Pathfinder Spellslinger

[MatchesMalone]

So my 5e game may revert to a Pathfinder rule set eventually. One of my players currently plays an Artificer Gunslinger. He's brought up the Wizard Spellslinger class but I can't locate what book it's in. Any help would be awesome!

[CharonsHelper]

It's right here in the SRD - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizard-archetypes/spellslinger/

It's not actually its own class - it's a wizard archetype.

Frankly - it's vibe is okay - but it's pretty weak-sauce. It has to give up FOUR schools of magic.

And using a weapon with low BAB is a losing proposition.

I wouldn't really recommend it.

For that vibe - I'd recommend him go with the Magus archetype - the Myrmidarch. It isn't for guns specifically - just ranged attacks - but nothing prevents the use of guns. Maybe with a gunslinger dip for proficiencies and to keep it from jamming on him.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/myrmidarch

[MatchesMalone]

Yeah. Archetype is what I meant. Not sure how I missed that. lol Thanks! I'll pass it on!

[Psyren]

Frankly - it's vibe is okay - but it's pretty weak-sauce. It has to give up FOUR schools of magic.


You can use Opposition Research (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/opposition-research/) to mitigate the penalty, and it's not that harsh in PF anyway (i.e. you can still cast the spells if you need to, it's just going to cost you an extra slot, plus you can still use wands and scrolls.)

[CharonsHelper]

You can use Opposition Research (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/opposition-research/) to mitigate the penalty, and it's not that harsh in PF anyway (i.e. you can still cast the spells if you need to, it's just going to cost you an extra slot, plus you can still use wands and scrolls.)

It only partially mitigates the penalty.

And frankly - past early levels - it's just rare that the Spellslinger would be better off using a gun rather than just using a spell.

In addition - unlike Gunslinger -Spellslinger has no way to remove the broken condition caused by misfires. Without that, guns aren't really usable by PCs. (unless you're using advanced firearms - which you shouldn't because they sort of break the game's math)

[Florian]

Didn´t Serafina post an interesting build based on Wizard (Spellslinger)1/ Magus (Eldritch Archer)1+?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Yeah, the trick with Spellslinger is that it's one level long. You then immediately go into a different casting class (or Kineticist, I imagine) and shoot better spells out of your gun.

[Psyren]

It only partially mitigates the penalty.

It's still a weak penalty. I don't see anything that stops you taking that discovery more than once anyway.



And frankly - past early levels - it's just rare that the Spellslinger would be better off using a gun rather than just using a spell.

Well obviously it's weaker than a normal wizard, but so are 90% of the other classes and archetypes in this game.


In addition - unlike Gunslinger -Spellslinger has no way to remove the broken condition caused by misfires.

You're kidding, right? A cantrip removes that.

[CharonsHelper]

It's still a weak penalty. I don't see anything that stops you taking that discovery more than once anyway.

As it's a replacement for a feat - one could argue either way. But you definitely couldn't take it twice for the same school, as it doesn't reduce the increased spell level by 1, it specifically changes it from two to one level. So getting it again for the same school would do nothing.


Well obviously it's weaker than a normal wizard, but so are 90% of the other classes and archetypes in this game.

Except it doesn't really gain anything. Using guns are a terrible option for most PCs. You need to be able to stack static damage to get halfway decent damage out of them since there is no composite musket. A gunslinger gets their Dex mod to damage (really - there's little reason to continue with Gunslinger past level 5), the myrmidarch gets Weapon Training, access to Weapon Spec, and a ranged spellstrike, while all the spellslinger can do to make their gun not worthless is to sacrifice spells as a swift action to get a slight enchantment bonus. >.< That won't even negate their low BAB. (which also makes it so that they get their first iterative at 11)


You're kidding, right? A cantrip removes that.

If you mean Mending - that takes ten minutes to cast! Hardly a combat spell. Much of the time you won't even want to spend that long between battles.

And... (wait for it) Spellslingers lose the ability to cast cantrips! So they can't even use it in the first place.

A gunslinger can remove the condition as a move action for 1 Grit, or as a standard action for free.

[Psyren]

As it's a replacement for a feat - one could argue either way. But you definitely couldn't take it twice for the same school, as it doesn't reduce the increased spell level by 1, it specifically changes it from two to one level. So getting it again for the same school would do nothing.

The whole point is to take it for different schools each time - the ones you banned.



Except it doesn't really gain anything. Using guns are a terrible option for most PCs.

Presumably this archetype exists because people don't care and want to use guns anyway.



And... (wait for it) Spellslingers lose the ability to cast cantrips! So they can't even use it in the first place.

Wands exist, as does Make Whole. Barrier overcome.

(And Greater Make Whole, and Jury-Rig, and...)

[Florian]

The whole point is to take it for different schools each time - the ones you banned.



Presumably this archetype exists because people don't care and want to use guns anyway.



Wands exist, as does Make Whole. Barrier overcome.

(And Greater Make Whole, and Jury-Rig, and...)

