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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Warden: Full Class (in early stage development) [PEACH]



Hillsy7
2017-05-29, 11:12 AM
Hi There,

So this is more a vanity project thing more than anything else - I might look into introducing it in my homebrew game at some point for further testing if it gets that far. But mostly, it's because I had an unbridled love for the old Warden class in Lord of the Rings Online, and wanted to see if I could bring together a coherent package to fit into the 5e system, but not make it so narrow focused that it could only ever be the LOTRO Warden.

I've tried to build a chassis that supports a few different play styles, but also nudges choices towards historically sub optimal choices (Sword and board Strength builds).....most of the balance is instinctive at the moment (I've run some numbers and they're not insane, but long term it'd need time on the table to see if a low HP, medium AC Front line fighter can cut it long term).

So sit back, grab a spear and shield, and dive into....The Warden (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bkg1boQW-)

At the moment I know there's a bit of formatting issues, and I know I've only done a couple of read throughs for types, so I suspect there's plenty still in there (Along with discrepancies over wording and so on).. And alas, no pictures as of yet. But still, I'd be really interested in peoples thoughts as to how it stands as a class and - more importantly - as a mechanic. What they like and what they feel is too much or out of place. Your basic first impressions so to speak...

Thanks in advance!!

Hillsy7
2017-05-31, 06:21 PM
Errrr......I can bake cookies in exchange for feedback?

(Disclaimer: bake cookies, not necessarily distribute them)

Amnoriath
2017-05-31, 09:21 PM
1. The main problems with this class is that it is hard to take in and requires lots of memory of what you did or didn't do to match up your abilities. While I understand you are going for a recreation of a favorite LOTR MMORPG class you have the problem those aren't familiar won't have a clue what to say about it.

2. As from what I am able to gather you can inflict Aspects in place of attacks on targets and the number represents the amount required and the maximum level you can inflict on any one target, right? Now with this being said how does Aspect's Shadow and Aspect Twin(Powerful Aspect?) actually interact with them? You can already move them while losing them(wording doesn't appear to change that) and there aren't 2 of the same type.

3. As far as what I can see is that this class could be really annoying in Dueling or BBM scenarios but would easily get overwhelmed in multiple opponent scenarios which to me seems antithetical to most people's vision of a Warden. I haven't been able to calculate the combos you can make but either way this class looks like a broken or be killed scenario as such you need to up the hit die and simplify the systems here. The one thing that really need to nerf though is Alter-reality no way is any DM going to let you carry all those advantages passively. I suppose to be one check after the casting, right? Even so at will advantage in those checks is really powerful utility.

4. The other issue with what I am seeing is that it really doesn't kick in until about 2 rounds of combat and then you have additional actions of commands to really try to bring the real hits. This is an issue since not only is it frail at base but it won't be the first to act nor does it have the action economy.

Hillsy7
2017-06-02, 05:53 AM
Hey Amnoriath,

Sorry for the delay - I'd largely given up thinking people would comment and forgot to check....haha!

Anyways, thanks for your points - they largely align with my own concerns. So if it's Ok with you, just a further couple of questions on those.

1) My intention here is possibly skewed by playing and seeing too much D&D with miniatures, so you'd just drop a marker next to what you've placed the Aspects on (You can only have one target any any one time). A bit like having Hex, Bane, and Hunter's mark all up at once....Is this a too simplistic/narrow view of combat from your experience? Do you think trimming this down to 3, rather than 4, Aspects would help? Or is the problem too ingrained for that?

Also - do you think it would help to split out the scaling element into either another ability altogether (to help the learning curve), or simply into another section (So Section 1: What the Aspect does when you hit. Section 2: What happens when you place a second/third/fourth Aspect of the same type)??

2) Ah ok - that's my poor wording. Basically, you can have 2 Aspects going at any one time (increasing to 4 through the levels). If you have 2 of the same, you get a boost. Whenever you attack another target, or use a Command, you clear down those Aspects and start again. So Aspect's shadow would allow you to move 1 of those Aspects to a new target when you "Clear" them, and then you place a second Aspect as normal. With Aspect's Twin, whenever you place an Aspect, you can place another of the same type for free. If you think of it like "Slots", you can fill two slots with the same type of Aspect in one go.

hmm......I think I really need to rethink the wording here.....you're right that I've been talking about them in terms of Types and Strengths, when in fact it should be 'slots' and 'types'

3) That is kinda my intention. The Warden "tanks" through regeneration, but has low hitpoints. So it's vulnerable to burst damage and focus fire, but it thrives once it's up to speed. This was one of the things I liked about the LOTRO Warden - it 'tanked' differently, you had to think about how you started fights, you really got pay-off for building those big combos, and you had to manage your HP Regeneration along your need to do damage.

