Phoenix Sorc

[Dman]

So ive been thinking about the Phoenix as something i want to play eventually but from what ive heard it seems very lackluster. I was thinking of multiclassing if not trying to get the best sources of fire damage if not better charisma (over 20) that I can. I know its probobly not worth it im just wondering what other peoples thoughts have been about it, if theyve found anything interesting now that its been out for a while.

[Foxhound438]

3 levels of bard could be nice to pick up heat metal for a repeating fire damage effect, but it's possible that scorching ray is generally just a more applicable use of a second level slot... Higher spell levels you're probably wanting to cast fireball or something, since the bonus damage feature is a 1/day, so if you're using it you're already going "all-out".

This might seem obvious if you've already thought of it, but don't forget to pick up elemental adept: fire to get past resists.

Finally, since you're obviously not going by AL rules (UA is being considered), you have all of the resources at your disposal.

SCAG gives you green flame blade when you happen to be close

elemental evil player companion brings you:

create bonfire as a long-duration cantrip,
aganzaar's scourcher for an (extremely situational) area effect at low levels,
Melf's Minute Meteors for less bursty, but more total damage than a fireball (not to mention multiple damage rolls for extra procs of +cha to damage),
and investiture of flame for a (admittedly lackluster) repeatable effect.

[jaappleton]

I'm going to perform a ritual that's going to bring forth a fellow Playgrounder whom has much experience in this field.

I don't want to use a spell slot, so this will take 10 extra minutes.

Yo DracoKnight, get in here, broseph.

[DizzyWood]

Yo DracoKnight, get in here, broseph.

The use of the word broseph makes me think a case of Natty Lite and a spritz of Axe body spray is used in said summoning.

[Dman]

So ive had a chance to think about it and im thinking just straight multiclass into Mystic for the +2 fire damage with the mastery. thought one of the transformation spells gave you a new Charisma score too but i guess just the damage from being a red dragon isnt worth it. Although I am thinking dragonborn as the class.

[jaappleton]

The use of the word broseph makes me think a case of Natty Lite and a spritz of Axe body spray is used in said summoning.

Material components. :smallcool:

[Khrysaes]

So ive had a chance to think about it and im thinking just straight multiclass into Mystic for the +2 fire damage with the mastery. thought one of the transformation spells gave you a new Charisma score too but i guess just the damage from being a red dragon isnt worth it. Although I am thinking dragonborn as the class.

Multiclass Undying Light Warlock. They get charisma bonus to Fire and Radiant spells at level 1, as well as a couple cantrips and free spells known. Not to mention eldritch balst/agonizing blast/repelling blast, or some other invocations.

Technically, the way it is worded, it would stack with fire damage bonus from Draconic sorcerer 6.

Also, Lore Wizard 2, you can change spells of one element to another(i.e. fire).

[Dman]

Multiclass Undying Light Warlock. They get charisma bonus to Fire and Radiant spells at level 1, as well as a couple cantrips and free spells known. Not to mention eldritch balst/agonizing blast/repelling blast, or some other invocations.

Technically, the way it is worded, it would stack with fire damage bonus from Draconic sorcerer 6.

Also, Lore Wizard 2, you can change spells of one element to another(i.e. fire).

I am already a Phoenix Sorc though, Undying seems fun

[jaappleton]

Multiclass Undying Light Warlock. They get charisma bonus to Fire and Radiant spells at level 1, as well as a couple cantrips and free spells known. Not to mention eldritch balst/agonizing blast/repelling blast, or some other invocations.

Technically, the way it is worded, it would stack with fire damage bonus from Draconic sorcerer 6.

Also, Lore Wizard 2, you can change spells of one element to another(i.e. fire).

You're severely slowing down your spell progression at that point, if you MC both Warlock and Wizard.

UL Warlock itself should be fine. Most heavy hitting spells, damage-wise, are Fire based anyways. Really, what do you need after Fireball, damage-wise? Aside from real heavy hitters like Meteor Swarm, of course. Firebolt with Charisma Mod on it multiple times should be enough to handle single targets.

[Khrysaes]

You're severely slowing down your spell progression at that point, if you MC both Warlock and Wizard.

UL Warlock itself should be fine. Most heavy hitting spells, damage-wise, are Fire based anyways. Really, what do you need after Fireball, damage-wise? Aside from real heavy hitters like Meteor Swarm, of course. Firebolt with Charisma Mod on it multiple times should be enough to handle single targets.

While firebolt +cha fits thematically, he could still get Eldritch Blast +Cha, which is a bit better mechanically. Also can include knockback.

2 Warlock is usually a good dip with sorcerer, simply because of eldritch blast. As a bonus you get all of your Bloodline features from sorcerer.

Take sorcerer as first level though, so you get proficiency in Con saves.

Also, I wasn't suggesting you go Both Lore Wizard AND Warlock. If you did you would give up your 18 sorc ability but keep your 9th level spell. Not the worst choice however, because then all your spells are now fire spells, and you get rituals as a wizard, and find familar, etc.

Lore wizard is really overpowered though, since, while not working with cantrips(so EB cant be fire.. damn), you can change the save of any spell you cast, so you can make the saves monsters have to make targeted to what they would likely be bad in.

Dont forget to grab the elemental master feat, so you can ignore fire resistance.

[Dman]

While firebolt +cha fits thematically, he could still get Eldritch Blast +Cha, which is a bit better mechanically. Also can include knockback.

2 Warlock is usually a good dip with sorcerer, simply because of eldritch blast. As a bonus you get all of your Bloodline features from sorcerer.

Take sorcerer as first level though, so you get proficiency in Con saves.

Also, I wasn't suggesting you go Both Lore Wizard AND Warlock. If you did you would give up your 18 sorc ability but keep your 9th level spell. Not the worst choice however, because then all your spells are now fire spells, and you get rituals as a wizard, and find familar, etc.

Lore wizard is really overpowered though, since, while not working with cantrips(so EB cant be fire.. damn), you can change the save of any spell you cast, so you can make the saves monsters have to make targeted to what they would likely be bad in.

Dont forget to grab the elemental master feat, so you can ignore fire resistance.

It depends on which campain i use it in though havnt played one yet thats gone all the way to 20. I wouldnt bother too much with EB though im trying to be thematic here i mean sure theres Lore wiz but I havnt even thought about a spell list yet so saves and such might not be as important.

[Rixitichil]

The build I've currently been considering is to consider your fire spells as a one/day cover these non fire resistant foes in loads of damage. Melf's Minute Meteors looks pretty good for this as it means you don't have to divert too many Sorcery Points or Spell slots to do this.

The rest of the time contribute to battles with other spells. (Web has been doing very well for being kind of on theme, I'm considering Erupting Earth as an alternative to Fireball, and there are a lot of multipurpose utility spells worth getting as a Sorcerer.)

The key issue with Sorcerers is lack of spells known, so it seems you probably only want a few fire spells, (two or maybe three outside of cantrips at a guess?) even on a fire focussed caster.

[jaappleton]

The build I've currently been considering is to consider your fire spells as a one/day cover these non fire resistant foes in loads of damage. Melf's Minute Meteors looks pretty good for this as it means you don't have to divert too many Sorcery Points or Spell slots to do this.

The rest of the time contribute to battles with other spells. (Web has been doing very well for being kind of on theme, I'm considering Erupting Earth as an alternative to Fireball, and there are a lot of multipurpose utility spells worth getting as a Sorcerer.)

The key issue with Sorcerers is lack of spells known, so it seems you probably only want a few fire spells, (two or maybe three outside of cantrips at a guess?) even on a fire focussed caster.

Emphasis mine.

Precisely. So Fireball is your go-to AoE. Firebolt is your go-to single target. On a Sorcerer, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but wouldn't you be better using Scorching Ray and then Quickening Firebolt instead of going for Melf's?

[Khrysaes]

Emphasis mine.

Precisely. So Fireball is your go-to AoE. Firebolt is your go-to single target. On a Sorcerer, maybe I'm reading it wrong, but wouldn't you be better using Scorching Ray and then Quickening Firebolt instead of going for Melf's?

Ohh definitely. ESPECIALLY if you get your Charisma to the damage. Scorching ray would be like eldritch blast on a warlock, getting +cha Per Ray that hits. Since you get 3-10 rays, that is 15-50 damage.

Undying Light warlock could get you that +Cha to the spell. By the PHB Eratta, it only works on one dice roll for Dragon Sorcerer. They didn't change how it worked with Eldritch blast however.

That being said.

Going Undying Light would fit thematically with a Phoenix sorcerer. Seeing as both can resurrect themselves and the fire and light theme.

NOT taking eldritch blast IF you take warlock, on a sorcerer is a... well it is a choice, one you could make, but it is illogical to do so. You can always reimagine and describe how the eldritch blast works, without changing that it does force damage. Perhaps, you create small explosions of fire and direct the air that was force away by that explosion? Shockwaves from explosions are quite forceful, and actually the most damaging parts of nuclear explosions because it hits twice, the sudden expansion, and the subsequent suction when the air goes back in.

[DracoKnight]

I'm going to perform a ritual that's going to bring forth a fellow Playgrounder whom has much experience in this field.

I don't want to use a spell slot, so this will take 10 extra minutes.

Yo DracoKnight, get in here, broseph.

"TEN THOUSAND YEARS will give you such a crick in the neck!"

Okay, so admission: I am playing a Phoenix Sorc right now, but I more optimized my strategy than my stats. I'm playing an Aarakocra Phoenix Sorc, and we're currently 4th level. My stats are:

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 16

At 4th level I bumped my DEX and CHA to 16. I have an amulet of mage armor which has 2 charges every day. I went aarakocra both for theme and for their high fly speed so that I can be up out of the way and scorch everything with Twinned/Quickened Fire spells. My DM also tweaked Mantle of Flame to be 2/rest like Bladesong.

If I were to hardcore optimize the Phoenix Sorcerer, I'd either go winged tiefling for their +2 CHA, or Half-Elf for the CHA-optimization amazingness that is the Half-Elf.

[Corran]

So ive been thinking about the Phoenix as something i want to play eventually but from what ive heard it seems very lackluster. I was thinking of multiclassing if not trying to get the best sources of fire damage if not better charisma (over 20) that I can. I know its probobly not worth it im just wondering what other peoples thoughts have been about it, if theyve found anything interesting now that its been out for a while.
When I first saw it I thought it was very powerful, as it provided benefits that didnt expend your sorcery points. Reading to some of the comments (and after giving it a quick second look), the once per day limit on its abilities (save of nourishing fire) makes it less strong that I thought.

I think it would play really good if you multiclassed to become a gish (as its features would work well on a frontliner). Maybe ancients for the aura of warding, to make safer use of phoenix spark? That would lose you nourishing fire in the long run, but then again this is the less interesting ability for a gish type of character.

EDIT: AoW doesnt actually work, as phoenix spark is not a spell...

[Beechgnome]

"TEN THOUSAND YEARS will give you such a crick in the neck!"

Okay, so admission: I am playing a Phoenix Sorc right now, but I more optimized my strategy than my stats. I'm playing an Aarakocra Phoenix Sorc, and we're currently 4th level. My stats are:

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 16

At 4th level I bumped my DEX and CHA to 16. I have an amulet of mage armor which has 2 charges every day. I went aarakocra both for theme and for their high fly speed so that I can be up out of the way and scorch everything with Twinned/Quickened Fire spells. My DM also tweaked Mantle of Flame to be 2/rest like Bladesong.

If I were to hardcore optimize the Phoenix Sorcerer, I'd either go winged tiefling for their +2 CHA, or Half-Elf for the CHA-optimization amazingness that is the Half-Elf.

This is, like you say, not really optimized, since mantle and spark both have abilities that only really work if the baddies are actually near you, and at 18th form's flying becomes superfluous.

But gahdammit you're a fiery birdman who shoots fire from your flaming chicken wings, and that is awesome.

When you get to Spark at 6th, see if your DM will let you, as part of your reaction, drop from the sky if in mid flight to bomb a group of enemies.

[jaappleton]

This is, like you say, not really optimized, since mantle and spark both have abilities that only really work if the baddies are actually near you, and at 18th form's flying becomes superfluous.

But gahdammit you're a fiery birdman who shoots fire from your flaming chicken wings, and that is awesome.

When you get to Spark at 6th, see if your DM will let you, as part of your reaction, drop from the sky if in mid flight to bomb a group of enemies.

Gotta play it like Lilith 'The Firehawk' in Borderlands 2.

You're a walking explosion.

[Beechgnome]

If you want to optimize as a Phoenix Sorcerer who can mix it up in melee to better use your Phoenix powers, and Any UA is allowed, you might want to go Tiefling and start with one level of forge cleric to start.

Standard point buy: ST 15 DX 8 CN 12 IN 8+1 = 9 WS 13 CH 15+2=17

The strength and forge cleric let you wear the best of the heavy armor, while your blessings of the forge will let you make +1 armor, and searing smite will be nice and shield frees up an eventual sorcerer spot.

Also cleric means your spell progression isn't slowed, unlike paladin or non-casters.

So you can have cleric cantrips: Light, Sacred flame, guidance. spells: Searing Smite, Shield, Bless, Cure wounds. Your AC will be 17 w/ chain mail +1, and 22 w/ shield.

At 2nd level you switch to Phoenix sorcerer and take cantrips Green flame blade, Fire bolt, Minor Illusion and Mage hand, for example, and take False Life (you’ll appreciate the spare hit points) and Thunderwave and whatever else you like as first level spells. By 4th level you can add 2nd level spells, and switch out a first level sorcerer spell or two, with spells like Agannazer’s scorcher, Scorching Ray, Pyrotechnics, Blur or Mirror Image.

