Optimization So you want to play an archer? An analysis of the archer concept in D&D 5E [Archive]

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TheBirba

2017-05-30, 12:53 AM

So you want to play an archer?

This is my first D&D guide and still WIP
English is not my first language
UA is not allowed at my table so I don’t keep myself much updated with it, therefore I will only consider official material.
All of the information below comes from direct gaming experience on different levels, however every table is different so ymmv.

1st June 17: added races breakdown; Ranger's Colossus Slayer vs Horde Breaker breakdown; added To Do list.
2nd June 17: expanded colour guide; minor modification to classes; added spells breakdown; added magic initiate to feats; added Dancing Lights, Bless, Divine Favour to the spells.
15th June 17: Added Alert to feat list; added bits and pieces about CEx; added link to DeAnno (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?60701-DeAnno)'s analysis of UA options.
4th September 18: Fixed some formatting.

Races breakdown;
Spell options;
Magic items breakdown;
Dex vs Feat for each class evaluation;
Crossbow Expert re-evaluation for Rogues;
Multiclassing options;
Builds
Battlemaster Manouvers breakdown;
Xanathar's Guide to Everything Subclasses.

Table of contents

Introduction
Colour guide
Races
Feats
Classes
Relevant Spells
Conclusions

As per the disclaimer, I never play tested UA thoroughly and therefore will not be giving any advice on it. DeAnno (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?60701-DeAnno) has written a post with his independent views here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22061319&postcount=64).

Introduction
The archer is by far my favourite archetype in any game, and D&D is no different. While looking online I found a lot of threads and suggestions about how to implement the concept in the game, but no real comprehensive analysis, so I thought I’d give it a go.

Colour guide
Purple: Meh, or your least priority.
Black: Ok, suboptimal choice.
Sky blue: Good, not your top priority but not a bad choice.
Gold: Oh God, yes, top priority.

Races
In 5E, any race can be a great archer, so pick whatever you like. If you use point buy, you will want a race with a bonus in Dex to start with a 16.
Human (Variant): If variant Humans are allowed, they’re probably the best of the races, as the bonus feat will let you reach 20 Dex faster. Their lack of darkvision can hurt at some tables though. If not allowed, than there are better choices than the standard Human.
High/Wood Elf: Darkvision, and longbow proficiency for Rogues and Bards under lvl 3. The High Elves are great for any archer thanks to their bonus cantrip and Wood Elves are also good for the extra 5ft movement.
Feral Tiefling (SCAG): Darkvision and flying speed are great. That is if they are allowed.
Aaaracockra (SCAG): Not allowed in AL league play, but otherwise just a tiny worse than the Feral Tiefling because of their lack of darkvision.
Tabaxi (VOLO): Darkvision, Feline Agility and proficiency in two great skills make Tabaxies very good archers. Plus I love cats, so there’s that.
Bugbear (VOLO): Darkvision, better caring capacity, stealth proficiency and surprise damage are not bad at all.
Goblin (VOLO): Darkvision, mini cunning action and bonus damage every rest are great. The fact that you're a small creature (see gnome below) take it down a notch.
Half-Elf: Not a bad choice, you get darkvision and two bonus skill proficiencies, but not much else.
Drow: To be chosen only if you manage to protect yourself from the sunlight, but even then it’s just ok as it doesn’t really bring anything to the archer table.
Forest/Deep Gnome: Darkvision and minor illusion are nice, but the small size means you will have to stay away from the longbow and heavy crossbow. The Deep Gnome (SCAG) trades the cantrip for a better darkvision.
Kobold (VOLO): You're small and have sunlight sensitivity. Otherwise darkvision, Pact Tactics and Growel Cower and Beg are pretty good.
Halfling (any): Same as the gnome above, but without darkvision.
Air Genasi (EE): Not much other than the stat bump.
Kenku (VOLO): See Air Genasi, the bonus proficiencies are decent though.

Feats
Sharpshooter (SS):
Unless you play a Rogue, you want sharpshooter asap.
Sharpshooter has three effects:
1) it lets you add 10 damage each shot you take,
2) it lets you shoot at max range without disadvantage,
3) it lets you ignore enemies’ cover.
1) Is fantastic for Fighters, great for Rangers and Bards and meh for Rogues. 2) and 3) are great for everyone, but will depend on your DM - if all your fights are in dungeon rooms and your DM ignores cover, for instance, the value of these benefits is obviously greatly diminished.
More on why each class gets different benefit on the section below.
For why and how the value of SS diminishes depending on base damage, see this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472938-Great-Weapon-Mastery-How-to-5-10-Like-a-Pro) thread.
Crossbow Expert (CEx):
If you want to be a crossbowman rather than an archer, Crossbow Expert is even more important than SS.
The feat gives you the following:
1) it lets you perform a bonus action attack with your hand crossbow, if you take the attack action to attack with the same weapon;
2) it lets you use the extra attack ability when using crossbows;
3) it lets you shoot at point blank range.
1) Is great Fighters, ok for Rangers and Bards (although potentially meh), and not that great for Rogues if you plan on using Cunning Action a lot; the whole point is to use your bonus action for the extra attack with a Hand Crossbow, which has great synergy with SS. 2) is mostly for fluff reasons to multi-attack with a Heavy Crossbow (1 more damage than the Long Bow per attack). The ability to shoot at point-blank range is quite good on paper - and the only reason why a Rogue should take the feat in my opinion, as to me Cunning Action is more important - but aren't you supposed to be killing things from a distance?
The problem with CEx is the same with dual-wielding: action economy. Fighters don't have much use for their bonus actions, but everyone else does. The bonus attack sounds very good on paper, but from actual game experience you will be spending more turns casting spells or using cunning action than attacking.
Lucky: This is great for any class in any situation. If you have an ASI to spare, rerolling a missed SS hit can be quite nice.
Magic Initiate: Use this to pick Find Familiar and a couple of cantrips. Not as useful for Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights, who can get the spell without spending a feat, but they could be looking at Bless.
Alert: A good choice for any class that is not a healer, and a great choice for Rogue (the best choice for Assassins).
Skulker: For the stealthy types, this can be good for Rogues and high level Rangers that don't know what else to pick.

Classes
In 5e there are 4 classes that can be accomplished archers: Fighters, Rangers, Rogues and Bards.

Fighter:
Fighters get the most ASI’s which help with getting to max 20 early while grabbing Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert. Fighter archers are the least MAD of the lot, and with the Urchin background they can also be your party Rogue if you lack one.
Archery fighting style: At level 1, Fighters get a +2 to using range weapons, which is huge by itself and even better with Sharpshooter.
Action Surge: Or why a 2-level dip in Fighter is always good.
Archetypes: All three fighter archetypes can make a good archer. Between Champion, Battle Master and Eldritch Knight I prefer the Battle Master myself, although there is no “best” archetype. I like the BM because of Precision Strike, which lets you turn a SS miss into a hit, and the extra crowd control (and damage) abilities. Eldritch Knight also lets you crowd control, but it’s mostly built for melee in my eyes and requires high Intelligence. Sure, you get Haste:, but that’s at lvl 14 and you may very well get someone else to cast that on you 8 lvls prior to that, and if you want to play an arcane archer that imbues his/her arrows with magic you are better off with Ranger or Bard. Champions get better crit chance and initiative, and that's about it.
Extra attacks: The reason why SS is so good for fighters compared to other classes. At lvl 11 (for humans, lvl 12 for others), with SS, CEx and 20 DEX, assuming all SS attacks hit you are looking at 74 average damage per round, without a magic weapon or using action surge (add 55.5 to that). At lvl 20, it gets even better.

Ranger:
In my opinion, the Ranger should be the archer class, however the devs obviously see it in a different way. The Ranger fits the theme of the sniper in the wild quite nicely, and its spellcasting ability adds flavour to your arrow shots. It also is the best equipped AoE damage dealer of the lot, while having decent crowd control capabilities.
Since each blow does more damage thanks to Hunter’s Mark, Rangers gain lesser benefit from SS. CEx is also difficult to evaluate, as if you cast a lot of spells you will have less bonus actions to use for your extra attack. If you're playing a low level campaign however (1-5), CEx is great with Hunter's Mark, but only if your target will last for a few turns.
Archery fighting style: Same as Fighters, but one level later.
Spellcasting: Many of the Ranger’s spells are meant to enhance their archery skills, and they all very flavourful. The problem? Most, if not all of them, are concentration, which means no flashy magical arrows when Hunter’s Mark, Conjure Animals or what have you are up.
Archetypes: Not including UA, the Ranger is stuck to the Hunter archetype to be a truly efficient archer. Pick Colossus Slayer or Horde Breaker (for help on which to choose, look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?377065-Colossus-Slayer-vs-Horde-Breaker-Reference-Table)). The Volley ability (lvl 11) is way less awesome that it sounds, as in most occasions you will not have more than two targets within 10 feet, and at that point you’re probably better off with just attacking twice.
Extra Attack: You get only one like the Bard, but it still is pretty great combined with SS.

Rogue:
The more I play them, the more I feel Rogues make the best archers in the game, although in a very particular way. Using your cunning action each turn to assure you a Sneak Attack (SA) you can very well act as the lone hidden sniper who follows the one shot, one kill rule.
As mentioned before, Rogues benefit the least from both SS and CEx: you will want your one attack to hit, and with the lack of the Archery Fighting Style that -5 is a lot to take even with Advantage on the attack roll. If you don't plan to use your bonus action for Cunning Action though, CEx is certainly better. SS scales best with multiple attacks, and SA scales greatly of its own. Mathematically, the higher the SA damage, the least value SS gets. The ability to ignore cover and range is what a Rogue that chooses Sharpshooter should look at. Rogues don’t get proficiency with Longbows though, and the lack of reach can hurt depending on the setting.
CEx can possibly be better, assuming you get to use the bonus action as an extra attack (extra chance to land SA) instead of hide or dash. I suppose it depends on your play style, but the way I see it, Rogues can very well do without both feats.
Rogues should focus on getting to Dex 20 asap. Since they get one extra ASI at level 10 and are with the Fighter the least MAD archer class, and with less need to get SS and CEx they can just go crazy with whatever feats they want.
Sneak Attack: The signature ability of the Rogue keep you consistent in damage with all other martial classes and works just wonderfully for the archer concept.
Cunning Action: Hide with your bonus action, shoot with your action with advantage and SA. Rinse and repeat.
Archetypes: As per the Fighter, all archetypes will do just fine. Assassins get that first round nova which really gives you that sniper feeling and not much else, but my favourite is the Arcane Trickster, which gives you access to Minor Illusion (easy cover to hide in), Invisibility and Greater Invisibility. Thieves don’t directly enhance your archery skills, but they’re not a bad archetype at all and have the best soft capstone in the game at lvl17.

