Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight changes

[Gryndle]

Since my group switched to 5th Ed I think every member of our group has looked at these two archetypes when making characters. And every member has decided they wouldn't play either of these for one reason: no one is happy with the two assigned schools/limited choices for spells.

Between limited number of spells known, spell slots and slow progression they all feel the additional restriction to the two schools is just a step too far. I'm not opposed to making changes for the betterment of group fun. But would removing the two school restriction altogether be too much? It would certainly expand the two sub-classes versatility and I don't think that is a bad thing.

What are the playgrounder's thoughts/opinions/suggestions?

[lunaticfringe]

I allow it. It's not a huge deal for me personally. Anything they can pull off a full caster can still do way better and has been for much longer. Plus you get neat character concepts.

[mephnick]

I get what they were going for with the school restriction, but it just limits so many cool character types that it annoys me. At least allow Illusion and Transmutation. Both have spells that could be iconic for a gish class. Mirror Image? Blur? Enhance Ability? Enlarge? Magic Weapon? Why can't I have these? WHY?

[Ninja-Radish]

I allow it in my game, otherwise the EK and Arcane Trickster are just punishingly bad. I want my players to have fun.

[Ninja-Radish]

I get what they were going for with the school restriction, but it just limits so many cool character types that it annoys me. At least allow Illusion and Transmutation. Both have spells that could be iconic for a gish class. Mirror Image? Blur? Enhance Ability? Enlarge? Magic Weapon? Why can't I have these? WHY?

See, I don't get what they were thinking at all. I can maybe understand the restriction to 2 schools, but let the players choose what schools they want. Evocation is literally the worst possible school for a Fighter. Divination, Transmutation, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, all better by far. They just really didn't put much thought into these 1/3 caster classes.

[mephnick]

I allow it in my game, otherwise the EK and Arcane Trickster are just punishingly bad. I want my players to have fun.

They're each arguably (maybe not even an argument in case of the AT) the best sub-class of each class. AT is easily better than Assassin and I give spellcasting the nod over the Fast Hands and better climbing of the Thief. Punishingly bad is an odd thing to say.

[Ninja-Radish]

They're each arguably (maybe not even an argument in case of the AT) the best sub-class of each class. AT is easily better than Assassin and I give spellcasting the nod over the Fast Hands and better climbing of the Thief. Punishingly bad is an odd thing to say.

I have no interest in rogues so I can't speak to the Assassin, but Battlemaster squats and dumps all over the EK. At least in my view.

[VanCucci]

Have you also considered that they can have 4 spells of any schools, other than cantrips?
I mean, they get to know 13 spells, this means that 1/3 circa can come from any school.

[Aett_Thorn]

I'd be fine with complete removal of the restriction. Or, if you need a middle ground, let them choose which two schools they have access to.

[Specter]

You could let them pick any wizard spell they want, but in that case they would be too powerful. A good balancing point of these subclasses is that they have to make difficult choices for their school-free spells at levels 3, 8, 14 and 20. If you want a bit more versatility, give them an extra school to play with (maybe Transmutation for the EK and Conjuration for the AT).


I have no interest in rogues so I can't speak to the Assassin, but Battlemaster squats and dumps all over the EK. At least in my view.

Why on earth would you think that?

[lunaticfringe]

You could let them pick any wizard spell they want, but in that case they would be too powerful. A good balancing point of these subclasses is that they have to make difficult choices for their school-free spells at levels 3, 8, 14 and 20. If you want a bit more versatility, give them an extra school to play with (maybe Transmutation for the EK and Conjuration for the AT).



Why on earth would you think that?

Can I get a specific example of game breaking power?

A Wizard can already do that, can do it more often, and at a level when it actually mattered. Is more powerful than baseline AT/EK? Yup, but who cares?

Your argument sounds like Player White Room Logic to me. I haven't come across any problems.

[Honest Tiefling]

I would go either for changing the schools they have access to, at most. Illusion is finicky, and not suited for all games even if it can be loads of fun in the right game. Giving access to all schools is a very bad idea in my opinion, even if your group is bad at optimizing casters.

