Need opinion on what happened

[elvengunner69]

Hey Playground - been awhile since I posted but I wanted some opinions. So I am in a group that I started about a year ago. I had to back out for a couple of months, because of some other life commitments and one of the other players took over as DM. He is someone who loves to homebrew and specifically he likes to create player classes. While I was DM I didn't allow it but while he DM'd he of course went full 100% homebrew with the group. No one seemed to mind but I thought it was a bad move since all of us where fairly new to 5e but I was not active in the group so I said nothing.

Well yesterday I rejoined the group and will be an occasional player (they play weekly which is something I am unable to do). They were 11th level so I was instructed to create a 11th level to join. I thought it would be fun to play a Fallen Aismar Oath breaker Paladin. I didn't try to optimize it but thought it would still be pretty powerful with smites and such. Quick background he was a Dragon Casualty and had been tortured and mutilated by a Green Dragon with a really long V name. So naturally if my character sees a Green Dragon he will want vengeance. Sure enough we encounter 3 adult Green Dragons and I, in a blind rage, charge the nearest one...this of course catches my group off guard except for a couple of the other players that in the course of role-playing found out what happened to me (my face is scarred terribly from the Dragon torturing me).

Enter homebrew character class player...firstly he is a demon as his race (which seemed odd to me...not a Tiefling but a full demon). Evidently he is friends with the three dragons and doesn't want me to hurt his friends (fair play) so he uses a homebrew power where he can erase all my memories for the last 7 years. I get an intelligence save to defend my self. I asked the DM if that anywhere in the core roles something equivalent that an 11th level player could to another player. His best guess was cast a wish spell to erase my memories. I honestly don't know if there is something on par with that a core player class (or even extra sources like Volo's) could do at 11th level. It seemed a little broken to me but I figured I would appeal for a ruling here.

Just on a side note -- I somehow made the save and myself and the part of the group that understood my background defeated the dragons. There is technically another Paladin in the group who stood by and did nothing - this one is a more traditional LG Paladin and I thought it odd they didn't help since Dragons are technically evil and Paladins are kind of dedicated to eradicating evil? But that's okay...that didn't bother me like the above did.

[Findulidas]

Opinion on what? Strange homebrew? Not a fan.

Stupid lawful characters? Not a fan.

Otherwise seems like the average session to me with some bull**** and a fight.

[elvengunner69]

Opinion on what? Strange homebrew? Not a fan.

Stupid lawful characters? Not a fan.

Otherwise seems like the average session to me with some bull**** and a fight.

Opinion on a power that could erase 7 years of another characters memory is realistic for an 11th level character - I think you need to be around 15th level to cast wish (just guessing). Is there something else equivalent to that or on par with that?

[hymer]

Homebrew strikes a sour cord with me in general, and making a lot of it (and apparently not with a lot of forethought), and before having played the game itself for a while, wel...

Even so, it strikes me that you came in with something of a chip on your shoulder (albeit a small one). If everyone was having fun until you arrived, and now you're the only one not having fun, it seems fair to me to say that you're the one that needs to adjust in some manner. Having a PC be able to basically wipe out your character's character is a bit of a problem, but people can do that anyway by killing each other. It seems to me that a talk about what sort of PvP is expected is in order, and you should make your choices from there.


Opinion on a power that could erase 7 years of another characters memory is realistic for an 11th level character - I think you need to be around 15th level to cast wish (just guessing). Is there something else equivalent to that or on par with that?

'Realistic' isn't a word I'd use in this context. But if you consider that 11th level druids and clerics can bring people back from the dead, taking away their memories doesn't seem entirely out of line (apart from the mind rapish elements, but that's more ethical and aesthetical, not power level).
And wish is castable from level 17 by a level 17 wizard or sorcerer.

[Steampunkette]

Generally speaking, what that player did to your character should've been the end of the game.

Not because it's beyond the houserules developed for the race/class/feat/spell/whatever. But because it fundamentally goes against Rule 0, and Rule 0.5.

Rule 0: When in doubt, screw the rules because the game is about fun, not math.

By making the game unfun for you he screwed the pooch on that one, hard. Regardless of what abilities his character has, being a giant douchenugget to other party members and taking away their enjoyment of the game is a massive violation.

Rule 0.5: Your character is your character.

No one gets to RP your character for you. No one gets to change your character's personality for you. It is -your- character. And wiping out seven years of memories is a massive violation.

[Findulidas]

Opinion on a power that could erase 7 years of another characters memory is realistic for an 11th level character - I think you need to be around 15th level to cast wish (just guessing). Is there something else equivalent to that or on par with that?

