Domain wizard?/druid

[Tallis]

I'm about to join a new gaming group. They use gestalt characters, so I've been looking at UA in the SRD. I want to build a druid/wizard, so I was looking at the class variants to see what's available and I came across the domain wizard.
Am I missing something? I can't find anything that says what you lose in return for getting an extra spell at each level.
So is there something I missed or is it just a straight power boost?

Also any build suggestions would be welcome as I've never used a gestalt before. I also wanted to use the Sidhe Scholar variant druid from Dragon #339. I have the first 4 complete books, complete mage, and the SRD to work with in addition to PHB, DMG, MM 1-3. I'm allowed to use legacy items, but don't know where to find the rules.
He'll be lvl 6, 32 point buy, grey elf.

We expect to run into a lot of undead and dragons.

[Iku Rex]

You're not missing anything. UA is not a regular DnD supplement and the variant rules in it aren't always supposed to be balanced with regular DnD. Case in point: gestalt.

[Jack_Simth]

In general:
A couple of things to be wary of with Gestalt....

1) Pick a primary and supporting class; don't try to fill both roles.
The Paladin//Sorcerer has a problem - needs Strength for fighting, Con for HP, Wis for Paladin spellcasting, and Charisma for Sorcerer spellcasting. Trying to be both a full Paladin and a Full Sorcerer is going to hurt. The Sorcerer//paladin, on the other hand, is a Sorcerer with a better HD, attack bonus, and Divine Grace (plus a mount).

2) Don't take classes with abilities that get in each other's way.
A Wizard is armorless; a Fighter can wear heavy armor to get a really good AC. A Fighter//Wizard either can't wear heavy armor or can't cast spells effectively due to Arcane Spell Failure. A Wizard//Monk, on the other hand, can't wear armor on both sides, so it doesn't matter, while a Fighter//Cleric has no problems at all with heavy armor.

3) Look for class abilities that compliment each other.
A Druid can't make much use of decent armor until mid-high levels (as the Wild armor property is a +3 equivalent, which means armor usable in Wild Shape cost a minimum of 16,000 gp, and most the armors a Druid can use aren't very good), due to Wildshape and the materials restriction. A Monk can't use armor anyway, and is designed around it (but has a case of Multiple Attribute Dependency (MAD) right out of the box). A Monk//druid or a Druid//monk gets interesting - both classes are Wisdom based, the monk's AC and speed boost continue to apply in wild shape, and Wild Shape itself greatly reduces the Monk's case of MAD (as Wild Shape grants the physical stats of the form). The two complement each other well.

4) Look for classes without overlap.
Sure, the spell load of a Sorcerer//Wizard looks great on paper, but it doesn't work out so hot in practice. Both have the same spell list, both have a d4 HD, both have the same single good save, both get 2 skill points per level, and they have mostly the same skills, and you still only get the one action per round - you won't usually go through your spells fast enough for the number of them to matter. The Sorcerer//monk or Wizard//monk, on the other hand, gets a better HD, more skill points per level, all good saves, and 3/4ths BAB (plus Monk goodies).

5) Look for Active/Passive class combinations.
You basically only get the one action per round. If you have cool active abilities on both sides (this mostly hits dual-casters; the Wizard//Cleric, Wizard//Druid, Sorcerer//Wizard, and so on), you effectively only get to use one side each round. Generally, you want a side with good active abilities (be that Fighting, Casting, or whatever) and a side with good passive abilities (HP, saves, defensive specials, and so on).

6) Be aware of Power Curves, and pick a pairing that won't be left behind at any level.
At high levels, Full Casters (Core: Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid) have the upper hand. At low levels, Primary Combatants (Core: Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, and to a lesser extent, the Ranger) have the upper hand. Sneaks (Core: Rogue, Bard, and to a lesser extent, the Ranger) are about average at all levels. A Paladin//sorcerer (who migrates to Sorcerer//paladin) does very well at low-levels with magic-supported fighting (Still Spell and long-running personal buffs) and very well at high levels (as a Full Caster). The Fighter//Barbarian will be twiddling his thumbs at 20th, while the Cleric//Sorcerer will be tapping his fingers at 1st.

