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Aliquid
2017-05-29, 11:45 PM
I was thinking about the more day-to-day use of spells in a fantasy world... when it comes to parenting.

Imagine a parent being able to cast enchantment or compulsion type spells. Would they be tempted to cast some sort of truth spell on a child, or simply compel them to do their chores when they are uncooperative?

Imagine what that would do to a child if they had a parent that did this sort of thing regularly. How old would they be before they clued in that something was going on, and it isn't "normal".

I can imagine the kid would likely end up being resentful to magic... if they spent their childhood trying to fight the magic, maybe they end up with a natural ability to resist magic.

Would you consider the parents immoral for doing this? Is there a line you would draw where sometimes it is ok, sometimes it isn't?

What else would spellcasting parents be tempted to do? (silence spell for a colic baby?)

pwykersotz
2017-05-29, 11:55 PM
NEVER cast magic on the baby. That way lies madness. That is reserved for your dark apprentice. :smalltongue:

Assuming magic is real and that fallout is possible, I would never cast a spell ON a baby. ...Maybe death ward. But most magic overwrites normal physics. You cast remove disease, and the immune system doesn't develop. You cast enchantments and you mess up cognitive development. Magic is a shortcut, and if you want the child to grow up healthy, you don't take those shortcuts. Now getting your Unseen Servant to do the chores while you get some rest is different. But if you make a Simulacrum, make sure the real you is with the kid, not the copy. Otherwise that's just begging for a "you never really loved me! you're not my real father!" rant that might actually stick.

Honest Tiefling
2017-05-30, 12:32 AM
NEVER cast magic on the baby. That way lies madness. That is reserved for your dark apprentice. :smalltongue:

PRESTIDIGITATION. OH SWEET PELOR NO.

I think the argument could be made that using such spells if the child is in imminent danger might be excusable, say, they get too close to a vehicle or a spooked horse, are on unstable ground, etc. If my previous comment didn't make it clear, I haven't raised a child, but I imagine the panic after such an event would probably overwhelm any reaction to magic.

Then again, I probably wouldn't blame a parent for putting a toddler on a leash if they had to.

I also imagine that silence in any circumstance is a bad idea because the child might try to communicate other needs (such as a dirty diaper, choking, or danger) that would need attending to.

scalyfreak
2017-05-30, 12:34 AM
I agree, don't cast on the baby. However, I see no problem with casting on things around the baby...

Scrying spell right above the crib would work nicely as a baby monitor. D&D's prestidigitation cantrip on everything around the baby after diaper overflow accidents cleans without you having to actually touch anything... The same cantrip can be used to heating up bathwater, formula, warming the blanket so the baby is warm.

Not to mention using spells to find said baby as they reach the running toddler phase...

AnBe
2017-05-30, 12:55 AM
Who needs to hire a clown for a birthday party when you can do literal magic tricks? Or you could summon a clown lol

This may sound callous, but I would try this: Have 2 kids, use magic on 1 of them regularly and see how it turns out. On the other child, do not use magic at all. Might be an interesting little experiment, but I don't think I'd actually do that.

Or maybe you could send the kids off to a little school called Hogwarts lol

Mendicant
2017-05-30, 01:05 AM
Magic would be glorious, so long as you avoided compulsions or anything that messes with kid physically.

The mere presence of healing spells would be hugely reassuring. Kids find all kinds of ways to hurt themselves, and those injuries don't teach them much of anything past the initial shock and pain.

Their immune systems wouldn't really be hurt by cure disease spells--they'd be able to develop the antibodies during the incubation and early infection. Cure disease just speeds the recovery or rids them of diseases that weren't doing the immune system any favors anyway.

Dancing lights would be fun to play with, especially on car rides where you can't play with them yourself.

Telekinesis, even of a fairly weak sort would help stop tumbles, keep various fragile things from breaking, and a bunch of other fringe benefits--the number of random instances where an extra hand would be useful is pretty damn big. For instance, my one year old currently loves opening and closing doors. And opening them again. And closing them again. The only issue is that doors generally latch, so he'll close it, try to open it, and then get frustrated. You can't distract him either--he's extremely focused when he wants to be. So you can either stand there in what we call "the door gulag" and turn the knob every time until he gets bored, let him get progressively more frustrated and fussy, or drag him away from his game and invite the wrath of Khan. A bit of telekinesis and you could be on the other side of the room doing something else while he entertains himself.

BWR
2017-05-30, 01:14 AM
I know one old issue of Dragon (probably 2e) had parental/housekeeping spells and magic items. Like diaper changing spells, bathing spells, ever-full milk bottles, rocking cribs, house cleaning spells, etc.

These would be fine. They don't directly affect the child. The long-term effects of enchantments on developing minds...we are never told that these magics have any side effects so I would assume there weren't any what you might call first order consequences of repeated compulsions. Second order consequences really depend on how often the parents use these sorts of magics. If used sparingly there will likely be more of a 'don't push parents too far or they will force me' mentality. The more dominating (ha) the parents are, the worse the consequences, which might in extreme cases lead to a basically brain-washed kid.

As for understanding that something isn't 'normal': if a kid grows up around magic and sees it all the time, it is normal. That's just the way the world works. They would learn about it and understand it in exactly the same way and tempo as they learn everything else; a gradual understanding of how things fit together starting at birth.

Aliquid
2017-05-30, 09:51 AM
As for understanding that something isn't 'normal': if a kid grows up around magic and sees it all the time, it is normal. That's just the way the world works. They would learn about it and understand it in exactly the same way and tempo as they learn everything else; a gradual understanding of how things fit together starting at birth.It was more a matter of "it isn't normal for parents to use magic to control their children", (because most parents aren't spellcasters, and those that are don't use compulsion on their kids)... rather than "magic isn't normal"

Aliquid
2017-05-30, 09:52 AM
I agree, don't cast on the baby. However, I see no problem with casting on things around the baby...