Bards:
To be honest, when I started writing this guide, before I played one, I meant not to include the Bard - reason being that most of the arguments you read about them being good archers is “Magical Secrets, get Swift Quiver”. Thing is, while Bards don’t get SA or the Archery Fighting Style, they are full casters who can access to a whole lot of other useful stuff.
SS is mandatory for this build (use your spells to get advantage on the shot). CEx is a bit of a trap since it competes with your Bardic Inspiration; even worse at higher levels, when you will be using Swift Quiver (10) or Battle Magic (14).
Spellcasting: As mentioned, Bards are full spellcasters and have as such heaps of ways to enhance their archery prowess and get advantage on their shots; you get Fairie Fire from lvl 1 (awesome spell in any situation), Greater Invisibility at level 7, Swift Quiver at level 10 via Magical Secret etc. Basically you’re playing an arcane archer whose only weakness compared to the Ranger is a -2 to hit, which you can offset with much better spells.
Archetypes: Valor, no question. You get proficiency with the longbow and heavy crossbow, Combat Inspiration, an Extra Attack at lvl 6 and the fantastic Battle Magic at lvl 14. Lore Bards are just better off using their action for a spell rather than an arrow.

Relevant Spells
Note: in this section I'll give a a rating for the spell itself in term in relation to the impact it has on your archery skills and a separate rating for each class as a choice. Lest I repeat myself more often than note, I will not consider spells under 3rd level for the Bard's Magical Secrets choice.

Dancing Lights: Eats your concentration and only illuminates 20ft, but has crazy good range. Can have its uses.
Light: For those races lacking dark vision. (action, VM)
Mending: Rating assumes your DM tracks arrows and you can just fix broken ones with this. (action, VSM)
Minor Illusion: Need cover? Just conjure a 5 foot wall to hide behind. (action, SM)

Absorb Elements (EE): On-demand resistance to an element is great, unfortunately the rider effects does not work on ranged attacks. Only on Ranger and Eldritch Knight's spell list. Arcane Tricksters have no use for it after level 5. (reaction, S)
Beast Sense: Maybe for some weird Crossbow Expert melee Ranger build? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ok, no. (action, VSM, concentration, ritual)
Bless: Not a terrible choice for Magic Initiate, but you're better off having someone else cast this on you instead or Multiclass. (action, VSM, concentration)
Divine Favor: Reduces the value of SS, increases the value of CEx. You can only get this via Multiclassing - with War Cleric rather than Paladin. (bonus action, VS, concentration)
Expeditious Retreat: Reduces the value of CEx. Useless for Rogues who get this for free, not worth it even for other classes since it's on neither spell list. (bonus action, VM, concentration)
Fairie Fire: Only available to Bards. Best use of your concentration for a long time. (action, V)
Find Familiar: Get an owl, have it use the help action each turn to give you advantage on the attack roll for maximum profit. Easy to get for Eldritch Knight, better than Shield for Arcane Tricksters. The best choice for Magic Initiate. (VSM, 1 hour, ritual)
Fog Cloud: Decent option for Rangers, not worth it for anybody else. (action, VS, concentration)
Hail of Thorns: Another decent option for Rangers only, unfortunately it's concentration. Not worth it for anybody else. (bonus action, V, concentration)
Hunter's Mark: Reduces the value of SS and increases the value of CEx. Rangers are king of ranged damage at low levels thanks to this, too bad most of all other interesting spells in their list are also concentration. Not worth it for anybody else. (bonus action, V, concentration).
Shield: Automatic pick for EK, good option for AT, not worth it for Rangers. (reaction, V)
Silent Image: Ok pick for AT, not so much for the others. (action, VSM, concentration)

Blindness/Deafness: Targets Constitution, gives you advantage on attack rolls and also protects you party. I would rate it better if it wasn’t that the target gets new a saving throw each turn. Not worth it for AT and EK, may be situationally useful for Bards. (action, V, concentration)
Blur: I personally never liked this spell, and prefer Mirror Image. Only really a choice for AT. (action, V, concentration)
Darkness: Can be used for field control, but it’s only an option for AT or those races that get it natively. (action, VM, concentration)
Hold Person: Better overall than Blindness/Deafness (targets Wisdom and prevents the enemy to act) but you’re better off having someone else cast it. Not worth it for AT and EK, may be situationally useful for Bards. (action, V, concentration)
Invisibility: Can be useful to set up an ambush or to get to a safe spot when you need it. Good choice for AT and Bards, a little worse for EK (action, VSM, concentration)
Magic Weapon: This would be a decent spell for both AT and EK, but you can’t get it before level 8, and by then you should already have a magic weapon. If you don’t, then do consider it. (bonus action, VS, concentration)
Mirror Image: I personally love this spell, and prefer it over Blur since it’s not concentration. Only really a choice for AT though. EK may consider it. (action, VM)
Misty Step: One of my favourite spells in the game, but not in any of our archers spell list (cries). Probably the extra-list choice for EK. Rogues won’t miss it. (bonus action, V)
Pass Without Trace: The Ranger’s version of Invisibility, I guess. At least it extends to your allies which is pretty good. (action, VSM, concentration)
Spike Growth: Probably the best 2nd level spell for Rangers and, surprise! it's concentration (notice a trend?). (action, VSM, concentration)

Conjure Animals: Great spell unique to the Ranger (Bards probably won’t take it) and a direct DPR increase over Hunter’s Mark. Note that the DM chooses which animals spawn, not you. (action, VS, concentration).
Conjure Barrage: Your AoE upgrade over Hail of Thorns for Rangers. Damage is a bit meh (3d8, half with a save) but at least it’s not concentration for once. Bards have no reason to choose this. (action, VSM)
Elemental Weapon: Increases the value of CEx. Only available to Bards who choose this at lvl 10. You could consider it if you don’t already have a +2 weapon. Not worth it if you do. (action, VS, concentration).
Flame Arrows: Reduces the value of SS and increases the value of CEx. You would think this was a Ranger-only spell, instead it’s also on the Druid, Wizard and Sorcerer lists, which means you’re better off having someone else cast it on you. Both Bards and Rangers have better use of their concentration at this point (so do your party allies, to be fair). (action, VS, concentration)
Fly: Flying can have a lot of uses. Decent pick for both EK and AT. Bards[/B] will likely choose a higher spell. Of course don’t choose this spell if your char has other means of flying. (action, VSM, concentration)
Haste:: This is a must have for both EK and very well worth considering for Rogues at level 14. Bards will probably want to choose a higher spell level anyway. (action, VSM, concentration)
Lightning Arrow: Way better than Conjure Barrage for Rangers, worth considering for Bards just because it’s probably the coolest spell an archer can have. Too bad for the concentration requirement. (bonus action, VS, concentration)
Major Image: Could be worthwhile for AT for field control. (action, VSM, concentration)

Conjure Woodlland Beings: Since it’s the DM who chooses what creatures spawn, due to its options this is not as powerful as Conjure Animals:. Still a decent spell for Rangers, while Bards will want to skip this. (action, VSM, concentration)
Evard’s Black Tentacles: Imposing the restrained condition in an area is not a bad use of your concentration at all for Bards. Eldritch Knights will want Greater Invisibility instead, while Arcane Tricksters could consider it at lvl 20. (action, VSM, concentration)
Freedom of Movement: This spell gets a rating bump for not being concentration. Rangers don’t have many good alternatives at this level so they might as well take this and not worry about being grappled/restrained. Not a bad option for Bards either since it’s on their spell list. (action, VSM)
Greater Invisibility: This is the concentration spell for Bards from as as early as level 7. AT get it at level 19 and EK at 20. Better late than never. (action, VS, concentration)

Conjure Volley: Great range and radius, good damage, no concentration and super cool effect. If you're a Ranger, you should have it. If you're a Bard you have a harder competition, since it doesn't scale (you might just as well take Fireball and fluff it as an exploding arrow). (action, VSM)
Swift Quiver: Greatly diminishes the value of CEx (Unless you switch to a heavy Crossbow for the duration). Rangers should have this as well, it's just a matter of which to choose first. Oddly enough this is even better for Bards since they get it a level 10. Note that this spell also solves your ammo issues.

Conclusions
In my opinion, Fighters make the best archers along with Rogues, with Bards coming right behind them. The three classes have very different play styles so you can safely choose the one that has the most appealing flavour to you. Rangers are not terrible by any means, but lose a lot of steam after lvl 5 and in my opinion need a serious rework in the next official book.
So there you have it, I hope you enjoyed reading this guide and of course please do post your comments/criticism/insults right below.

TheBirba

2017-05-30, 12:54 AM

[reserved for possible future additions]

Malifice

2017-05-30, 01:05 AM

'Get a horse'.

When mounted you can use your horses movement speed (60' for the horse) and it can use its action to dash and disengage (leaving your action and bonus action free for the round to shoot things).

Great for kiting.

TripleD

2017-05-30, 02:32 AM

Really well done.

One additional option I've been looking at is Elf + Way of Shadows Monk. Definitely not a conventional archer, but the speed boost, "dodge as a bonus action" and "deflecting missiles" gives it some interesting defensive options that you don't get from many other places.

StoicLeaf

2017-05-30, 03:12 AM

I think you're overselling the rogue's cunning hide.
Popping out of the same spot is liable to the dm not giving you advantage, and often the terrain doesn't allow for you to pick out a new poke hole.

imanidiot

2017-05-30, 03:48 AM

StoicLeaf

2017-05-30, 04:23 AM

A Lightfoot Halfling will be able to find somewhere to hide most of the time.

I'm not questioning the hiding bit, I'm questioning the repetitive attack pattern.

JAL_1138

2017-05-30, 07:00 AM

Bloodcloud

2017-05-30, 07:42 AM

I think you vastly underestimate crossbow expert for rogues. An extra chance to land sneak attack is highly valuable and only gets more so as you level up. And sometimes you just really need something to be dead yesterday and pumping every ressources in damage is the best strategy. Crossbow expert allows that.

jaappleton

2017-05-30, 08:03 AM

First: Well done. The Archer is somethhing that can be made so many different ways, so having all this analysis in one place is great. So, well done.

