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Volomon
2017-05-29, 10:10 AM
I'm really look for number people, really good number people who can help me out here. So I've created a class decided reddit was my go to place for intelligent conversation, but almost all the conversation appears to be up and down votes...

So I'm here my favorite 5e forums to ask for help. I want to balance this character out as best I can before it goes into play.

Werewolves or rather lycanthropes have been a main stay of Dungeons and Dragons since 1975 originally figured in the "White Box". It even appears in Greyhawk setting from 1975. It even appears in the starter box shortly there after.

Lycanthropes have been a main stay of DND and our culture since gaming began. It has appeared in DND as a monster in Monster Manuals, in Dungeon Magazine, to various settings granting things like Werebats to wereseals, there's even a wereshark.

It has however not appeared as a race, class, or prestige class since the early 2000s in 3rd edition. So newer players might dismiss this class as some kind of cash in with say the Underworld or something, however it's well over 30 years old, and just hasn't seen the light of day in a while.

This class is an attempt to bring back that class, as well as give people more visceral combat style similar to the Rogue/Monk yet leave enough doors open to customize the class to a variety of options. This was designed with one particular party member of my current DND group, because there really is no hand to hand character designed in the game. Even the Monk in many ways relies on weapons due to the magic component of 5e. Here we have a similar build that can make weapons apart of his werewolf form. Bypassing but not removing the need for magic items. On the flip side you have the Moon Maiden path, which grants a more frontline spell caster with half class level spell progression. The Moon Maiden is based off of Selune, who has maidens with arcane magic who surround her but also has clerics who worship at various temples. The werewolf marry together cleric, druidic, as well as arcana abilities to form the base of the Moon Maidens defenses.

Even this class can not avoid the need to hold a magic weapon in order to maintain a even progression with other classes. It does however minimize the need for it up to a certain point. Please look over this class and help with the balance.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJWvelQB--

I'll take grammatical errors even.

Lalliman
2017-05-29, 10:38 AM
Cool concept. I don't have time to look at it in depth right now, but it doesn't look horribly broken. I do think that resistance to mundane weapons + Regeneration will make you unreasonably durable at early level. At level 2, that's like 60 HP per short rest against unprepared opponents.

Some quick things that stand out to me:

Savage Combat: "This assumes you have not taken a bonus action this turn." is redundant. You don't have to take away the opportunity to spend a bonus action if a bonus action has already been taken, because you can't make use of the opportunity anyways. You have one bonus action to spend, regardless of how many opportunities you get.

Celerity: The part about your movement being unhindered. Is that while dashing, or in general?

Beast Hide: There's no need to mention that it doesn't stack with HAM, because it doesn't work while armoured anyways.

Leap: The example given here is weird. It seems like you're about to explain how far a Nightwalker with X Strength can jump, but then you just quote the normal jumping rule.

Improved Leap: This wording is kind of strange. Maybe compare to the Bulette's Deadly Leap from the Monster Manual, I think that's phrased more elegantly. Adjust as needed, since the bullete's ability is save-based.

Volomon
2017-05-29, 10:54 AM
Thx that was really helpful, I look forward to more input when you get the chance.

Edge
2017-05-29, 01:44 PM
By and large, I quite like this, but a few points some points (this turned out more in-depth than I expected).

Shapeshifting: This feature seems rather wordy, and the hybrid forms seems to have so many exceptions the rules you initially lay out in each bullet point, that I think it might be easier to have each form as a separate class feature - almost all the werewolf form gives you are its natural weapons and the Keen Hearing and Smell trait.

Regeneration: The usual phrasing for uses per-long rest abilities is "You can use this feature (number) times, and you regain your uses with a short/long/short or long rest". You do basically say this, but it's a little bit harder to parse. There's actually a couple other features that would benefit from this, I'll note them as I go.

Celerity: Extraneous comma after "reaction". The ignoring movement effects is a little vague, and potentially incredibly powerful - compare to freedom of movement. I'd honestly limit it to ignoring natural difficult terrain, and not have it require the dash.

Beast Hide: Is the reduction in damage applied before or after resistance while in werewolf form?

Shapeshifting Rejuvenation: First sentence should probably read as "Starting at 13th level, if you have less than your maximum hit points upon adopting your werewolf form, you may roll a number of d8s equal to your Constitution modifier, recovering a number of hit points equal to the result". Second paragraph should begin with "This feature cannot be used". It would also benefit from the standardised uses per-rest phrasing.

Improved Leap: Should begin with the standardised "At 17th level", rather than "At level 17". In the sentence detailing the effects of a successful save, "creatures" requires an apostrophe. This feature already has the standardised uses phrasing - as I've said, make use of this elsewhere. Makes everything look more professional! :smallbiggrin:

Apex Predator: "can not" should be "cannot". "advantage in" and "advantage to" should both be "advantage on".

Bloodlust: "Savagerys" should be "Savageries", but it looks strange to read, and I don't know if that's the best name for them. I'd suggest considering "Instincts", or something similar.
Under Blood Dice, "Your limitation grows" should be "Your maximum number of Blood Dice increases".

Combat Shapeshifting: "feature regeneration" should be "Regeneration feature".