I dont like hostile PC vs PC interactions like that. Him being allowed to change your characters motivations is pretty far from what I would allow personally.

Then again who can tell what is allowed when the DM allows homebrew classes and races. Pretty sure having a full demon PC means hes deciding on whats allowed and what isnt on his own. Im pretty sure as paladins you should kill the demon on sight to be fair since they are all chaotic evil and cant do anything about it.

Did you see the thread about the demon hunter class btw? Maybe you should ask if he would allow it as a litmus test.

[Corran]

Edit: This is more of a rant rather than a helpful opinion.



Quick background he was a Dragon Casualty and had been tortured and mutilated by a Green Dragon with a really long V name. So naturally if my character sees a Green Dragon he will want vengeance. Sure enough we encounter 3 adult Green Dragons and I, in a blind rage, charge the nearest one...

Enter homebrew character class player...
Evidently he is friends with the three dragons and doesn't want me to hurt his friends
It's one of those DM's...
I'll go ahead and suppose that this was pre-planned and his idea of interesting story developement.
I mean, what was he thinking? He could have warned you to change the type of the dragon that your character hates from your backstory, or he could have given in-game reason for the other player to side with you against the dragons (green dragons are far from reliable allies anyway, so just a little push from the DM to the other player might be just enough). I am in no way generally against for DM's allowing, or even tempting intra-party conflict (within mutually accepted limits), especially if it's done artfully and as part of a slowly building up story. But this.... this is just lazy DM'ing. Very bad....


so he uses a homebrew power where he can erase all my memories for the last 7 years.
It's one of those players....
You created a background for your character and based a good deal of his personality around it, and this other player decided to try and erase it. Sure, spend some time to make up a fictional character, giving him a backstory that makes him interesting for you to play, and then at the first session the other player gives you the finger and tries to force you to play a ''different'' character. That's respectful....
And the DM allowing all this to happen (bad DM'ing at its worst!).
Also, quite a balanced and legit homebrew power. Puts every unearthed arcana to shame.



firstly he is a demon as his race (which seemed odd to me...not a Tiefling but a full demon).
Heh, of course he is...


And since I ranted about everything else, what's stopping me now...?

There is technically another Paladin in the group who stood by and did nothing - this one is a more traditional LG Paladin and I thought it odd they didn't help since Dragons are technically evil and Paladins are kind of dedicated to eradicating evil? But that's okay...that didn't bother me like the above did.
Green dragons and an oathbreaker, and the lawful good paladin stands idle...
Paladinhood at its best!

[Foxhound438]

the closest thing to this (and it's not even close) is the enchantment wizard's "alter memories" feature, which comes at level 14 and only erases memories for the duration of a spell you cast on them (so not the past 7 years, especially if you just showed up).

That said, it's homebrew land so anything goes i guess... The bigger issue here is the PVP mentality of the player, though you killing his minions or friends or whatever might also be viewed as hostile...

edit: i remembered it incorrectly, it's not the duration of the spell, it's a number of hours equal to 1+cha mod, to a maximum of the spell's duration.

[Honest Tiefling]

What the other guy did was not cool. I'm not going to defend it, and I think others put it quite well.

However, I'm getting the feeling that this world doesn't operate entirely on normal DnD rules, since demons...Mostly don't have the capability of emotions like love or friendship, and when they do, it's really messed up. (See Graz'zt and his imprisonment tag game). Maybe not all green dragons are evil?

It could also be a rookie mistake, do you think his character was trying to alter yours, or got caught up in saving his friends? Maybe that player hasn't played in any game other then with these people, and didn't really know what they were doing. I'd try to talk to him about it unless you got the idea from his comments that it was a decision made from spite.

However, doing the Lawful Stupid thing? Still not a good idea in most groups and behavior a lot of people don't want to put up with. Doesn't excuse the guy, but what he did doesn't excuse you either. You're an oathbreaker, not a moron. Get your revenge smartly.

[elvengunner69]

However, doing the Lawful Stupid thing? Still not a good idea in most groups and behavior a lot of people don't want to put up with. Doesn't excuse the guy, but what he did doesn't excuse you either. You're an oathbreaker, not a moron. Get your revenge smartly.