Scrying spell right above the crib would work nicely as a baby monitor. D&D's prestidigitation cantrip on everything around the baby after diaper overflow accidents cleans without you having to actually touch anything... The same cantrip can be used to heating up bathwater, formula, warming the blanket so the baby is warm.

Not to mention using spells to find said baby as they reach the running toddler phase...Yes, but what about scrying on the 13 year old that is gone out with his friends that the parents suspects are a "bad influence"... the temptation for the parents would be real.

GungHo
2017-05-30, 10:01 AM
You people don't have kids. Take a level in wizard and memorize sleep. Cast it on the kid first and then on yourself.

Bulhakov
2017-05-30, 10:39 AM
You people don't have kids. Take a level in wizard and memorize sleep. Cast it on the kid first and then on yourself.

I'm a parent of 2 (soon to be 4) and I approve this post! :)

Aliquid
2017-05-30, 11:07 AM
You people don't have kids. Take a level in wizard and memorize sleep. Cast it on the kid first and then on yourself.Well I was originally thinking about the impact on older kids & teens... but yes for the first 5 years, this would be a daily occurrence (multiple times a day).

But... from first hand experience, I have learned that many kids need to "learn" how to put themselves to sleep. So if you constantly put a baby to sleep with magic, you will create a dependency where the kid will never go to sleep on their own without the spell.

Darth Ultron
2017-05-30, 11:56 AM
Well, a lot of what magic does are things that parents can do in 2017....and lots of parents do them.

For example, you can tag your kid with a chip or use their phone to track where the kid is in real time. There are even apps that do this.

And parents (and others) have used magic potions to put kids to sleep forever (and some airlines still do this, but it's a secret)

Downloading a movie/tv show can keep a kid busy and occupied not only for car trips, but any time. Some fiction is so powerful that kids will freeze in place and just stare at it.

So magical parents would do them too, if they had the magic. And magic would be much more fun...

Detecting lies with a zone of truth....''ok, so you went to Becky's house and there were no boys there?'' And the spell says-''you are a liar''!

Charm person and other such magic to get chores done.

Domination magic to stop them from..well, doing anything...but a fun one is ''hanky panky''...where girls can be throwing themselves at the poor boy who will dominantly say ''sorry I must wait until I'm married"

Polymorph Punishment.....make the kid stand in the corner...as a potted plant.

The Snake Sigil-on say the alcohol cabinet...you'd come home and find the poor kid ''frozen'' at the cabinet...

But it can also be a great teaching tool too, like:

Have a kid spend a day or week as the other gender to see what it is like.

Endless illusions to teach, well anything.

Aliquid
2017-05-30, 12:03 PM
Well, a lot of what magic does are things that parents can do in 2017....and lots of parents do them.

For example, you can tag your kid with a chip or use their phone to track where the kid is in real time. There are even apps that do this.

And parents (and others) have used magic potions to put kids to sleep forever (and some airlines still do this, but it's a secret)

Downloading a movie/tv show can keep a kid busy and occupied not only for car trips, but any time. Some fiction is so powerful that kids will freeze in place and just stare at it.

So magical parents would do them too, if they had the magic. And magic would be much more fun...

Detecting lies with a zone of truth....''ok, so you went to Becky's house and there were no boys there?'' And the spell says-''you are a liar''!

Charm person and other such magic to get chores done.

Domination magic to stop them from..well, doing anything...but a fun one is ''hanky panky''...where girls can be throwing themselves at the poor boy who will dominantly say ''sorry I must wait until I'm married"

Polymorph Punishment.....make the kid stand in the corner...as a potted plant.

The Snake Sigil-on say the alcohol cabinet...you'd come home and find the poor kid ''frozen'' at the cabinet...

But it can also be a great teaching tool too, like:

Have a kid spend a day or week as the other gender to see what it is like.

Endless illusions to teach, well anything.Yes, yes this is what I was talking about.

e.g.
The Snake Sigil on the alcohol cabinet - I can't see many people opposing that
The domination & detecting lies example.... is that going too far? Is that ethically pushing boundaries?

NecroDancer
2017-05-30, 12:30 PM
Meteor Swarm is appropriate for ALL parenting scenarios.

Mike_G
2017-05-30, 12:40 PM
There is no parent who can say in all honesty that they would have the willpower not to cast sleep on the colicky infant after the third consecutive night.

Quertus
2017-05-30, 12:45 PM
Yes, yes this is what I was talking about.

e.g.
The Snake Sigil on the alcohol cabinet - I can't see many people opposing that
The domination & detecting lies example.... is that going too far? Is that ethically pushing boundaries?

Personally, I'd happily use Mind Rape to fix most everyone in the world. I don't see why I'd stop at children.

Mark Hall
2017-05-30, 12:52 PM
There is no parent who can say in all honesty that they would have the willpower not to cast sleep on the colicky infant after the third consecutive night.



I am the father of two children. I would pay dearly for the ability to cast a sleep spell on my toddler.

"I know you are tired. I can tell you are exhausted. JUST GO THE **** TO SLEEP!"

NecroDancer
2017-05-30, 01:23 PM
I am the father of two children. I would pay dearly for the ability to cast a sleep spell on my toddler.

"I know you are tired. I can tell you are exhausted. JUST GO THE **** TO SLEEP!"