Savagery:
Overall, I feel this might benefit from a Savageries known cap like a Battlemaster Fighter's Maneuvers. In fact, given the high number of Blood Dice you can use between rests, it feels almost mandatory. Also, every instance of "blood die" needs to be appropriately capitalised. Most of these seem ok, but a couple stand out as having issues.
Overpower: This seems incredibly clunky, and effectively boils down to applying numerical penalties to an enemy's AC, which is somewhat against 5e's design principles. My suggestion: change this to a Str save the target makes before you make the attack roll. If it fails, you get advantage on your attack roll.
Pounce: Whole ability could be reworded to "When a hostile creature within 15ft of you is knocked prone, you may spend a Blood Die as a reaction to leap to an empty space adjacent to the creature and make a Grapple attempt".
Ravenous: This class already has a lot of healing, and this is theoretically infinite healing. I'd honestly remove the healing aspect of this Savagery, or at the very least change it to granting temporary hit points. Feature should also probably read "When you successfully hit with a bite attack made with your Savage Combat feature, you can expend a Blood Die to add it to your damage roll".
Strike At Weakness: Should probably read "When you make an attack against a creature at or below half its maximum hit points, you may expend a Blood Die and it it to your damage roll on a successful hit".

Blessing of the Moon Maiden: In general, it strikes me as strange that this is casting from the cleric spell list rather than the druid one. Is it because the former has more radiant damage effects?

Scion of the Moon: Start of the first sentence should probably be "At 20th level, you can assume". The moonbeam buff is quite potent. I'm not sure if it's too good or not, this is a capstone feature, after all. Third bullet point should probably read "While you concentrate on a moonbeam spell, you can expend a spell slot of at least 1st level to cast shield". Granting shield is a little odd as well, especially since a Blessing of the Moon Maiden Nightwalker could just learn the spell a few levels earlier. Some sort of different effect might be worth considering. Perhaps forcing attackers to make a Con save vs. your spell DC, or be blinded?

Lalliman
2017-05-29, 02:17 PM
Here's some more thoughtful commentary. I wrote this up before Edge posted, so I'm just going to post it as-is.

1. You say the wolf is on page 314 of the MM, but that’s not true. It’s page 311 of the Player’s Handbook.

2. The level 3 Hunting Rites feature says “Balance of the Moon Maiden”, but the description lower on the page says “Blessing of the Moon Maiden”.

3. I wonder if it makes sense to have both Beast Hide and resistance to non-magical weapons. They fulfil the same role thematically, and mechanically, they probably just ensure that your DM will give silver weapons to any enemies who matter, otherwise their attacks will be woefully ineffective.

4. Under Spellcasting Ability, it says you use Intelligence to set the save DC.

5. A few things about Savagery.
- Cull the Meek: I’m iffy about the fact that it uses a reaction. Reactions are for use outside your turn. You could probably afford to remove the reaction cost and add a one per round limitation.
- Overpower: This seems very complicated by 5e standards, and I’m not sure what it’s supposed to represent thematically. Why does “overpowering” someone make them unable to dodge? I would expect the opposite, that you attack with such power that armour is rendered useless.
- Pounce: You could just say that the target is Grappled.

Overall, the class looks alright. Something can easily seem overpowered at first sight, like the large amount of self-healing the class has, or the large amount of Blood Dice the Beastlord can generate. But realistically, I don’t know how it’s going to turn out. Regeneration is better than Second Wind at higher levels, but not massively, so it might be no problem. And while I first compared Blood Dice to Battle Master maneuvers, which makes them seem way overpowered, I then realized that this class doesn’t get Extra Attack (2), so Blood Dice are actually its main source of damage increase after level 5. So they’re more like the monk’s Ki, which is fine. In the end, it’s a matter of numbers, and I think you’ll need to playtest it before we can be sure how those numbers will unfold.

This class will definitely be very DM-dependent though, due to the resistance to mundane weapons. I imagine that this class would ideally be played in a setting whose inhabitants are largely unprepared for a werewolf, but will prepare themselves with silver weapons if they’re expecting him. If the DM never bothers to give the NPCs silver weapons, then I expect this class will be very overpowered. Then again, it sounds like you play with more magic items than 5e usually assumes, so maybe that will make up the difference. If you playtest it and the resistance to mundane weapons turns out too powerful, you could consider removing it and replacing it with flat resistance, a la Beast Hide, but perhaps scaling. Like, it starts at 1 and increases by 1 every 3 levels. It’s a bit 3.5-ish, but it seems like a reasonable way of doing things. Makes a high-level werewolf nearly impervious to low-level enemies, without totally gimping the attacks of high-level enemies.

Volomon
2017-05-29, 02:46 PM
@Edge

Shapeshifting, I think there's enough verbiage there to warrant placing the two together else risking doubling up on language already used to describe one from the other. The word usage and length is similar to druid wild shape word usage.

I changed savagery into brutality, I'm also not 100% sure what you mean by cap. Your cap is "Your limitation is 1 which grows to 2 at 5th level, 3 at 8th level, 4 at 13th level and 5 at 17th level. You lose these dice after a short or long rest.", also you can only gain 1 per round which means they grow pretty slowly. It might actually be too weak as the primary form of damage for this Beastlord rite. Though the damage potential slowly grows.

Blessing of the Moon Maid, the reason it mostly uses clerical rather than druidic is because of thematic reasons, the Moon Maiden is based on Selune and since druids worship "Old Gods" or nature itself it just didn't make fluff sense (which shouldn't really hinder anything) but that was my reasoning. Sort of like how the Paladin's Oath of the Ancient works, is how I kind of see this working although their clerics of the Moon Maiden they have druidic spells and they also grow closer to nature. I had considered granting them access to both schools or opening up the option to from either at a certain level, let me know what you think. Basically becoming more and more balanced as they progress in that rites features.

I'm really open to the whole area of Blessing of the Moon Maid, I could totally go druid route. I'm not 100% sure, it seems to be a good place since the class still gets druid spells, and can eventually choose two from them.

Stole your blind idea and replaced the shield feature.

Thanks for the awesome help appreciate it.