Bringing that into 5e, do you perhaps think Damage Reduction would apply better here rather than Regeneration, so you can't heal while not being punched in the face (mathematically it works the same as regeneration as a reaction)?

With Alter Reality: You make a fair point. Would Double Proficiency be more appropriate do you think?

4) Again this is part of the design intention: it takes a while to get rolling. I agree there's a worry in the level 1-2 range that it's too squishy, but you'd hope that they'd learn to open with a defensive Aspect.....Hmm.....perhaps a single opening charge-type attack might be worth adding in, just to give the class a bit of oomph in turn 1 at lower levels??


Thanks again for your time dude, and would like some more feedback if you feel like it

Cheers!

Hillsy7
2017-06-06, 06:39 PM
Edit: I've tweaked the wording on the class so it might be a little clearer how Aspects work......

......I hope.....

Flashy
2017-06-06, 10:28 PM
The natural defender feature makes it seem like this class is intended to fight sword and shield, but without two weapon fighting I have trouble seeing how it applies aspects fast enough to be viable before 5th level. Even after it picks up extra attack I'm dubious about how rapidly you'll be able to apply the aspects. How many enemies survive three rounds of attacks without going under? Is the rest of the party leaving the Warden's targets alone entirely? That doesn't make sense given some of the aspects actively encourage party members piling on to the Warden's targets. Basically, how do you picture this class functioning in the early game?

Even after the extra attack feature comes online I feel like you'd really prefer to be using two weapon fighting for the extra chance at applying an aspect.

It's a neat concept but it really seems like it's a poor fit for the relatively fast pace of 5e D&D combat. I don't know that I've ever seen an individual combat that went more than 10 rounds total, with most over by round 5.

Hillsy7
2017-06-07, 04:18 AM
Hey Flashy - thanks for the feedback. Interesting you've highlighted turn economy rather than action economy. I hadn't really thought of that TBH and I might have to plant out some maths to see how it pans out. Maybe run some faux group combat against enemies of various levels.....Good spot!


Even after the extra attack feature comes online I feel like you'd really prefer to be using two weapon fighting for the extra chance at applying an aspect.

Think my wording was poor here. Will change it. An Aspect always gets placed regardless of whether or not it gets hit. Does this affect your thoughts at all? (So past 5th level you can always place 2 Aspects per round).


The natural defender feature makes it seem like this class is intended to fight sword and shield, but without two weapon fighting I have trouble seeing how it applies aspects fast enough to be viable before 5th level.

It was intended for a shield yes, though not limited to it. It was more a feature to make a STR light fighter with shield an appealing option, and not just limit to DEX.


Even after it picks up extra attack I'm dubious about how rapidly you'll be able to apply the aspects. How many enemies survive three rounds of attacks without going under? Is the rest of the party leaving the Warden's targets alone entirely? That doesn't make sense given some of the aspects actively encourage party members piling on to the Warden's targets. Basically, how do you picture this class functioning in the early game?

Soooo....Early Game: First 2 levels before you get Commands, the working maths was you would get maybe 3 attacks (1 miss, 2 hits) before dropping a 7-10 HP grunt. Therefore you're balancing whether to open with something planned for your second turn (Defence or Attack), your allies turn (Buff), or an immediate self heal. Once the Aspect is placed, you get a second go with the bonus and place a second Aspect.

Levels 3 - 5 you get the added option of being able to burn Command points for a damage burst/longer lasting buff. Obviously these are limited early game and replace an attack action, meaning I foresee the class do one of 3 things: Aggro and regen/buff, isolate and dual, or go for burst damage on a single target. As the levels progress, the range of Combos and tactics open up along with the Archetype paths.


That was the theory anyway.....I'll certainly look into the turn economy. In your opinion, what would you say the average number of actions per encounter would be (would 5 be a decent average), and realistically, how many Encounters per Long or short rest so you think is appropriate (2 per short and 4-5 per long?)

Cheers again for the feedback!

Amnoriath
2017-06-07, 11:50 PM
1) My intention here is possibly skewed by playing and seeing too much D&D with miniatures, so you'd just drop a marker next to what you've placed the Aspects on (You can only have one target any any one time). A bit like having Hex, Bane, and Hunter's mark all up at once....Is this a too simplistic/narrow view of combat from your experience? Do you think trimming this down to 3, rather than 4, Aspects would help? Or is the problem too ingrained for that?

Also - do you think it would help to split out the scaling element into either another ability altogether (to help the learning curve), or simply into another section (So Section 1: What the Aspect does when you hit. Section 2: What happens when you place a second/third/fourth Aspect of the same type)??