Secondly, I do think you're short changing the Feats for a Rogues just a bit. Also, it is important to note that without Crossbow Expert, the single attacks of the Rogue means hit or miss, all or nothing. IMO, that's a big drawback (Pardon the pun). I wait all round for my turn to swing and miss? That's disheartening. Just something to note.

Third, any shot of evaluating the Unearthed Arcana archetypes? I know not all tables allow them, but I think they should be discussed.

tieren

2017-05-30, 08:22 AM

You might also want to discuss the biggest handicap of an archer, ammunition (as opposed to say a melee character).

I find mending to be a big help here. After each fight (when practical) I try to collect what ammo I can, my DM lets me get about 50% back (locatable and not broken), with mending I can increase that to 75% to also get the broken ones back.

Carry two quivers for a base of 40 arrows and should be okay for most adventures.

dejarnjc

2017-05-30, 08:33 AM

Grod_The_Giant

2017-05-30, 08:36 AM

rooneg

2017-05-30, 09:06 AM

Agreed that you're selling crossbow expert short for a Rogue. A rogue wants to maximize the chance to hit with their Sneak Attack every single turn. The strategy assumes you're using bonus action Hide at the end of each round, not the beginning, but once you're doing that it means you've got the option to take a second shot with your Bonus Action if you missed with your first one. This maximizes your chance of hitting with Sneak Attack each round (assuming that you can trigger Sneak Attack without the advantage from Hide, presumably because you're shooting at an enemy who's adjacent to one of your allies).

Also, it's criminal to mention Arcane Trickster and not the fact that you can grab Find Familiar as one of your spells at Level 3, which gives you another way to get Advantage!

Other stuff you might want to consider including is an evaluation of the various archer oriented magic items. I'm personally trying to figure out how much to value the Oathbow, for example, relative to a +2 Longbow. The Longbow is my primary go-to weapon, but for BBEG fights I'm trying to figure out if picking up an Oathbow as an alternative weapon is worthwhile.

Maxilian

2017-05-30, 10:19 AM

For people pointing out the usefulness of Crossbow expert, does it not bring the problem that you will have to use your bonus action attack to make a melee attack? (maybe you can throw your weapon)

rooneg

2017-05-30, 10:33 AM

For people pointing out the usefulness of Crossbow expert, does it not bring the problem that you will have to use your bonus action attack to make a melee attack? (maybe you can throw your weapon)

Umm, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Someone who takes Crossbow Expert is unlikely to ever be using their bonus action to make a melee attack, they're either using it to make a hand crossbow attack (assuming their other hand is empty), or they're using it for a Cunning Action (if they're a Rogue).

Maxilian

2017-05-30, 10:38 AM

Umm, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Someone who takes Crossbow Expert is unlikely to ever be using their bonus action to make a melee attack, they're either using it to make a hand crossbow attack (assuming their other hand is empty), or they're using it for a Cunning Action (if they're a Rogue).

NVM, i assumed that if you have Crossbow Expert, you couldn't use the Attack action to attack with the crossbow and then use the bonus action to attack with the same crossbow again.

NOTE: I was talking about the second chance of hitting with the Sneaking attack

Corran

2017-05-30, 02:57 PM

Specter

2017-05-30, 03:10 PM

Things I suggest/can't agree with:

- Anyone who intends to call themselves an archer needs the Archery fighting style. No exceptions. +2 to all your attacks are too much to be ignored.
- You rate the Eldritch Knight as black, while the Battlemaster is gold. Then below, you rate the Arcane Trickster as the best archetype for archery because it gives you Minor Illusion, Invisibility and Greater Invisibility. Eldritch Knight gives you the same things, except one level later. Additionally, EKs also have much better reaction uses through Shield/Absorb Elements than any archer. You should mention those things.
- If you find a way to add more damage dice to your attack (like a Ranger or Rogue multiclass), you should give Champion a try. A normal crit is not scary, but when 5d6 are riding on that attack it becomes serious.
- Ranger spellcasting as black is a massive understatement. Ensnaring Strike can leave a foe completely powerless for one or more rounds, along with the damage. Conjure Barrage has insane range. Lightning Arrow/Hail of Thorns are like an arrow smite that can damage multiple foes. Conjure Volley is like a Fireball with twice as much radius (so, four times the area). Swift Quiver gives you as many attacks as a level-20 fighter. Black? What?

Maxilian

2017-05-30, 03:39 PM

Things I suggest/can't agree with:

- You rate the Eldritch Knight as black, while the Battlemaster is gold. Then below, you rate the Arcane Trickster as the best archetype for archery because it gives you Minor Illusion, Invisibility and Greater Invisibility. Eldritch Knight gives you the same things, except one level later. Additionally, EKs also have much better reaction uses through Shield/Absorb Elements than any archer. You should mention those things.

Arcabe Trickster give you acess to Sneak Attack (this is the main reason he rated it so high), Though i do agree that EK could be a really good archer.

Specter

2017-05-30, 03:57 PM

Arcabe Trickster give you acess to Sneak Attack (this is the main reason he rated it so high), Though i do agree that EK could be a really good archer.

I know. I'm talking specifically about the rating of the rogue archetypes, not the rogue itself.

Maxilian

2017-05-30, 04:00 PM

I know. I'm talking specifically about the rating of the rogue archetypes, not the rogue itself.

But its weird to compare 2 subclasses from different classes, while ignoring the classes. (as the things that make the classes are what tell you if the subclass even work)

krunchyfrogg

2017-05-30, 04:10 PM

Nice guide.

Gtdead

2017-05-30, 04:24 PM

CE is better for rogues than you give it credit for. Using the bonus action for CE is strictly better than advantage and the fact that you can combine it with advantage sometimes, allows for 4 rolls per turn, which is pretty good for SA crits.

The damage lost from xbow is of no consequence once you get some more levels.

Crusher

2017-05-30, 08:45 PM

I dont know if this was mentioned (didnt read all the previous comments), but I am surprised that you rated horder breaker lower than collosus slayer. An archer can capitilize more easily of the horde breaker requirement (two enemies adjacent to each other) than a melee character, and if my memory serves right it takes 3 turn for collosus slayer to catch up with 1 impact for horder breaker (or something close enough).

I agree strongly. Certainly, enemies don't *always* stand close together, but its common enough that you will get those extra attacks fairly often. And given that the absolute key to maximizing SS's value is to get extra attacks, a good chance at an extra attacks seems a LOT more valuable than an extra +1d8 once/turn.

Something like a Ranger 5/War Cleric 1 can potentially get 4 attacks/round (briefly, and in the right situation) which can result in stupidly high amounts of damage.

TheBirba

2017-05-30, 09:40 PM

Regarding Bards: Crossbow Expert can be used in conjunction with Sharpshooter and the Elemental Weapon spell, which is actually stronger with a hand crossbow than Swift Quiver with a longbow if you don't have at least a +1 magic weapon. Swift Quiver overtakes it (by a small amount) with a +1 or +2 magic weapon. Elemental Weapon also has a longer duration, makes the weapon count as magical, and can be cast on others, if necessary. Swift Quiver is a great option, no argument, but don't count Elemental Weapon out. Crossbow Expert also has the (very valuable, in my experience) benefit of removing the penalty for shooting when an enemy is within 5ft. I wouldn't call it a trap option.

Dipping a level of Fighter to start, for Archery style and Constitution save proficiency really helps an archer bard's average damage and helps them keep their spells up.

Good suggestion, I should probably expand on which spells work better for each class.
As far as the Fighter dip, definitely worth it, but I didn't tackle the topic of multiclassing at all as a choice, maybe in the future.

First: Well done. The Archer is somethhing that can be made so many different ways, so having all this analysis in one place is great. So, well done.

Secondly, I do think you're short changing the Feats for a Rogues just a bit. Also, it is important to note that without Crossbow Expert, the single attacks of the Rogue means hit or miss, all or nothing. IMO, that's a big drawback (Pardon the pun). I wait all round for my turn to swing and miss? That's disheartening. Just something to note.

Third, any shot of evaluating the Unearthed Arcana archetypes? I know not all tables allow them, but I think they should be discussed.

No chance for UA, sorry, not going to analyse something I haven't actually play tested.
I'll address the CEx bit below.

You might also want to discuss the biggest handicap of an archer, ammunition (as opposed to say a melee character).

I find mending to be a big help here. After each fight (when practical) I try to collect what ammo I can, my DM lets me get about 50% back (locatable and not broken), with mending I can increase that to 75% to also get the broken ones back.

Carry two quivers for a base of 40 arrows and should be okay for most adventures.

Good point, should mention that proficiency with the Fletcher's tools and the mending spell can be very valuable.

I think you're significantly underselling Crossbow Expert, which I'd rank even more highly than Sharpshooter. It's an extra attack. It does extra damage, gives you the extra chance of hitting, lets you spread your damage over more targets, triggers things like Hunter's Mark an extra time, gives you an extra shot at landing things like Sneak Attack...

I also note that you haven't mentioned vHumans. Given how much of archery's power is tied up in the two feats, getting an extra at level 1 is invaluable.

I assume you mean CEx for Rogues? I did mention how CEx has synergy with Hunter's Mark.
The problem with CEx and Rogues (and other classes) is action economy. We value Cunning Action very high at our table, and I'd rather have the chance to dash/hide/disengage rather than an extra attack. Sure, it gives you a new chance to land SA, but so does Lucky. I'm not saying CEx is bad for Rogues, just that there are better options (+2 Dex, Lucky etc.). I should probably review that however. Cheers.
As far as vHuman vs other races, I haven't gone very in-depth about races just yet to avoid having to consider Darkvision and all the other features.

Agreed that you're selling crossbow expert short for a Rogue. A rogue wants to maximize the chance to hit with their Sneak Attack every single turn. The strategy assumes you're using bonus action Hide at the end of each round, not the beginning, but once you're doing that it means you've got the option to take a second shot with your Bonus Action if you missed with your first one. This maximizes your chance of hitting with Sneak Attack each round (assuming that you can trigger Sneak Attack without the advantage from Hide, presumably because you're shooting at an enemy who's adjacent to one of your allies).

Also, it's criminal to mention Arcane Trickster and not the fact that you can grab Find Familiar as one of your spells at Level 3, which gives you another way to get Advantage!

Other stuff you might want to consider including is an evaluation of the various archer oriented magic items. I'm personally trying to figure out how much to value the Oathbow, for example, relative to a +2 Longbow. The Longbow is my primary go-to weapon, but for BBEG fights I'm trying to figure out if picking up an Oathbow as an alternative weapon is worthwhile.