@Lalliman

Fixed most of what you said while keeping the general idea of the things you mentioned as is. I guess the resistance does need to be looked at again, that does make sense it's more powerful than say the Barbarians resistance due to when they use it it's for X time vs. the hours the character could possible be in it. I'll definitely look at that some more.

edit: I removed the idea of resistance all together, I believe the damage reduction and regeneration suffice.

Edge
2017-05-29, 03:35 PM
@Edge

Shapeshifting, I think there's enough verbiage there to warrant placing the two together else risking doubling up on language already used to describe one from the other. The word usage and length is similar to druid wild shape word usage.
It's just that for a lot of the features, you describe them and then say "this doesn't apply in werewolf form".


I changed savagery into brutality, I'm also not 100% sure what you mean by cap. Your cap is "Your limitation is 1 which grows to 2 at 5th level, 3 at 8th level, 4 at 13th level and 5 at 17th level. You lose these dice after a short or long rest.", also you can only gain 1 per round which means they grow pretty slowly. It might actually be too weak as the primary form of damage for this Beastlord rite. Though the damage potential slowly grows.
As it stands, any Beastlord knows and can use all those Brutalities. Battlemaster Fighters have a similar mechanic with their Superiority Dice and Maneuvers, and only know some of all the possible maneuvers. It seems reasonable for Beastlords to have a similar limit to the Brutalities they are able to use.


Blessing of the Moon Maid, the reason it mostly uses clerical rather than druidic is because of thematic reasons, the Moon Maiden is based on Selune and since druids worship "Old Gods" or nature itself it just didn't make fluff sense (which shouldn't really hinder anything) but that was my reasoning. Sort of like how the Paladin's Oath of the Ancient works, is how I kind of see this working although their clerics of the Moon Maiden they have druidic spells and they also grow closer to nature. I had considered granting them access to both schools or opening up the option to from either at a certain level, let me know what you think. Basically becoming more and more balanced as they progress in that rites features.

I'm really open to the whole area of Blessing of the Moon Maid, I could totally go druid route. I'm not 100% sure, it seems to be a good place since the class still gets druid spells, and can eventually choose two from them.
Totally reasonable. Not a problem in the slightest, was just curious about the reasoning.


Stole your blind idea and replaced the shield feature.

Thanks for the awesome help appreciate it.
You're welcome! :smallbiggrin:


@Lalliman

Fixed most of what you said while keeping the general idea of the things you mentioned as is. I guess the resistance does need to be looked at again, that does make sense it's more powerful than say the Barbarians resistance due to when they use it it's for X time vs. the hours the character could possible be in it. I'll definitely look at that some more.

edit: I removed the idea of resistance all together, I believe the damage reduction and regeneration suffice.
I'd actually keep the resistance and ditch the damage reduction. It's similar to the resistances barbarians get in rage, but available more often and bypassable. However, the barbarian is rocking a d12 Hit Die, rather than a d8. Having the resistance would really help the Nightwalker stick it out on the front lines.

Volomon
2017-05-29, 04:14 PM
Do you think I should keep the resistances at first level aka as soon as you get the form or just replace Beast Hide with it? Seems like 10th level may be a little late for it to do any real good as far as survival.

Edge
2017-05-29, 04:17 PM
The barbarian's resistances in rage are available at level 1, but less readily available. I could see the Nightwalker's resistances as a feature at level 2 or 3.

Sariel Vailo
2017-05-29, 04:22 PM
I enjoy what you have if you got any thought of making a empire class I'd test the ever loving **** out of it.

Volomon
2017-05-29, 04:23 PM
Not even sure what am empire class is.

Sariel Vailo
2017-05-29, 04:30 PM
Sorry I meant vampire I got excited after seeing this class.good lycanthropy I mean I had a player who would have loved this. One question on the shifting dragon born breath weapon. Works on all the forms or one.

Hillsy7
2017-05-29, 06:04 PM
OKey-doke......

First off, as mentioned by lots of people, I don't think there's a whole lot that needs to be thrown out wholesale - it's mainly tweaks and minor work in my opinion. The concept of the core class is sound - If I was being a traditional core class reviewer, I'd perhaps say there's mileage in looking at this as a subclass to perhaps a monk (The extra attack, physical skills, unarmoured defence, jumping, being fast...the Monk Chassis covers a lot of the same ground in a different way). However, full class prerogative being what it is, there enough additional details in there to carry a full class as it is, so I've no issue with that.

So to begin with, the thing that leaps out (hahaha) almost at once is the stats balance of the class. Straight away, it's geared as a Dex/Con build. That's fine. However, with unarmoured defence based on Con, you not only get a 2 stat class, but Con boosts hit points, so you get a second boon there. At 20 + 20 stats, you're hitting AC 22 with a shield. That's high.

And there's also no reason NOT to so - in the same way as making a STR monk is realllly unlikely, or a DEX+CON Barb with a shield even more so, you aren't penalising not wearing armour and maxing your AC. For a Monk, you get no shield, and if you want more HP, you've got to build up a 3rd stat (Con). For a Barb, you lose rage and reckless attack perks. The reason a Barb is built this way is to max out HP and dump DEX, but giving you a little help on the AC front by adding a primamry stat (Con). Reckless attack works on the basis of swapping getting hit to do damage. Brutal Crit penalises the shield. At the moment, Con is too good to add to Dex for unarmoured defence in my opinion. If you want to open up the STR/DEX options, perhaps link it to beast hide similar to the Sorceror's draconic resistance (Due to your animal heritage, your AC is 12 + you DEX modifier when you aren't wearing any armour....something like that)


OK, moving on. As mentioned by other people some of your wording could possibly do with a little fine tuning, but that's irrelevant for this stage.

Savage Combat is a nice boost and does different things to normal. Always good.

Bellipotent - Similar to monk. Makes sense

Regeneration - Similar to action surge. Works thematically.