Unfortunately this trick doesn't work for elvish parents

pwykersotz
2017-05-30, 01:33 PM
Unfortunately this trick doesn't work for elvish parents

Alternately, this is how they acquire that immunity. :smalltongue:

Honest Tiefling
2017-05-30, 02:08 PM
There is no parent who can say in all honesty that they would have the willpower not to cast sleep on the colicky infant after the third consecutive night.

I can see that casting sleep would stop children from learning how to sleep properly, but I think using a sleep spell on a sick child so they can recover better is a different situation. Heck, use it on your partner (assuming one is in the picture, might explain why there is so much spell-casting) when they're sick, use it on the neighbors! They'll probably appreciate it.

In the immortal words of a very wise man, "Go the **** to sleep."


Domination magic to stop them from..well, doing anything...but a fun one is ''hanky panky''...where girls can be throwing themselves at the poor boy who will dominantly say ''sorry I must wait until I'm married"

...And then they ask why, and the child can either state that they don't know, or that they're parents dominated them and then you have get to talk to CPS as staffed by several paladins...And either way, you're not getting grandchildren EVER, and your child probably gets a hangup or two. And your partner probably wants to murder you for ruining their chances of grandchildren.

scalyfreak
2017-05-30, 02:17 PM
...And then they ask why, and the child can either state that they don't know, or that they're parents dominated them and then you have get to talk to CPS as staffed by several paladins...And either way, you're not getting grandchildren EVER, and your child probably gets a hangup or two. And your partner probably wants to murder you for ruining their chances of grandchildren.

To say nothing of the unfortunate side-effect of your child never actually learning how to control certain urges and developing any kind of self-control or discipline.

Honest Tiefling
2017-05-30, 02:19 PM
To say nothing of the unfortunate side-effect of your child never actually learning how to control certain urges and developing any kind of self-control or discipline.

No one ever talks about the unintended side effects of magic, such as your adult children humping the furniture.

Braininthejar2
2017-05-30, 05:12 PM
This whole thread is several villain origin stories waiting to happen.

Dr_Dinosaur
2017-05-30, 07:14 PM
Witches make fantastic babysitters/nannies. They can always know where the child is (child scent), patch them up if they get hurt (healing), put them to sleep faster than a glass of warm milk (slumber), and even keep them safe (ward)! Throw on Gingerbread Witch (make the BEST cookies) or Witch-Watcher (even more safety features!) and you can give Mary Poppins a run for her money

Honest Tiefling
2017-05-30, 07:19 PM
...And you can give Mary Poppins a run for her money...

...Why isn't she a Witch? She clearly at least has the Flight Hex. Maybe needs a few third party hexes, but she's definitely a caster of some sort.

Knaight
2017-05-30, 08:52 PM
More than a few of these suggestions are great ways to make sure you're alone in your old age.

veti
2017-05-30, 10:46 PM
This whole thread is several villain origin stories waiting to happen.

This.

Zone of Truth? Learning responsibility means learning how to be trustworthy. They're never going to do that if you don't give them the option to do the opposite.

Sleep? I'm a parent of two myself, and while I may have been tempted, I don't think there's ever been a time when I could defensibly have cast Sleep on either of my kids. (On myself, however...)

Charm or Domination - look, are you trying to raise kids or domestic slaves?

Telekinesis, Cure Wounds, Cure Disease, Protections - maybe in genuinely life-threatening situations. But only then. Because if they don't make mistakes, they won't learn.

Polymorph for educational purposes - that's an interesting idea. But even that needs extreme caution. Part of what makes people - what they are - is not having experience of everything else. Different kids would react in different ways to those experiences. Some minds may be broadened, others may be narrowed, some may be completely unable to cope with it and just go completely nuts. All of which would be your responsibility.

Mindrape - look, if you think you can mess with someone's mind on that level and reliably foresee the outcome, then you're already crazier than they're shortly going to be. The spell is (Evil) for a reason.

Basically, any time you cast any spell on a kid - I think you should be arrested and have to justify your action to a court, with mandatory horrible penalties if they don't agree with you. Do you really want to cast this even if it means, say, permanently losing a level? If so, good on you. If not, then the situation clearly isn't serious enough to justify it.

Quertus
2017-05-31, 12:26 AM
Mindrape - look, if you think you can mess with someone's mind on that level and reliably foresee the outcome, then you're already crazier than they're shortly going to be. The spell is (Evil) for a reason.

Give me the entire population of the world to experiment upon, let alone the levels, skill ranks, and skill-boosting spells and items that I'd have by the time I got Mind Rape, and I guarantee you I'd do a much, much better job than most parents I've seen.

I mean, ****, how many times today have I referenced or read someone else referencing the idea of people messing up on something as simple and static as game design, setting up rules whose logical consequences is to encourage undesirable behavior? Humans are idiots, who should not be allowed to design or run games, let alone raise children!

When some idiot writes / runs the game wrong, you teach the players all kinds of bad habits, and have to hope that rules changes / new editions / better GMing can break those habits. I'd love Mind Rape just for that.

Now, when some idiot parent or random circumstance or fluke of genetics or combination thereof does the same to a child? Sure, you can go the slow, expensive, years of therapy route, and hope for the best, or just ignore it, like most parents I've seen. But me? I'd rather have the tools to solve the problem directly.

Mendicant
2017-05-31, 02:52 AM
I'd be really resistant to using Sleep on my kid, because we don't know how it works. Sure "it's magic," but what is the magic doing, practically, that causes somebody to sleep instantly? What are the consequences from going straight to sleep? You don't need to explain that for a game, but the second you port this into the real world you're messing with the target's physiology somehow. Does the heartrate slow down to a sleeping rate the instant he goes down? How is this affecting cortisol and other hormones? There's no reason to assume that this is a gentle process with no side effects for repeated (or even one time!) use.