Good point about the Arcane Trickster (and Eldritch Knight) and Find Familiar, I literally forgot about that. I feel it's an inconsistent and cheesy tactic but it may very well work in some tables, giving a better score to CEx.
As far as the magical items are concerned, I may be doing that next. For now, since I suck at maths, consider advantage as a flat +5 to hit. It's not totally right, but it's a start.

I dont know if this was mentioned (didnt read all the previous comments), but I am surprised that you rated horder breaker lower than collosus slayer. An archer can capitilize more easily of the horde breaker requirement (two enemies adjacent to each other) than a melee character, and if my memory serves right it takes 3 turn for collosus slayer to catch up with 1 impact for horder breaker (or something close enough).

Personal choice, I like Colossus Slayer better for it's consistency. Horde Breaker is good, but it depends on the fight. There is a thread somewhere with a breakdown for the two, I'll find it and add it. 👍

Things I suggest/can't agree with:

- Anyone who intends to call themselves an archer needs the Archery fighting style. No exceptions. +2 to all your attacks are too much to be ignored.
- You rate the Eldritch Knight as black, while the Battlemaster is gold. Then below, you rate the Arcane Trickster as the best archetype for archery because it gives you Minor Illusion, Invisibility and Greater Invisibility. Eldritch Knight gives you the same things, except one level later. Additionally, EKs also have much better reaction uses through Shield/Absorb Elements than any archer. You should mention those things.
- If you find a way to add more damage dice to your attack (like a Ranger or Rogue multiclass), you should give Champion a try. A normal crit is not scary, but when 5d6 are riding on that attack it becomes serious.
- Ranger spellcasting as black is a massive understatement. Ensnaring Strike can leave a foe completely powerless for one or more rounds, along with the damage. Conjure Barrage has insane range. Lightning Arrow/Hail of Thorns are like an arrow smite that can damage multiple foes. Conjure Volley is like a Fireball with twice as much radius (so, four times the area). Swift Quiver gives you as many attacks as a level-20 fighter. Black? What?

Battle Master is sky blue, not gold, same as Arcane Trickster. I state that all the archetypes are good but to me, those are the best of the three for each class. Eldritch Knight works as an archer, but works best as a melee.
As above, I haven't looked at Multiclassing options yet, but that's good advice there.
About Ranger spell casting, I rated it ok because most spells are concentration. If you're fighting a horde of mooks then Conjure Volley/Barrage, Lightning Arrow and Hail of Thorns are all cool, but if you're fighting one or two enemies you're better off with Hunter's Mark/Conjure Animals. Concentration is a big limit in actual play.. Swift Quiver is great but it's at level 17 and eats your bonus action. It's not bad, it's just ok to me.

DragonSorcererX

2017-05-30, 09:57 PM

I love how Rangers are just rated "Ok" in the playstyle that should be their speciality.

Corran

2017-05-30, 10:02 PM

I love how Rangers are just rated "Ok" in the playstyle that should be their speciality.
There was a very old thread that analyzed classes & archery.
If I remember right, according to that thread, rangers were the best for levels 2-9.
I'll try to see if I can find it.

TheBirba

2017-05-30, 11:23 PM

There was a very old thread that analyzed classes & archery.
If I remember right, according to that thread, rangers were the best for levels 2-9.
I'll try to see if I can find it.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375185-Class-Comparisons-for-Ranged-Damage) is probably the one you referred to. The problem with this thread is the author did not weight Sharpshooter properly - I think he says so on page 2 or 3.

Nevertheless the Ranger is still the best ranged attacker before lvl 10, assuming you manage to keep Hunter's Mark up all the time (spoiler: you won't).

MeeposFire

2017-05-30, 11:46 PM

Yea cunning action is nice but you are WAY undervaluing that extra attack. There is a reason that TWF is considered great for melee rogues and crossbow expert is one of the few ways to get that same effect at range. Missing is a big deal with a rogue and that second attempt is huge. Also remember you can always choose to sue cunning action if you hit with the first attack or in other situations where dealing damage is less important. More options is a good thing not a bad thing.

MrWesson22

2017-05-31, 01:32 AM

Any plans to address multiclass builds? I plan to play a BM fighter 12, rogue 7 (undecided but leaning towards assassin for 1st round nova with action surge), revised ranger 1 in our next campaign.

Citan

2017-05-31, 03:26 AM

I think you're significantly underselling Crossbow Expert, which I'd rank even more highly than Sharpshooter. It's an extra attack. It does extra damage, gives you the extra chance of hitting, lets you spread your damage over more targets, triggers things like Hunter's Mark an extra time, gives you an extra shot at landing things like Sneak Attack...

I also note that you haven't mentioned vHumans. Given how much of archery's power is tied up in the two feats, getting an extra at level 1 is invaluable.
Well, I'd say it depends really. Let's not forget that Crossbow Expert requires you to actually use hand crossbows to get the bonus action attack. And its range is very decent, but still not that good, and totally ridiculous when compared to a longbow.
Granted, situations in which the extra range is really usable are generally scarce in campaigns but still, I could easily see how one could build his tactics around it and if necessary create himself the conditions of long-range sniping.

Yea cunning action is nice but you are WAY undervaluing that extra attack. There is a reason that TWF is considered great for melee rogues and crossbow expert is one of the few ways to get that same effect at range. Missing is a big deal with a rogue and that second attempt is huge. Also remember you can always choose to sue cunning action if you hit with the first attack or in other situations where dealing damage is less important. More options is a good thing not a bad thing.
Confer above point. Also, let's not forget that Cunning Action allows you to Hide. And when hidden you get advantage. Is it as good as a full additional attack for Sneak Attack? In most situations it's basically the same (you roll two die in both cases), you just trade some extra damage for the benefit of being hidden which grants some nice defensive boost.
IMO the true value of Crossbow Expert is to overcome the "melee disadvantage" and more generally giving you another option when hiding isn't an option, but a player which dedicates his character to "hide&seek" tactic has many ways to his disposal to ensure his tactic is always available. :)

So, as above, I agree with you that this is usually a very good pick, but a Rogue could very well do without by always staying careful and long-range. IMO, grabbing a level of Fighter for the Archery is much more important than grabbing Crossbow Expert. :)

2D8HP

2017-05-31, 09:44 AM

tieren

2017-05-31, 10:14 AM

Eh, this is just a guess but I bet most DMs don't require strict ammo counting.

I think that is a shame.

From an rp standpoint it makes sense the archery focused character would dedicate down time to replenishing his ammo with mending or fletcher tools.

From a story telling standpoint you can increase dramatic tension by running low on critical supplies.

Particularly at higher levels where you can start firing off ridiculous numbers of arrows with multiple extra attacks, action surges and haste, not tracking the ammo seems a bit overpowered.

Maxilian

2017-05-31, 11:06 AM

I think that is a shame.

From an rp standpoint it makes sense the archery focused character would dedicate down time to replenishing his ammo with mending or fletcher tools.

From a story telling standpoint you can increase dramatic tension by running low on critical supplies.

Particularly at higher levels where you can start firing off ridiculous numbers of arrows with multiple extra attacks, action surges and haste, not tracking the ammo seems a bit overpowered.

I normally make Archers with Woodcarving, so they can make simple wood arrows in short rest or something.

Note: At highter lvl is even more irrelevant, as PCs will have the gold to buy huge amount of arrows (they most likely have magic items, that make it easier for them to carry a lot of arrows)

tieren

2017-05-31, 11:31 AM

I normally make Archers with Woodcarving, so they can make simple wood arrows in short rest or something.

Note: At highter lvl is even more irrelevant, as PCs will have the gold to buy huge amount of arrows (they most likely have magic items, that make it easier for them to carry a lot of arrows)

But the only way those magic items are relevant is if the DM was requiring ammo counting in the first place, so the whole character drive to get such items is a function of trying to solve the ammo problem and is moot if there is no ammo problem to begin with.

I mean the quiver of ehlonna is a great magic item for an archer for just this reason.

If you don't have a problem to be solved finding the solutions in the game is a bit lackluster.

edit:
You also need to consider the size and weight of the arrows, individually may not be significant but by the 100 could be an issue. I've had low level characters get pack animals and carry bundles of them, but then you need to think about protecting the pack animals when the group goes in a dungeon/temple/cave/whatever, which might mean henchmen, which also drains on the gold resources etc...

If you just hand wave all the issues away you are denying yourself good rp opportunities and incentives to improve (with bags of holding or portable holes or whatever).

Maxilian

2017-05-31, 11:35 AM

But the only way those magic items are relevant is if the DM was requiring ammo counting in the first place, so the whole character drive to get such items is a function of trying to solve the ammo problem and is moot if there is no ammo problem to begin with.

I mean the quiver of ehlonna is a great magic item for an archer for just this reason.

If you don't have a problem to be solved finding the solutions in the game is a bit lackluster.

Well items to carry those things? i mean... players will get those things regardless (like Bag of Holding), if its counted, then the Bag of Holding will have many arrows along with all the treasure and trash PCs like to keep, if not, then it won't be mentioned for that but the PC will still want a Bag of Holding (or something like that).

Note: I don't think that's a problem that is actually interesting for the players to solve.

tieren

2017-05-31, 11:44 AM

bag of holding's interior is 2 feet in diameter and 4 feet deep (about the size of a barrel), that will fold a good bundle or two of arrows (lets say 200) but not infinite.

If your an 11th level fighter pumping dozens of arrows every combat it won't last you a couple of days until you are out again, unless you worry about recovery and replacement.

JAL_1138

2017-05-31, 11:53 AM

It's worth noting that magic items can be scarce, and are entirely at the DM's whim in this edition. It isn't like 3.X or 4e where you can duck down to Ye Olde Magick Shoppe and pick what you want because the rules say you can. Most optimization questions should consider things like DPR, AC, and other build considerations under the assumption of having no items, or caveat any calculations based on having magic items with something like "if you can get X item..."

Even something so simple as a Bag of Holding may be tough to get ahold of. Especially in League, where you either have to get lucky, play a mod that has one in the specified loot, and be one of the characters with the lowest item count to be able to call dibs on loot, or have an Uncommon someone wants to trade for a BoH (which few people want to part with), and where you can't use gold to buy any permanent magic items without going to a Fai Chen's booth at a convention or event.

rooneg

2017-05-31, 03:14 PM

Even something so simple as a Bag of Holding may be tough to get ahold of. Especially in League, where you either have to get lucky, play a mod that has one in the specified loot, and be one of the characters with the lowest item count to be able to call dibs on loot, or have an Uncommon someone wants to trade for a BoH (which few people want to part with), and where you can't use gold to buy any permanent magic items without going to a Fai Chen's booth at a convention or event.