Celerity - I'm a little twitchy about building another attack in here, but couldn't say if it works on the table. However, I like limiting Dash as a bonus action.

Beast Hide - DR 3 isn't huge, but as mentioned above you're already packing the highest AC in the game for a base class. Tweaking unarmoured defence would fix that.

Leap - Ribbon feature. Works thematically. Adds flavour. Always good....

Shapeshifting rejuvination - So second wind on steroids. Thematically it works, but seems like an unnecessary upgrade for the core concept of the class. Hmm...not sure if it'd affect much at 13th level (napkin maths says you'll be 18 CON by then, meaning your HP is 120-ish, and 4d8 is 18 on average), but considering this trumps second wind by so much....dunno, just doesn't feel quite right for me.

Predator - Again thematically it's nice, and adds some good skill based perks. Not sure if anyone can be surprised if they are stealthed and doesn't quite feel party orientated - but you'll have to see how its used on the table. Nothing really bad about it.

Improved Leap - hmmm....a move with a knockdown attack attached? Not sure - the CON limit helps a bit, and its 17th level....again, probably tricky to guarge based on pure numbers, but something to look out for on the table. Also you need to stipulate what the save is for the creature (Probably STR).

Apex Predator - Nice ribbon perk and some interesting potential applications. Thematically works well again.

Onto the Archetypes

Beastlord.....Overall I approve of giving more options in combat, and I think focusing on that as a subclass works fine. Most of the issues I can see are fixable through tweaks and playtesting.....the intention is sound

Combat shapeshifting - Keeps claws up with the weapons in terms of attack bonus - doesn't immediately come across as a problem

Pack Tactics - Buffs the extra attack. Yup, sound thinking

Blood Scent - Really like this. Clever idea

Primal Strike - hmmm...I appreciate it's a capstone ability, but a no-save insta-kill 5% of the time seems a) WHOA!?! and b) why would you do anything else? Maybe I've not played enough (or any for that matter) level 20 games where everything has legendary actions.....

As for brutality, I think its been largely summed up by others and could use a rework

Moonmaiden....I wont comment too much because, well, I just don't really like it and its getting in the way of my impartiality. Basically a half caster with 22 AC, hung on a chassis that already heals a bit AND hits pretty hard, pretty often.....it feels a bit unfocussed. I'd listen to others when looking to balance this...


Phew - so overall, it's a decent concept and not broken. Some tweaks here and there and some playtesting should show exactly where the options are falling out of whack. But a melee druid is unique enough to fit alongside the other classes without stepping on any toes thematically.

Good luck with the fixes....I'll be checking in again..... =0)

Volomon
2017-05-29, 06:07 PM
Sorry I meant vampire I got excited after seeing this class.good lycanthropy I mean I had a player who would have loved this. One question on the shifting dragon born breath weapon. Works on all the forms or one.

Ooooo, that makes a lot more sense. Sure I could do that sometime, that could be fun. Not sure when I will get to it though I thought this class would take me 1 day it took me going on 4 days now.

@Hillsy7

Can you elaborate on what you mean by tweaking unarmored defense? Cause currently I've removed resistance to slashing, piercing, bludgeoning. On on the fence about putting that back in and removing Beast Hide. Cause though a lot of the regen stuff looks powerful lower level, it really starts losing it's staying power around 13th-15th level I think, which is still great but I have no idea how to even it out. I'm pretty sure Regeneration will probably only be used in the lower levels, and after combat. It's basically the weak heal potions not even the good ones, that you waste a turn trying to quickly quaff down.

As far as Rejunvation consider it like this the character is in his normal form, in his normal form he has very little access to most if not nearly all of his abilities. What could he accomplish in that form other than some poking, proding, ect,. to the enemy. Although he can soak some damage and such he's likely not going to accomplish much in the way of anything else. So when he transforms he could be left nearly beaten or weaken to where he can't use his "real" form to full effect. It's also fairly weak, considering. Even with the Regeneration ability it's not that great. I've also changed the word usage of Regeneration to use an action which really cuts down and creates a dilemma of when to use it.

Hillsy7
2017-05-29, 07:20 PM
Can you elaborate on what you mean by tweaking unarmored defense? Cause currently I've removed resistance to slashing, piercing, bludgeoning. On on the fence about putting that back in and removing Beast Hide.

I'll answer the other points another time, but its 1am here.....so just quickly.

Ask yourself this about unarmoured defence - Why does a monk not have resistance or a self heal? Still a front line hitter, still a d8, AND has to bump a 3rd stat to max out AC (Compromising HP because they exchange in CON to do so). The reason is they sport the same basic AC as a plate and shield fighter AND make an extra attack. A fighter by contrast does a bit more damage (duellist) and gets 1 HP more per level, BUT can bump CON more. It's a trade off.

Throw a shield on top of that, and it's already looking like your Class is going to get hit less than any other. On top of that you are saying you only need 2 stats (DEX + CON) so you don't have to try and incorporate a 3rd. It's already really slipping out of balance with the rest of the classes in terms of HP pool and survivability. Basically, it's already a heavily armoured fighter with a few HP less, that is unhampered by heavy armour, doesn't need to spend 1500gp on plate mail, and gains mobility perks and an extra attack (albeit conditionally). There is no trade-off.

Putting resistance on top of that would definitely be broken.

By contrast, lets take a level 12 fighter.

AC: Fighter 20 (Plate & Shield), Nightwalker 21 (20 DEX, 18 CON, & Shield)
HP (both 18 CON): Fighter 124, Nightwalker 111

In a simple fight, you're probably going to break even who dies first. With resistance the Nightwalker is worth 1.5 fighters as a tank, and the nightstalker isn't even a tank.