Give me the entire population of the world to experiment upon, let alone the levels, skill ranks, and skill-boosting spells and items that I'd have by the time I got Mind Rape, and I guarantee you I'd do a much, much better job than most parents I've seen.

Somehow I profoundly doubt that someone who is perfectly untroubled by experimenting on the whole human species without consent would know what "good parenting" even is.

Khaiel
2017-05-31, 03:41 AM
This may sound callous, but I would try this: Have 2 kids, use magic on 1 of them regularly and see how it turns out. On the other child, do not use magic at all. Might be an interesting little experiment, but I don't think I'd actually do that.

Maybe it is because I play too much Dwarf Fortress, but my first thought was "Only 2 kids? That's not enough kids to get an accurate answer. You'd need at least 30 per side to get something ressembling accurate results."

Darth Ultron
2017-05-31, 07:17 AM
The domination & detecting lies example.... is that going too far? Is that ethically pushing boundaries?

It does depend on the type of parent. Some parents will do anything for their kids...and some won't. When it is your kids, nothing is ''too far''. Kids by their very nature and biology and reality don't have the ability to take care of themselves, even when they are old enough to throw the car keys down, stamp their feet and go to their room and slam the door (more then once).

A LOT of parents do the ''old fashioned non-magical'' dominance and a LOT of them simply raise their kid(s) right so it is not an issue. And detecting lies only is an issue if the kid did something wrong and will tell a lie. And in 2017, again, I know where my daughter is 24/7, and I'm far from the only parent that tracks their kid(s).



...And then they ask why, and the child can either state that they don't know, or that they're parents dominated them and then you have get to talk to CPS as staffed by several paladins...And either way, you're not getting grandchildren EVER, and your child probably gets a hangup or two. And your partner probably wants to murder you for ruining their chances of grandchildren.

Well, your assuming a 2017 far one sided political and culture bias. Yes, in some places if little Timmy ''draws a picture of a sword'' he will be expelled from school and a note will be put in his file that he is a ''violent kid''. And in some places kids have a sword hanging from the back of their wagon in the school parking lot and everyone is just like ''hey haw''.




Basically, any time you cast any spell on a kid - I think you should be arrested and have to justify your action to a court, with mandatory horrible penalties if they don't agree with you. Do you really want to cast this even if it means, say, permanently losing a level? If so, good on you. If not, then the situation clearly isn't serious enough to justify it.

This is really just different parenting styles. Scrying is using a camera to watch the kids (maybe one in a teddy bear), would you arrest people that do that? Divination spells are like GPS tracking or programs that watch a computer, but lots of parents use them (I know, in seconds, if my kids are using the computer for homework..or not). And so on.

So it would depend on the magic law of where ever you live. Some places would do things ''your way'', and some would do things ''the other way''....just like real life. Some places/parents would be horrified if their daughter even looked at a gun. In some places/parents taught their daughter how to shoot when very young, have her own a gun or two (including a cute little pink one to take on dates), and shoot with her regularly. Parents, places and laws are deferent everywhere.

Lord Torath
2017-05-31, 08:13 AM
Basically, any time you cast any spell on a kid - I think you should be arrested and have to justify your action to a court, with mandatory horrible penalties if they don't agree with you. Do you really want to cast this even if it means, say, permanently losing a level? If so, good on you. If not, then the situation clearly isn't serious enough to justify it.Prestidigitation to clean them up for the family picture after they decided to make mud pies in their best clothes.

Quertus
2017-05-31, 08:59 AM
Somehow I profoundly doubt that someone who is perfectly untroubled by experimenting on the whole human species without consent would know what "good parenting" even is.


Maybe it is because I play too much Dwarf Fortress, but my first thought was "Only 2 kids? That's not enough kids to get an accurate answer. You'd need at least 30 per side to get something ressembling accurate results."

I'm a proper scientist. Yes, people make mistakes - even doctors and therapists. And game designers. And parents.

And I never said without consent*. Give me Mind Rape, and I'll put therapists out of business with my instant results. Will I make mistakes? IRL, yes; d20, no, because you can't botch a skill check.

So, if it's a d20 model, I'm perfectly safe with my unfailing skill check in using Mind Rape on everyone. IRL? I'll do a better job than sending the child to therapy. I'm not seeing the problem here, other than perhaps a legal one of needing to be a licensed Mind Rapist.

* heavily implied it, sure. :smallwink:


It does depend on the type of parent. Some parents will do anything for their kids...and some won't. When it is your kids, nothing is ''too far''. Kids by their very nature and biology and reality don't have the ability to take care of themselves, even when they are old enough to throw the car keys down, stamp their feet and go to their room and slam the door (more then once).

A LOT of parents do the ''old fashioned non-magical'' dominance and a LOT of them simply raise their kid(s) right so it is not an issue. And detecting lies only is an issue if the kid did something wrong and will tell a lie. And in 2017, again, I know where my daughter is 24/7, and I'm far from the only parent that tracks their kid(s).



Well, your assuming a 2017 far one sided political and culture bias. Yes, in some places if little Timmy ''draws a picture of a sword'' he will be expelled from school and a note will be put in his file that he is a ''violent kid''. And in some places kids have a sword hanging from the back of their wagon in the school parking lot and everyone is just like ''hey haw''.



This is really just different parenting styles. Scrying is using a camera to watch the kids (maybe one in a teddy bear), would you arrest people that do that? Divination spells are like GPS tracking or programs that watch a computer, but lots of parents use them (I know, in seconds, if my kids are using the computer for homework..or not). And so on.

So it would depend on the magic law of where ever you live. Some places would do things ''your way'', and some would do things ''the other way''....just like real life. Some places/parents would be horrified if their daughter even looked at a gun. In some places/parents taught their daughter how to shoot when very young, have her own a gun or two (including a cute little pink one to take on dates), and shoot with her regularly. Parents, places and laws are deferent everywhere.