Considering that this archetype favors a very combat-centric approach that´s more focused on the usual direct damage spells and blaster wizards don´t even needing that broad level of utility and school access, this will often be a mood point anyway.

Dipping a level in Swashbuckler (Musketeer) and later Arcane Archer might not be the worst decision.

[CharonsHelper]

The whole point is to take it for different schools each time - the ones you banned.

Okay - but taking up a spell level higher still makes it a major drawback. (not to mention burning feats)


Wands exist, as does Make Whole. Barrier overcome.

(And Greater Make Whole, and Jury-Rig, and...)

A wand of Mending won't help unless you have UMD. They don't just lose the level 0 spell slots - they lose cantrips from their spell list entirely. (though they get Detect Magic & Read Magic as level 1 spells)

And yes - you can burn your spellcasting to help fix your gun - though again, it takes combat actions to do so. Not to mention - being a Spellslinger means that you already have fewer spells per day because it can't stack with an arcane school (like evoker - which is much more useful for a blaster than Spellslinger).


Anyway - I'm not saying that someone who enjoys playing a Spellslinger is having badwrongfun. But from a mechanical perspective the archetype is TERRIBLE, and it doesn't really do the sorts of things that the OP wanted.

The only decent thing they get is the ability to raise their DCs with their magic gun (but only a few spell types), but that makes it so that it might blow up in their face. This makes it really bad for AOEs especially, because if any target rolls a 20 on their saving throw, the gun blows up in their face, dealing damage to them and becoming broken.

[Psyren]

A wand of Mending won't help unless you have UMD. They don't just lose the level 0 spell slots - they lose cantrips from their spell list entirely. (though they get Detect Magic & Read Magic as level 1 spells)

And yes - you can burn your spellcasting to help fix your gun - though again, it takes combat actions to do so. Not to mention - being a Spellslinger means that you already have fewer spells per day because it can't stack with an arcane school (like evoker - which is much more useful for a blaster than Spellslinger).

No - they lose the Cantrips class feature, which means they can't prepare those spells themselves, but they are still spells on the wizard list and thus can be wanded or scrolled just fine.



Anyway - I'm not saying that someone who enjoys playing a Spellslinger is having badwrongfun. But from a mechanical perspective the archetype is TERRIBLE, and it doesn't really do the sorts of things that the OP wanted.

The only decent thing they get is the ability to raise their DCs with their magic gun (but only a few spell types), but that makes it so that it might blow up in their face. This makes it really bad for AOEs especially, because if any target rolls a 20 on their saving throw, the gun blows up in their face, dealing damage to them and becoming broken.

Again, Jury-Rig can block any number of enemies rolling nat 20s AND you rolling nat 1s, for the entire combat. I'd say that's worth +5 untyped to all your save DCs that stacks with Spell Focus. And if a situation arises where you don't have access to that, just don't use area spells; +5 untyped to your DCs on a ray or RTA is nothing to sneeze at either.

[CharonsHelper]

No - they lose the Cantrips class feature, which means they can't prepare those spells themselves, but they are still spells on the wizard list and thus can be wanded or scrolled just fine.

The archetype is written poorly enough to allow either interpretation, but I'll give it to you. But at low levels having to buy a wand of mending is pricey, and it still doesn't help much mid combat.


Again, Jury-Rig can block any number of enemies rolling nat 20s AND you rolling nat 1s, for the entire combat.

1. Jury-Rig doesn't do that. All it does is let the object be treated as if it's not broken. It doesn't prevent the gun from becoming broken (it'll revert after the spell's rather short duration). If it suffered a misfire - it's still broken, you can just act like it isn't while Jury-Rig is up.

And again - are you really going to burn one of your combat rounds on Jury-Rig? Most combats only last a few rounds - are you going to burn 20-30% of combat preventing misfires? If you didn't before casting an AOE, the gun might even both break and blow up in the same turn.

And it's not even viable to do until mid-high levels. Ex: What level 4 caster is going to burn one of their mere 6-7 spells/day on Jury-Rig? (and it'd only last 4 rounds)

Plus - it's not even viable to put in a wand until very high levels because you'd have to get a higher caster level on it with its rd/level time - and that makes it expensive.


I'd say that's worth +5 untyped to all your save DCs that stacks with Spell Focus. And if a situation arises where you don't have access to that, just don't use area spells; +5 untyped to your DCs on a ray or RTA is nothing to sneeze at either

The bolded is wrong - and that could be why you think Spellslinger is viable.

Arcane Gun only works for "any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun". Those spell categories tend to kinda suck. You can't even use the best evocation AOEs through it.

And the +5 will only be at the highest levels, not to mention burning a good chunk of your wealth on a +5 gun.

The only way that the +5 would even be very useful is with metamagics, but you can't cast through the gun while using metamagic rods. (since the gun & rod both use a hand)

[Waker]

If for whatever reason you don't like either the Spellslinger or the Myrmidarch, you could try the Iron Kingdoms Gun Mage. You'd need to update the class to PF, but its a decent and straightforward class.

