How useful is invisibilty with 0 move silently?

[magicalmagicman]

I know it is useful with 0 hide. You need a 40dc spot check to pin point an invisible creature within 30ft of you, but what about move silently? You just need to beat the check by 20dc to pin point.

Oh and those of you who say "just fly", by RAW d&d any movement, magical or otherwise, requires a move silently check XD.

[Bakkan]

Even if an opponent (who doesn't see invisible) knows where you are, you still have a 50% miss chance against him, so it's still a good spell.

[Allanimal]

Even if an opponent (who doesn't see invisible) knows where you are, you still have a 50% miss chance against him, so it's still a good spell.

And you can't get sneak attacked. And a few other nice things.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility


Invisibility
Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).


A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.

[RoboEmperor]

It also prevents targeting spells.

[DEMON]

I know it is useful with 0 hide. You need a 40dc spot check to pin point an invisible creature within 30ft of you, but what about move silently? You just need to beat the check by 20dc to pin point.

Oh and those of you who say "just fly", by RAW d&d any movement, magical or otherwise, requires a move silently check XD.

Attacking as invisible gives you a +2 bonus and denies the target it's dexterity bonus, also useful for a Beguiler casting a spell.

It's also really good when you don't actually move. Or when you're also hit by a Silence spell.

[NomGarret]

Besides there are plenty of times the ambient noise will tip the DC in your favor. You might not sneak past the silent guard dogs, but you'll have a shot at getting through the noisy tavern.

[Psyren]

If you're worried about being heard, just drink a potion of Silence (or UMD a wand) after you turn invisible, problem solved.

[magicalmagicman]

I'm trying to use invisibility defensively, in a fight, since my character is a buffer/summoner, not for stealth, but if every creature can pin point my wizard with barely any ranks in listen then I thought it kind of makes it useless.

[DeTess]

I'm trying to use invisibility defensively, in a fight, since my character is a buffer/summoner, not for stealth, but if every creature can pin point my wizard with barely any ranks in listen then I thought it kind of makes it useless.

Those enemies need to beat the move silent check of your wizard by 20 to pinpoint you. Going strictly by averages, this means that the enemy needs 20 more ranks (or other bonuses) in listen than you have, so I'd say most creatures won't be able to pinpoint you. Even if they could, there's still the miss-chance on any attacks aimed at you.

[SangoProduction]

Now, there is a feat (which no monster has by default) which lets someone pinpoint you easily. But yeah, I think there's still the miss chance for that. Dont' quote me on that.

[NomGarret]

In which case, the monster has spent a feat or two countering your tactic you spent a spell on. Good job. Those are feats they didn't spend improving their punching or decreasing their punchability. And feats are more expensive than spells, your party came out ahead.

[Psyren]

I'm trying to use invisibility defensively, in a fight, since my character is a buffer/summoner, not for stealth, but if every creature can pin point my wizard with barely any ranks in listen then I thought it kind of makes it useless.

Without Blindsense or an Epic Listen check, they can't pinpoint you. They simply know you're there (somewhere.)

But again, Potion of Silence solves your problem, no muss no fuss.

[magicalmagicman]

Without Blindsense or an Epic Listen check, they can't pinpoint you. They simply know you're there (somewhere.)

But again, Potion of Silence solves your problem, no muss no fuss.

Wouldn't potion of silence kill my spellcasting?

Beating a creature's move silently by 20 does let them pinpoint.

It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

At higher levels every creature has like 10-20 points in listen which is one of the things that bothered me.

[Psyren]

Wouldn't potion of silence kill my spellcasting?

Not with Silent Spell or Psychic Magic. Or just get past the things looking for you and then cast, you can dismiss Silence whenever is feasible.

[Deeds]

The invisible spell is handy for other targets such as your allies and your pants.

[Allanimal]

you can dismiss Silence whenever is feasible.

Well... not really. Unless I'm missing something here.


Silence
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2
Components: V, S
...
Duration: 1 min./level (D)



(D) Dismissible
If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell’s effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell’s verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Silence has a verbal component, therefore to dismiss, you need to speak the words of dismissal. Since you can't speak, due to the silence, it isn't dismissible.

But it has (D) in he duration, so it is dismissible, I just don't know how to do it.

Edit: is this in one of the disfunctional rules threads already?

[SangoProduction]

Well... not really. Unless I'm missing something here.





Silence has a verbal component, therefore to dismiss, you need to speak the words of dismissal. Since you can't speak, due to the silence, it isn't dismissible.