If you were real ambitious, I'd say give the two their own spell lists so all AT can have Knock, and all Eldritch Knights can get Blur or whatever suits your fancy.

[Specter]

Can I get a specific example of game breaking power?

A Wizard can already do that, can do it more often, and at a level when it actually mattered. Is more powerful than baseline AT/EK? Yup, but who cares?

Your argument sounds like Player White Room Logic to me. I haven't come across any problems.

It's not about game-wise power/versatility, but subclass-wise. If you can pick any spell from the Wizard list, the EK versatility trumps any fighter archetype, even with their little numbers of spells. EK/Wizard multis can do this, but at a cost (getting half the best of both worlds).

And not to mention the shift in power level. If I can get both Blur and Mirror Image running at the same time, with my reaction free to cast Shield, I can finish a room filled with physical monsters/other Fighters any day.

[lunaticfringe]

It's not about game-wise power/versatility, but subclass-wise. If you can pick any spell from the Wizard list, the EK versatility trumps any fighter archetype, even with their little numbers of spells. EK/Wizard multis can do this, but at a cost (getting half the best of both worlds).

And not to mention the shift in power level. If I can get both Blur and Mirror Image running at the same time, with my reaction free to cast Shield, I can finish a room filled with physical monsters/other Fighters any day.

1/Day @ 7, 2/Day @ 13 if you Upcast, 3/Day @ 16 again upcasting.... Gasp! Not even getting into Spellcasting Mooks, Counterspell is just plain Mean VS EK.

[Specter]

1/Day @ 7, 2/Day @ 13 if you Upcast, 3/Day @ 16 again upcasting... Gasp! Not even getting into Spellcasting Mooks, Counterspell is just plain Mean VS EK.

That the strategy can't be used all the time doesn't mean it's not OP.

And the point still stands: a free-school EK can actually do this at level 7 and beyond; a regular EK can't. That is an increase in both power and versatility, especially when considering other fighter subclasses.

(And counterspell is mean to all casters, btw.)

[Ninja-Radish]

You could let them pick any wizard spell they want, but in that case they would be too powerful. A good balancing point of these subclasses is that they have to make difficult choices for their school-free spells at levels 3, 8, 14 and 20. If you want a bit more versatility, give them an extra school to play with (maybe Transmutation for the EK and Conjuration for the AT).



Why on earth would you think that?

Well, this is just my perspective, but EKs are pretty much just Fighters who can cast cantrips and the Shield spell a few times a day. They can't use any Evocation spells because they're all obsolete by the time the EK gets them. An 8d6 Fireball at lvl 13? Pitiful. Also, there are only a few really useful Abjuration spells.

Compared to the bag of tricks that the Battlemaster has, the EK is a sad one-trick pony.

[MeeposFire]

Wow I find both sides to be absurd. The idea that EKs are so bad because they only get major access to 2 schools is an exaggeration. If you want to say it hurts your fun, that it is annoying, or that it is limiting I can get behind your opinion but there are plenty of options in what they already have especially since they do not get that many slots to work with anyway. I am not going to say that I love the concept but not liking it is vastly different than it being no good.

That being said the idea that limiting to just two schools is some grand play of balance is equally absurd. The two schools are in a similar position as rogue weapons that work with sneak attack or why monks cannot use armor, they are all things that people confuse as balance when it is much more about theme. A rogue does not actually become that much better if it can use bigger weapons (the more sneak attack you get the less weapon dice matter and it also makes things like GWF feat less effective even if it did work with it) and if a monk could use light armor as most classes it would not make it too powerful but it would no longer operate like a monk that has been in the game for so long. The spell choices are mostly for a theme that the designers thought to fit. Even if you open up the spell choices you still lack the spell slots and spells known (you get 2-3 choices per spell level you did not already get since abjuration has some good choices already) to really make use of it.

Also this would not make everybody want to go EK. If you want to NOVA you still want BM. If you want to be eventually really tough, play the odds, or just do not want to add any new sources of resource expenditure you play a champion. If getting access to spells was so important to a player that they would never consider any other option why would you play a fighter at all? If spells were THAT good you would not bother in the first place. The EK or AT both do not get enough spells to blow out those other options even if you open up the choices.