For metamagic I recommend Quicken and Careful… because if you’ll be mixing it up, you’ll want to give your team a chance to avoid spells like Pyrotechnics and Thunderwave.

At 5th level (4th level sorcerer) you take the UA Racial Feat: Flames of Phlegethos. This gives you +1 to charisma, lets you reroll 1s on fire damage and lets you do an extra d4 fire damage to anyone within 5 feet of you. So now you have 18 charisma and no one would want to touch you.

So, at 5th level, with mantle activated, you would attack with a war hammer (2-handed) with green flame blade and do d10 + 2 bludgeoning (strength) + d8 fire (GFB) + 4 fire (Mantle) on your first target (avg. 16) and fire damage of d8 +4 (GFB) +4 (Mantle) to the second target (avg. 12.5), then quicken Agannazar’s scorcher on them,, allowing you to wreathe yourself in phlegethos flames. If they hit you back - keeping in mind if you have +1 forge blessing plate at this point you’ll have an AC of 19 +24 with shield - you’ll be able to do d4 +4 (mantle) in return… or keep your shield off and let them hit you and then hellish rebuke them plus the d4+4.

Despite your ridiculous AC, you have flaws… your hp total is a pedestrian 29 and you have lousy Dexterity saves and Initiative. False life can help with the hit point problem, though. As for Dex saves, you have resistance to fire, so really your main weakness when it comes to dexterity saves is lightning. And if you take Haste later on, one of its side perks is that it gives advantage to Dexterity saving throws.

And yes fireball and haste are delayed a level, but when they come, it’ll be sweet.

At 9th level (8th level sorcerer), you can invest in elemental adept to get over that pesky fire resistance and still not be too far behind, as your charisma is already 18.

[Dman]

snip

seems like an interesting idea. I could definatly get behind it especially with the whole blowing up my enemies thing. Although I am considering warlock too so would have to think about it for a 3 class multi.

[Corran]

@Beechgnome
Some small corrections...



then quicken Agannazar’s scorcher on them, allowing you to wreathe yourself in phlegethos flames.
Flames of Phlegethos ask only for a spell that deals fire damage, in order to wreathe yourself in flames. GFB is such a spell. It is not necessary to use a spell that expends spell slots, so since cantrips are classified as spells, GFB is enough to do the trick.

ps: Check for example the description of Nourishing Fire (level 14 phoenix ability). Nourishing fire requires specifically to use a fire spell that expends a spell slot. So while nourishing fire would not activate from GFB or even from our racial hellish rebuke, the flame wreathing effect from the Phlegethos flames does.


let them hit you and then hellish rebuke them plus the d4+4.
I am assuming you meant that the d4+4 damage is the damage that they take because they hit you, and not damage that gets added to the hellish rebuke. Right?

ps: Not familiar with forge clerics, but clerics in general dont get hellish rebuke, and neither do sorcerers. Is that a forge cleric thing? Because I didnt see it in the benefits you listed for the forge cleric.
Edit: Nvm, it's from the tiefling... (though it would be good to have it as a spell from class, to use it more often)

--------------------------------------------

I am not convinced that a cleric or a paladin dip is the best idea here. This is because I dont think a phoenix sorc gish should focus too much on increasing their AC. You kinda want to get hit, so that the enemy will take damage in return. Now, I am not saying that AC is not important for us, but pumping our survivability via increasing our effective HP would accomplish our goals better. This is where armor of agathys comes in, and why I think that a warlock dip is the ideal choice for a phoenix sorcerer.

As for race, I would stick with tiefling, so that I could take the feat flames of phlegethos, as you suggested.


I haven't looked at this much, but here is what I have:

Class: Warlock (Hexblade) 1/ Sorcerer (Phoenix) 19 (or 2/18 perhaps, or even 5/15 for a GWM but meh...)
*(Start as a warlock, for the WIS save proficiency)
Race: Tiefling
Stats: STR 8, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 8+1= 9, WIS 10, CHA 15+2= 17
Feats/ ASI's: Flames of Phlegethos (+1CHA), +2 CHA (20), resilient con (16), Warcaster, +2 CON (18)
Final stats: STR 8, DEX 14, CON 18, INT 9, WIS 10, CHA 20
AC: 19 (Halplate + Shield), +5 with the shield spell (Reaction) ; we might want to get warcaster earlier to equip the shield...
(yeah, that sounds logical, rely on AC at lower levels, so take warcaster early, and then at later levels you have AoA too.)