That's all well and good but I made my character to be cool and calculating...except when it came it Green Dragons. If he sees one he flies into a rage as the reason he broke his oath (I think this is okay mechanically if not please tell me) is he abandoned his Paladin path for vengeance because of what a Green Dragon did to him. When I introduced the character I said to the entire party, before we started, that he was mutilated by a dragon and bore a deep antipathy towards the (exact words) 'the race of dragons that caused my disfigurement and tortured my character'. I did not say what color dragons but I also have the side effect of scales (as part of the background) and said (exact words...or close to exact anyway :smallsmile:) 'that I had green scaly skin' to go along with the scars. Plus as mentioned 3 of the party in the course of role playing absolutely 100% knew it was Green Dragons and that I hated Green Dragons and would get my vengeance on them and those 3 had no problem supporting me killing the dragons (including a CN Cleric and CN Rogue).

Was I wrong in role-playing how I thought my character would act when faced with 3 adult green dragons (even if it was an Ancient Green Dragon I think he would rather die in battle trying to kill it than not try)? I don't think I did but am definitely open to a different way to react if we encounter Green Dragons again - we'd had several previous encounters before this and I never ran off into battle without warning, so this was the exception to the rule because again they were Green Dragons.

[Honest Tiefling]

Was I wrong in role-playing how I thought my character would act when faced with 3 adult green dragons (even if it was an Ancient Green Dragon I think he would rather die in battle trying to kill it than not try)?

Quite bluntly, potentially yes. There is the idea that hiding behind the excuse 'That's what my character would do!' is not a valid excuse to ruin the fun of others at the table. Extreme antipathy doesn't really translate to 'Leeroy Jenkins'. If other people aren't on board with this whole Lawful Stupid thing, then yes, you are doing something silly. When playing characters with extreme reactions that cannot be talked down, it is advisable to run it by the party beforehand.

If no one cared, then I'm in the wrong and nothing bad happened.

[JNAProductions]

It sounds like your character was a mismatch for the table. That being said, you had no warning of that, so you aren't at fault.

What you should do, in that situation alone, is say "Hey, looks like my character doesn't fit. I'll take a little time and make someone who's more compatible with the party, kay?"

HOWEVER!

Given that the player initiated PvP (and yes, violating a character's mind to erase their whole personality is PvP) is a MAJOR RED FLAG. If you're okay with that... Then play with them. If not... Make an excuse, or just be forthright, but stop playing.

[coredump]

If a *player* designs, creates, and plays a PC that is meant to fly into a rage and auto attack any creature.....especially one that could take out the entire party.... then that *player* is at fault.
Your PC was poorly designed for group play. You can hate them, you can want to kill them, etc etc. but the PC you created went way beyond that.

As for the other Paladin. He sees a ex-Paladin that has broken his oath, fly into a muderous rage and attack a Dragon. I could understand him letting that play itself out.

As for the DM..... some folks that homebrew have no ability to keep things anywhere near balanced. I would ask what other HB races and classes he has available.

[JNAProductions]

If a *player* designs, creates, and plays a PC that is meant to fly into a rage and auto attack any creature.....especially one that could take out the entire party.... then that *player* is at fault.
Your PC was poorly designed for group play. You can hate them, you can want to kill them, etc etc. but the PC you created went way beyond that.

As for the other Paladin. He sees a ex-Paladin that has broken his oath, fly into a muderous rage and attack a Dragon. I could understand him letting that play itself out.

As for the DM..... some folks that homebrew have no ability to keep things anywhere near balanced. I would ask what other HB races and classes he has available.

If I'm reading the OP right, he didn't KNOW that the existing party had teamed up with the dragon. So he goofed, but it was a true accident.

The response, though, was not. Stopping him from attacking, sure. Mind raping him? Not cool.

[dps]

'Realistic' isn't a word I'd use in this context.

Yeah. "Appropriate for the character level" would be a much better way to put it. But if you're that far into homebrew, it's hard to say. At least the DM allowed you a save.

That said, I do agree with others who think that attempting to mind-rape a PC like that isn't cool (unless the idea is run past the player first, and the player is OK with the possibility).

[Contrast]

Just on a side note -- I somehow made the save and myself and the part of the group that understood my background defeated the dragons. There is technically another Paladin in the group who stood by and did nothing - this one is a more traditional LG Paladin and I thought it odd they didn't help since Dragons are technically evil and Paladins are kind of dedicated to eradicating evil? But that's okay...that didn't bother me like the above did.

So...one member of the party was actively hindering you and one stood by doing nothing and you're all level 11?

...how on earth did you manage to fight off 3 adult green dragons :smallconfused: I can only assume the DM must be wildly fudging things basically on whim. I'd say you either need to accept thats the sort of game it is (I probably wouldn't based on what you've said of the players and DMs actions), DM yourself (maybe they continue to run this game every other week and your game when you're available) or move on.

[Unoriginal]

If he sees one he flies into a rage as the reason he broke his oath (I think this is okay mechanically if not please tell me) is he abandoned his Paladin path for vengeance because of what a Green Dragon did to him.