Ironic how Quiver of Ehlonna has ended up being one of the most desirable uncommon magic items on the secondary magic item trading market, yet it's almost useless because most DMs in league games don't bother to track ammunition or really care terribly much if you've got multiple Longbows on your back.

(That said, I did go to some relatively extreme lengths to get mine, because if you're going to have an archer you should also have a magical quiver!)

TheBirba

2017-05-31, 09:21 PM

I have updated the first post with a more detailed analysis of each race that provides a Dex bonus and a list of future additions.

Crgaston

2017-05-31, 09:59 PM

Thanks for putting this together. Archers are my favorite to the point that I have to consciously make myself play a melee character sometimes.

With the close Quarters Shooter fighting style (from UA, I know) plus Archery style, that's +3 to hit, no penalty inside 5' and ignoring cover inside 30'. Either the Champion (at level 10) or some combination of F1+/R2+ can grab both these which really bumps your accuracy.

Chain Warlocks make fantastic "archers" as well, with a familiar for advantage, possibly Hex (which mine never uses), forced movement potential on every shot and no ammo to manage.

Corran

2017-05-31, 10:11 PM

My favorite class option is to start with a level in Fighter (Archery Fighting Style is yummy, but there's a lot else, HP for one), and then go Rogue, at least until you can do 2d6 Sneak Attack damage.

Get a mark accommodating co-player to play a PC with a high CON, with either heavy armor, or a level in Barbarian and a high DEX, who will stand next to to foe, then you Sneak Attack the foe with your bow.

Use Cunning Action (when you get it) to stay out of melee range.

Then profit!
Archery style and cunning action. Both extremelly important for an archer, agreed 100%.
It's very interesting that the revised ranger gets both of these (well they already had the archery fighting style, but they added the disengage as a bonus action part). Considering that the ranger is supposed to make for a good archer, I think it was intentional and spot on. Meaning, that the design of the revised ranger kind of confirms your thoughts on how important disengage as a bonus action is for an archer (if it wasn't already obvious to anyone).

Just don't let the rest of the party convince you to "scout ahead", especially at low levels.
I feel there is a story behind this... :smalltongue:

Sigreid

2017-05-31, 10:23 PM

I think that is a shame.

From an rp standpoint it makes sense the archery focused character would dedicate down time to replenishing his ammo with mending or fletcher tools.

From a story telling standpoint you can increase dramatic tension by running low on critical supplies.

Particularly at higher levels where you can start firing off ridiculous numbers of arrows with multiple extra attacks, action surges and haste, not tracking the ammo seems a bit overpowered.

And it's fun when the high level fighter realizes that if he action surges he empties his quiver in 3 rounds. :smallbiggrin:

TheBirba

2017-06-01, 07:02 PM

Updated with spells.

Naanomi

2017-06-01, 07:17 PM

I find the halfling ability to reroll 1s is a marked improvement in accuracy, especially if you have advantage. My handcrossbow/battlemaster is much better for being a halfling

Also, in the same line of accuracy... 'magic Initiate: bless' is hard to beat

When throwing out 5 attacks around, and wanting to exploit sharpshooter... every ounce of accuracy helps notably

TheBirba

2017-06-01, 07:32 PM

Also, in the same line of accuracy... 'magic Initiate: bless' is hard to beat

When throwing out 5 attacks around, and wanting to exploit sharpshooter... every ounce of accuracy helps notably

I considered adding that, but you're comparing 1 minute of +1d4 once a day to constant advantage given by a familiar.

Corran

2017-06-01, 07:51 PM

Dancing lights could be of exceptional, though somewhat situational, value. It is concentration, but it has better range than light, and that can be important if you find yourself fighting another archer (sniper duel!).

For the same reason as above, I think you could make a note on races (eg drows) or features (eg devil's sight) that expand the range of your darkvision. Granted, most campaigns probably dont pay much attention to such stuff, but better sight range (and exploiting visibility conditions) is probably one of the best tools for a dedicated archer. Being part of a group kind of cuts down that point, but if you are in a group that likes to play tactically, or if you have a DM who puts much emphasis on combat environment and tries to create challenging encounters in such a way, or even if you have a very ranged-heavy group, then simple things such as expanded darkvision range (or simply having darkvision in the first place) could be extremelly useful. Not sure if this falls under the scope of your guide though, or of any guide, but thought I should mention it and let you make up your own mind about it.

I think foresight deserves a mention too, as valor bards can get it via magical secrets at the high levels.

I am sure I had seen a thread about warlock archers. Mind you, not EB spammers, actual warlock archers that take the pact of the blade and use it with a bow. The thread title was something like ''warlock is thenew dpr king'' or something like that (in case you wantto search for it), but my search results make it difficult for me to find it.

ps: When you have time, and if you are in the mood, it would be nice to present us with some sample builds. Not all fleshed out, just include the relevant choices (race, class(es), feats, spells) and mention the combat strategy of each such build. Perhaps even have each sample build be of a different character level too, to get a better idea of the potential at different levels too.

Naanomi

2017-06-01, 08:02 PM

I considered adding that, but you're comparing 1 minute of +1d4 once a day to constant advantage given by a familiar.
Advantage on one attack... if you are throwing out a lot at a time (or have another reliable source of advantage) it can still make a relatively powerful difference

TheBirba

2017-06-01, 10:16 PM

djreynolds

2017-06-02, 03:06 AM

What a very good guide. This guide is to the point

JellyPooga

2017-06-02, 03:44 AM

Well items to carry those things? i mean... players will get those things regardless (like Bag of Holding), if its counted, then the Bag of Holding will have many arrows along with all the treasure and trash PCs like to keep, if not, then it won't be mentioned for that but the PC will still want a Bag of Holding (or something like that).

Keeping arrows (or any pointy objects) in a Bag of Holding has always struck me as a particularly daft idea, given that in every edition of D&D I've ever played (which is about 5 of them, give or take) there's been that little warning in the description of the BoH about what happens if it's "pierced".

Sure, you could "safety wrap" any sharp bits, but then they're not on hand for use and have you ever tried actually carrying arrows? Once you're up to about 20 or so, that's about your limit, not because their heavy, that's not a problem, but because they're awkward, long, they catch on things, rattle around and generally get in the way. I've never tried fighting while wearing a quiver, but I imagine it's a lot harder than marching (which I have done).

Note: I don't think that's a problem that is actually interesting for the players to solve.

Opinions differ, of course. I love resource management and strategy; it adds depth and complexity to planning your assault on a dungeon or trip into the unknown. One of the worst things that 5ed did, IMO, is trivialise accessibility to infinite light, food and water.

DeAnno

2017-06-02, 05:44 AM

Some thoughts I had reading this over:

1) It's really a shame you don't cover UA, as Physical Archer benefits from UA more than most concepts both in quality and breadth of options. Multiple Fighter subclasses (Scout, Monster Hunter, Arcane Archer, Sharpshooter), the Ranger Revision, Close Quarters Shooter Fighting Style, various Warlock and Mystic options, the list goes on and on. I run a Monster Hunter multiclassed with Deep Stalker Ranger 3 myself and it's incredibly effective.

If you were interested I might put together some of my own thoughts on the various things in UA an Archer might want, as I've gone through most of it at some point and it would all just be review.

2) The DMG Eladrin Elf subrace (p 286) deserves mention here. A Dex boost along with a short rest recovery teleport and all the other things one gets from elves. I put it on the 2nd tier just below Variant Human, along with the flying races and other strong things.

3) Very surprised at no mention of Alert in the feat section. Archery often involves both alpha striking and kiting tactics, not to mention the Rogue's go-first leanings and similar features sprinkled around. I put it on the same tier as Lucky personally, but it is at least as good as Skulker.

4) Precision Attack on Battlemaster (or similar) does indeed have a massive effect on DPR, due to the effect of letting you always -5/+10 and correct only your medium rolls (while letting high rolls hit and letting low rolls miss.) The efficiency of transmuting superiority dice into damage there is extremely high and for this reason I think if you're taking Fighter 1 on an Archer you had best be going at least to Fighter 3 to get some form of Precision Attack.

I have a spreadsheet with some half completed analysis of Precision Attack + SS and its effects if you're particularly interested in the math.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j4vgvQIcsNSZbwecvNFxI52Mh6fv4JT-IRVnSR9nxxE/edit#gid=0

My notation leaves a little to be desired, but the long and short is that if you Precision Attack whenever missing by 4 or less, each arrow you shoot will deal and extra 16% expected damage above it's full damage value. For example if your average hit damage is 16.5 this will increase your DPA by 0.16*16.5=2.64, which in an Action Surge round could be as much as 13 more expected damage at Fighter level 5! Even more astounding, this extra damage is totally independent of the AC you are shooting at (so long as it isn't off the d20), which means you recover quite a lot of DPR against those high AC targets SS Archers despise.

The extra tabs are more complex and dealt with the idea of how the math works when you are uncertain of the target AC and need to do some guesswork.

5) I feel Hunter's Mark is often kind of weak in play with CEx. You just end up starved of bonus actions and usually don't get much more damage than you would just CExing each shot, at the price of spell slots that could be used for things like Absorb Elements, and it can get de-concentrated as well if you're unlucky. It's ok against boss monsters or in Action Surge novas but outside those circumstances I don't think it's worth casting.

6) Magic ranged weapons (and even worse, magic hand crossbows) are very hard to find in this edition if your magic items are random or from pregens or something like that. I actually feel that this is currently the greatest secret weakness of archers, especially since the Magic Weapon spell is so garbage this edition. Various weird UA things that give you the ability to shoot magic arrows for the price of a class level or two are probably better than they seem because of this (I'm not aware offhand of any effects like that in non-UA).

krunchyfrogg

2017-06-02, 10:10 AM

I love how Rangers are just rated "Ok" in the playstyle that should be their speciality.

Rangers suck. It's a well documented 5e fact.

Sigreid

2017-06-02, 10:24 AM

Rangers suck. It's a well documented 5e fact.
I don't think they suck but their wheel house isn't ranged combat, it's navigating the dangerous wilds.