2) Ah ok - that's my poor wording. Basically, you can have 2 Aspects going at any one time (increasing to 4 through the levels). If you have 2 of the same, you get a boost. Whenever you attack another target, or use a Command, you clear down those Aspects and start again. So Aspect's shadow would allow you to move 1 of those Aspects to a new target when you "Clear" them, and then you place a second Aspect as normal. With Aspect's Twin, whenever you place an Aspect, you can place another of the same type for free. If you think of it like "Slots", you can fill two slots with the same type of Aspect in one go.

hmm......I think I really need to rethink the wording here.....you're right that I've been talking about them in terms of Types and Strengths, when in fact it should be 'slots' and 'types'

3) That is kinda my intention. The Warden "tanks" through regeneration, but has low hitpoints. So it's vulnerable to burst damage and focus fire, but it thrives once it's up to speed. This was one of the things I liked about the LOTRO Warden - it 'tanked' differently, you had to think about how you started fights, you really got pay-off for building those big combos, and you had to manage your HP Regeneration along your need to do damage.

Bringing that into 5e, do you perhaps think Damage Reduction would apply better here rather than Regeneration, so you can't heal while not being punched in the face (mathematically it works the same as regeneration as a reaction)?

With Alter Reality: You make a fair point. Would Double Proficiency be more appropriate do you think?

4) Again this is part of the design intention: it takes a while to get rolling. I agree there's a worry in the level 1-2 range that it's too squishy, but you'd hope that they'd learn to open with a defensive Aspect.....Hmm.....perhaps a single opening charge-type attack might be worth adding in, just to give the class a bit of oomph in turn 1 at lower levels??


Thanks again for your time dude, and would like some more feedback if you feel like it

Cheers!
1. Yeah, I got that, but I really think it is ingrained. As of now you are trading weapon damage+feats for smaller damage or damage absorption with/or incremental riders against one foe with Wizard hit die. Numbers wise this puts them at being good against one at about around round 3. As Flashy said many encounters are half or more than half over. What is really sad is that even if your party outnumbers the encounter with 2 foes you are highly susceptible to the other one. It weakness against spike damage isn't what worries it is that it can get out-flanked easily having the wrong strategy for its frame.
2. Except for Aspect Shadow don't you already do that if you inflict an aspect against another target? If the intention is to save action economy after using a Command then why don't you just say those who are fully affected by it retain one aspect?
3 Okay, that makes it better but this is high level play and still doesn't solve its weaknesses.
4. Except for what Flashy said 5e battles don't last very long and won't have the number of players for you to be able to hide behind for these strategies to come full-circle without massive damage inflicted to you. The fact is a couple of your aspects already do this. Font of Life could be better but it isn't going to fix the class.
5. Giving double proficiency is like giving them the same Expertise a Rogue/Bard multi-class. So that is an absolute no. Coincidentally I made a modern-magic monk sub-class with the exact same name which just copied Dark One's Luck. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486232-quot-So-you-have-taken-the-red-pill-quot-Monastic-Tradition(PEACH)
6. Again I understand you are trying to recreate mechanics in the LOTR game the problem is you are for the most part of your career trading 2 or more round worth actions to gain profit from them about 2 or 3 rounds later against one opponent. At that point the encounter is likely over. Overall this functions as a debuffer pretending itself to be a tank that doesn't really control. What I think you need to do is simplify this class rather than giving out all aspects and people choose commands I think you need more aspects and drop the commands as category. Instead the would be intrinsic to the affect of the discharged aspect. Though cut down the apsect load to 3 at most. Additionally drop the need to trade attacks, just use your bonus actions from them and give the poor thing a d10 hit die already.

Hillsy7
2017-06-15, 09:48 AM
OK,

So taking people's comments I've re-tweaked the class a little and adjusting some of the wording for clarity. However, what with a lot of a) confusion about how and when Aspects are placed, and b) differing opinions of over/under-poweredness, I ran through a few simulations for a PvE 4-man party test.

So I pitted 4 Worgs against a 4 man team of a Warden, Rogue, Cleric & Warlock at level 3.

There were a few wild variations in terms of results from a couple or bouts, but generally the group won through in 4-7 turns (Depending on damage rolls). The last of these I recorded actions turn by turn and pulled out a bit of analysis.....