[Specter]

Well, this is just my perspective, but EKs are pretty much just Fighters who can cast cantrips and the Shield spell a few times a day. They can't use any Evocation spells because they're all obsolete by the time the EK gets them. An 8d6 Fireball at lvl 13? Pitiful. Also, there are only a few really useful Abjuration spells.

Compared to the bag of tricks that the Battlemaster has, the EK is a sad one-trick pony.

I'll try to answer these piece by piece, since so many points have been brought up.

Offensive: Battlemaster has the damage and nova edge over EK, it is true. But War Magic is better than 2 attacks from levels 7-10, and EK can get ahold of some damage tricks if he wants to (like Hold Person).

Evocation: EK has the advantage when dealing with hordes precisely because of those 'garbage' evocation spells you mentioned (and yes, you get to use them quite frequently). Rangers get Volley at level 11, and an EK gets Shatter, which will deal similar damage in a similar area, at level 7. Moreover, with Eldritch Strike you can make foes save with disadvantage, which makes you low-level spells competitive even at higher levels.

Defensive: Even if all the EK had was Shield, he would still be miles ahead of the Battlemaster. Add Absorb Elements to the mix, and EK becomes the tankiest fighter. If you also get Blur at level 8, then you can smash a room filled with Battlemasters.

Versatility: you can tailor your EK to be a tank and a striker, with the added options of blaster and debuffer (with Eldritch Strike). And those cantrips you mentioned open up for many other strategies.

BM's Bag of Tricks: That's 3 tricks at level 3, to a maximum of 7 at level 15. More like a fanny pack, eh?

This, of course, is not to say BM is bad, but that EK definitely isn't.

[Ninja-Radish]

I'll try to answer these piece by piece, since so many points have been brought up.

Offensive: Battlemaster has the damage and nova edge over EK, it is true. But War Magic is better than 2 attacks from levels 7-10, and EK can get ahold of some damage tricks if he wants to (like Hold Person).

Evocation: EK has the advantage when dealing with hordes precisely because of those 'garbage' evocation spells you mentioned (and yes, you get to use them quite frequently). Rangers get Volley at level 11, and an EK gets Shatter, which will deal similar damage in a similar area, at level 7. Moreover, with Eldritch Strike you can make foes save with disadvantage, which makes you low-level spells competitive even at higher levels.

Defensive: Even if all the EK had was Shield, he would still be miles ahead of the Battlemaster. Add Absorb Elements to the mix, and EK becomes the tankiest fighter. If you also get Blur at level 8, then you can smash a room filled with Battlemasters.

Versatility: you can tailor your EK to be a tank and a striker, with the added options of blaster and debuffer (with Eldritch Strike). And those cantrips you mentioned open up for many other strategies.

BM's Bag of Tricks: That's 3 tricks at level 3, to a maximum of 7 at level 15. More like a fanny pack, eh?

This, of course, is not to say BM is bad, but that EK definitely isn't.

I see your points. I think we just have different playing styles. For me, I would never cast an attack spell when I can just carve something up with a sword. The spell costs resources and the sword doesn't. I want to save my spells for utility stuff like Alter Self for when I need to go into water, or Feather Fall for when I fall down while climbing, or Jump for when I need to get across a wide opening. Fly of course, is amazing as well.

All of which is impossible for the EK, since you can't pick Transmutation spells. That, and it annoys me that War Magic is already obsolete by lvl 11, just a few levels after you get it. To me, the EK was just lazy design. It should've been a separate half-caster class with it's own spell list, like the Paladin.

[solidork]

I was pretty happy with my Arcane Trickster, personally. Also, in our game Fireball is still useful at level 11, I don't expect that to change by the time we hit 13.


I want to save my spells for utility stuff like Alter Self for when I need to go into water, or Feather Fall for when I fall down while climbing, or Jump for when I need to get across a wide opening.

All of which is impossible for the EK, since you can't pick Transmutation spells.

You can get two out of those three, though. You get one spell of each level that can be from any school.

[MeeposFire]

I was pretty happy with my Arcane Trickster, personally. Also, in our game Fireball is still useful at level 11, I don't expect that to change by the time we hit 13.