7) Avoid Multiple Attribute Dependency like the plague it is.
Dual casters have a problem: They focus on two primary casting stats. This eats into their save DC's. Additionally, you lose the ability

In specific:
The Druid//Wizard you suggest has issues on 2 (the classes don't particularly cover each other's weaknesses), 5 (you have few passive abilities), 6 (as a Dual Primary Caster, you're weighted for high levels), and 7 (you've got two primary casting stats).

In other words, you're not going to be optimal (which is fine if nobody else at the table is optimal). Pick a role, and run with it. Druid//monk? Works wonders. Wizard//monk? You'll want that nifty feat from Complete Adventurer that lets you use Int instead of Wis for your AC bonus, but once you've got that, you're golden. Druid//Rogue? You'll have a fun time when combining Pounce with multiple natural attacks and Sneak Attack in Wild Shape.

[Tallis]

All good advice. I had considered a monk/sorcerer, and if this guy dies I'll probably do that next. I know there are some weaknesses to the build, but I picked wiz/druid for flavor not power. I'm going with wizard as my primary class. Starting at lvl 6 means I've already got wild shape and with the natural spell feat that'll boost my AC and possibly take me above the fight while still being able to cast. I figured I'd use the druid side mainly for buffs and summoning allies, leaving the wizard spell slots for battlefield control and save or sucks. At higher levels I'll probably drop the druid side in favor of prestige classes: Fatespinner, IotSFV, and Archmage.

Actually that brings up another question. If I gestalt wizard with a prestige class which gives +1 caster level to an existing class do I get 2 caster levels of wizard? Seems like I shouldn't be allowed to, but is there actually a rule for it?

[Tor the Fallen]

If you want the best of both worlds; go druid/cleric. Two full sets of casting, some very good spells, as well as more combat ability than, well, your average CoDzilla.

You get: full BAB by Divine Power, wildshape, self buffs, more self buffs, awesome battlefield control. Before you get wildshape, you can wear heavy armor (as long as it's made of wood), and use shields, which makes you a pretty good tank. You also really only need two abilities; wisdom and constitution. You could even start play as Old and tough it out until 5th level when you can wildshape. By then, you can turn into a very brutal dinosaur. Charisma may be nice if you have access to divine metamagic. Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell is a must, well, a must if you like cheese, as you have a +6 str and full BAB all day. Combine that with a righteous might, and you've got a large Fleshraker Dinosaur all day.

Oh, you also get an animal companion who can gain the benefits of your personal buff spells.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you have Complete Divine, you can fix several of the problems Jack_Simth raises by going into Geomancer on your Wizard side, starting at level 4 (so you would be Druid 6//Wizard 3/Geomancer 3). That lets you use a single stat for all your save DCs, and gives you a lot of useful abilities to combine with Wildshape (like Pounce). Geomancer is normally terrible, since it requires two kinds of casting and only advances one, but is excellent in Gestalt, where you can simple continue to progress your other casting on the other "half" of your character.

Even though your focus is on the Wizard casting, keeping basic Druid levels lets you keep advancing Wildshape, which is an *excellent* passive ability. You can't full-attack, move, and cast a spell in the same turn, though, unless you have Pounce from Geomancer (or just from your Wildshape form), and use one of your many extra high-level spell slots to cast a Quickened spell of some kind. Two spellcasting progressions can actually be pretty helpful in that respect, letting you have both a reservoir of good high level spells, and quite a few Quickened spells (although normal spells with a swift casting time are also excellent, obviously).

Overlapping progressions don't stack, so you can't advance Wizard casting on both sides (same way you can't advance Sneak Attack on both sides). If you wanted to take IotSFV or the others, you'd have to do it on your Wizard side, since they progress arcane casting. In fact, an excellent build is druid 20//wizard 3/geomancer 10/IotSFV 7.

