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Otto-Sieve
2007-08-02, 08:35 PM
I have a few questions that i would like answered.

1. What is a scout better at, Melee or Ranged??

2. If it's melee, what are some good feat choices?( that aren't TWF), like power attack and spring attack, etc.

3. if it's ranged, what is better for a scout 20, Improved Manyshot w/ a bow, or Crossbow and shot on the run, and crossbow sniper?? Because Scouts don't get that much BaB as other classes, and Imp. Manyshot reqiures a bunch.

If you have any suggestions please send them this way, for they will be greatly appreciated. :smallsmile:

Damionte
2007-08-02, 08:45 PM
You've pretty much figured it out already. Scouts are built for stick and move. Spring Attack, Shot On The Run, Fly By Attack.

Ranged or mellee depends on your preference and your normal environment. To be honest you can spec for both. Spring attack & Shot on the run have many of the same pre-requesites and scouts get enough bonus feats to do both.

Droodle
2007-08-02, 08:49 PM
You'll get the most mileage out of a greater manyshot build.....especially if you've got Ranger levels and the swift hunter feat.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-02, 09:01 PM
The main problem of the Scout is the 10' movement requirement for skirmish to kick in. If you can solve this problem the Scout can be much more effective. One solution is to take a Monk level and train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master to allow taking a 10' step in place of a 5' step. Then the Scout can full attack and apply skirmish damage. Another solution is a straight DC40 Tumble check to make a 10' tumbling adjustment (from the Extreme Tumbling table in Oriental Adventures). Making a 10' adjustment then full attacking in melee means you'll be right in the face of an enemy afterward, so your AC needs to be quite high -- which is difficult for a Scout.

The ranged weapon approach is safer but has more obstacles. You can take Greater Manyshot to let you apply skirmish damage to each arrow you fire with Manyshot (as a standard action), but this 4-feat tree also requires Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot. Again solving the 10' move problem makes the Scout more effective; they can take a 10' step and then full attack with a bow without needing all these feats.

I assume you're talking about improving a Scout 20 to level 21, because you can't take the Epic feat Improved Manyshot before that level. In any case Greater Manyshot is superior if you have precision damage (skirmish for a Scout). Read about this feat here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot).

Person_Man
2007-08-02, 10:43 PM
Having played through a lot of levels as a pure Scout, I highly preferred range. Virtually all of your class abilities are built around mobility and staying away from enemies. Why on earth, with your light armor, mediocre hit points, and sub-par BAB, would you risk melee combat?

Having said that, I've seen some interesting Tome of Battle/Scout melee builds that rock pretty hard. But they mostly use 5-6 levels of Scout, and 14-15 levels of something else.

If you go ranged:

Greater Manyshot feat: Precision Damage to all shots.

Improved Skirmish feat: +2d6 Skirmish. Complete Scoundrel.

Precise Shot feat: required for...

Splitting Arrows enchantment: Double the number of arrows you fire. Champions of Ruin

Dragon Devotee PrC: +2d6 Skirmish, +2 Str/Dex/Cha, just 5 levels. Races of the Dragon.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-03, 12:08 AM
Is the bow that much superior to the crossbow in damage?
Let's just say i took crossbow and all crossbow related feats ( Crossbow sniper, etc.), would it still pale in comparison to the Bow with manyshot??




Any comments will be appreciated. :smallbiggrin:

Aximili
2007-08-03, 12:10 AM
Dragon Devotee PrC: +2d6 Skirmish, +2 Str/Dex/Cha, just 5 levels. Races of the Dragon.
Str/Con/Cha, actually.
Big difference for an archer, but still a great option.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-03, 12:37 AM
Is the bow that much superior to the crossbow in damage?
Let's just say i took crossbow and all crossbow related feats ( Crossbow sniper, etc.), would it still pale in comparison to the Bow with manyshot??




Any comments will be appreciated. :smallbiggrin:

Well with the bow feats out there that let you make extra attacks, it is really the only accessable way for scouts to get their extra damage multiple times.

I always liked melee scouts because they were fun to play, but mechanically ranged scouts tend to be better.

Aximili
2007-08-03, 12:51 AM
The only way to make a mechanically reasonable melee scout, is to go with the Riposte variant (Cityscape) and invest in TWF (and CON). But it still lacks behind the Archer Scout.

I played one once and had quite some fun. I've always liked twin short-sword wielders.:smallbiggrin:

Whiplord
2007-08-03, 12:57 AM
This was breifly mentioned before, but i'll elaborate, since it should be said. Pretty much the golden archer build is Scout 4/Ranger 16 with the Swift Hunter Feat. The feat allows your levels to stack for the purpose of Skirmish and Favored Enemy. This is good, as the favored enemies will allow you some bonuses against types of enemies that you normally can't skirmish (undead, plant, elemental, construct, ooze are all the types that skirmish won't work against I believe; the main ones at least.)

That will most likely end up being a better option than straight scout 20.

Damionte
2007-08-03, 01:04 AM
The bow is not really superior in damage, it's easier to use for characters who are proficient with martial weapons.

Cross Bows can do the rapid shot many shot feats as well, but require one more feat. <Rapid reload>, to do it. Even then you'll only be able to do it with light cross bows or smaller.

Cross bows don't do multi atacks for free the way bows do. That's why bows are martial weapons and crossbows are simple.

You use crossbows when you simply want that flavor, or when your class does not gain martial weapon profeciency. for instance, making a cleric archer of pelor.

Aximili
2007-08-03, 01:22 AM
Cross Bows can do the rapid shot many shot feats as well, ...


As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).
Arrows.
Not bolts, not projectiles, but arrows. So, if you wanna apply Manyshot to your crossbow, you're gonna need to be able to fire arrows with it.:smalltongue:

Damionte
2007-08-03, 01:48 AM
So fire arrows from it or just ignore the RAW.

lord_khaine
2007-08-03, 04:07 AM
the big advantage of Bows is you can use your str bonus on them.

its_all_ogre
2007-08-03, 04:37 AM
the real question here is what do you want to do? melee or ranged?
either can be made well, from a power attacking leap attack shock trooper to a ranged attacker.
so let us know which one and no doubt somebody will have some nice ideas for you!
and many shot with a crossbow is just plain silly, do not do this.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-03, 05:52 AM
Don't use the splitting enchantment unless you wish to drown in cheese. And not good cheese either.

Ranged scouts are just better.

For a melee scout get the Snap Kick feat. It'll allow you an extra attack even on a standard action, so you can run around like a nutter getting 2 skirmish attacks.

The Glyphstone
2007-08-03, 05:59 AM
You can also get the Ebberon Magical Roller SkatesTM - they were in some WoTC web enhancement...

Darrin
2007-08-03, 08:20 AM
Having said that, I've seen some interesting Tome of Battle/Scout melee builds that rock pretty hard. But they mostly use 5-6 levels of Scout, and 14-15 levels of something else.


I was going to extoll the virtues of the White Raven stance, "Press the Advantage", but it requires an Initiator Level of 9, so it takes a while for a scout to get it. Then it occurred to me that a one-level dip into Warblade might be all you need:

Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1) allows you to jump as a swift action. Jumping 5' without a running start is a DC 10, fairly easy even at low levels. So, take a 5' step away from your opponent, then jump another 5' back into melee range, and enjoy your skirmish damage. Works for both melee and ranged, actually, and only requries one feat (Martial Study) for non-Martial Adepts. Scout 1/WB 1/Ranger 18 also still works for full skirmish damage.

Not quite usable every round, however. But there are several ways to get an extra 5' step in a round (Evasive Reflexes, Elusive Target, etc.).

Droodle
2007-08-03, 08:59 AM
Scout 1/WB 1/Ranger 18 also still works for full skirmish damage. You need 2d6 skirmish in order to qualify for the swift hunter feat. Unless you are trying to use Assassin's stance to pull it off (I don't know if it counts as skirmish damage), you're gonna need 3 scout levels.

its_all_ogre
2007-08-03, 09:10 AM
5 scout levels i think you'll find:smallbiggrin:

bigbaddragon
2007-08-03, 09:10 AM
For a melee scout get the Snap Kick feat. It'll allow you an extra attack even on a standard action, so you can run around like a nutter getting 2 skirmish attacks.

Which book is this feat in?



You need 2d6 skirmish in order to qualify for the swift hunter feat.

You need only d6 for Swift Hunter, 2d6 is for Improved Skirmish.

Edit: but one scout level still wouldn't be enough for Swift Hunter cos you also need +1 AC from Skirmish which you gain at Scout 3 I think.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-03, 09:13 AM
Which book is this feat in?

Tome of Battle.

Zim
2007-08-03, 09:39 AM
An interesting melee scout build it the fighter (high STR) or swashbuckler (High DEX & INT)/scout/dervish build. Does some serious hurty damage, especially with keen/improved crit scimitars.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-03, 09:42 AM
To answer the question, i want to be ranged, but i can't decide on which weapon to use. I want to use the bow becasue of the superior damage potential, but also i don't want my scout to have a ranger feel or look.

I'm sorry, but i don't want any ranger levels,or ranger flavor, i want to be a scout 20.

Quietus
2007-08-03, 09:49 AM
To answer the question, i want to be ranged, but i can't decide on which weapon to use. I want to use the bow becasue of the superior damage potential, but also i don't want my scout to have a ranger feel or look.

I'm sorry, but i don't want any ranger levels,or ranger flavor, i want to be a scout 20.

Both the Ranger and the Scout are meant to be the "Sneaky outdoorsy guy" classes. Their flavor is, unfortunately, extremely similar. If you're set on scout20, as people have said, Greater Manyshot is the way to go, but requires using a bow. Depending on houserules, you might be able to get your DM to give you the ability, if you take two-weapon fighting, to make an attack with both hands as a standard action, which would let you throw two weapons after a move action; This would require at minimum Two-Weapon Fighting and Quick Draw, however, unless you're throwing ammunition-style items.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-03, 10:50 AM
If you're going the ranged attack route you'll need a melee backup option so you can threaten surrounding squares while holding a bow. Armor spikes are an easy add-on, but I prefer the Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101) which will give you a basic unarmed attack. You can add a Monk's Belt or the Superior Unarmed Strike feat to improve this. With a useable unarmed strike you can think about adding Snap Kick for a second attack.

Darrin
2007-08-03, 10:53 AM
To answer the question, i want to be ranged, but i can't decide on which weapon to use. I want to use the bow becasue of the superior damage potential, but also i don't want my scout to have a ranger feel or look.

I'm sorry, but i don't want any ranger levels,or ranger flavor, i want to be a scout 20.

Scout 20 gives you:
* +15/+10/+5 BAB
* Skirmish 5d6/+5 AC
* 5 Bonus Feats
* Fast Movement +30
* 184 skill points
* 72.5 average HP

Scout 4/Ranger 16 with Swift Hunter gives you:
* +19/+14/+9/+4 BAB
* Skirmish 5d6/+5 AC
* 4 Bonus Feats
* Fast movement +10
* 152 skill points
* 88.5 average HP
* +10 Favored Enemy bonus
* Ranger spellcasting (4th level spells)
* Animal companion

The only things that are really ranger-specific flavor-wise (other than the favored enemy damage, which helps supplement the crappy arrow damage) would be the spellcasting and animal companion. Rangers casting spells is usually "meh", but it's usually worth it for Entangle (useful for battlefield control, even more so for archery builds) and Wands of CLW.

You can easily ditch the spellcasting with the non-spellcasting ranger variant in Complete Warrior, which would give you another Fast Movement +10 and a couple 1/day spell-like abilities.

If you're not keen on the animal companion, you can take a Flaw called "Loner" (Dragon #327) that would give you a 5th bonus feat in exchange for not having an familiar/animal companion/cohort.

Toe-to-toe, the Scout 4/Ranger 16 is going to pwn the Scout 20 with the extra BAB/4 attacks. As far as flavor or look goes... there's an argument that might say a lot of that depends more on how the character is played rather than what class abilities they have.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-03, 12:55 PM
Really, i don't want anything to do with the ranger. Scout 20 is good at what it does, i want to be a scout not a scout4/ranger16. No dipping into this or that, i want to have an optimized scout 20, not a ranger.

Thinker
2007-08-03, 12:59 PM
Really, i don't want anything to do with the ranger. Scout 20 is good at what it does, i want to be a scout not a scout4/ranger16. No dipping into this or that, i want to have an optimized scout 20, not a ranger.

Why? It as good as you're going to get with a scout.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-03, 01:01 PM
Why do you think scouts are bad???

Thinker
2007-08-03, 01:21 PM
Scouts aren't bad, its just that the best way to optimize a scout is to stop taking scout levels. That feat is the best way to build a scout. Don't even go archery with the ranger. Go PA + LA + Shock Trooper. With full BAB you can dump your AC and gain the skirmish as nice bonus damage.

Darrin
2007-08-03, 01:28 PM
Why do you think scouts are bad???

* Poor BAB = fewer attacks, and fewer attacks hitting
* d6 HP = too risky for front-line melee
* Skirmish is difficult to use on multiple attacks

If you just went with a wilderness-flavored rogue: same BAB, same HP, same skill points, and you get twice as much Sneak damage on ALL your eligible attacks.

Furthermore, taking 20 levels of any base class doesn't really involve much "optimization". The only real decision there is which feats you take, which boils down to either a TWF or Manyshot tree, and since a straight scout is a bit too fragile for front-line melee, you're pretty much left with Manyshot.

So, if you're asking "how do I optimize a Scout 20", I would still very strongly suggest "take 16 levels of Ranger". You're certainly entitled to disagree.

Draz74
2007-08-03, 03:38 PM
* Poor BAB = fewer attacks, and fewer attacks hitting

Um, Scouts don't have poor BAB, they have medium BAB. Nitpicking aside, 15/20 BAB is an annoyance, but not an insurmountable barrier, for fighting classes like the Scout.


* d6 HP = too risky for front-line melee

Scouts have d8 HD.


* Skirmish is difficult to use on multiple attacks

That's true. Without dipping into another class (Warblade, Monk, whatever), Scouts have a hard time getting ways to use Skirmish on a full attack.

But there are some. As others have been saying (the ones who aren't trying to force you to dip into other classes), the easiest way is the Greater Manyshot feat. I don't know why someone said this is an epic feat; it's not. It's not even a psionic feat (in spite of being found in the XPH). A straight Scout can get it at Level 9.

Or the DC 40 Tumble check cheese, to take a 10-foot step, works well if your DM allows obscure rules originally in Oriental Adventures.

Or you can try to get ahold of the Sudden Leap maneuver from Tome of Battle without any ToB class levels, via the Martial Study feat. I don't know how well this actually works, but it shouldn't be too ridiculous to pull it off, because Sudden Leap is a 1st-level maneuver.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 03:42 PM
Only 1/encounter anyways. And DC 20 without a running start can be iffy.

Best bet, as usual, is greater manyshot. That's the major thing. There is an epic version of manyshot, which, incidentally, is the only thing that allows more than 4 attacks due to BAB.

Droodle
2007-08-03, 04:22 PM
Scouts aren't bad, its just that the best way to optimize a scout is to stop taking scout levels. That feat is the best way to build a scout. Don't even go archery with the ranger. Go PA + LA + Shock Trooper. With full BAB you can dump your AC and gain the skirmish as nice bonus damage.Frankly, if you are building a leap attacking shock trooper, you don't need precision damage at all. You'll hit hard enough without it. Further, Rangers and Scouts make really squishy charge monkeys. Being able to hit someone really hard on your initial attack isn't gonna be all that helpful when all his buddies (and your target, if you miss on your charge) full attack you after the charge, when your defenses are low. Charging is what Barbarians, Fighters, and Paladins are for.


As others have been saying (the ones who aren't trying to force you to dip into other classes), the easiest way is the Greater Manyshot feat. I don't know why someone said this is an epic feat; it's not. It's not even a psionic feat (in spite of being found in the XPH). A straight Scout can get it at Level 9.Unfortunately, Manyshot isn't a Scout bonus feat, so the Scout can't nab it at level 8. This means that a straight Scout can't take Greater Manyshot until level 12.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-03, 05:13 PM
Thank you all for your opinions and replies everybody. :smallsmile:

BardicDuelist
2007-08-03, 05:15 PM
Couple of questions: Where is leap attack and shock trooper? What page is the Riposte variant on in Cityscape?

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 05:17 PM
Leap attacks is a feat from Complete adventurer, and shock trooper is a tactical feat from complete warrior.

cupkeyk
2007-08-03, 05:19 PM
They aren't implying that scouts are bad, they are saying it's not worth taking the twenty levels in. You posted in a board asking for an opinion on crunch, not fluff. If the crunch does not fit your fluff, which I do not see how, since before the scout class was introduced, scouts were ranger/rogues, don't point out things that are fluffy when the discussion is crunchy.

Why scout4 ranger 16 is better? At level 17, you will get 16 BAB, and thus 4 arrows with multishot and four separate attack rolls with +6d6 (thanks to improved skirmish and greater manyshot). That is thirty three percent more damage output than a scout 20 can deal. Add that to the fact that at level 20 you will have added undead, constructs and whatever creatures that would be immune to skirmish. it is not the iterative attacks that matter, since you are limited to standard actions anyway because of skirmish. add craven and that feat that lets you add exit wound damage.

A full scout 20can be a very effective skill monkey/scout though, but then you were asking for combat options.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-03, 08:32 PM
Scout 20 gives you:
* +15/+10/+5 BAB
* Skirmish 5d6/+5 AC
* 5 Bonus Feats
* Fast Movement +30
* 184 skill points
* 72.5 average HP

Scout 4/Ranger 16 with Swift Hunter gives you:
* +19/+14/+9/+4 BAB
* Skirmish 5d6/+5 AC
* 4 Bonus Feats
* Fast movement +10
* 152 skill points
* 88.5 average HP
* +10 Favored Enemy bonus
* Ranger spellcasting (4th level spells)
* Animal companion You're simplifying things in a way that makes the pure Scout look like a poorer choice than it actually is, Darrin.

Let's start with the feats. A Scout gets to choose from a fairly long list of bonus feats. A Ranger (shorthand for "Scout 4/Ranger 16 with Swift Hunter" here) only gets one choice for their "bonus" feats. Here's the difference:

Scout
4 more Scout bonus feats, chosen from a list of 27 options
1 more regular feat
Ranger
Track
Endurance
Rapid Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting
Manyshot or Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Precise Shot or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
The Scout can choose Track and Endurance, because they're both on the list of Scout bonus feats. A Ranger has no choice.

What about other abilities? Here the straight Scout is clearly superior to Scout 4/Ranger 16. (Both Scout and Ranger get Camouflage and Evasion -- identical abilities.)

Ranger
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Swift Tracker
Scout
Flawless Stride
Blindsense 30'
Hide in Plain Sight
Free Movement
Blindsight 30'
Flawless Stride is a superset of Woodland Stride. The Scout 4/Ranger n option doesn't get Hide in Plain Sight until they're Epic -- a full 7 levels later than the straight Scout. This is a huge difference. The Scout also gets enough skill points so maxing out Hide to take full advantage of HiPS isn't a tradeoff. Blindsense, Blindsight, and Free Movement all help the Scout avoid taking damage.

I'm not saying that the Ranger option is bad; it's just that it's less flexible. The Ranger is stronger offensively. The Scout is stronger defensively and also offers more player choice.

Lord Tataraus
2007-08-03, 09:09 PM
I have not played scouts, but my players have. The ranged scouts did not do as well as the charging scout at about the same levels (5-9). The charging scout was superior in always and pin-balled his way around the battlefield. And I would agree that pure scout is better than more than scout X/ranger 4+ IMO.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 09:13 PM
I have not played scouts, but my players have. The ranged scouts did not do as well as the charging scout at about the same levels (5-9). The charging scout was superior in always and pin-balled his way around the battlefield. And I would agree that pure scout is better than more than scout X/ranger 4+ IMO.

Depends on circumstances. If the charger got pounce, he becomes much better, and it can be gotten at a much lesser level.

Thinker
2007-08-03, 09:22 PM
Frankly, if you are building a leap attacking shock trooper, you don't need precision damage at all. You'll hit hard enough without it. Further, Rangers and Scouts make really squishy charge monkeys. Being able to hit someone really hard on your initial attack isn't gonna be all that helpful when all his buddies (and your target, if you miss on your charge) full attack you after the charge, when your defenses are low. Charging is what Barbarians, Fighters, and Paladins are for.

With Shock Trooper any charger's AC is going to be tanked. A fighter on average has 1 more HP per level of a similarly statted ranger. A barbarian has 2 more HP. Some of the ranger spells from Spell Compendium are nice and add a nice bit to a ranger. I agree that precision damage doesn't help all that much, but its like icing on a cake for a skill monkey: being good at combat. Further, with a reach weapon and armor spikes or some such it increases the survivability, just like a fighter.

Curmudgeon
2007-08-03, 09:45 PM
I thought of one other point about straight Scout versus Scout 4/Ranger 16 with Swift Hunter. The easiest way to get skirmish damage with a ranged weapon is via the Greater Manyshot feat, as this avoids having to address the "10' step" issue for the Scout. An archery combat style Ranger gets Manyshot, which is the immediate prerequisite feat for Greater Manyshot, so this should be good, right? Well, not exactly. The Ranger skips the otherwise required prerequisite feat Point Blank Shot to get to Manyshot. But since Greater Manyshot isn't on the Ranger "bonus" feat list, they still need to go back and take all the prerequsite feats before being able to have Greater Manyshot. (Point Blank Shot is on the Scout bonus feat list.)

cupkeyk
2007-08-03, 10:30 PM
I would now suggest that instead of building up towards a scout4/ranger16 with swift hunter, consider Dragon devotee and Deepwood sniper. They are both full bab PRC's that augment Skirmish damage with even just a one level dip. This helps you get to the 16 BAB goal of maximizing your Greater Manyshot and (Improved)Skirmish. I will reiterate craven, lozl, because I love that feat.

BTW, isn't there a feat that allows you to deal exit wound damage with bows?

Fax Celestis
2007-08-03, 10:38 PM
Personally, I recommend coupling Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense (CScn) with Counterstrike Bracers (MIC) and the Riposte variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-08-03, 11:06 PM
I'm not saying that the Ranger option is bad; it's just that it's less flexible. The Ranger is stronger offensively. The Scout is stronger defensively and also offers more player choice.

Offensively, the Scout option is not only weaker, but less flexible. As a straight Scout, you're worthless against enemies that are immune to precision-based attacks. The Ranger levels (assuming you choose your Favored Enemies wisely) give you the ability to add your skirmish damage against these enemies. Now you're effective in all sorts of fights, not just certain enemies.

Also, another good trade for a Scout/Ranger's animal companion is the Ranger variant in PHB2 that makes an enemy you hit flatfooted for your allies' attacks. Also known as How To Make the Party Rogue Love You 101.

Draz74
2007-08-03, 11:28 PM
Personally, I recommend coupling Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense (CScn) with Counterstrike Bracers (MIC) and the Riposte variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a).

Hmmm, yeah, that's true; one of the best ways to make a straight Scout combat-effective is to make it a Variant Scout.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-04, 12:14 AM
Wow, the Cityscape web enhancement is better than the whole book.... And I love the Riposte variant. It makes scouts so much cooler to me (who fences). I wonder if my DM will let this fly for the feat that lets Skirmish and Sneak Attack stack, to make an awesome duelist.

Armads
2007-08-04, 04:21 AM
If you can fit in ToB, get the White Raven stance Press the Advantage. With that, you can take 2 five-foot steps a round, but using a DC 40 tumble check as mentioned before, you can take 2 10ft steps, and then trigger Improved Skirmish + Full Attack

Aximili
2007-08-04, 11:17 PM
I'm sorry, but i don't want any ranger levels,or ranger flavor, i want to be a scout 20.

Don't apologise. Scout 20 is simply... simply True.
Out of all the base classes, scout, rogue and druid are the only ones that actually tempt me to go all the way. And since I don't like rogues and druids...

Just remember that you are the skill monkey first, damage dealer second. Invest on your skills, make use of them whenever you can, however you can, as much as you can.


and you get twice as much Sneak damage on ALL your eligible attacks.

Well, some people (I for one) like the fact that the term "eligible attacks" is much less narrow for the scout. Sure, 90% of the time you'll have someone to help you flank, and even when you don't, you'll have a ring of blinking or something.

But I like to feel that my chracters are independent (both from items and from other characters). Even though they technically don't need to be so, I prefer to think that they'll be prepared even when caught unaware.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-05, 12:55 AM
Would power attack with a 2HD weapon and the riposte varient be good?? and would it stay in terms of power to keep up with the TWF?

Aximili
2007-08-05, 01:00 AM
I can't aswer that, but if you're going for riposte, don't forget the snapkick feat (ToB).

BardicDuelist
2007-08-05, 01:05 AM
Would power attack with a 2HD weapon and the riposte varinet be good?? and would it stay in terms of power to keep up with the TWF?

It could be. With the slower BAB, not only to you have less to use, you need to keep more. It might work well with somthing like defensive strike from CW which give you +4 to your next attack after fighting defensively (combat expertise makes this even better, but you may not have the feats to burn at this point). At lower levels, feinting may be a good idea on your first turn (thus letting you deny them their dex when you use PA and Riposte), but the problem there is that Cha isn't one of your top abilities and bluff isn't a class skill. Still, it could work.

Person_Man
2007-08-05, 06:18 PM
RE: Scout vs. Ranger/Scout

I think its highly dependent on what variants you use and on your DM. Assuming you own a lot of books, the Ranger class tends to have a bunch of different variants available to it. So you can tailor your Ranger/Scout to do a lot of different things. But even more importantly, it depends on your DM.
If your DM uses a lot of one type of enemy, then Favored Enemy is going to help you a lot. If your DM is like me, then he tends to mix in a wide variety of different enemies with different tactics and abilities. In that case, using a pure Scout (Blindsense, Freedom of Movement, Blindsight) is a huge boon.

I also tend to use a large map with a lot of terrain. Specifically, I use a dry-erase map that's hexes on one side and a grid on the other. On top of that, I use a lot of terrrain (mostly Heroscape). Using my encounter set ups, Fast Movement, Flawless Stride, and Hide and Plain Site) tend to be very useful. Woodland Stride and Camoflage are also useful, just somewhat less so.

Finally, I'd add that Animal Companions tend to be a joke at ECL 10+ in my games, especially if the build multi-classes into something that doesn't progress the Companion. While essentially an extra PC at low levels, at higher levels they're just not contributing very much and are quite easy to kill. Your Ranger spells are a similar story. As a strait Ranger with the Spell Compendium, your spells are wildly useful. As a multi-class Ranger, they are far less so. But this goes back to having access to the right variants.

Having said that, I will cop the fact that on paper, a Ranger/Scout with the right variants is more powerful then a pure Ranger.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-05, 06:30 PM
Edit: I was wrong.

Droodle
2007-08-05, 07:40 PM
Scouts do get a lot of nifty class features. Nevertheless a Ranger4/Scout 16 with swift hunter is still clearly going to be superior to a straight Scout 20. He gets that 4th attack on manyshot, most of the scout's other goodies, and (assuming you choose his favored enemy's wisely) he'll be able to apply his precision damage to most of the enemies he fights. Personally, I'd rather have Ranger spell-casting and a few magic items....and I'd also rather have a Scout 3/Ranger 17 than a Scout 4/Ranger 16, since Rangers get hide in plain sight at level 17. Nevertheless, even if you want to go with a (mostly) straight scout, you're still better off throwing at least a few Ranger levels into your scout build for the ability to apply precision damage to your favored enemies.

Aximili
2007-08-05, 08:07 PM
Deadly defense is good, but Defensive Strike (CW) is better.
But defensive strike requires dodge:smallfrown: And requires you to go one round without attacking in exchange for a +4 bonus to one attack.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-05, 08:29 PM
OOps, missed that. Was the orrigional version in Orential Ad. different? I seem to remember this differently, but then yes, this is a poor choice, my mistake.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-06, 01:07 PM
I'm now thinking on being a power-attacking Scout/Fighter, and now i want to know what would be the best way to go for this?? Like feats, and equipment, etc.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-06, 01:51 PM
I'm now thinking on being a power-attacking Scout/Fighter, and now i want to know what would be the best way to go for this?? Like feats, and equipment, etc.

Are you going to use the Riposte variant, or go with the standard Skirmish. If the former, I would focus on defensive feats, but if the latter, focus on mobility based feats and possibly somthing that grants pounce.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-06, 01:56 PM
Sorry, but i'm not familiar with pounce. Could you give me some info on it??

Fax Celestis
2007-08-06, 02:06 PM
Pounce? Six words: "full-attack at end of charge."

Aximili
2007-08-06, 02:39 PM
Sorry, but i'm not familiar with pounce. Could you give me some info on it??


Pounce

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.
The objective is to charge and then full-attack with skirmish damage, and then hope you'll be able to charge again next round.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-06, 02:58 PM
But would one without the riposte variant and pounce suck??

BardicDuelist
2007-08-06, 03:04 PM
But would one without the riposte variant and pounce suck??

Actually it would be Riposte OR Pounce, since together they kind of run at cross purposes.

No, a scout with both of those would not suck, but would not get a full attack often. That may be a problem, but you would still be doing 2d6 (assuming you use a great sword) + PA +Skirmish damage, and so you would be getting a good deal of damage. If you can get pounce (I think there is an item that does this), you end up doing that multiple times. Also, if you can convince your DM to let you make two attacks instead of doubling your speed with haste, that may help as well (but that would not be RAW unless you use 3.0 haste).

Fax Celestis
2007-08-06, 03:05 PM
Also try Complete Champion Barbarian Lion Totem Variant DipTM.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-06, 03:09 PM
I'm thinking of going Scout/Fighter with bounding assault+ PA+Skirmish with a 2 Hander. Would that have good damage potential??

Aximili
2007-08-06, 03:17 PM
But would one without the riposte variant and pounce suck??

If he goes melee, yes.
If he has pounce, he'll be charging around doing skirmish (which would be better if he had multiple attacks, a scout with only one weapon would reach his top at two hits in a charge (the third attack will rarely hit if you PA)).
If he uses riposte, he'll be staying fit and full-attacking with riposte (after taking an attack of course) Again, he'll be limited to applying riposte to only two or three attacks at higher levels, unless he uses more weapons.

Either way, a Speed Weapon always helps, as does the snapkick feat from ToB (two extra attacks are more than valuable to you).

I' thinking of bounding assault+ PA+Skirmish with a 2 Hander. Would that have good damage potential??

Not to spoil your fun, but I would say not very good.
And you do realise you'll only be able to take Bounding assault at level 16, right?

Person_Man
2007-08-06, 03:37 PM
One of the main problems with melee Scouts is that Skirmish provides extra dice of damage, and extra dice of damage scale poorly and are never multiplied.

For example, a Scout 5/Dragon Devotee 4 with Improved Skirmish has 6d6 of Skirmish damage at ECL 9. That's an average of 21 extra damage. Not very much, even though they've fully optimized their Skirmish ability.

So again, Scouts are phenominal Skill Monkey's who can provide mobile ranged support. But they're not really suited for melee builds in most cases.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-06, 03:38 PM
Okay i'll take PA+Riposte.

But now i would like to know, what feats would be optimal?

Fax Celestis
2007-08-06, 03:50 PM
Power Attack probably isn't that good of an idea for a Riposter. Combat Expertise tends to be better, and coupling it with Deadly Defense (CScn) will get you an extra 1d6 damage on a Riposte, and increase your AC whenever you fight. Use Combat Expertise for two points at all times. Riposters do good with a method of getting foes to them. The Goad feat (CAdv) does a good job of this, as does six levels of Knight (PHB-II) for Test of Mettle. Counterstrike Bracers (MIC) are inordinately useful, and acquiring reach (via, say, a longspear, or burning a feat and grabbing a spiked chain) and coupling it with Combat Reflexes is good. I'd venture that the TWF tree with double Broadblade Shortswords (CAdv) would also be a good method, and if you do that, Two-Weapon Rend (PHB-II) might be a good idea to pick up.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-06, 04:26 PM
Is deadly defense really vital to the build? Because i don't have the complete scoundrel.

Also in relation to the topic of Scout fighting styles, would a throwing build be good?? Because i'm being a dwarf, and i think that would be cool flavor-wise.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-06, 04:39 PM
Deadly Defense is optional, though it helps. Thrown weapons are pretty subpar, really, though if you tinkered with it right you could do some neat things with skirmish and grenade weapons, particularly if you grab the Grenadier and Mad Alchemist feats (both in the PHB-II).

Draz74
2007-08-06, 04:48 PM
I'm now thinking on being a power-attacking Scout/Fighter, and now i want to know what would be the best way to go for this?? Like feats, and equipment, etc.

Well, since your Scout levels are going to hurt your BAB, Shock Trooper is an absolute must, so you can charge and do a hefty Power Attack without always missing. Skirmish AC bonus will even mitigate your vulnerability after such a charge, a little.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-06, 06:23 PM
So longspear+Combat reflexes and Expertise is an optimal build??

Fax Celestis
2007-08-06, 06:31 PM
So longspear+Combat reflexes and Expertise is an optimal build??

If you go Riposte, definitely. Also try taking Robilar's Gambit and/or Karmic Strike.

Otto-Sieve
2007-08-06, 07:44 PM
What makes a reach weapon so good??

Fax Celestis
2007-08-06, 07:46 PM
Having reach means that when someone moves to attack you, they have to move through a threatened square, thereby provoking an attack of opportunity, which may net you your Riposte damage and will definitely net you your Deadly Defense damage.

Aximili
2007-08-06, 07:58 PM
So longspear+Combat reflexes and Expertise is an optimal build??

Reach weapons are always good. But remember, the AoO you get when an opponent aproaches you, in most cases, won't apply riposte damage, since the opponent propably won't have attacked ou yet.

cupkeyk
2007-08-11, 11:08 AM
Sorry to do thread necromancy here but is scout 4/ranger6/highland stalker 10 better than scout4/ranger16. HLS net 1d6 more skirmish but you cannot deal skirmish damage to two less groups of creatures(oozes and plants?) than scout/ranger. Dragon devotee is 3/4 bab so it's out of the question.

Fax Celestis
2007-08-11, 11:13 AM
Sorry to do thread necromancy here but is scout 4/ranger6/highland stalker 10 better than scout4/ranger16. HLS net 1d6 more skirmish but you cannot deal skirmish damage to two less groups of creatures(oozes and plants?) than scout/ranger. Dragon devotee is 3/4 bab so it's out of the question.

No. An extra die of Skirmish is not worth giving up all those ranger spells and the ability to damage two more previously nondamagable types, especially if you have access to the Spell Compendium.

Kumquat
2007-08-11, 11:50 AM
Sorry to go back a bit, but where is greater manyshot?

Neon Knight
2007-08-11, 11:54 AM
Here it is. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot)

Kumquat
2007-08-11, 12:02 PM
ah, ok, thank you...I own that book even (XPH) but it has been years since I looked at it because nobody in my group likes it, and it was not on crystal keeps feat list...Thank you again.