Hellish rebuke makes a very good use of our reaction once you get access to nourishing fire (phoenix 14), but it competes with shield for 1st level slots, so it would be better to use 2nd level slots with hellish rebuke so that we can keep all our 1st level slots available to be used with the shield spell.
(Obviously, use shield if against a mob, and hellish rebuke if against a boss)

Armor of agathys is perhaps the best tool at the hands of gishes with quick spell slot progression and high level spell slots. It allows us to stay in melee without worrying too much, and having more hp means delivering more punishment via both mantle of flame (phoenix 2) and the flame of phlegethos feat.

Strategy
When mantle of flame is used: mantle of flame + AoA + stoneskin (concentration) + hellish rebuke (reaction) + GFB (action) + scorching ray (bonus action).

When mantle of flame is off: Use shield with your reaction, DONT use stoneskin with your concentration.

There are perhaps some advantages for going with 2 levels in warlock (thinking mostly of repelling blast, not convinced about flase vigor...), and perhaps a lot can be said about undying light instead of hexblade, but t this point, I think that just 1 level in hexblade is all the phoenix sorcerer needs to operate at its best in combat.
Though yeah, I haven't put that much thought into all this.

[Beechgnome]

@Beechgnome
snip


Yeah, I assumed Flames meant spell and not cantrip. If it means both, than no need to scorch. As for Hellish rebuke, yes, its the tiefling thing and that damage is separate but piled on.

You bring up an interesting point, that you might actually want a lower, but not low, AC to encourage attacks against you, and I gotta say, the Armor of Agathys build does the trick. It seems a dangerous game to play though, but then, that's the life of a Phoenix Sorcerer.

As a fluff aside, it's a bit weird though isn't it? Your wreathed in flames via phoenix mantle and your infernal heritage, and yet a spectral frost covers you, and you deal both fire and cold damage when hit. It's D&D, so it's doable, and it's not as if prismatic spray can't hit you with a red and blue beam at the same time... but it's odd.

It's like if you were a wizard and you cast two different colored fire shields on yourself, one on top of the other, which you can do since it's not concentration. I guess those flames would be purple.

[Corran]

As a fluff aside, it's a bit weird though isn't it? Your wreathed in flames via phoenix mantle and your infernal heritage, and yet a spectral frost covers you, and you deal both fire and cold damage when hit. It's D&D, so it's doable, and it's not as if prismatic spray can't hit you with a red and blue beam at the same time... but it's odd.

It's like if you were a wizard and you cast two different colored fire shields on yourself, one on top of the other, which you can do since it's not concentration. I guess those flames would be purple.
Heh, ''bit weird'' is certainly an understatement.:smallsmile:
Perhaps some creative refluffing could save the day, but it's too much you have to justify. Stoneskin (''earth!''), armor of agathys (''water!''), phoenix stuff (''fire!''), plus all of the hexblade stuff (which I would personally just ignore, cause personal preferences:smalltongue:)..... Imagine what will happen after you flesh out the build more, and add some AoE's and/or damagin spells of different damage typ just to diversify your damage (BB, vitriolic sphere, etc)....
Perhaps a follower of Tiamat could justify some of these and how they mix? Doubtfull....
(It's funny, cause I am loosely basing this build on an old 4e tiefling character, who did happen to be a follower of Tiamat)
Fluff/flavour wise it is certainly a big mess.

[Khrysaes]

Heh, ''bit weird'' is certainly an understatement.:smallsmile:
Perhaps some creative refluffing could save the day, but it's too much you have to justify. Stoneskin (''earth!''), armor of agathys (''water!''), phoenix stuff (''fire!''), plus all of the hexblade stuff (which I would personally just ignore, cause personal preferences:smalltongue:)..... Imagine what will happen after you flesh out the build more, and add some AoE's and/or damagin spells of different damage typ just to diversify your damage (BB, vitriolic sphere, etc)....
Perhaps a follower of Tiamat could justify some of these and how they mix? Doubtfull....
(It's funny, cause I am loosely basing this build on an old 4e tiefling character, who did happen to be a follower of Tiamat)
Fluff/flavour wise it is certainly a big mess.

Pick up the elemental cantrips, and you are the Avatar.

[Corran]

Sorry for bringing this thread back up, but I had a couple of questions in regard to phoenix spark and so I thought to ask here instead of starting a new thread.

Here are the questions.
1) How does phoenix spark work? Do you actually drop unconscious and then pop up in 1 hp, or instead of falling unconscious you are reduced to 1 hp?

2) Also, when later saying that if you are using this when mantle of flame is active, do you get to deal only damage (augmented), or does the ''drop to 1 hp'' part still hold true?