[namo]

The guidelines that Jack_Simth are good, but they are just that : guidelines. However you like at it, a Druid//Wizard will be very powerful. I suggest you concentrate more on one side for the spellcasting (by that I mean invest feats & gold) - I suggest Wizard. Then use your Druid spells for healing/buffing/...

Just be careful not to overshadow your party. :smallsmile:

[Tor the Fallen]

You can "stack" sneak attack by staggering classes that advance sneak attack.

[Ramza00]

You can "stack" sneak attack by staggering classes that advance sneak attack.
No you can't, you get the faster progression. Progression is things like every other level on odd levels.

There are some exceptions, Unseen Seer for it isn't a progression it is "bonus" sneak attack. Binder also works for you get the benefits from the vestige and they aren't class benefits.

[Solo]

Wizardvist for the win.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Wizardvist for the win.

Sounds powerful, but the Wizard/Swashbuckler/Duelist will be casting the same amount of spells at once and have far better base attack and damage. Gestalting full casters with the same stat gives you a lot of spells but if you're playing Gestalt why do you want to be no more powerful than a non-Gestalt caster in any given round?

[Ikkitosen]

With millions of spells you can use feats like the one that lets you combine spells to get higher level slots (I don't remember the name). That way every spell you cast can be your highest level 'cos you have millions of mid and lo level slots to burn.

Wizard // Duskblade seems like a great combo. Ok HD, good BAB, 1.5 int chasting adn all wizard spells channeled. Mmmm...

[CASTLEMIKE]

It sounds like Druid is your first choice combined with a Mage argueably tow of the most powerful classes.

Consider a Druid Spellcaster using the Variant Spellcaster option with Wisdom as your Primary ability. Single primary ability synergy.

You can choose which save is best like Reflex to complement your Druid side which gives your PC all good saves another nice synergy.

You can cherry pick the best spells from all spells lists (Cleric and Arcane particularly with a Druid side) is another nice synergy.

Taking Anyspell and Anyspell Greater would give your PC a lot more options with a few choice spells in a spellbook and 15 minutes to study the spell(Primary useful for downtime Arcane Locks, Continual Flames, Call Faithful Guardians, Commune, Divination (If not chosen) Lesser Planar Ally, Scrying, Legend Lore, Shrink Item, Teleport etc. if you are into that)

Another benefit is it gives you one full spellcaster side in spell selection you don't have to devote a lot of time and mechanics to. You should have the spells to deal with almost any situation.

You can choose two skills as class skills.

You get bonus feats at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 for things like Turning Undead (Fuel Divine Meat magic like Mass Fast Healing 1 for the party all day long or Evasion. An Arcane Domain like the Spell domain would be pretty sweet plus it is based on Wisdom for the spell use. If you really want a familiar get the Obtain Familiar feat from Complete Arcane so any PRC levels stack for improving it. Craft Wonderous Item would really extend your any your partie's equipment with suggested wealth guidelines.

If you chose the Battle Spellcaster variant you could wear light armor with No ASF and so could the Druid side because of the gestalt rules and choose a hand held weapon to be proficient in.

[Solo]

Sounds powerful, but the Wizard/Swashbuckler/Duelist will be casting the same amount of spells at once and have far better base attack and damage. Gestalting full casters with the same stat gives you a lot of spells but if you're playing Gestalt why do you want to be no more powerful than a non-Gestalt caster in any given round?

To quote Darth Sidious: "Power! Unlimited Power!"

The wizardvist can cast arcane and divine spells.

Throw in a Divine Might and a few buffs, and you're a fighter who can cast wizard spells, heal the party, raise the dead, with no MAD.

Granted, you'd be very squishy, but the right spells should take care of that...

[Tallis]

If you have Complete Divine, you can fix several of the problems Jack_Simth raises by going into Geomancer on your Wizard side, starting at level 4 (so you would be Druid 6//Wizard 3/Geomancer 3). That lets you use a single stat for all your save DCs, and gives you a lot of useful abilities to combine with Wildshape (like Pounce). Geomancer is normally terrible, since it requires two kinds of casting and only advances one, but is excellent in Gestalt, where you can simple continue to progress your other casting on the other "half" of your character.

