually like BB and GFB, they let you play magical seeming melee characters, something that was sorely lacking before they showed up. I love my Eldritch Knight, and I can't imagine why I'd want to play that archetype without BB/GFB. Those cantrips make that archetype worthwhile.

[Steampunkette]

I mean, you seemed a bit rude and condescending when you said:

"You're right! They get to cast a bard spell and then bonus action attack at around the level most long-running campaigns stop."

It wasn't mean to be condescending. It was meant as an explanation of why I'd never seen it...

Very few games I've ever been involved with (Running or otherwise) went past 14. Since I've never played a Bard in 5e (Valor or Otherwise) I never really looked at their high end potential.

That's why the second part was a speculative notion about playing one, but grabbing GFB to get gishiness up 'til that point.

Once again, lack of inflection and body language online creates misunderstandings. I'm sorry. :(

[Honest Tiefling]

I like how this edition has only been out for what, 3 years, and we already got grognards.

I don't think there's anything wrong with publishing new spells or abilities that mix things up, that's what worked really well for 3rd. Also, it's easy to ban them if you don't like it, but personally I agree with Steampunkette. These two cantrips are extremely gishy and really nice for gishes because they were designed for them.

Not a lot of selection for gishes and I'm honestly getting sick of every caster having Fire Bolt. Give the gishes their own dang cantrips so we can see some variation in spell selection.

[Cybren]

It wasn't mean to be condescending. It was meant as an explanation of why I'd never seen it...

Very few games I've ever been involved with (Running or otherwise) went past 14. Since I've never played a Bard in 5e (Valor or Otherwise) I never really looked at their high end potential.

That's why the second part was a speculative notion about playing one, but grabbing GFB to get gishiness up 'til that point.

Once again, lack of inflection and body language online creates misunderstandings. I'm sorry. :(

I wasn't upset by it, I figured it was playful ribbing and responded in kind. At any rate, I do think the reason the valor bard ability comes online so late is to let the eldricht knight feel cooler in the early game, given the valor bard is already a full caster and gets their own set of goodies

[DracoKnight]

I like how this edition has only been out for what, 3 years, and we already got grognards.

I don't think there's anything wrong with publishing new spells or abilities that mix things up, that's what worked really well for 3rd. Also, it's easy to ban them if you don't like it, but personally I agree with Steampunkette. These two cantrips are extremely gishy and really nice for gishes because they were designed for them.

Not a lot of selection for gishes and I'm honestly getting sick of every caster having Fire Bolt. Give the gishes their own dang cantrips so we can see some variation in spell selection.

I agree with everything you just said! Hear, hear! I firmly believe that green-flame blade and booming blade were necessary additions to the game.

[Draco4472]

It just provides spellcasters better melee options and opens up more versatile multiclass builds. There aren't many spells that allow players to do much with weapons, and before the SCAG, making a spellcaster/melee multiclass meant on your turns, you had to choose between magic and swordplay, with no middle ground. Now with GFB and BB players can cast spells that interact with melee features and abilities, and allows mostly spellcaster builds to have a melee option that doesn't lag as far behind as a fighter of the same level.

[Kane0]

Since their introduction i've seen them taken on at least half a dozen characters but never used more than a handful of times.

[Arkhios]

I can easily remember the time before those cantrips.

The group I play in has nothing outside of PHB, except for a refluffed background from SCAG, a revised ranger, and a Storm Sorcerer who's a ranged blaster and thus has no need for any of those cantrips.

The group I DM for has one player whose eldritch knight is solely built with those cantrips, spell sniper, and polearm master in mind (with my blessing as I honestly wanted to see how it plays out).

[Waazraath]

Yes, I'm happy with them though. I use BB on my tempest cleric, very thematic and a slight damage boost, occasionally, and permanently from 5th level onwards. The cleric didn't really need it, but it's cool to have it, to play a more melee role with spell backup instead of caster with melee backup.

They don't break anything, make a few concepts a bit more powerful (like melee cleric, rogue, Eldritch Knight especially at level 7-10).

I was cool with 5e before them, and am still cool with it.

[MeeposFire]

I would actually like a few more of these type of cantrips for other classes. For instance a decent one for clerics that fits their themes. That would be great. Also a variation for a warlock perhaps designed to work really well for a bladelock would be cool.