But it has (D) in he duration, so it is dismissible, I just don't know how to do it.

Edit: is this in one of the disfunctional rules threads already?

No, silence applies a spell failure chance. It doesn't prevent it.

[Psyren]

Edit: is this in one of the disfunctional rules threads already?

It is dysfunctional - but technically, nothing says you can't verbally dismiss spells even when you're silenced. It says clearly and unequivocally that you can't cast spells with a verbal component while silenced, but it says nothing about dismissing them.

[Gildedragon]

Cast silence on a pebble. Toss or store away pebble to be rid of the silence.

[Allanimal]

No, silence applies a spell failure chance. It doesn't prevent it.

Citation needed.


All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area.

[SangoProduction]

It is dysfunctional - but technically, nothing says you can't verbally dismiss spells even when you're silenced. It says clearly and unequivocally that you can't cast spells with a verbal component while silenced, but it says nothing about dismissing them.

...Oh. I think I'm thinking of deafened.

[Psyren]

Citation needed.

Right, but you're not casting a spell though, are you?


Cast silence on a pebble. Toss or store away pebble to be rid of the silence.

The original suggestion was for a potion, but an oil should work well too, yeah.

[KillianHawkeye]

Silence requiring a verbal component to dismiss isn't a rules dysfunction. It's quite easy to be outside the spell's area if you don't cast it on yourself directly, such as by casting it on another creature, an object, or a designated point in space. The likely expectation is that the spell is used offensively to neuter enemy spellcasters, while its potential utility as a stealth spell is more of a side effect.

[One Step Two]

Not with Silent Spell or Psychic Magic. Or just get past the things looking for you and then cast, you can dismiss Silence whenever is feasible.

Actually, the best trick when using the Silence spell, is to cast it on a pebble, and carry it in your open palm. When you want to make noise, such as to cast or dismiss, simply close your hand around it. This blocks the Emanations Line of Effect, containing the Silence, letting you act freely.

[Psyren]

Actually, the best trick when using the Silence spell, is to cast it on a pebble, and carry it in your open palm. When you want to make noise, such as to cast or dismiss, simply close your hand around it. This blocks the Emanations Line of Effect, containing the Silence, letting you act freely.

Well, I've always looked a bit askance at blocking an emanation with yourself and then declaring that yourself is safe from it.

Placing the pebble on the ground and putting your hat or bag over it should be beyond reproach though.

[One Step Two]

Well, I've always looked a bit askance at blocking an emanation with yourself and then declaring that yourself is safe from it.

Placing the pebble on the ground and putting your hat or bag over it should be beyond reproach though.

Okay maybe not using your own hand, but slipping it into a scroll case or other small container should still work if you want to carry it on your person. Like covering a light source.

[magicalmagicman]

All these pebbles use a move action. I was planning on casting a spell (0 DC listen check) then moving after.

[One Step Two]

All these pebbles use a move action. I was planning on casting a spell (0 DC listen check) then moving after.

Ooh, how about a tiny yo-yo you can keep in the palm of your hand, the string on your finger? You cast silence on it beforehand. You can drop the item as a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#dropanItem), but you can carry it with you as you move :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

If you cast Silence on a potion bottle, you can retrieve it from a potion belt (FRCS) as a free action. You can then drop it as another free action - it will shatter, but will do silently since the spell isn't gone until the item is.

There might be a way to stow items as a free action that would work better.

[Gildedragon]

Give the pebble to your familiar. Have it ready an action to fly off on your mental command

[Jowgen]

Can we take a moment to appreciate the weirdness that Invisibility foils Favored Enemy, even though it's no longer precision based damage as of 3.5, and Total Concealment does nothing of the sort? :smallconfused:

[zergling.exe]

Can we take a moment to appreciate the weirdness that Invisibility foils Favored Enemy, even though it's no longer precision based damage as of 3.5, and Total Concealment does nothing of the sort? :smallconfused:

Darkness rules call Favored Enemy damage as precision damage:
Creatures blinded by darkness lose the ability to deal extra damage due to precision (for example, a ranger’s favored enemy or a sneak attack).

Manyshot is also the only place in the PHB that calls sneak attack out as precision damage. :smallconfused:

Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack damage) only once.

In fact, the only other place I'd think to look that spells it out it is the Rules Compendium. Ninja or Scout may say something, but those wouldn't be my go-to to find out whether sneak attack is precision.