There is no one right parenting style, but there sure are a lot of wrong ones. So long as you use the tools you have correctly, in a manner consistent with your culture and parenting philosophy, I'm not seeing the justification for all the hate people are showing.

Yes, children need to learn to self-soothe. Many parents idiotically deny their children the opportunity to learn such skills. Yes, children need to learn resource management. Many parents idiotically deny their children the opportunity to learn such skills. Many parents idiotically stifle creativity and self-expression*, disparage intelligence, make learning (perhaps most notably toilet training) harder, etc.

Heck, I remember I was transporting my niece on an hour car trip. My sister had warned me that she said random "words", but none of it made any sense. It was all just random sounds. Turns out, my sister was wrong - my niece was making poorly formed words, and putting them together in poorly formed sentence fragments, but there was intelligence and intent behind these sounds. Realize that, and she made perfect sense. My niece had her first ever conversation with me. I instantly became her favorite person.

I never went to Kindergarten. My first experience with school was first grade.

My mother took me to meet the teacher before school. I explored the classroom, and discovered some blocks I wanted to play with. I was told I had to wait until school started to play with them.

So, first day of school, as soon as it was play time, I went straight for those blocks. I was building an awesome block castle, until some little boy ran through it, knocking everything down.

Why would he do that? I returned to my desk to ponder this odd, destructive behavior. I glanced over to where I had been playing, only to find said boy playing with the blocks. He had destroyed my "life's work" with the intent to make me lose interest, so that he could play with the blocks. How horrible! And, even worse, it had worked. How much of the human thought process followed this twisted logic, I wondered.

But it got worse. Apparently, for the sin of playing with the toy he had wanted, said little boy had decided that I required further punishment. He got over half the class marching around the classroom, chanting that they would get me when we went out for recess.

My teacher? She just sat at her desk. She did nothing, said nothing.

I was almost to an Ender Wiggin moment, when a pair of my classmates spontaneously signed on as my bodyguards. As they were probably two of the toughest kids in 1st grade, the mob backed down.

Most parents / authority figures would have intervened. My teacher didn't, ensuring no one would have to in the future.

* one of my "favorite" songs is "Flowers are Red" by Harry Chapin.

Aliquid
2017-05-31, 10:20 AM
I'd be really resistant to using Sleep on my kid, because we don't know how it works. Sure "it's magic," but what is the magic doing, practically, that causes somebody to sleep instantly? What are the consequences from going straight to sleep? You don't need to explain that for a game, but the second you port this into the real world you're messing with the target's physiology somehow. Does the heartrate slow down to a sleeping rate the instant he goes down? How is this affecting cortisol and other hormones? There's no reason to assume that this is a gentle process with no side effects for repeated (or even one time!) use.I was thinking more of how this impacts people's day to day lives in the fantasy world, rather than porting it into the real world.

Mendicant
2017-05-31, 01:06 PM
I was thinking more of how this impacts people's day to day lives in the fantasy world, rather than porting it into the real world.

You'd still need those questions answered before you came up with a system to model it. Nobody teases out the mechanics of using sleep over an over again on a little kid because it's not a thing that happens in gameplay. As it is, the spell is a black box.

Aliquid
2017-05-31, 02:28 PM
You'd still need those questions answered before you came up with a system to model it. Nobody teases out the mechanics of using sleep over an over again on a little kid because it's not a thing that happens in gameplay. As it is, the spell is a black box.When having a hypothetical discussion about what would happen in a fantasy world under certain circumstances, the approach can be pushed to two different extremes:

1) Applying all 'real world' rules and science to the discussion
2) Throwing all real world science out the window and saying "its a fantasy world, anything can happen"
Of course most of us pick a point somewhere in-between those two extremes.

The problem with going too far towards (1) is that the concept of magic totally breaks (especially RPG magic). Magic becomes impossible and the whole discussion falls apart.

So with that in mind, I would say that cortisol and hormones don't even exist in the fantasy world. Spellcasters cast spells on themselves all the time, and do so repeatedly. Most (not all) systems don't assign any physiological side effects to the spellcaster for doing that. So in that "fantasy reality" physiological side effects do not exist. Casting sleep simply puts someone to sleep. There is no how or why, it just happens. If you ask how or why, then magic breaks.

The problem with going too far towards (2) is that the debate becomes pointless by default. How can you discuss what would hypothetically happen with a scenario that has no rules? If there are no rules then literally anything can 'hypothetically' happen.

veti
2017-05-31, 05:28 PM
Prestidigitation to clean them up for the family picture after they decided to make mud pies in their best clothes.

1. Take the clothes off them.
2. Cast whatever you want on the clothes, while the kids have a bath. (You can also create, fill and heat the bath magically, if you like.)
3. Put the clothes back on the kids.

I'm not saying magic can't be a big help. Just don't cast it on the kids.

Mark Hall
2017-05-31, 05:40 PM
Charm Person or Mammal combined with Speak with Animal to make sure the family dog can Good Dog, Carl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Dog,_Carl) his way through your trip to the store.

I mean, your familiar is even more awesome for this, but unless you got a special familiar, it's not going to be able to do much.

sktarq
2017-05-31, 05:51 PM
The use of mending and prolly another spell to grow their clothing so they don't grow out of their favorite shoes or jacket every six months.

oxybe
2017-06-01, 12:35 AM
Children and magic are like steak and spices. You gotta infuse early to make sure that goes in deep.

If your kid doesn't have glowing purple, iris-less eyes and seeps arcane miasma from his pores, you're clearly doing the whole parenting thing wrong.