You can get two out of those three, though. You get one spell of each level that can be from any school.

Agreed a spell like fireball is still useful later in 5e. It is true that it changes in use but that does not make it useless. At level 5 it is a potential primary source of damage for a wizard. For an EK when they get it it is an excellent way for them to potentially pile on more damage to a group that the wizard is doing. No other fighter will be able to follow up the wizard AOE with an additional 8d6 damage in a large radius. That will be situationaly useful (and to me it comes up enough that it is an effective situation to be prepared to do).

[Specter]

I see your points. I think we just have different playing styles. For me, I would never cast an attack spell when I can just carve something up with a sword. The spell costs resources and the sword doesn't. I want to save my spells for utility stuff like Alter Self for when I need to go into water, or Feather Fall for when I fall down while climbing, or Jump for when I need to get across a wide opening. Fly of course, is amazing as well.

All of which is impossible for the EK, since you can't pick Transmutation spells. That, and it annoys me that War Magic is already obsolete by lvl 11, just a few levels after you get it. To me, the EK was just lazy design. It should've been a separate half-caster class with it's own spell list, like the Paladin.

Well, it's possible to grab some of those spells, as was said before. But, anyway.

Slow down. War Magic does not become obsolete after the third attack; the damage is similar, and I myself still use it a lot as an EK. It's just a matter of different circumstances. Let's assume you have Booming Blade, Green-Flame Blade and Frostbite as cantrips, like I do. If you don't want your enemy to move, you use WM for Booming Blade. If your enemy has another enemy within 5 feet of it, use WM with GFB. If you want to give a creature disadvantage on an attack (maybe to protect a friend), you use WM with Frostbite. It becomes strategic, not obsolete.

[Zorku]

"What they were going for" with arcane trickster is pretty clear. You get illusion school magic because "invisible" and enchantment is your charm person and sleep stuff. All of the most obvious stuff for getting past guards sits in these schools, so if a rogue looked at magic and asked "how is this useful to me?" then boom, that's what you get. "I can manipulate people with this? Perfect." "They'll never see that coming."

With EK you get most of the magical armor and protection stuff out of abjuration, and evocation hands you the keys to all the elemental damage stuffs. Again, look at your typical fighter and listen to them ask "how is this useful to me?" Shrug off hits? Yeah, I like doing that, but you're telling me I can do it in new ways with magic? Sign me up. Hitting a guy, except instead of with a sword it's with a hammer made out of lightning? I'll take one of those too.

These are the most blatant schools to give to each class. The stereotype who decides to also use magic to do their job would pick these exact things... and you get a couple of spells out of other schools so that you can enlarge yourself when you run into combat or so that you can have a rat familiar that cases a joint for you while you're drinking in a nearby establishment, with no one being the wiser.


Sell me on a magical rogue archetype that skips over invisibility and all of the manipulation/control stuff from enchantment, and a fighter archetype who does not cast any kind of shield spell, and does not hit folks with elemental damage. Do these ideas make more sense to have in the PHB?



That said, I think that the school restriction isn't entirely about reigning in the power of these classes. I wouldn't be surprised if the goal was to just spit out a more manageable list of spells, for the folks that like the idea of magic, but don't want to read/memorize a third of the book just to know what their options are. The index that we got doesn't really make this much easier on anybody that doesn't already know most of the spells, but the folks designing the classes wouldn't necessarily have known that they were never going to get to cram a quick-build list into the book, especially if these ideas came as early on in the development process as you would expect to see ideas for the fighter and the rogue.

*I didn't touch the game at all when it was D&DNext, so there's probably some insight to be gleaned from that phase of development, that might sink of float this idea...

[Gryndle]

"What they were going for" with arcane trickster is pretty clear. You get illusion school magic because "invisible" and enchantment is your charm person and sleep stuff. All of the most obvious stuff for getting past guards sits in these schools, so if a rogue looked at magic and asked "how is this useful to me?" then boom, that's what you get. "I can manipulate people with this? Perfect." "They'll never see that coming."

With EK you get most of the magical armor and protection stuff out of abjuration, and evocation hands you the keys to all the elemental damage stuffs. Again, look at your typical fighter and listen to them ask "how is this useful to me?" Shrug off hits? Yeah, I like doing that, but you're telling me I can do it in new ways with magic? Sign me up. Hitting a guy, except instead of with a sword it's with a hammer made out of lightning? I'll take one of those too.

These are the most blatant schools to give to each class. The stereotype who decides to also use magic to do their job would pick these exact things... and you get a couple of spells out of other schools so that you can enlarge yourself when you run into combat or so that you can have a rat familiar that cases a joint for you while you're drinking in a nearby establishment, with no one being the wiser.


Sell me on a magical rogue archetype that skips over invisibility and all of the manipulation/control stuff from enchantment, and a fighter archetype who does not cast any kind of shield spell, and does not hit folks with elemental damage. Do these ideas make more sense to have in the PHB?



That said, I think that the school restriction isn't entirely about reigning in the power of these classes. I wouldn't be surprised if the goal was to just spit out a more manageable list of spells, for the folks that like the idea of magic, but don't want to read/memorize a third of the book just to know what their options are. The index that we got doesn't really make this much easier on anybody that doesn't already know most of the spells, but the folks designing the classes wouldn't necessarily have known that they were never going to get to cram a quick-build list into the book, especially if these ideas came as early on in the development process as you would expect to see ideas for the fighter and the rogue.

*I didn't touch the game at all when it was D&DNext, so there's probably some insight to be gleaned from that phase of development, that might sink of float this idea...


I think the biggest reasons we are all (speaking for my group only) disappointed in Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster has nothing to do with overall power level. Its that each one of us has had the same initial response to the two sub-classes. Initial excitement-Ooh subclasses that represent the classic AD&D Fighter/mage or Thief/Mage....and then Disappointment when reading on and finding out that no they don't. Or more accurately each one pigeon holes you into one particular type of the fighter/mage or thief/mage combo, and if you don't want to be forced into those two types then your out of luck with the two subclasses as written.

Our group doesn't like the multiclass rules very much. We haven't banned multi-classing, but no one wants to multi-class as it is written. And that is why the Eldritch Knight & Arcane Trickster have come up again and again, and been discarded again and again.

[SharkForce]

i think a fighter that ignores evocation entirely in favour of self-buffs (fly, haste, enlarge/reduce, etc) makes at least as much sense, and probably more, personally. why is the fighter who spent years training with weapons so interested in using something else that does not benefit from the fighter's knowledge of weapons in the slightest for offense? if the fighter thinks evocation magic is a better weapon, why is the fighter not a wizard? in contrast, there is certainly room to argue that through the use of buffs, a fighter can become a superior fighter. a hasted fighter is getting more attacks and has more mobility. a flying fighter can either use the preferred melee weapons against flying opponents, or can use their preferred ranged weapons against helpless melee creatures on the ground. an enlarged fighter can grapple a hill giant. a reduced fighter can fight without disadvantage in tight spaces. and so on.

in short, the buff-oriented fighter feels a lot more like a magical fighter than the one who occasionally stops doing fighter things and just lobs a fireball at enemies.

[Gryndle]

i think a fighter that ignores evocation entirely in favour of self-buffs (fly, haste, enlarge/reduce, etc) makes at least as much sense, and probably more, personally. why is the fighter who spent years training with weapons so interested in using something else that does not benefit from the fighter's knowledge of weapons in the slightest for offense? if the fighter thinks evocation magic is a better weapon, why is the fighter not a wizard? in contrast, there is certainly room to argue that through the use of buffs, a fighter can become a superior fighter. a hasted fighter is getting more attacks and has more mobility. a flying fighter can either use the preferred melee weapons against flying opponents, or can use their preferred ranged weapons against helpless melee creatures on the ground. an enlarged fighter can grapple a hill giant. a reduced fighter can fight without disadvantage in tight spaces. and so on.

in short, the buff-oriented fighter feels a lot more like a magical fighter than the one who occasionally stops doing fighter things and just lobs a fireball at enemies.

same reason a soldier might want a grenade. sometimes it makes more sense to bring pain in a non-linear way