Err, you know there is a Paladin path of Vengeance, right?

You can change your oath to what it was to Vengeance if you want.

Oathbreaker Paladins are Paladins that broke their oaths deliberately and then kept gathering from evil sources for themselves.

[Lombra]

The slightly closer skill that allows something like that is an enchanter's 14th level ability, but it only works for few hours and can't work retroactively, wish is the next closest thing at 17th full caster level. Pretty unbalanced if you ask me, unless it's something once in a lifetime.

[elvengunner69]

So...one member of the party was actively hindering you and one stood by doing nothing and you're all level 11?

...how on earth did you manage to fight off 3 adult green dragons :smallconfused: I can only assume the DM must be wildly fudging things basically on whim. I'd say you either need to accept thats the sort of game it is (I probably wouldn't based on what you've said of the players and DMs actions), DM yourself (maybe they continue to run this game every other week and your game when you're available) or move on.

Actually I think they were young green Dragons...no legendary actions. They had a decent amount of hitpoints but with a Death Domain Cleric and me smashing pretty hard with smites and the rogue hitting sneak attacks we did pretty well from a damage perspective - it took awhile but we did well. Plus we had hero's feast that morning so their breath weapons didn't work on us. Then again they might have been adults and the DM forgot or chose not to do legendary actions. Maybe only one was an Adult - not 100% at any rate.

[elvengunner69]

Bottom line I was trying to role play how my character would respond.

[elvengunner69]

The slightly closer skill that allows something like that is an enchanter's 14th level ability, but it only works for few hours and can't work retroactively, wish is the next closest thing at 17th full caster level. Pretty unbalanced if you ask me, unless it's something once in a lifetime.

From what I understand he has a points thing -- he would be using all the points to do it but those points get replenished after a short or long rest (not sure the exact mechanic it was something the character had built).

[Contrast]

Actually I think they were young green Dragons...no legendary actions. They had a decent amount of hitpoints but with a Death Domain Cleric and me smashing pretty hard with smites and the rogue hitting sneak attacks we did pretty well from a damage perspective - it took awhile but we did well. Plus we had hero's feast that morning so their breath weapons didn't work on us. Then again they might have been adults and the DM forgot or chose not to do legendary actions. Maybe only one was an Adult - not 100% at any rate.

Ah apologies, you were the one who said 3 adult dragons. A heroes feast does take things from instant death to merely insanely dangerous. Out of interest do you eat a heroes feast every day? Seems a waste of a 6th level spell slot and 1000 gold unless you knew you were going to fight green dragons. If you did know and planned the heroes feast accordingly, surely your uncontrollable hatred of green dragons should have come up in this planning stage? Why didn't the player who was friends with the dragons step in at this stage? Why did none of the other players who knew you hated green dragons mention this fact to a player who was friends with 3 green dragons?

A lot of weird choices from a lot of players seem to be going on here :smallconfused:

Edit - Oh and a weird choice by the DM to approve a character who is friends with 3 green dragons and one who wants to murder all green dragons.

[elvengunner69]

Ah apologies, you were the one who said 3 adult dragons. A heroes feast does take things from instant death to merely insanely dangerous. Out of interest do you eat a heroes feast every day? Seems a waste of a 6th level spell slot and 1000 gold unless you knew you were going to fight green dragons. If you did know and planned the heroes feast accordingly, surely your uncontrollable hatred of green dragons should have come up in this planning stage? Why didn't the player who was friends with the dragons step in at this stage? Why did none of the other players who knew you hated green dragons mention this fact to a player who was friends with 3 green dragons?

A lot of weird choices from a lot of players seem to be going on here :smallconfused:

Edit - Oh and a weird choice by the DM to approve a character who is friends with 3 green dragons and one who wants to murder all green dragons.

Actually we did Hero's Feast mostly because the Cleric had never cast it before and she wanted to try it -- so it was very opportune.

I'm guessing for some reason the DM didn't realize/forgot what color dragon was my bane. We don't have green dragons mini's so he used red dragons and I asked specifically if they were red...and he said 'nope they are green' (or he did know and wanted to see what would happen lol).

[Lombra]

Actually we did Hero's Feast mostly because the Cleric had never cast it before and she wanted to try it -- so it was very opportune.

I'm guessing for some reason the DM didn't realize/forgot what color dragon was my bane. We don't have green dragons mini's so he used red dragons and I asked specifically if they were red...and he said 'nope they are green' (or he did know and wanted to see what would happen lol).

Or maybe he's color-blind :biggrin: