How far is too far?

[Calthropstu]

I see a lot of people mention planar binding as "broken." A good number of people mention chain gating solars or binding hordes of pit fiends or binding genies for wishes.

So how far is too far? The spell allows for gm retaliation as raw. Someone gating in solars in large numbers is literally taking gods' personal assistants. Someone binding pit fiends/balors is going to eventually piss off some demon lords and hell dukes.

So how far should a gm let it go before someone steps in? I put forth many scenarios and let you be the judge.:

Scenario 1:
A 10th lvl conjuror casts lesser planar binding before a big fight with a mid level demon bringing in a hound archon. He doesn't offer pay, but mentions the demon and mentions that if they fail to kill it, numerous deaths and destruction will occur. This seems to be the intended use.

Scenario 2:
The same 10th lvl conjuror calls a hound archon to help kill a rival politician.

Scenario 3:
The conjuror is involved in a wide scale shadow war with a demon many times his power level who has taken over a kingdom. He summons large numbers of hound archons to act as spies, perform general good deeds in a kingdom that has pretty much lost hope, and has them help to gain the peoples trust while he tries to gain power enough to defeat the demon.

Scenario 4:
As 3, but no demon. Just a king the binder thinks is a jerk.

Scenario 5-8:
As 1-4 but now it is full binding with a 12 hd celestial, and the power increase is valid.

Scenario 9:
The binder binds a genie 1 time to get 3 wishes getting some wishes that really help move the campaign along.

Scenario 10:
The binder gets 10 genies at once and uses all the wishes to boost all of his ability scores by 5.

Scenario 11: The binder uses all possible daily spell slots every day to get as many wishes as possible.

Scenario 12:
Now we have a 15th level conjuror binding things with access to greater binding. The binder gets a planetar to help in a fight with a major demon.

Scenario 13:
The binder sends the planetar to overwhelm a weaker demon.

Scenario 14:
The binder sends the planetar to clear out some distant lower level dungeon to retrieve something which could take a couple weeks.

Scenario 15:
The binder calls 5 planetars to help take down a pit fiend/balor.

Scenario 16:
The binder brings in 50 planetars to help attack a duke of the nine hells.

Scenario 17: The binder keeps 1 planetar at all times to assist him in his adventures.

Scenario 18: The binder spends numerous slots each day getting planetars to do his bidding for no pay.

Scenario 19:
He binds numerous varying beings from all over the planes for an arena combat in a massive gambling scheme intended to obliterate wealth by level.

Scenario 20:
Now 17th level the binder graduates to gate. He gates in a solar to assist in a fight with a major threat.

Scenario 21:
He gates in a solar to handle a fight with much lesser demons, but many of them.

Scenario 22:
He gates in a solar to do his laundry.

Scenario 23: He spends numerous slots per day gating in solars to be his servants.

How would you as a gm react to these?

[John Longarrow]

Have you read what hoops the caster needs to go through to get the called creature to serve? If so you'll notice that many of your scenario's don't really work out how you'd expect.

[Psyren]

In general:

A) One celestial to help handle a major (CR-appropriate or higher) threat would be fine. Payment may be waived or asked (but even if it's the latter, does not have to be monetary - it can simply be a request or mission.)
B) One celestial to help handle multiple lower threats, also fine.
C) Masses of celestials to do anything are generally a no, but if your players are doing that they're obviously bored or stumped so you're doing something wrong regardless.
D) Celestials doing anything frivolous are generally a no.

More specific:

1) This is fine, though just because it's something the Archon would do anyway doesn't mean it won't ask you for payment. It just may not be monetary. It might request that you, say, take the demon's skull or an evil item the archon knows is in it's possession to a nearby LG church for safe disposal as its "payment."

2) Unreasonable command unless the politician is irredeemably evil. Beings made of Law and Good aren't known for being assassins.

3) GM Sidestep - this kind of thing is likely to attract the demon's attention long before you get enough archons for the stated goal. A powerful fiend should logically have some way of detecting a good caster essentially conjuring up an army within its territory.

4) If the king is powerful enough a threat to warrant an army of celestials (like a lich for example), see (3) above. If he is not, you'd probably get the assistance of a few of them with the rest not-so-subtly encouraging the mortal adventurers that they can handle it.

5-8) As above, depends on the threat (both its power and its morals.)

9) Noble genies are rare enough that you can "roll" but have the players fail unless they are well and truly stuck. Efreeti abuse should be discouraged by any means necessary. (Note that "discouraged" is not always the same as "disallowed.")

10) If you can gate in 10 genies then you should be at the point where you can afford some manuals, so sure. If you mean trapping multiple genies over a long enough period of time with lower level spells, expect to attract unwelcome attention.

11) As 9 and 10.

12) Vague but seems fine.

13) What, like an imp? It would probably agree, but if you made a habit of this you might attract unwanted attention from either side.

14) In general this should be fine, though it may result in plot hooks later. (e.g. the party might have had faulty intel, or perhaps the angel carried out the task in a way that the party didn't intend using its alien mindset.)

15) See 3, what is the fiend in question doing during this kind of prep?

16) This would be highly unlikely to succeed, or the Hells would have no Dukes already.

17) This depends heavily on the nature of said "adventures."

18) Depends on the "bidding," but news of somebody making multiple requests with no pay would probably get around upstairs.

19) No.

20) Depends on the "major threat" but this is likely an intended use for Gate.

21) This is likely fine too. If the demons in question are very low level though, expect a lecture afterward on the value of an archangel's time.

22) No. Well, you can technically do this, but expect repercussions.

23) GM Sidestep - if your player has time to be doing this with 9th-level slots at high levels, either the campaign is over (and therefore it doesn't matter what he says he's doing) or you haven't come up with enough for them to do (in which case, go fix that.)

[Deophaun]

On the one-offs, you're generally fine as long as the alignments mesh with the goals; if they don't, expect subversion/revenge.

When you start forming an army, several things start happening:

Those hound archons you're calling weren't sitting around doing nothing. As important as the city/kingdom is to you, they have bigger responsibilities that you have now put in jeopardy. Expect that to bleed into whatever crisis you're now involved with. In the one-off, if the archon agreed with your cause but still had more pressing issues, it could always help you find one that was more available.

Those demons/devils have their own political structure and their own rivalries, and this army that you are putting together is the perfect opportunity they have to get ahead and remove obstacles. Your forces are now as much a threat to each other as they are to your adversaries, and whatever interests you have are quickly placed on the black burner and often rendered irrelevant by the time they are fullfilled. Oh, and lots of people are going to die from "unfortunate events" that happen "in the heat of battle." If you're not evil before, you will be evil after.

Genies are more complicated. A noble djinni is susceptible to getting three wishes extracted, but there's that 1% issue; their interconnected-ness means pulling hundreds of them just to get a handful capable of granting wishes is not going to end well. Efreeti are the worst ones to mess with; they aren't nice, they despise what you are doing to them, and they aren't trying to kill each other. Someone binding masses of efreetis has effectively delivered a declaration of war to the City of Brass.

All of this stuff is well known to would-be binders that care to ask; there are entire treatises that have explored how to safely call and negotiate with various creatures, and many fallen kingdoms that have explored how not to do so (which is also why recklessly binding creatures often attracts powerful mortal attentions as well).

Of course, not all those treatises are correct; some were written by interested parties. If you find a name, be wary of using it.

[John Longarrow]

On the one-offs, you're generally fine as long as the alignments mesh with the goals; if they don't, expect subversion/revenge.

Or expect them to simply refuse. If its against their nature they won't do it. There is also the chance there absence will be noted...

[Calthropstu]

Or expect them to simply refuse. If its against their nature they won't do it. There is also the chance there absence will be noted...

My point exactly. Most binders don't make it past the lesser stage exactly because of that.

Gotta hand it to psyren, he pretty much came up with many answers very similar to how I would (and in some cases DID) have handled them.

[Deophaun]

Or expect them to simply refuse. If its against their nature they won't do it. There is also the chance there absence will be noted...
Players are creative and there are ways to compel service. My personal favorite is to just kill the bound outsider, raise it as a corpse creature, and command it to do my bidding. You can get wish through a glabrezu that way easy enough.

[John Longarrow]

Calthropstu

Half of your scenario's are ones that should end with "The summoned creature refuses to do so". Asking any outsider for simple tasks should be rejected out of hand. For summoning a Hound Archon to kill someone or to serve to disrupt a nation, the first should be rejected based on alignment and the second based on it being open ended.

A to getting wishes, well, what is the cost to the Genie if they grant you one? What do they loose if they use it on your behalf? Could make it waaaaay to expensive for the player to cough up for it, especially if the Genie think's its worth 100,000 gp.

[Deophaun]

A to getting wishes, well, what is the cost to the Genie if they grant you one? What do they loose if they use it on your behalf? Could make it waaaaay to expensive for the player to cough up for it, especially if the Genie think's its worth 100,000 gp.
The genie might think the wish is worth 100,000 gp, but then they also think their freedom is worth 200,000 gp:

Genies prefer to outmaneuver and outthink their foes. They are not too proud to flee if it means they’ll live to fight another day. If trapped, they bargain, offering treasure or favors in return for their lives and freedom.

A noble djinni can grant three wishes to any being (nongenies only) who captures it. Noble djinn perform no other services and, upon granting the third wish, are free of their servitude.

[Calthropstu]

Calthropstu

Half of your scenario's are ones that should end with "The summoned creature refuses to do so". Asking any outsider for simple tasks should be rejected out of hand. For summoning a Hound Archon to kill someone or to serve to disrupt a nation, the first should be rejected based on alignment and the second based on it being open ended.

A to getting wishes, well, what is the cost to the Genie if they grant you one? What do they loose if they use it on your behalf? Could make it waaaaay to expensive for the player to cough up for it, especially if the Genie think's its worth 100,000 gp.

I used genie as a race. Apparently it is specifically efreeti that have the "automatic can grant 3 wishes 1/day to a non-genie." So assume those as opposed to noble djinn.

The cost to an efreeti or noble djinn is negligible, it can do this every day. And a binder of sufficient power to entrap it can keep it trapped for 2-3 weeks. Is refusing to use its 1/day ability worth losing 2 weeks of time? Probably not.

[John Longarrow]

I used genie as a race. Apparently it is specifically efreeti that have the "automatic can grant 3 wishes 1/day to a non-genie." So assume those as opposed to noble djinn.

The cost to an efreeti or noble djinn is negligible, it can do this every day. And a binder of sufficient power to entrap it can keep it trapped for 2-3 weeks. Is refusing to use its 1/day ability worth losing 2 weeks of time? Probably not.

Time? To an immortal being?

I'd feel the better way to deal with this as a Genie is to bargain a bit

"OK, you called me here, now lets deal. I'd say my wish is worth X... And if you do the stupid think and think you can keep me bound for ever, well, remember I WILL get out and then I WILL extract payment. It could be simply by selling you to something I know... or keeping you bound for eternity. Remember there is a reason you asked me to come here so lets bargain for what my service is worth"

Just giving the conjurer a wish will only encourage him to call you again. Best to put a stop to this BEFORE it impacts the genie's freedom...

[Deophaun]

I'd feel the better way to deal with this as a Genie is to bargain a bit
If you're binding an efreeti, you're done anyway:

Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead.
You've abducted them and stranded them on a foreign plane of existence (they do not have plane shift to get home). At this point, it's you bargaining for your life. The wish costs extra.

[Calthropstu]

Time? To an immortal being?

I'd feel the better way to deal with this as a Genie is to bargain a bit

"OK, you called me here, now lets deal. I'd say my wish is worth X... And if you do the stupid think and think you can keep me bound for ever, well, remember I WILL get out and then I WILL extract payment. It could be simply by selling you to something I know... or keeping you bound for eternity. Remember there is a reason you asked me to come here so lets bargain for what my service is worth"

Just giving the conjurer a wish will only encourage him to call you again. Best to put a stop to this BEFORE it impacts the genie's freedom...

I counter with the following, which actually happened in a game.

A 14th lvl sorcerer got a very large warehouse building, permanencied a few cloudkill spells underneath it (gm allowed it) to prevent it from getting unwanted insects, put walls of force around it, sealed it off and bound 6 efreeti.

He told them "I need 15 wishes to enhance my physical endurance, my mental acuity and my innate charisma. That means there's 1 too many. 5 of you will grant me wishes and be released, the other is going to die. If I don't have my wishes by tomorrow, I will kill all of you and call 6 new efreeti."

The sorcerer then left the room, waited an hour and came back. The gm in question gave the sorcerer his wishes, but beforehand the sorcerer turned to the 6th efreeti and hit him with a maximized disintigrate (meta rod) one shotting it in front of the other efreeti.

This was pathfinder so its death was permanent. The message was clear: mess with me and die. (this was related to me by another gamer)

Consider another scenario, this one I used myself. I bound a glabrezu and a movanic deva told them one of them was going to assist me in an endeavor. The payment was going to be assisting in destroying the other in open combat. I openly stated I preferred to work with the angel, but if it turned me down I would happily work with the glabrezu. (I was true neutral and needed planar assistance with a heavily difficult untertaking)

I got the angel to agree, hit the glabrezu with a dimensional anchor, killed the circle and we beat the crap out of it.

[Florian]

As I see it, the spell has two problematic parts. The first is the clause that allows you to force a creature into service, bypassing the whole bargaining, the second is the raw amount of meta-knowledge that comes into it, rewarding you for knowing what monsters are actually available, so you can chose the right critter for the right task, possibly getting the fee waived along the way.

It´s also way too easy to bypass some of the limitations. A specialist can raise the HD cap on the spells, drastically broadening the range of options available. In contrast, Entice Fey or Contact Entity work similar, but you have to be way more careful with the spells.

[John Longarrow]

I counter with the following, which actually happened in a game.

A 14th lvl sorcerer got a very large warehouse building, permanencied a few cloudkill spells underneath it (gm allowed it) to prevent it from getting unwanted insects, put walls of force around it, sealed it off and bound 6 efreeti.

He told them "I need 15 wishes to enhance my physical endurance, my mental acuity and my innate charisma. That means there's 1 too many. 5 of you will grant me wishes and be released, the other is going to die. If I don't have my wishes by tomorrow, I will kill all of you and call 6 new efreeti."

The sorcerer then left the room, waited an hour and came back. The gm in question gave the sorcerer his wishes, but beforehand the sorcerer turned to the 6th efreeti and hit him with a maximized disintigrate (meta rod) one shotting it in front of the other efreeti.

This was pathfinder so its death was permanent. The message was clear: mess with me and die. (this was related to me by another gamer)

Consider another scenario, this one I used myself. I bound a glabrezu and a movanic deva told them one of them was going to assist me in an endeavor. The payment was going to be assisting in destroying the other in open combat. I openly stated I preferred to work with the angel, but if it turned me down I would happily work with the glabrezu. (I was true neutral and needed planar assistance with a heavily difficult untertaking)

I got the angel to agree, hit the glabrezu with a dimensional anchor, killed the circle and we beat the crap out of it.

I've seen this logic used in game to. If the DM is cool with it it works. If not, character gets pulled somewhere nasty by the person who's servants keep getting killed / messed with. Character is then given the same type of option they give other, and should realize they are going to get killed off it they are not really, really, really smart. Down side to D&D is there are lots of ways to find out what happened to someone... even if that some one is an outsider.

[Coretron03]

What if you call up some creatures that grant wishes to people but not to their own kind? Like a noble genie that you request and ask for 2 of its wishes in exchange for using its last wish on its behalf? If they decline, call a different one or give it 2 wishes on its behalf and only ine for yourself. I Can't imagine a genie that wouldn't want the second deal as they normally can't grant wishes to their selves.

[Calthropstu]

What if you call up some creatures that grant wishes to people but not to their own kind? Like a noble genie that you request and ask for 2 of its wishes in exchange for using its last wish on its behalf? If they decline, call a different one or give it 2 wishes on its behalf and only ine for yourself. I Can't imagine a genie that wouldn't want the second deal as they normally can't grant wishes to their selves.

See, that is something I personally considered as well. I haven't had a chance to really try it though.

[Florian]

What if you call up some creatures that grant wishes to people but not to their own kind? Like a noble genie that you request and ask for 2 of its wishes in exchange for using its last wish on its behalf? If they decline, call a different one or give it 2 wishes on its behalf and only ine for yourself. I Can't imagine a genie that wouldn't want the second deal as they normally can't grant wishes to their selves.

That´s dependent on setting, fluff and if you see fluff as "hard rules".
In Golarion, the inner planes are also called "Planes of Power" and the wish-granting ability is tied to be able to affect the "lesser" reality of the Prime Material Plane due to the connection to its building blocks. You just reshape it, a bit like in the movie Inception.
No self-respecting outsider wants to stoop so low and subject itself to that.

[Bullet06320]

What if you call up some creatures that grant wishes to people but not to their own kind? Like a noble genie that you request and ask for 2 of its wishes in exchange for using its last wish on its behalf? If they decline, call a different one or give it 2 wishes on its behalf and only ine for yourself. I Can't imagine a genie that wouldn't want the second deal as they normally can't grant wishes to their selves.

been there/done that, had a character spend some time searching for an efreet that was willing sell his wishes that way and take a month long vacation. It freaked out a new player when I told him he see's an efreet lounging in a deck chair by the pool sipping on a drink with a pink umbrella in it, lol. so now that group of PCs has a racket going, getting wishes from efreet that are lined up waiting to get their chance. needless to say they angered some of the higher ups in the city of brass, and adventure ensued, it was plot totally driven by the PCs actions, and was fun for all

[Fizban]

From my list of tweaks and clarifications:

Planar Binding only allows you to bargain, bound creatures will never work for free. If a bargain is not made they automatically return to their home plane once free of the binding regardless of effects or local conditions that would attempt to retain or compel them. If a bargain is made, the payment is bound to the agreement and returns to the creature's home plane with the same guarantee even if they are slain, or possibly immediately. Any equipment carried by the creature may be designated "bound" (as DMG2) by the DM, making it useless to anyone but the called creature itself.

Planar Ally typically calls only a specific type of creature per spell depending on the caster's god (see Complete Divine), and casters who's gods aren't represented there will need to submit a list for DM approval. The DM may alter the default creature to create unique individuals and/or substitute another creature if it seems appropriate, including instances where the caster has made an attempt to request a different creature by some means even if they don't have a specific name, or any other reason. As with Planar Binding, any payment offered is bound to the agreement and disappears even if the called creature is slain, and the creature's own equipment may not be transferable.
Should be pretty airtight. You get nothing for free. If you're capable of holding them indefinitely, congratulations, you've made them angry and you get nothing for free. Of course if the DM wants to let them work for free, or nearly so, they always have that option. But unless the DM wants you to summon free help to compensate for an oversized encounter, you get nothing for free.