Braininthejar2
2017-06-01, 03:38 AM
Children and magic are like steak and spices. You gotta infuse early to make sure that goes in deep.

If your kid doesn't have glowing purple, iris-less eyes and seeps arcane miasma from his pores, you're clearly doing the whole parenting thing wrong.

That's actually a very good background for spelltouched feats.

Segev
2017-06-01, 11:46 AM
I never went to Kindergarten. My first experience with school was first grade.

My mother took me to meet the teacher before school. I explored the classroom, and discovered some blocks I wanted to play with. I was told I had to wait until school started to play with them.

So, first day of school, as soon as it was play time, I went straight for those blocks. I was building an awesome block castle, until some little boy ran through it, knocking everything down.

Why would he do that? I returned to my desk to ponder this odd, destructive behavior. I glanced over to where I had been playing, only to find said boy playing with the blocks. He had destroyed my "life's work" with the intent to make me lose interest, so that he could play with the blocks. How horrible! And, even worse, it had worked. How much of the human thought process followed this twisted logic, I wondered.

But it got worse. Apparently, for the sin of playing with the toy he had wanted, said little boy had decided that I required further punishment. He got over half the class marching around the classroom, chanting that they would get me when we went out for recess.

My teacher? She just sat at her desk. She did nothing, said nothing.

I was almost to an Ender Wiggin moment, when a pair of my classmates spontaneously signed on as my bodyguards. As they were probably two of the toughest kids in 1st grade, the mob backed down.

Most parents / authority figures would have intervened. My teacher didn't, ensuring no one would have to in the future.
Not intervening is a...tricky one.

In my case, I was so worried about hurting other people that I would NOT fight back, and it...made for problems. Teachers not intervening only helped further encourage the buggers.

Admittedly, I think the administration had a personal animus against me for some reason, because if I even tried to go to an adult, I was "tattling," and if things got so bad adults couldn't ignore it, I was "instigating" and was at least as much at fault as the bullying twerps.

I can see standing off and letting the kids work it out...as long as you keep a close eye on it and are ready to intervene if it becomes clear that the targets of abuse CANNOT or don't know how to defend themselves.


Seriously, if I were to relive my childhood, I'd make sure to physically pummel the first few bullies. Sure, I'd get in trouble, but it would be trouble worth having gotten into, as it probably would make for a much happier and less excluded childhood.



On topic, I think a lesser geas to "stay in this box until somebody takes you out" would make a valid substitute for a playpen, assuming you go with the reading that says it has a compulsion effect. (You want "until somebody takes you out" to make sure that the punishment aspect doesn't kick in.) A forcecage playpen would also be kind-of hilarious. And a guaranteed inescapable one.

"Be sure to drink your potions of water breathing before you go swimming, kids!" would also be totally valid. Or, you know, casting it on them. A bunch of wands of it in the hands of a UMD-trained life guard at the local pool wouldn't be remiss.

Geas or dominate to compel completion of assignments when the kid has put them off too long would probably work. You're not compelling them in a manner that denies them the opportunity to learn self-control; you're imposing it as a punishment while ensuring they still learn the material. It's little different from Dad and Mom standing over their shoulders and making them do their homework rather than goofing off.

Zone of truth is little different from having a high Sense Motive and being able to call them on lying.

And, despite the obvious villainous applications, using charm person on a kid who's been hurt badly enough that they trust nobody when you genuinely have their best interests at heart can help them open up and place trust in you enough to let you help them. A lot of dramatic fiction has a hurt (emotionally or physically) kid unwilling or unable to trust the well-meaning adult who really would help them, because they're too afraid of how trusting that adult would expose them to further harm, and this leads to the kid being harmed further because the adult is not able to help them. This one's less useful for parents, though; if your kid doesn't trust you when you've raised them, then...you probably are doing something wrong enough that charming them into doing so is not for their best interests.

Mark Hall
2017-06-01, 11:49 AM
The use of mending and prolly another spell to grow their clothing so they don't grow out of their favorite shoes or jacket every six months.

I'm not so sure Mending would do that. It'll protect what they tear up (or break apurpose), but I wouldn't see it growing their clothes for them.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-01, 01:05 PM
Seriously, if I were to relive my childhood, I'd make sure to physically pummel the first few bullies. Sure, I'd get in trouble, but it would be trouble worth having gotten into, as it probably would make for a much happier and less excluded childhood.

When I logged in today, I didn't think these forums would want me to make me punt small children.


And, despite the obvious villainous applications, using charm person on a kid who's been hurt badly enough that they trust nobody when you genuinely have their best interests at heart can help them open up and place trust in you enough to let you help them. A lot of dramatic fiction has a hurt (emotionally or physically) kid unwilling or unable to trust the well-meaning adult who really would help them, because they're too afraid of how trusting that adult would expose them to further harm, and this leads to the kid being harmed further because the adult is not able to help them. This one's less useful for parents, though; if your kid doesn't trust you when you've raised them, then...you probably are doing something wrong enough that charming them into doing so is not for their best interests.

I think the argument for this tactic is much greater if there is some sort of time limit involved. Sure, it might wreck the kid's chances of trusting an adult but if the choice is between that and getting eaten by a hag or remaining with bad parents, let's do this.

EDIT: Another use in the modern world would be using polymorph or disguise self to get into bathrooms so that opposite sex offpsring can't run and hide in them.

Knaight
2017-06-01, 01:13 PM
Seriously, if I were to relive my childhood, I'd make sure to physically pummel the first few bullies. Sure, I'd get in trouble, but it would be trouble worth having gotten into, as it probably would make for a much happier and less excluded childhood.