Even though your focus is on the Wizard casting, keeping basic Druid levels lets you keep advancing Wildshape, which is an *excellent* passive ability. You can't full-attack, move, and cast a spell in the same turn, though, unless you have Pounce from Geomancer (or just from your Wildshape form), and use one of your many extra high-level spell slots to cast a Quickened spell of some kind. Two spellcasting progressions can actually be pretty helpful in that respect, letting you have both a reservoir of good high level spells, and quite a few Quickened spells (although normal spells with a swift casting time are also excellent, obviously).

Overlapping progressions don't stack, so you can't advance Wizard casting on both sides (same way you can't advance Sneak Attack on both sides). If you wanted to take IotSFV or the others, you'd have to do it on your Wizard side, since they progress arcane casting. In fact, an excellent build is druid 20//wizard 3/geomancer 10/IotSFV 7.


Geomancer does look good. Not sure I like the drift for this charcter, but I think I can work with it. Thanks for pointing that out.
I am a bit worried about overshadowing the other players. Apparently they are both warrior types. At the same time, I want to be able to make a significant contribution and I really like playing casters.

Thanx everyone for the advice, keep it coming. The things I don't use for this character I might use for the next.

[Nevar]

If you also look into Arcane Hierophant in Races of the wild it is also compliment you very well. It progresses both divine and arcane spell casting, your familiar and your animal companion become a comanion familiar and IMO it's pretty kick ***

[Jacob Orlove]

Arcane Hierophant should not be used in Gestalt, as it is a dual-progression class, and those are extra super broken in Gestalt.

A good way to avoid overshadowing the other players is to spend a lot of spell slots on long and short term buffs for them. Stuff like Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang can dramatically improve their damage output, which helps the whole party (including you) without hogging the spotlight.


Consider a Druid Spellcaster using the Variant Spellcaster option with Wisdom as your Primary ability.
Actually, that's against the guidelines for the generic classes:

If you use these generic classes, you shouldn't also use the standard character classes (or variants of those classes).
Generic classes should not be mixed with regular ones, especially in Gestalt.

[Quietus]

If you also look into Arcane Hierophant in Races of the wild it is also compliment you very well. It progresses both divine and arcane spell casting, your familiar and your animal companion become a comanion familiar and IMO it's pretty kick ***

Except that Gestalt doesn't allow you to take "dual" classes like that.

[Tokiko Mima]

Arcane Hierophant should not be used in Gestalt, as it is a dual-progression class, and those are extra super broken in Gestalt.

Well, I would argue that they aren't super broken in and of themselves. If it was then the class would be brokenly powerful in non-gestalt form.

I think the problem with a dual caster progression like that would be with munchkins that want to continue advancing as a Druid or Wizard while taking Arcane Heirophant, and suddenly be a 11th level wizard that casts 9th or even epic level spells. Because if you allow dual progression classes in gestalt, there is "technically" no rule against doing that, but it literally breaks the game for you to have a spells levels higher than you should.

This is along the lines of the same common sense that prevents you from classing as a wizard//wizard to get spells twice as fast. As a houserule I generally state that you are never allowed for any reason to have a progression higher than your ECL to prevent this kind of craziness.

[Nevar]

Except that Gestalt doesn't allow you to take "dual" classes like that.

Well now I know and the more you know...

[CASTLEMIKE]

Well now I know and the more you know...

I get so tired of reading those posts that say you CANNOT do that.

What UA actually says on page 73 is that Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations --- such as the arcane tricksters, mystic theurge and eldritch knight "SHOULD" be prohibited if you're using gestalt classes, BECAUSE they unduly complicate the game balance of what's already a high powered game.

So if you and your DM don't think it unduly complicates your game balance go for it.

[Jacob Orlove]

Wait, where did I even say "CANNOT"? I used "should not" twice, and (I thought) made it very clear that it was talking about guidelines, not rules.