Maxilian

2017-06-02, 11:49 AM

Opinions differ, of course. I love resource management and strategy; it adds depth and complexity to planning your assault on a dungeon or trip into the unknown. One of the worst things that 5ed did, IMO, is trivialise accessibility to infinite light, food and water.

I do agree with light, food and water but mostly because when someone does not have arrows is basically "Welp i'm out of arrows, lets kill someone who happens to have some, or lets wait till we get somewhere to buy more" (and making whoever uses arrows, a little less useful), but food and water is mostly "****!, we need food and water, NOW!" *that's a problem that the PC needs to solve and that makes an interesting "mini quest"*.

Light is also something different, the lack of it is what makes an encounter from medium to hard xD

JellyPooga

2017-06-02, 01:05 PM

I do agree with light, food and water but mostly because when someone does not have arrows is basically "Welp i'm out of arrows, lets kill someone who happens to have some, or lets wait till we get somewhere to buy more" (and making whoever uses arrows, a little less useful)

Again, I think it adds a level of strategy to playing an archer; making your choice of backup weapon and when to "bring out the big guns" and use your arrows an important choice instead of a trivial decision. That might just be me though. :smallbiggrin:

ayyressh

2017-06-02, 01:16 PM

This guide is using the revised ranger, yes? Also, I'm curious how Arcane Archer matches up with the other archetypes now that it's been revised.

rooneg

2017-06-02, 01:19 PM

Again, I think it adds a level of strategy to playing an archer; making your choice of backup weapon and when to "bring out the big guns" and use your arrows an important choice instead of a trivial decision. That might just be me though. :smallbiggrin:

I don't disagree that the resource optimization game can be interesting, I just think it's sad that a CHA based class with a two level dip in Warlock can become basically as good an "archer" and completely avoid that issue. Martial characters already have plenty of ways they aren't as cool as the casters, having to worry about running out of ammo ends up being just another reason not to play them.

Specter

2017-06-02, 01:25 PM

Rangers suck. It's a well documented 5e fact.

I don't think they suck but their wheel house isn't ranged combat, it's navigating the dangerous wilds.

Rangers only 'suck' if the only thing you consider is raw damage. Every comparison of Rangers with Fighters and Paladins fails to consider that a Ranger has 100% more exploration uses than those two.

(Oh wait, they don't even suck at that department, they're just not the best.)

JellyPooga

2017-06-02, 03:17 PM

I don't disagree that the resource optimization game can be interesting, I just think it's sad that a CHA based class with a two level dip in Warlock can become basically as good an "archer" and completely avoid that issue. Martial characters already have plenty of ways they aren't as cool as the casters, having to worry about running out of ammo ends up being just another reason not to play them.

It depends on what you find enjoyable I suppose; for me, spamming EB as a Warlock is dull, but managing the resources of an archer is much more fun, even though in a given fight the mehanical result is the same (well...similar). It's not necessarily "un-fun" to run out of ammo, any more than it is to get lost in the wilderness or any other setback. If anything, running out of ammo and being forced to adopt a different tactic can be more fun than just rolling another attack the same as last turn.

mephnick

2017-06-02, 03:26 PM

Rangers only 'suck' if the only thing you consider is raw damage. Every comparison of Rangers with Fighters and Paladins fails to consider that a Ranger has 100% more exploration uses than those two.

(Oh wait, they don't even suck at that department, they're just not the best.)

It's a shame that enough people play D&D wrong that the Ranger has gotten such a bad name.

No blue, because I'm serious about the "wrong" part.

Citan

2017-06-02, 06:09 PM

Rangers only 'suck' if the only thing you consider is raw damage. Every comparison of Rangers with Fighters and Paladins fails to consider that a Ranger has 100% more exploration uses than those two.

(Oh wait, they don't even suck at that department, they're just not the best.)

So true, comparing apples and oranges usually end in a bad way. XD

DeAnno

2017-06-04, 03:41 AM

So I decided to do a full review of UA and its impact on Archery. The OP can use any of this at his option in the main post but I feel like this isn't really covered very often and could use a roundup in any case. With each option will be a link to the official Wizards pdf containing it. I'm going to use the OP's same rating system with my opinions on all of this as well. Revised with solid blue in the usual place between black and light blue.

I also mentioned some random non-UA things that weren't discussed in the OP for whatever reason, like Eladrin and Alert. I only looked at the most recent versions of things that were obviously iterations of other things (so no coverage of the infamous 5 level Ambuscade Ranger (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DX_0907_UA_RangerOptions.pdf) for example) If I missed anything relevant buried in some random UA somewhere feel free to let me know.

(Hours Later: This turned into kind of a massive project. But I still think it needed doing.)

(More Hours Later: I don't know huge amounts about how Rogues and Bards are supposed to work, so I didn't cover their relevant subclasses yet. I might look into it more later, feel free to make suggestions)

(Even More Hours Later: Finally done for now.)

Fighting Styles
I'm going to cover these on their own since you can get Fighting Styles from a lot of classes, and often a build will get multiple Fighting Styles without even really trying to. Archery of course is the gold standard but there are some intriuging extra options for a second style.

Close Quarters Shooter (Link) (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf): This provides +1 to hit along with other goodies and is the default option for your second style if your DM allows it to stack with Archery. Also of note is that it contains within itself the melee-friendlyness of the CEx feat and some of the cover-friendliness of Sharpshooter, so if your Archer for whatever reason doesn't have either of those it might be worth a look as your primary style. While it doesn't have any bearing here I should mention this ability is also of interest to Eldritch Blasters since it doesn't specify "weapon" attacks.
Mariner (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf): This is an interesting alternative to Defense as a second style, in that it gives you a climb and swim speed. Unfortunately By RAW in 5e this doesn't save you from making checks, it just saves you from going at half speed, so it's not super great. If you like to climb into sniper positions and have the right sort of DM though it's definitely worth inspection.

Feats
There are a lot of Dex bump skill feats that I didn't cover here because I don't think they're particularly good for what Archers do or even in general. IMO Stealthy is the only worthwhile one in the bunch and that only by inches.

Alert: This isn't UA, but I think it's important enough to Archery that it needs specific mention. Going first as an Archer is incredibly important for all kinds of reasons. Some archers are nova specialists and need to go before other creatures. Some archers are frail and can't let themselves be bumrushed. Some archers double as scouts in a dungeon and need to go first to backup. Alert also just has an incredibly strong statistical effect; all other things being equal in a 1v1, Alert's +5 changes your chance of going first from 50% to 71.9%.
Martial Adept: This core feat is of special interest to non-Battlemaster Superiority die users, of which I will soon mention many. At the end of the day though, I think that it just isn't efficient enough to compete with a lot of better things. It only gives you one bonus die, and its rare that you get tons of use out of fighter maneuvers since you need lots of Precision Attack for Sharpshooter spamming.
Elven Accuracy (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/RJSJC2017_04UASkillFeats_24v10.pdf): A huge boost to elves, this Dexterity half-feat essentially makes your advantage 3 dice. Obviously more of a draw for Rogue-types that get advantage all the time, but even if you have a less consistent source of it it's very worth considering.
Stealthy (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-SkillFeats.pdf): A dexterity half-feat, this increases your Stealth bonus and gives you a bit more freedom in positioning yourself and shooting around obstacles. I don't find it that exciting but it's a fairly efficient package.

Races
I personally think Variant Humans are Gold for low level play in particular (first 6-10 levels maybe?), but they lose a bit of their luster as time goes on and your next best ASI/Feat decays in value.

Eladrin (DMG 286): This oft-overlooked Elf subrace in the DMG is quite good for an archer. It gets the Elven +2 Dex and senses bonuses, as well as access to Elven Accuracy, and staples it to a short rest recharge Misty Step. Stealth experts will prefer Woof Elf instead, but Eladrin is very appealing outside of that niche.
Changeling (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Eberron_v1.1.pdf): Some people like these guys a lot for their deceptive face-type abilities, and they do get a +1 Dex bump. Might be worth looking into if you want to dip Warlock, sketchy even then.
Shifter (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Eberron_v1.1.pdf): Gets a +1 Dex bump and Darkvision, but none of the shifter types appeal that much and they are all greedy for bonus actions. If you want a Climb speed that badly get it from Mariner.

Classes & Archetypes
This is what UA focuses on in general so it's the big kahuna. I'm going to start with the broad and obvious and work my way down to the tiny and niche.

Revised Ranger (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf)
This deserves pride of place not only because it's a full class that is very good at Archery, but because the nature of the article and the contraversy around the original Ranger class means many DMs who don't ordinarily allow UA will allow this. In any case the Revised Ranger is an alpha-striking powerhouse with surprising utility.

The main feature you want to focus on is Natural Explorer at level 1, which gives you advantage on Initiative checks, advantage on attacks against enemies who haven't acted yet, and the ability to ignore difficult terrain entirely. This obviously lends itself to a very violent first round, and forms a brutal synergy with Action Surge in a Fighter Multiclass. It of course is a great Sharpshooter enabler too, as well as a Sneak-Attack helper and an Elven Accuracy Abuser.

While such a powerful ability at level 1 might suggest this is just a dip class, that isn't really the case. You get a Fighting Style at level 2, Favored Enemy is often widely applicable with Humanoids, they get normal Ranger spells, the Conclave features are strong, and so on and so on. Revised Ranger in fact doesn't die off any worse than most of the other Archery classes and is a fine choice to be your main or even only class.

All the Conclaves are good really, and they all serve their own specific purposes. Beast is great for providing a nice blocker that scales with your level. This conclave doesn't give traditional Extra Attack, but if you want it you can multiclass Fighter 5 without crippling your Beast that badly. Hunter is the same as it always was, and since it was the one functional part of the Old Ranger that's fine. The main reason I only rate Hunter Black is that Deep Stalker is similar purpose but better. It leans super-hard into the alpha-strike skid with an Extra Attack (+1) that only works in the first round, 90 foot Darkvision to help poor blind humans, miss-negation features, defense boosting, bonus spells, and even immunity to other's people's darkvision.

Horizon Walker Ranger (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf)
This is a subclass that works with new or old ranger. It's rather slow developing, though the level 3 is nice if you are having a hard time finding a magic bow. The main thing is an Extra Attack (3) variant at level 11 that requires you target multiple creatures but gives you teleports. Also notable are quite good spells, good defensive features, and a hunger for bonus actions that makes CEx inadvisable. I think this class is particularly well suited to single classing if your DM doesn't want you to multiclass with UA and you don't want to do a Beast Ranger.