Personally, adding resistance would be a mistake and would unbalance the class for what you're trying to achieve (as you said rogue/monk)

Volomon
2017-05-29, 07:43 PM
Barbarian has unarmored defense and can use a shield plus has resistance.
Monk also has a regeneration called: Wholeness of Body at 6th level (granted it's a Monastic Tradition arguably one of the most powerful ones). To point out is better than Nightwalker's Regeneration x 2.

As far as stats you need str for attacks, unless your using finesse weapons.

As far as balance of classes it's no different than either Barbarian or Monk in it's capacity if not significantly weaker as Barbarian could get bonus attacks constantly for 1 minute, Monk can get bonus attacks constantly whenever it wants. Nightwalker needs to be granted advantage in order to strike with a bonus attack, or use a die which might not be available if anything Nightwalker comes in at the bottom of that pack, and probably needs a serious boost.

I don't believe the comparison here is logical, the fighter has four attacks. We appear to be talking about nearly maxed characters. If the Nightwalker resisted (it's not even possible if he has a silvered weapon or magic weapon which is highly likely given the AC) half the damage the fighter would still come out on top depending on the subclass of the fighter. The fighter could be a champion and out heal the Nightwalker since it gains 10 life per round. The Nightwalker on the other hand has to surrender an entire turn to heal. Fighter heal > Nightwalker heal, currently. Even the monk's heal at this level puts the Nightwalker's regeneration to shame as the Nightwalker would have to waste 3 turns to heal and would barely gain half of what the monk gets if it rolled max every time.

The Nightwalker on the other hand would gain no bonus attacks against the Fighter, since it requires advantage or a teammate to gain advantage. He would get destroyed. The likely out come is for the Nightwalker (as he appears currently) to run and try to stalk the Fighter rather than even try to engage him 1 on 1. The fighter with +1 defense bonus would also have 21 AC. Comparatively a Barbarian would have 26 AC if he had a shield, the Barbarian would also destroy the Nightwalker. Currently even the Rogue is likely to win in a match up if he can get his sneak attack off first. As the Nightwalkers Beastlord path requires it to deal damage and take damage in order for it to use any real damage. The rogue would slay the Nightwalker in 2 hit to 3 hits. The Nightwalker would be able to slay the Rogue in about 4 to 5 rounds. If he didn't bother to out maneuver the Nightwalker which he easily could. He also currently would lose against a monk using a cap ability after he was stunned in 1 to 2 blows, I don't currently believe it's possible for Nightwalker to win against a lot of melee classes if not all melee classes unless he were to roll a natural 20 and rip their head off.

Currently Nightwalker is at the bottom. So I don't think I'm going to really consider nerfing him further. Currently I'm trying to bring him up a little to match the other classes. He might be similar to Monk/Rogue but I want him to be in the depth of the fight and be able to tank. Currently his damage is far below that of monk or rogue, unless he were to take TWF or something of that nature to keep up.

I was hoping to run into a math guru but I can do it myself later with enough time.

Amnoriath
2017-05-29, 10:33 PM
1. Aside from what others have said what really sticks out to me is what happens when this guy meets magical or silvered weapons? He has less hit points than any front-liner and is far less survivable than a Rogue. A Monk at least has the options and speed to get away, evade, or incapacitate an opponent. While you have means to recover such hit points is by wasting 3 actions just for it to pull ahead of Second Wind which only costs a bonus action. Than the other is another action with weird wording that only used once or can't be used when struck with the fore mentioned weapons. Is it going to happen all the time, no, but this will be an issue in higher levels.
2. Additionally the lack of extra damage or attacks is worrisome without some solid control. An Open Hand monk while may not deal a ton of damage always provides control with its 4th attack making it decent aside from its save or die effect. The only control this has is a 17th level ability that can only target medium or smaller creatures which has limited uses.
3. The Moon Maiden is a majorly tricked out half-caster having more spells known than a cleric. A Paladin which by many is considered to be op prepares half its level+cha. modifier+Oath spells.
4. The Beastlord while almost always gets Blood Dice oddly enough won't use them effectively to deal extra damage as Cull the Weak is the only that uses it as a dice and requires an adjacent foe to the one you strike. Both ends need fixing.
5. This has way too many sub-class levels which is partially why this class feels kind of weak in the key areas.
6. Overall with the con. modifier uses and different iterative uses of abilities as well as confusing wordings this class is hard to keep track of. It also doesn't really appear to have a synergistic set of abilities that make it stand out in a class role.

Amechra
2017-05-30, 12:25 AM
I don't have much to add on the mechanics side, but...

Nightwalker is a synonym for prostitute. It's... yeah. You might want to change the name.

Hillsy7
2017-05-30, 07:03 AM
Disclaimer: It might seem like I'm coming across a little snippy - I'm really not, I'm just trying to cover a lot of detail without resorting to graphs and a powerpoint presentation...hehe


Barbarian has unarmored defense and can use a shield plus has resistance.
It also has a poorer AC and Reckless Attack that specifically makes him easier to hit.


Monk also has a regeneration called: Wholeness of Body at 6th level (granted it's a Monastic Tradition arguably one of the most powerful ones). To point out is better than Nightwalker's Regeneration x 2.
Yes, but it’s a once per day life saver. It’s not a “turned on” thing and it takes an action. The reason it’s there is a last resort, or to take the load off the cleric between fights.