In any case, yes, you can use double progression classes, but they tend to be too good. Compare the poor Sorcerer/Cleric with the Mystic Theurge/Ranger. You trade turn undead progression, familiar advancement, and possibly some scalable domain powers (ie, basically zilch) for:
Full BAB
Good REF save
+4 skill points/level (off of an excellent skill list)
Bonus archery or TWF feats
Bonus random feats like endurance and track

And that's all for free, because Mystic Theurge is busily advancing both your spellcasting tracks for you. It's not super broken as long as you don't double up on casting progressions, but it's still a straight power up for anyone who can use the dual classes.

The real problem is that it can be hard enough to maintain balance in a gestalt game, especially if any of the characters don't have at least one side worth of full casting, and allowing people who are more interested in optimizing to widen the power gap is generally a bad idea. If the DM thinks it's fine, or if you're the DM and you know it's fine, then go for it, but it's a risky path to tread.

Personally, I'd allow Arcane Heirophant and all the other dual spellcasting classes, but have them work like the Geomancer (ie, only progress one side). That way, if you want the other benefits (like animal companion and familiar becoming the same) you can take the class, and just continue to progress your other casting with the appropriate base class on the other side of the progression. This makes Mystic Theurge terrible, but lets you get the class features of Ultimate Magus or the like without piling on a third class's worth of abilities.

[namo]

Well, I would argue that they aren't super broken in and of themselves. If it was then the class would be brokenly powerful in non-gestalt form.

I think the problem with a dual caster progression like that would be with munchkins that want to continue advancing as a Druid or Wizard while taking Arcane Heirophant, and suddenly be a 11th level wizard that casts 9th or even epic level spells. Because if you allow dual progression classes in gestalt, there is "technically" no rule against doing that, but it literally breaks the game for you to have a spells levels higher than you should.

This is along the lines of the same common sense that prevents you from classing as a wizard//wizard to get spells twice as fast. As a houserule I generally state that you are never allowed for any reason to have a progression higher than your ECL to prevent this kind of craziness.

No, you always only get the faster *progression*, so wizard//wizard = wizard. The real abuse is the one pointed above by Jacob Orlove (or you can triple casting by replacing ranger with druid...).

[CASTLEMIKE]

Wait, where did I even say "CANNOT"? I used "should not" twice, and (I thought) made it very clear that it was talking about guidelines, not rules.


You did not and you made it very clear.

I was quoting and addressing a quoted post he had taken to heart.

I agree should not is not cannot.

What the OP seemed to want IMO was a Druid who could cast Arcane spells.

IMO with Gestalt using a single primary casting ability is generally the way to go with the least effort so the generic spellcaster option would come closest to his concept of a Druid who can cast "Arcane" spells since a spellcaster can do that even if they are Divine with Wisdom for the primary spellcasting ability.

[Tokiko Mima]

No, you always only get the faster *progression*, so wizard//wizard = wizard. The real abuse is the one pointed above by Jacob Orlove (or you can triple casting by replacing ranger with druid...).

That's why I said it's common sense that prevents it. You could however create a Druid//Wizard that classes into Arcane Heirophant at 5th level and Mystic Theurge as early as 3rd level. Each level of a those PrCs grant '+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class.' (I *think* Arcane Heirophant does this. I don't have it on hand to see if it's full spellcasting for both) Since this isn't a progression, just an addition, in theory you could be a 10th level character casting the druid and wizard spells of a 16th level character. At 13th level, you'd be into your epic spellcasting.

No DM should allow this to happen, and my point is that this is precisely why the dual class gestalt prohibition is suggested. It gets complicated otherwise.

[namo]

No, I'm saying what you propose is illegal by the gestalt rules. No need for common sense - for once. :smallsigh:

Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.
- Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
Arcane (and more precisely wizard-) casting is a class feature that wizard and MT share, so it is limited at +1 level/gestalt level.

So again, the reason to ban "dual' classes is the one Jacob Orlove pointed out : you can get the class features of 3 or 4 classes at the same time, when you're "only" supposed to get 2.

Yes, the Arcane Hierophant has full double-casting.