Primeval Guardian Ranger (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2017_01_UA_RangerRogue_0117JCMM.pdf)
This is a more strange and interesting subclass from the same article. It turns you from a speedy sniper into a bulky tower, rooted in place but much more defensively oriented. This is actually far more suited to archers than melee, as you can stand in place and not really care about 5 foot speed if you have a good firing position.

It gives a bit of actionless bonus damage at level 3, but the main interest is that the form gives fountains of hp to you and eventually your allies. Especially worth noting is that the level 7 feature means you can continuously enter and exit your form to heal yourself, though this is rather limited in combat by devouring all your bonus actions forever and awkwardly leaving you de-formed half the time and such. The aura of difficult terrain around you is great for an archer too. Like its sister subclass it is a bit slow developing, so it should be your main or only class.

Monster Slayer Ranger (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAThreeSubclasses.pdf)

Yet another Ranger subclass, like the previous two it is slow developing and hungry for your bonus action. This one lets you mark a creature to learn about its statblock and deal bonus damage, and eventually bolster your defenses against it and foil its attempts to mess with you. While the abilities are very strong in a 1v1 (often wasting enemy actions), I feel the main problem is intelligent monsters can counterplay it well by focusing on other party members when you mark them, and/or having their allies focus on you. These problems are compounded by needing it to be your turn to switch enemies or remark if yours dies. I think this subclass definitely has its place and it isn't terrible or anything, but like the Hunter it fails to shine quite as brightly as some others.

This is a much better class in a solo campaign where you rarely expect to have allies and get into a lot of 1v1s or even 1v2s. It also benefits from having lots of weird elemental magic weapons to select from while fighting weird homebrew monsters. All in all, very DM and campaign dependent.

Spell-less Ranger (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA3_ClassDesignVariants.pdf)
This is almost a proto-UA considering the weird format, but it's often referenced so worth bringing up. The main reason this is good is that you get Precision Attack, which enables Sharpshooter. It also goes very well with CEx because superiority die don't eat bonus actions the way spells do. You also get weird healing and summoning features that are pretty nice. The lack of spells does hurt in the lategame though, so be a bit wary of this if you plan to run a really deep single class Ranger.

While this is interesting on a single-class Ranger, it is quite the weird idea as a dip in combination with a Fighter that already gets superiority dice. Whether the die stack, or should stack, is really anyone's guess, though if they do you will find yourself with a lot of superiority dice, which in turn enables quite a lot of Sharpshooter. This feature swap is probably Gold on a Fighter main/Ranger dip in such a situation if your DM allows you to stack dice in this manner.

Scout Fighter (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf)
The first Battlemaster variant, this one is notable for giving you 3 bonus skill proficiencies! You don't have much to do with your dice, but what you have is pretty good: Precision Attack, a good AC booster Shield-spell-like power, and a weak but general skill booster. This subclass is quite good for a Fighter that wants to pretend it's a Ranger. The Scout does trail off a bit late however, since it follows the Battlemaster feature progression but gets no bonus maneuvers.

Of special note is the uncertainty surrounding this class' Natural Explorer feature. The original Ranger version of the feature is not strong in combat, but the Revised Ranger feature of the same name is a huge alpha strike enabler and synergizes very well with Action Surge. Mearls apparently thinks it's the Revised Ranger version now. (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/779180922797076480?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2016%2F10 %2F08%2Franger-revised-faq-insights%2F) So if you trust twitter as a rules source, Scout is probably Gold, and extra-great dip 3-fodder.

Monster Hunter Fighter (Link) (http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/upload/articles/UA%20Gothic%20Characters.pdf)
Very similar to the Scout, the Monster Hunter gets one less skill but rather better "maneuvers". Instead of a Shield clone, MH's defensive manuever augments your mental saves, and it should go without saying that augmenting your Wisdom save when it looks like you just failed by a small amount is an unbelievable use of a superiority die. MH also offers a more specific but stronger skill booster, and a narrow-but-awesome damage boost specialized at breaking spell concentration. Ritual Detect Magic comes with this guy as well, which is nice if your party doesn't have it or if you've essentially become the party Rogue. Like the Scout, lack of bonus manuevers learned means this class trails off a bit later on, though the level 7 feature has narrow-but-strong uses involving critical hits on certain creature types.

Sharpshooter Fighter (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2016_Fighter_UA_1205_1.pdf)
The Sharpshooter Fighter is a tragedy of circumstance. What on the surface looks like a perfectly reasonable set of features is actually incredibly anti-synergistic with all the other good things Archers tend to use, so while considered in isolation it seems good, it's actually kind of bad. Steady Aim is a "better" version of Hunter's Mark with scaling damage, a short duration, and a 3/short rest use limit. While this is nifty, it gets in the way of CEx, or whatever else your bonus action could be doing, diluting its value. Also, unlike Hunter's Mark, it can't carryover to new targets, which make it even more awkward against mobs of creatures.

Steady Aim also counterfeits the SS feat's cover ignoring. A feature you get later replaces CEx's melee friendliness. Rapid Strike somehow presumes you have bonus actions to spend on giving up Advantage into Extra Attacks at level 15. Snap Shot is actually great (1st Turn Extra Attack +1), but comes too late. Ironically, the Sharpshooter class is terrible at using the Sharpshooter feat, and also bad at using CEx, and also can't use Hunter's Mark well, and well, it just isn't good enough.

It should be noted this is better at low levels of play, before you could normally get the Sharpshooter and CEx feats going, though it still suffers from a lot of issues and the scaling damage is pretty low at that point.

Samurai Fighter (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/2016_Fighter_UA_1205_1.pdf)

Ironically, from the same UA, the Samurai is a much better archer than the Sharpshooter, sort of a lazy man's Battlemaster clone. The 3/short rest bonus action gives Advantage to attacks (great for Elven Accuracy!) for two whole rounds, on whoever you want, and it even gives wonderful tanking besides! The only sad thing about this is unlike actual Precision Attack which stacks with Advantage from other sources, this Advantage obviously can't stack with other Advantage. The class remains fairly strong as it goes with a free Skill, Wisdom saves, and a cool interrupt, though Rapid Strike is similar garbage to its cousin.

Samurai is actually an ideal Archer to give to a new player who doesn't have the presence of mind to use superiority dice or spells well, and might position himself poorly a lot. Fighting Spirit takes forever to run out so doesn't have to be managed well, and the nice tanking makes everything much more calm. Just give him Samurai and the Sharpshooter feat and things can't go too far wrong. CEx is a bit goofy but probably still worth it as a second feat just to tank more easily too, though you could multiclass or use your bonus action in some other way.

As a last side note, this is a really good combo with Revised Spell-less Ranger (for one bonus action on your second round, advantage for the first 3 rounds of combat WITH Precision Attack!).

Arcane Archer Fighter (Revised) (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-RevisedSubclasses.pdf)
This fighter subclass can be underwhelming at times but it does serve some specific purposes. First of all in some campaigns for whatever reason the entire multiverse seems to have been emptied of magic ranged weapons. When this is the case obviously having magical weapon damage automatically can be quite attractive, regardless of the other possible failings of the class. Even independent of that, it's +1 to hit and damage that stacks with magic bows (because who would ordinarily use that many magic arrows?.)

Beyond that however things are a little mixed. You only have two uses of your main class feature per short rest, which can be a little constraining, though the effects are generally good. The class doesn't eat your bonus actions much at all, but it also doesn't let you use Hand Crossbows, which basically encourages a multiclass to find a way to spend your bonus actions. Some of the conditions you can inflict are actually quite powerful, but this is blunted by them allowing a save (essentially meaning the creature can beat your effect either with AC -or- a save, getting two chances), and an Int-based save at that. Also, most of those great conditions you labored so hard for only last for a turn.

Overall, a fast developing dip, as many UA Fighter archetypes tend to be. Better if you have a good source of bonus actions to use from elsewhere or a high Int score.

Mystic (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf)
This guy operates as an Archer with the Nomadic Arrow discipline in a sort of unique way, divorced from the usual mode of Sharpshooter spamming that Archery tends to slide into, and instead sort of like a cross between a Rogue and a Bard.

Your smites max out at 7d10, and while you have a lot of total smite-juice if you choose to use it all that way, the mechanic of using them is more awkward and involves your bonus action, limiting them to 1/turn and resulting in significant wastage. You do get some other tricks to compensate like turning misses into hits and making extra attacks and bonus damage as a class feature, though some of these things cost PP and actions themselves. Somewhat lessening these problems is a bonus damage feature that provides 1d8-2d8 free actionless damage per round, similar to that of a Cleric.

Most notably the Mystic has no way to natively get an honest Extra Attack feature (at least not one that you don't have to pay daily resources through the nose for), which is both troublesome in its own right and causes additional wastage from the Smites. It could work with a multiclass, but limiting your PP by 5 levels is going to cripple your smiting pool pretty badly too.

In spite of all these problems Mystic is natively a very powerful class, with a lot of strong buffs and utility options available for use. Archery is more of a good option for Mystics to minor in if they wish to have some low burst damage potential at extreme range (mid-range and melee likely does better with Animate Weapon, provided favorable DM rulings.)

Rune Scribe (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf)
This requires Int 13, Arcana proficiency and doesn't really have Archery features, but if you take 2 levels in it you can scribe a "Vind" rune on your bow to double its maximum range (and also maybe give it bonuses to attack rolls if you have big spell slots.) While this isn't the most efficient use of two levels normally, people who for some reason need to win duels at extreme ranges (against fliers in open terrain, perhaps) might either take this or entice some party member into doing it.

Forge Domain Cleric (Link) (http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Cleric.pdf)
Sometimes, you really really want a magic Hand Crossbow. You want one so bad you would fight a god to get one, but the gods themselves don't have any either. One group of gods however, has the solution to your troubles, if you will only spend a single level paying homage to them with the Forge Cleric. You can get Bless and Heavy Armor proficiency while you're there.

It goes almost without saying that it's better if you can somehow arrange that a different party member is the one who actually takes this level.

TheBirba

2017-06-14, 09:19 PM

Small update today.

Sage Tellah

2017-06-18, 07:18 AM

I feel like nobody ever mentions that nets exist. They can actually end up doing a decent amount of work with an archer build, since they'll have a high attack roll and be able to negate the disadvantage anyone else tends to have using them with feats they're already taking. It's not a primary weapon of course, but it's a really nice tool to have on hand. Restrain is a really nice condition, and you usually have to blow spell slots to have a lesser chance at this, or dedicate stats and movement while putting yourself in the line of danger to grapple them, which doesn't even give allies advantage or force them to have disadvantage. Beyond the obvious use in capture, it can shut down dangerous enemies since even though it's generally guaranteed they'll make the DC10 strength check or do enough damage if they can slash at it, it still takes their action to do so. It can also be used similarly to abuse an action economy in your favor, like when you're cleaning up a mostly beat encounter.