As far as stats you need str for attacks, unless your using finesse weapons.
So does the monk – you never see a Strength based monk. Why? Because everything about the monk design screams DEX > STR. Sure you can build a STR monk, but it’s a trade-off. This is why Barbarians have their main abilities specifically mention STR – otherwise you’d have DEX barbarians everywhere – again you CAN build a DEX barbarian, but few people do…

As far as balance of classes it's no different than either Barbarian or Monk in its capacity if not significantly weaker as Barbarian could get bonus attacks constantly for 1 minute.
Yes, the Nightwalker has less attacks than the above (Albeit the Barbarian Frenzy ability is a primal path feature). But if you want to address damage, boost damage. However, if you are going to bring damage levels up to Monk/Barbarian levels, then you need to look at the balance of DPS to Survivability.

I don't believe the comparison here is logical, the fighter has four attacks
1) It doesn’t get its 3rd attack until level 11. It gets its 4th as a Capstone at 20th. For half its life, it hits less often than a monk (that’s OK, that’s the monk’s thing).
2) The Fighter is a frontline hitter, therefore it must be survivable. Your brief puts the Nightwalker in the Monk/Rogue category, therefore comparing it to a fighter’s survivability is suitable, because the Nightwalker should not be as high if it’s a DPS hitter like the Monk/Rogue

We appear to be talking about nearly maxed characters. If the Nightwalker resisted (it's not even possible if he has a silvered weapon or magic weapon which is highly likely given the AC) half the damage the fighter would still come out on top depending on the subclass of the fighter.
1) Where do you mention resistance not applying to magic weapon?
2) Do Monsters ever categorise their weapons as magical?
3) How often do monsters have silvered weapons?
4) DEX is your highest stat and you have proficiency with the saves. You’re going to be taking a lot of magical damage at half anyway.
5) The basic chassis of the Nightwalker puts it close to par with a fighter because of its AC and its focus on CON. At level 5 against a Hill Giant, if a fighter has Plate Mail, the fighter is killed on the 6th attack (on average), the Nightwalker dies on the 5th (The Monk dies on the 4th). Give the Nightwalker resistance, he dies on the 10th attack. At level 8, that’s 9 attacks plays 10 attacks, but 17 attacks for a Nightwalker with Resistance.

The fighter could be a champion and out heal the Nightwalker since it gains 10 life per round.
1) This is at level 18. Monsters hit so hard at this point, that healing 10 HP compared to half damage is negligable. If you take more than 20 points in a round, resistance trumps regeneration, and it scales upwards. A CR 16 Marilith makes 7 attacks in a round, hitting AC 20 half the time and doing 13 damage per hit (or 6.5 average). That’s 45.5 DPR on average. The fighter heals 10, you’ve resisted 23 (at an AC of 22 brings that average damage down to 5.2 per hit)


The Nightwalker on the other hand would gain no bonus attacks against the Fighter, since it requires advantage or a teammate to gain advantage. He would get destroyed. The likely out come is for the Nightwalker (as he appears currently) to run and try to stalk the Fighter rather than even try to engage him 1 on 1. The fighter with +1 defense bonus would also have 21 AC. Comparatively a Barbarian would have 26 AC if he had a shield, the Barbarian would also destroy the Nightwalker. Currently even the Rogue is likely to win in a match up if he can get his sneak attack off first. As the Nightwalkers Beastlord path requires it to deal damage and take damage in order for it to use any real damage. The rogue would slay the Nightwalker in 2 hit to 3 hits. The Nightwalker would be able to slay the Rogue in about 4 to 5 rounds. If he didn't bother to out manoeuvre the Nightwalker which he easily could. He also currently would lose against a monk using a cap ability after he was stunned in 1 to 2 blows, I don't currently believe it's possible for Nightwalker to win against a lot of melee classes if not all melee classes unless he were to roll a natural 20 and rip their head off.

1) D&D isn’t a PvP game. It’s about teamwork and roles. In PvP most everything loses to a Fighter in Melee, as it should do because that’s what the Fighter does. (ironically in a 1 on 1 with a lower level Fighter, the Rogue shines because of uncanny dodge)
2) Run the numbers toe to toe with a fighter. They would be comparable up until level 11. Also try it with TWF and GWF. You’ll be surprised. Maths is fun =0)
3) Yes it’s possible to get a Barbarian to AC 24 (24 CON, 20 DEX, Shield). The difference is you have to forfeit a number of STR attack abilities to do that (While the Nightwalker encourages you to Max DEX+CON and wearing a shield), and it only happens at level 20. I have barely seen DEX based sword and board barbarians…


Currently Nightwalker is at the bottom. So I don't think I'm going to really consider nerfing him further. Currently I'm trying to bring him up a little to match the other classes. He might be similar to Monk/Rogue but I want him to be in the depth of the fight and be able to tank. Currently his damage is far below that of monk or rogue, unless he were to take TWF or something of that nature to keep up.

Now – that’s a different argument altogether. This was never about Nerfing the class, it was bringing it into line with all the others. You stated your brief was a Monk/Rogue type hitter – that’s fine. However, the attributes you’ve focused on make it the naturally highest AC going (without having to make specific choices such as Defensive Fighters or Dex Barbs). It already feels like a traditional sword and board Tank Fighter, not a nimble hitter – the regenerations are fine, but they feel like they should be counteracting getting hit more due to a low AC.

If you’re worried about DPS, bring up the DPS. But you’re going to have to sacrifice some of that high survivability for it. If you want a highly survivable tank – that’s totally fine too, but you’re going to have to sacrifice some DPS for it (and at the moment, that’s what you’ve done).

But anyways – In the long run it’s your baby and you can make whatever choices you want. In my opinion, it’s a decent start, has great potential, but it feels too tanky for a Monk/Rogue build, and adding resistance on top feels like overkill. I am only one opinion; source lots of others, run lots of test numbers, keep an open mind and happy brewing……=0)

Lalliman
2017-05-30, 08:06 AM
So does the monk – you never see a Strength based monk. Why? Because everything about the monk design screams DEX > STR. Sure you can build a STR monk, but it’s a trade-off. This is why Barbarians have their main abilities specifically mention STR – otherwise you’d have DEX barbarians everywhere – again you CAN build a DEX barbarian, but few people do…
I've been skimming, so forgive me if I overlooked anything, but have you considered that natural attacks are not inherently finesse weapons? A Dex-based Nightwalker can't make effective use of Savage Combat as a result. Dex-based builds are more durable, but Str-based ones get:
1) Claw attacks that deal damage equivalent to a greatsword, so they can deal 2d4+2+Str damage and still wield a shield. By comparison, a Dex-based one is stuck with a 1d8 rapier.
2) Bonus action claw attacks dealing 2d4+Str damage.The Dex-based ones can use these too, but they're weaker and less accurate because they didn't invest in Str.

I don't know if that makes enough of a difference to make Str worthwhile, but it's certainly something. I think the biggest problem here is that the werewolf form always has at least 15 Str, ensuring that the bonus action claw attack will never be totally useless, even if your human form has 8 Str. Taking on the werewolf's stats is something I found iffy right away for character-building reasons, but in this context it might actually be exploitable.

Hillsy7
2017-05-30, 10:08 AM
I've been skimming, so forgive me if I overlooked anything, but have you considered that natural attacks are not inherently finesse weapons?

Actually a fair point - no i didn't. I, wrongly according to SageAdvice, assumed Natural weapons were finessable. Correct, they are not. Huh....why did I always think they were???

This does in part make the choice a bit more MAD, and would bring to the fore the decision between pumping AC, and making use of savage combat. Losing the occasional extra attack here is the issue; losing access to a 2d4 + STR attack vs 1d8 + DEX isn't a problem (Average damage: 1d8=4.5, 2d4=5), and your DEX is doing triple duty (Attack bonus, AC, and a damage blocking save).

So yes, this does open up the stat dependency of the class a little. However, there are still 2 issues.

1) What is the focus of the class? The Savage Combat benefits don't give enough perks (in my opinion) to entice me to move away from DEX/CON to STR/CON/DEX. Yes, I'd lose an unlikely extra attack (Only with advantage), but then again I still have that high AC and some personal regeneration. The other option is to drop probably a minimum of 4 AC (probably more as you aren't scaling DEX now with ASIs either), to gain......

OK, hold on. This has changed hasn't it.....OK....Then yes, in its current guise, Savage Combat now adds a reasonable enticement to split into STR/CON/DEX. The extra attack is a good one, as is the damage boost for normal attacks.......the damage boost from Blood dice starts to look slightly more important as the extra attack means you can spend the dice on the bonus attack straight away. This lifts the damage up over a Monk fractionally (certainly early levels), but you take a couple of points hit in the AC dept. A fair trade off (albeit Monks get other cool attacks later on). This is much better, the risk reward decision is much clearer.

I also don't think there's a huge overlap with multi-classing into monk, though you would get a beefier monk by definition (You can DEX/CON your monk now rather than DEX/WIS/CON) and the wolf shapeshifts would be interesting.....but that's besides the point.

I'll hold on to see what the change is to Improved Savage Combat, but this immediately feels more compelling as a STR/CON/DEX which irons out the Tank/DPS blurriness.....

Lalliman
2017-05-30, 02:15 PM
This does in part make the choice a bit more MAD, and would bring to the fore the decision between pumping AC, and making use of savage combat. Losing the occasional extra attack here is the issue; losing access to a 2d4 + STR attack vs 1d8 + DEX isn't a problem (Average damage: 1d8=4.5, 2d4=5), and your DEX is doing triple duty (Attack bonus, AC, and a damage blocking save).
You're forgetting the second point of Savage Combat. The claw attacks deal 2d4+2, which is equivalent 2d6. Admittedly, it's a difference of no more than 4 damage per turn.

But yes, the most important benefit of going Str is probably that more attacks = more opportunities to gain and spend Blood Dice. Which means that Str probably isn't worth it for the Moon Maiden... which may be alright, because going Dex over Str is pretty much expected of casters anyways. That's a matter of preference on Volomon's part.

You didn't state your second issue by the way. :P

Amnoriath
2017-05-30, 05:48 PM
Okay, for all of us why don't we start from the ground up on this because there is confusing language and abilities on both ends of the spectrum that need to be addressed.
1. Volomon, you said you wanted a Rogue/Monk hybrid like class well this is more of a weak Barbarian/Monk hybrid class. Tell us what do you want this class to do and do you want to free up its flavor? As of now the Wildshape-like mechanic is shoe-horning it a bit which is also doing the same to your abilities.
2. Hillsy7, I don't think adjusting the numbers here will help here as it is hard to follow and even seemingly unbalanced abilities can't be used in very effective ways. The only exception is the Moon Maiden.

Volomon
2017-05-30, 06:48 PM
I don't have much to add on the mechanics side, but...

Nightwalker is a synonym for prostitute. It's... yeah. You might want to change the name.

Also the name of werewolfs in Forgotten Realms.

@Hillsy7 I have a hard time taking your advice without a giant grain of salt (http://cdn.mortonsalt.com/wp-content/uploads/morton-salt-sweepstakes-provides-reasons-to-season-with-chef-rocco-dispirito-2-630x400.jpg). Primarily cause your missing a lot of stuff in your points.

First off Barbarian has the best possible AC in the game and can choose not to use Releckless Attack. I'm not sure what the logic is in specifying the Releckless optional attack when it would have no point in an AC to AC discussion. Bringing up an optional ability that does nothing but add utility in a situation is kind of pointless. If the Barbarian took for example cover that provided +5 AC to his already 26 AC he would have 31 AC (If he had magic items at this level it can be up to 36 AC or higher) and in that situation I don't see Reckless Attack as a huge disadvantage as you seem to see it as. The logic here is completely out the damn window. Having two rolls to get over 36 AC? Ok....not sure what your point was there. That the Barbarian can make advantage rolls like a Boss without getting phased? Let's point out btw that even with this 36+ AC he has resistance to everything but psychic if he wants. However even if he only had 31 AC cause he wasn't using a massive tree, you have got to be kidding me if you think disadvantage is a huge issue here. Especially if he's smart enough to only use it when he has advantage, say he's flanking.

Barbarian is a BOSS, he's a macktruck with no brakes. Nightwalker can not even begin to get compared to that class.

There's a mistake in nearly all of your points, if not all your points I was going to break them down one by one but I'd rather not.

Not being snippy either, just don't think you have all the information at hand.

Sariel Vailo
2017-05-30, 07:07 PM
Bork bork im a woof im moon moon the nootstalker. I bork in the night and hunt. With woof woof and bork bork my fellow nootstalkers. I jest but ill have fun being both a serious character and a silly one

Volomon
2017-05-30, 07:11 PM
I'll keep working on this but I probably won't have 2.0 out till this or next weekend. Especially since I have to excel spread sheet this out and do a level by level break down. I might keep this one alive for posterity but it's clearly got more work that needs to be done.

Sariel Vailo
2017-05-30, 07:14 PM
I'll keep working on this but I probably won't have 2.0 out till this or next weekend. Especially since I have to excel spread sheet this out and do a level by level break down. I might keep this one alive for posterity but it's clearly got more work that needs to8 be done.

Whatever. You make i like the idea you presented and would love to test it

Volomon
2017-05-30, 07:16 PM
Whatever. You make i like the idea you presented and would love to test it

Thanks tell me how it goes, I really need some number information and playtests.

JBPuffin
2017-05-30, 09:18 PM
Question - since this class uses the Barbarian's Unarmored Defense feature almost verbatim, and neither class has other AC-boosting features, doesn't that mean it's practically guaranteed equal defense to a barb of the same level?

See, Hillsy actually saw where you made Str/Dex/Con viable and, as a result, made the class roughly balanced to a barb or similar killy-tank. You argue a barb can get 31/36 AC situationally - in theory, so could this class, unless one of us is misreading something (doubtful). Reckless Attack is less situational than you think - it can up a Barb's hit rate significantly, and if nothing's making attack rolls because they're spellcasters or dead? Trust me, it gets used more than you think. I do want to know where you got 31 from tho..how many magic items are you adding?

And I think you're underestimating your own class, along with Amnorianth - sure, it's not PHB so less people have tried to break it, but I believe it's just as possible, especially if your Barb arguments are as accurate as you believe they are. Only difference being you're making a more complicated trade-off between STR, DEX, and CON since all three can be equally prioritized whereas a Barb can prioritize DEX behind the other two without too much trouble...

Princess
2017-05-31, 10:33 AM
Cool concept and this looks like you're off to a great start on making something really evocative of shape-shifting. A lot of these abilities are very wordy, though, which could bog down play and is worth going over again. Also there's no damage die indicated for the bite ability which is problematic. 1d4? 1d6? Does it change as you level up?

Amnoriath
2017-05-31, 12:22 PM
First off Barbarian has the best possible AC in the game and can choose not to use Releckless Attack. I'm not sure what the logic is in specifying the Releckless optional attack when it would have no point in an AC to AC discussion. Bringing up an optional ability that does nothing but add utility in a situation is kind of pointless. If the Barbarian took for example cover that provided +5 AC to his already 26 AC he would have 31 AC (If he had magic items at this level it can be up to 36 AC or higher) and in that situation I don't see Reckless Attack as a huge disadvantage as you seem to see it as. The logic here is completely out the damn window. Having two rolls to get over 36 AC? Ok....not sure what your point was there. That the Barbarian can make advantage rolls like a Boss without getting phased? Let's point out btw that even with this 36+ AC he has resistance to everything but psychic if he wants. However even if he only had 31 AC cause he wasn't using a massive tree, you have got to be kidding me if you think disadvantage is a huge issue here. Especially if he's smart enough to only use it when he has advantage, say he's flanking.

Barbarian is a BOSS, he's a macktruck with no brakes. Nightwalker can not even begin to get compared to that class.

There's a mistake in nearly all of your points, if not all your points I was going to break them down one by one but I'd rather not.

Not being snippy either, just don't think you have all the information at hand.
In theory, yes, but if a Barbarian has a base of 24 he is using a shield which greatly diminishes the usefulness of Reckless Attack because he can't use heavy weapons with it on top of not having the best Strength possible. As such his competitive edge in damage is lost without them.

Amnoriath
2017-05-31, 12:27 PM
And I think you're underestimating your own class, along with Amnorianth - sure, it's not PHB so less people have tried to break it, but I believe it's just as possible, especially if your Barb arguments are as accurate as you believe they are. Only difference being you're making a more complicated trade-off between STR, DEX, and CON since all three can be equally prioritized whereas a Barb can prioritize DEX behind the other two without too much trouble...

I am well aware of the possibilities of this class especially if all he does is buff it and I have made it a point to give exception to the Moon Maiden. This is why I am asking him to revamp it from the ground up. Though currently he has something that like the Ranger is strong in the beginning but definitely lacks in the long run without all the utility and spells(except for the Moon Maiden).

Sariel Vailo
2017-06-11, 04:09 PM
Actually i was wondering if he was gonna keep going with this class i actually was going to put it in my setting magnus where magic and monsters overcome. But if hes gonna scrap it i need to know soon have some lookers. At using italso need to know multiclass r
Prereqs for it.