Class
Attacks
Hits
Was Hit
Damage Done
Damage Taken
Healing Done
Resources Spent


Rogue
12
8
4
52
54
----
0


Warden
6
4
1
31
9
2
1 CP


Warlock
5
5
0
45
0
6 Temp
0


Cleric
4
1
2
8
20
52
3 spells



So in this round the Warlock over-rolled on damage (Average is 37).
The Rogue Averaged about 6.5 per hit, though only landed 3 sneak attacks (+2d6) and rolled below average for those (10.3 instead of 12.5)
The Cleric rolled for crap, but kept the poor rogue alive.
The Worgs attacked the three melee characters 5 times each. They rolled Great against the rogue (80% hit rate - Average Vs AC15 = 55%), average against the Cleric (40% hit - Average Vs AC18 = 40%) and poorly against the warden (20% hit - Average Vs AC17 = 45%). They Averaged 10.9 for damage, against an average for 10.

So The Warden's reasonable AC helped Defence, and Immovable retained mobility with the extra save for Prone. The damage output was down to poor dice rolls and initial weapon choice (Javellin). The Warden should have averaged 38 damage (26 on Dice rolls), instead only rolled 31 (19 on Dice Rolls, or a permanent -1 penalty), but did change target a number of times (So Kata was only applied twice), once using Brott to defend against an OA attack to change target (This seems an interesting tactic to attack Action to place the Brott Aspect, and then running away, trying to mitigate some OA damage).

All that considered I'm reasonably happy that at lower levels the balance seems OK - though had the Warden changed Targets less to help out, damage and healing might've increased a little more. But this flexibility is built into the chassis. Regen is a little lacklustre, so might have to have a couple of goes at re-balancing Haran - It's only a game changer if you set it up early, or are against a "Big boss", or you pop a Command.......

Anyways - just some brief playtest info at lower levels. Might have to spec out a level 11 at some point, but then I'll have to look into magic items......

Still after thoughts and feedback....=0)

Amnoriath
2017-06-15, 06:35 PM
OK,

So taking people's comments I've re-tweaked the class a little and adjusting some of the wording for clarity. However, what with a lot of a) confusion about how and when Aspects are placed, and b) differing opinions of over/under-poweredness, I ran through a few simulations for a PvE 4-man party test.

So I pitted 4 Worgs against a 4 man team of a Warden, Rogue, Cleric & Warlock at level 3.

There were a few wild variations in terms of results from a couple or bouts, but generally the group won through in 4-7 turns (Depending on damage rolls). The last of these I recorded actions turn by turn and pulled out a bit of analysis.....



Class
Attacks
Hits
Was Hit
Damage Done
Damage Taken
Healing Done
Resources Spent


Rogue
12
8
4
52
54
----
0


Warden
6
4
1
31
9
2
1 CP


Warlock
5
5
0
45
0
6 Temp
0


Cleric
4
1
2
8
20
52
3 spells



So in this round the Warlock over-rolled on damage (Average is 37).
The Rogue Averaged about 6.5 per hit, though only landed 3 sneak attacks (+2d6) and rolled below average for those (10.3 instead of 12.5)
The Cleric rolled for crap, but kept the poor rogue alive.
The Worgs attacked the three melee characters 5 times each. They rolled Great against the rogue (80% hit rate - Average Vs AC15 = 55%), average against the Cleric (40% hit - Average Vs AC18 = 40%) and poorly against the warden (20% hit - Average Vs AC17 = 45%). They Averaged 10.9 for damage, against an average for 10.

So The Warden's reasonable AC helped Defence, and Immovable retained mobility with the extra save for Prone. The damage output was down to poor dice rolls and initial weapon choice (Javellin). The Warden should have averaged 38 damage (26 on Dice rolls), instead only rolled 31 (19 on Dice Rolls, or a permanent -1 penalty), but did change target a number of times (So Kata was only applied twice), once using Brott to defend against an OA attack to change target (This seems an interesting tactic to attack Action to place the Brott Aspect, and then running away, trying to mitigate some OA damage).

All that considered I'm reasonably happy that at lower levels the balance seems OK - though had the Warden changed Targets less to help out, damage and healing might've increased a little more. But this flexibility is built into the chassis. Regen is a little lacklustre, so might have to have a couple of goes at re-balancing Haran - It's only a game changer if you set it up early, or are against a "Big boss", or you pop a Command.......

Anyways - just some brief playtest info at lower levels. Might have to spec out a level 11 at some point, but then I'll have to look into magic items......

Still after thoughts and feedback....=0)

1. Yes, a good AC is most prominent in power in the first 5 or so levels but in your current set up using light armor puts you at 1 AC behind a full-plate with maxed strength. While fairly minor it is something to keep in mind with the low hit die.
2. Personally though you probably chose one of the easier beasts for your guy to defend against. A single attack with a prone save and the encounter comes out to CR 2.