The loading-like quality usually means you can't net multiple dudes or net a dude then shoot them. Haste actually works wonderfully, since it's an entirely separate action you can use to net someone before executing the rest of your turn with advantage, and crossbow expert lets you make a bonus action shot after throwing a net with your action. And all of this costs nearly nothing! 1 gp per net, and it's not even guaranteed it'll be destroyed after use. It's probably one of few reasons a Ranger would take Giant Killer, which will allow them to throw a net as a reaction when a Large creature attacks them. It's the extra options sort of thing martials need.

EdenIndustries

2017-06-18, 01:52 PM

[size=4][b]Arcane Archer Fighter (Revised)
...
You only have two uses of your main class feature per short rest, and you need to declare use when you attack, not when you hit, which further dilutes it
Great writeup! I did want to clarify this point though. This was true in the original Arcane Archer writeup, but was changed in the latest revision. Quote:

"Once per turn when you fire a magic arrow
from a shortbow or longbow as part of the
Attack action, you can apply one of your Arcane
Shot options to that arrow. You decide to use the
option when the arrow hits, unless the option
doesn’t involve an attack roll."

(Emphasis mine)

And that makes this part...

Some of the conditions you can inflict are actually quite powerful, but this is blunted by them allowing a save (essentially meaning the creature can beat your effect either with AC -or- a save, getting two chances)

...not really accurate. Once the arrow hits and you decide to use the ability, you've already beaten the AC. Meaning there's just the one save against the actual use of the Arcane Shot portion of the attack.

DeAnno

2017-06-18, 03:12 PM

Great writeup! I did want to clarify this point though. This was true in the original Arcane Archer writeup, but was changed in the latest revision.

Huh, that is really bad flavor text before, that mentions "when you fire". I guess that's 5e for you.

Definitely a big help not to waste shots like that, I'm still not sure I like the archetype much outside cases where you really want a magic weapon though.

I also should revisit Warlocks (since they changed a couple days after I wrote this and aren't viable anymore) and Mystics (since I've since built a Mystic and was a bit surprised in doing so that they had no way to get an honest Extra Attack. I mean, BARDS can do that.) I think in going through it again I would add solid blue too, there's just too much middle ground between Black and Bright Blue.

EDIT: Some revisions were made. I definitely admit Arcane Archer is better than I thought, but I still think it's inferior to Precision Attack users/Samurai in general. I built a Mystic recently so know the class a lot better, and downgraded them for Archery. The Moon Bow is currently in development hell so I removed Warlocks entirely. I adjusted a couple things to use solid blue.

EdenIndustries

2017-06-18, 03:17 PM

Huh, that is really bad flavor text before, that mentions "when you fire". I guess that's 5e for you.

Definitely a big help not to waste shots like that, I'm still not sure I like the archetype much outside cases where you really want a magic weapon though.

I also should revisit Warlocks (since they changed a couple days after I wrote this and aren't viable anymore) and Mystics (since I've since built a Mystic and was a bit surprised in doing so that they had no way to get an honest Extra Attack. I mean, BARDS can do that.) I think in going through it again I would add solid blue too, there's just too much middle ground between Black and Bright Blue.

Well actually one more bit of clarification, the archetype doesn't give you a magic weapon, it gives you unlimited magic ammunition. Quote:

"Whenever you fire a nonmagical arrow from a
shortbow or longbow, you can make it a magic
arrow, with a +1 bonus to the attack and damage
rolls. "

So this to me is actually a pretty big deal. Given that the magic ammunition is one-time use in the DMG, having an inexhaustible supply is pretty great. Especially since, by RAW, this would stack with a magic weapon. So you could pick up a +x Longbow for example, and get an extra +1 to the attack and damage rolls from this magic ammunition.

Personally, that fact combined with the clarification I mentioned regarding Arcane Shots on hit, not on attack, would make me inclined to bump it one rating above black. But that's just my opinion!

jaappleton

2017-06-18, 03:38 PM

Absolutely EXCELLENT write up of the UA stuff. Truly excellent, and I sincerely thank you for it! I'd been struggling to compare all the UA options, and before you mentioned it, I'd written off the Horizon Walker. But the idea of an Eladrin HW Archer is very intriguing, teleporting around everywhere and shooting people.

At my table, if I teleport behind someone, I get Advantage on my Attack since they're unprepared for it.

Unsure if it's the most optimized thing ever, but Horizon Walker / Trickery Cleric could be fun from the perspective of "WHICH ONE OF YOU SHOT ME?!"

Squiddish

2017-06-18, 05:50 PM

Beyond that however things are bleak. You only have two uses of your main class feature per short rest, and you need to declare use when you attack, not when you hit, which further dilutes it (though the level 7 feature helps with that a bit.)

That is incorrect, you only decide to use it when you attack if it replaces the attack role. It's right in the PDF.

You decide to use the option when the arrow hits, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack roll.

TheBirba

2017-06-20, 12:40 AM

Sage Tellah

2017-06-20, 05:42 AM

The problem with nets is their range (5/15) means you're always attacking at disadvantage.

That's why they're good for this specific build, though. It's a ranged attack, so both Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter alleviate that in their own ways, and you're likely already planning to take those feats.

Maxilian

2017-06-20, 10:32 AM

TheBirba

2017-06-22, 12:53 AM

That's why they're good for this specific build, though. It's a ranged attack, so both Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter alleviate that in their own ways, and you're likely already planning to take those feats.

That's actually a good point.

Sicarius Victis

2017-06-22, 12:51 PM

While Martial Adept may not seem that good, I'd like to point out that since you can use your own Superiority Dice to use the maneuvers, it's great with the Monster Hunter or Scout, who already have Superiority Dice but normally can't get more manuevers from the Battlemaster list.

DeAnno

2017-06-23, 12:48 AM

That seems like it would be the case, but I think in practice it isn't, because you need those dice to fuel Precision Attack and fix your Sharpshooter accuracy. Assuming you attempt to fix any attack that misses by 5 or less, the chance each die turns a miss into a hit is [4/8+5/8+6/8+7/8+8/8]/5 = 3/4. That means each die is worth 3/4 of your hit damage, which is going to be roughly 1d6+3+10=16.5; 16.5*3/4=12.375

That's an extremely efficient trade, and as long as your attack roll is on the d20 you'll be making that trade in 25% of all your attacks, meaning that 5 superiority dice last 20 attacks. 20 attacks might seem like a lot, but your first turn as a crossbow fighter is 5 already, and even if you assume combat lasts just 3 rounds you'll make 11 total attacks over that time. If you have another combat before a short rest (a system expectation), then that's basically all your dice thrown into the fire.

It's not that Martial Adept is terrible (I'd love to have it for free), it's that I think it's distinctly worse than Dex ASIs, Sharpshooter, CEx if you use it, probably Alert, Elven Accuracy, Lucky, Resilient Wis, the list goes on and on. This is a feat starved edition.

Sicarius Victis

2017-06-23, 04:05 AM

Okay, no, that's just a waste of potential. As an archer, there are a lot of ways your SD could have useful effects, beyond just straight-up damage buffs. Increased AC to escape melee, giving an extra attack to your SA-ing Rogue who will easily outdamage what your attack would have done, frightening enemies to keep them away and give them disadvantage on attacks...

How are these not worth going for?

Maxilian

2017-06-23, 08:56 AM

The Runemaster does not require 2 lvls to get the Vind Rune, you only need 1, so its not purple (its better, not that it makes it really good over the others)

Grondsmash

2018-07-19, 03:55 PM

First things first, with Elven Accuracy, you now have to make 1/2 Elf blue, as a race.:smallwink::smallcool:

You have also missed an entire class, now that XGtE has made it an ideal class for at least a dip. The Blade Pact Warlock.
You take Improved Blade Pact, to get a magical +1 Attack & Damage, another +1 for SS, and bows (and just about everything else) now count as blade weapons. This has two effects, and Archer can benefit from the Blade Pact, but also bonuses and spells made for blades now work for bows. So by RAW, booming blade and green flame blade now work with a bow, leveling out the playing field for archers. Not to mention Superior Blade Pact (+2 att/dam), Ultimate Pact Weapon (+3 att/dam), Eldritch Smite (turning spells into good smites), Life Drinker (add Cha bonus to dam.) & Thirsting Blade (Extra Attack) for improving their fighting. Then there is all the other invocations and spells which augment the kind of character you are, and spells, for either smiting or casting, renew on a short rest.

I have a Battemaster/Hexblade that is one of the most effective, versatile and fun players I have had, and finally an archer that makes a impact and holds his weight in a fight! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Warlush

2019-03-01, 11:11 AM

Also since the release of XGTE, warlocks can make great archers as well. The impoved pact weapon invocation gives you the option of a +1 ranged weapon, thirsting blade gives 2 attacks, life drinker still adds necrotic damage, it's automatically magice damage (unlike swift quiver), and you can still use CBE and SS feats. The Hexblade patron aslo gives you the ability to use CHA for attack/damage, and medium armor.

Waazraath

2019-03-07, 02:36 PM

I also miss the paladin. It has the most important class features: extra attack. It has some great spells for archery, most of all elemental weapon. A build like paladin 9 / fighter 1 / *any full caster* works great, together with crossbow expert and sharp shooter, and archery fighting style. It has (highest levels) 3 attacks of 1d6 + 5 (dex) + 10 (ss) +3d4 (elemental weapon), where the -5 of ss is totally negated by elemental weapon (+3) and archery fighting style (+2). Even better: since Xanathar's, there's a whisper bard, that adds max 5d6 extra damage once / turn. That's almost 100 damage / turn, assuming elemental weapon precast, average damage, and all 3 attacks that hit.

It might seem a waste, not being able to smite, but bugger it: smiting comes at a cost, that is, spell slots. These spell slots can be used for spells to enhance archery (from 1st level Divine Favor onward), or can be used for healing and utility. Find steed is very nice for an archer as well. Bard adds a ton of utility and skills to the mix.

Summarized, it can make a great character, that does good damage, has a durable chasis (hp, saves), can buff the party (even passively with the pally aura's it's a great addition), can heal, and is very decent outside of combat (with skills & spells).