I mostly escaped bullying, but there was this one guy who picked on a fair section of the class for years, and got away with it because his parents were millionaires that were highly influential with the town. Decking him in the face back in first grade would have been a solid decision, and while I would have gotten in trouble for it it's not like trouble from first grade actually carries that far. Plus, there's a good twenty people who would have loved to see it happen.

Slipperychicken
2017-06-01, 01:32 PM
If we're sticking with 3rd edition magic, Heart's Ease (https://dndtools.net/spells/book-of-exalted-deeds--52/hearts-ease--48/) would be great. I wonder how far crime would fall if you just gave kids one of these every year or so.

Telonius
2017-06-01, 01:48 PM
There's a couple of walls I can think of that could have done with an Erase spell after my daughter got done with them.

Summon Nature's Ally for special treats (she read about some animal in a book and thinks they're the cutest thing ever now)

Legend Lore, for when she's learning about important family heirlooms.

Beelzebubba
2017-06-01, 02:00 PM
New cantrips:

Tasha's Adorable Giggles. Make a child <1 year old giggle for six seconds. 75% chance to make them forget whatever it was they were crying about.

Otiluke's Tasty Sphere. Hide one piece of cauliflower, broccoli or a Brussel spout inside a small edible sphere that tastes like chocolate milk but has no nutritional content. Duration: until swallowed.

Colic Ward. While this is active, the target baby immediately burps up any swallowed air, preventing any abdominal pain or resulting gassiness. Duration 3 hours. Concentration.

Mordenkeinen's Negation. Target: one child, 1 to 3 years old. If the target fails, every time they attempt to say the word 'No!', instead they say 'Yes'. If the parental request was something reasonable, like 'pick up your socks', the child then has to make a Will save vs. DC12 or else they go pick up those damn socks.

:smallwink:

Mark Hall
2017-06-01, 02:19 PM
New cantrips:

Tasha's Adorable Giggles. Make a child <1 year old giggle for six seconds. 75% chance to make them forget whatever it was they were crying about.

Otiluke's Tasty Sphere. Hide one piece of cauliflower, broccoli or a Brussel spout inside a small edible sphere that tastes like chocolate milk but has no nutritional content. Duration: until swallowed.

Colic Ward. While this is active, the target baby immediately burps up any swallowed air, preventing any abdominal pain or resulting gassiness. Duration 3 hours. Concentration.

Mordenkeinen's Negation. Target: one child, 1 to 3 years old. If the target fails, every time they attempt to say the word 'No!', instead they say 'Yes'. If the parental request was something reasonable, like 'pick up your socks', the child then has to make a Will save vs. DC12 or else they go pick up those damn socks.

:smallwink:

Actually, the "Belch" and "Giggle" cantrips from 1e's UA can handle a couple of these.

sktarq
2017-06-01, 08:56 PM
I'm not so sure Mending would do that. It'll protect what they tear up (or break apurpose), but I wouldn't see it growing their clothes for them.

Thus the "and prolly another spell" part. Since we know that magic armor resizes it already in the world but not split out as a separate spell. And since those favorite clothes last longer they would definitely need the mending.

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-06-02, 03:59 AM
(I know, in seconds, if my kids are using the computer for homework..or not).

Protip: Because what's parenting if not accidentally peeking in on your child's first attempt at cybersex.

So many things you won't be able to unsee, so many.

Bohandas
2017-06-03, 01:15 AM
These would be fine. They don't directly affect the child. The long-term effects of enchantments on developing minds...we are never told that these magics have any side effects so I would assume there weren't any what you might call first order consequences of repeated compulsions. Second order consequences really depend on how often the parents use these sorts of magics. If used sparingly there will likely be more of a 'don't push parents too far or they will force me' mentality. The more dominating (ha) the parents are, the worse the consequences, which might in extreme cases lead to a basically brain-washed kid.

Second-order consequences, not specifically to children but rather in general, I believe are canonically covered in some of the mind-flayer related supplements


A LOT of parents do the ''old fashioned non-magical'' dominance and a LOT of them simply raise their kid(s) right so it is not an issue. And detecting lies only is an issue if the kid did something wrong and will tell a lie. And in 2017, again, I know where my daughter is 24/7, and I'm far from the only parent that tracks their kid(s).

This is really just different parenting styles. Scrying is using a camera to watch the kids (maybe one in a teddy bear), would you arrest people that do that? Divination spells are like GPS tracking or programs that watch a computer, but lots of parents use them (I know, in seconds, if my kids are using the computer for homework..or not). And so on.

I suppose it's never too early to encourage children to develop skills in the fields of counterintelligence and dissimulation

Mark Hall
2017-06-03, 08:46 AM
The Mod Wonder: I would suggest that discussions of real-world parenting techniques are not well suited to this particular forum.

Segev
2017-06-05, 12:07 PM
Clearly, the optimal spell for parents is actually a psionic power: True Mind Switch. You've raised the body, and can train the kid however you want, and it even mostly looks like you (so you should feel familiar when you take it over). And, of course, it only makes sense for your "son" to be your legal heir when you tragically become afflicted with senility and need to be placed in an old folk's home on the day he achieves his majority. The fact that your own father - also senile (it runs in the family, poor dears) - dies of complications brought on by old age shortly thereafter is also very sad. But keeps you-in-your-son's-body from suffering a level loss due to your prior body dying.

Mark Hall
2017-06-05, 12:23 PM
Just running through the Cantrips/Orisons of the SRD.

Bard:
Lullaby. I can cast this instead of singing "I'm a little teapot" 13 times in a row?
Mage Hand. Takes the fun out of the throwing things game if Daddy doesn't have to get up to pick stuff up.
Message. "Young Man, get back here!"

Cleric:
Detect Poison "How much should I be worried if Junior is eating that?"
Purify Food and Drink "Welp, the milk has gone bad in the sippy cup... or has it?"

Not a cantrip, but Endure Elements, on my daughter, so she isn't cold and will sleep all night? Hells to the yeah!

Segev
2017-06-05, 12:33 PM
Endure elements so that you never have to say, "Mommy's cold, so you have to put on a sweater," would be priceless. I mean, if the kid can't even tell the spell is on him, he's probably not going to object when Mom casts it that morning "whether he needs it or not."

(I actually am not entirely sure where some of the reluctance for wearing jackets comes from, but at the same time, I'm not sure why parents are so insistent on them when kids don't want them. I'm usually a pretty good judge - and was even as a kid - as to when I'd need one. I would be taking it off for being too warm if it was pushed on me. Endure elements prevents that: you're comfortable no matter the weather's temperature. Or humidity, for that matter. I wonder if it deals with allergens, too? Obviously not poisons, but...allergens?)

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-05, 01:17 PM
Endure elements so that you never have to say, "Mommy's cold, so you have to put on a sweater," would be priceless.

And for your preteens, sidestepping that issue of 'Mom, I'm cold. Can I have your jacket'?

I wonder if there is a lower level spell that can create a force field for car trips. Stay on your side, dammit!

Segev
2017-06-05, 01:38 PM
And for your preteens, sidestepping that issue of 'Mom, I'm cold. Can I have your jacket'?

I wonder if there is a lower level spell that can create a force field for car trips. Stay on your side, dammit!
I was going to suggest Portable Holes on each seat so that each kid had their own playspace, but then I realized: "Mooooom, Suzy keeps throwing her Feather Tokens into my extradimensional playspace!" "Nuh-uh! Billy keeps taking my Infinite Rope!"

pendell
2017-06-05, 01:41 PM
You people don't have kids. Take a level in wizard and memorize sleep. Cast it on the kid first and then on yourself.

Absolutely.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-05, 01:43 PM
Considering that 90% of threads I've seen take a turn for the evil, maybe it's better we don't have children.

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-06-05, 01:46 PM
I was going to suggest Portable Holes on each seat so that each kid had their own playspace, but then I realized: "Mooooom, Suzy keeps throwing her Feather Tokens into my extradimensional playspace!" "Nuh-uh! Billy keeps taking my Infinite Rope!"

That's it! Now you two shut up or this car is going to the lower planes!

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-05, 01:47 PM
That's it! Now you two shut up or this car is going to the lower planes!

Do you want a carload of tieflings? Because that's how you get a carload of tieflings.

Segev
2017-06-05, 01:50 PM
Do you want a carload of tieflings? Because that's how you get a carload of tieflings.

Nononono, that happens when the car goes to the lower planes BEFORE the kids are born. And possibly the driver was alone (and lonely) before arriving in said lower planes.


Unless these kids are teens and the parents are particularly unobservant about what they get up to with the "local boys/girls" down there......

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-05, 01:55 PM
Nononono, that happens when the car goes to the lower planes BEFORE the kids are born. And possibly the driver was alone (and lonely) before arriving in said lower planes.

I dunno, putting your kid anywhere near the abyss and expecting consistent results is going to be a bit silly. The abyss could probably turn an elephant into a humanoid tiefling, just because.


Unless these kids are teens and the parents are particularly unobservant about what they get up to with the "local boys/girls" down there......

One would think that being on fire is a suitable distraction, yes. Or being turned into semi-sentient ooze.

Kantaki
2017-06-05, 01:59 PM
Do you want a carload of tieflings? Because that's how you get a carload of tieflings.

More importantly, wouldn't that "threat" encourage the kids?:smallamused:

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-05, 02:01 PM
More importantly, wouldn't that "threat" encourage the kids?:smallamused:

Behave or you'll become 3rd edition tieflings and get a charisma penalty! No one will ask you to prom after that!

Kantaki
2017-06-05, 02:11 PM
Behave or you'll become 3rd edition tieflings and get a charisma penalty! No one will ask you to prom after that!

That might work.
However, it might result in a devil/demon offering the newly transformed tieflings a way around that minor problem (charisma boost, change in something else, a fiendish companion who won't care...) all for the low price of your (the parents) soul.
And after a stunt like that it won't need much convincing that you hav it coming.:smallamused:
Nevermind that turning figurative little monsters into literal ones doesn't sound like a improvement.

Maybe casting something like Hold Person and making them listen to some terrible music is a better punishment.

Segev
2017-06-05, 02:20 PM
The real threat should be:

"Behave or this car is turning around RIGHT back to the Starting Village."

As we all know, there's nothing but a level 1 dungeon to do back there. And no good loot in the town store.

Honest Tiefling
2017-06-05, 02:24 PM
"Behave or this car is turning around RIGHT back to the Starting Village."

What sort of horrible parent brings their children to a burning village? Starting Villages NEVER make it past the first act!

Bohandas
2017-06-05, 03:42 PM
Clearly, the optimal spell for parents is actually a psionic power: True Mind Switch. You've raised the body, and can train the kid however you want, and it even mostly looks like you (so you should feel familiar when you take it over). And, of course, it only makes sense for your "son" to be your legal heir when you tragically become afflicted with senility and need to be placed in an old folk's home on the day he achieves his majority. The fact that your own father - also senile (it runs in the family, poor dears) - dies of complications brought on by old age shortly thereafter is also very sad. But keeps you-in-your-son's-body from suffering a level loss due to your prior body dying.

Wasn't that the plot of The Thing on the Doorstep?

Segev
2017-06-05, 03:45 PM
Wasn't that the plot of The Thing on the Doorstep?

Never heard of it, so maybe?