[Florian]

What would be a valid reason to not dip at least one level Swashbuckler or Gunslinger to get grit and quick clear? Swash (Musketeer) will also provide Rapid Reload as a bonus feat, which is gold on a feat-starved archer/crafter build.

[Psyren]

The archetype is written poorly enough to allow either interpretation, but I'll give it to you. But at low levels having to buy a wand of mending is pricey, and it still doesn't help much mid combat.

At low levels you don't have a magic gun to cast through anyway, so that is a moot point. By the time you'll want to use the gun, you'll have the wherewithal to repair it.



1. Jury-Rig doesn't do that. All it does is let the object be treated as if it's not broken. It doesn't prevent the gun from becoming broken (it'll revert after the spell's rather short duration). If it suffered a misfire - it's still broken, you can just act like it isn't while Jury-Rig is up.

I know what JR does. But since the gun ignores the broken condition, there's never a boom, problem solved. Then when the fight is over, you can use mending or make whole to fix it properly.

You were saying they have "no way" to repair their gun, and I disproved your assertion.



And again - are you really going to burn one of your combat rounds on Jury-Rig? Most combats only last a few rounds - are you going to burn 20-30% of combat preventing misfires? If you didn't before casting an AOE, the gun might even both break and blow up in the same turn.

Quicken exists, lesser rods exist. This is not difficult.



And it's not even viable to do until mid-high levels. Ex: What level 4 caster is going to burn one of their mere 6-7 spells/day on Jury-Rig? (and it'd only last 4 rounds)

How are you casting Fireball at level 4? Use Scorching Ray and forget about the gun, this is also not difficult.



The bolded is wrong - and that could be why you think Spellslinger is viable.

Arcane Gun only works for "any ranged touch attack, cone, line, or ray spells through his arcane gun". Those spell categories tend to kinda suck. You can't even use the best evocation AOEs through it.

By "all your spells" I obviously meant you'd be gravitating towards the ones that work with your class feature. That's kind of the point.



And the +5 will only be at the highest levels, not to mention burning a good chunk of your wealth on a +5 gun.

Greater Magic Weapon is pretty cheap actually and lasts all day.

[CharonsHelper]

At low levels you don't have a magic gun to cast through anyway, so that is a moot point. By the time you'll want to use the gun, you'll have the wherewithal to repair it.

If you aren't casting through the gun - the archetype is pretty pointless at low levels.


I know what JR does. But since the gun ignores the broken condition, there's never a boom, problem solved. Then when the fight is over, you can use mending or make whole to fix it properly.

You were saying they have "no way" to repair their gun, and I disproved your assertion.

No. No I didn't. I said that they had no way to cancel the misfires. Which they don't. The gun still breaks while Jury-Rig is in effect.


Quicken exists, lesser rods exist. This is not difficult.

Actually - it is. Besides the $35k cost involved (do you only play monte haul high level campaigns or something?) you literally can't cast Jury-Rig on your gun with a metamagic rod. The rod takes up a hand, the gun takes up a hand, and casting Jury-Rig takes a hand. Unless you're playing a werid race - you don't have 3 hands!




How are you casting Fireball at level 4? Use Scorching Ray and forget about the gun, this is also not difficult.

1. I didn't mention Fireball.

2. You can't use Fireball through the gun.

3. If you're ignoring the gun - the archetype is only a double-handful of penalties.


By "all your spells" I obviously meant you'd be gravitating towards the ones that work with your class feature. That's kind of the point.

Okay - it can eventually give a +5 DC to all of your terrible spells if you jump through a ton of hoops and you spend a standard action to burn a low level spell at the beginning of every combat to keep it from blowing up in your face. Yay?


Greater Magic Weapon is pretty cheap actually and lasts all day.

Okay - but then it gives you +5 ONLY at level 20, and it's not worth casting at all until level 12 (before then the spell slot isn't worth a +2). And you better make sure that it's not in an opposed school to make it worth casting by then.

[Psyren]

No. No I didn't. I said that they had no way to cancel the misfires. Which they don't. The gun still breaks while Jury-Rig is in effect.

But it can't explode, because the misfire can never treat it as already broken while the spell is active. Thus you are safe for the entire fight.


Actually - it is. Besides the $35k cost involved (do you only play monte haul high level campaigns or something?) you literally can't cast Jury-Rig on your gun with a metamagic rod. The rod takes up a hand, the gun takes up a hand, and casting Jury-Rig takes a hand. Unless you're playing a werid race - you don't have 3 hands!

Gun Twirling or Tiefling, which is a great race for this anyway. You can also make it Contingent with the trigger "if my weapon gains the broken condition."

And no, I use standard WBL. Every wizard should get a quicken rod, because action economy is a good thing.



If you aren't casting through the gun - the archetype is pretty pointless at low levels.
...
1. I didn't mention Fireball.

2. You can't use Fireball through the gun.

3. If you're ignoring the gun - the archetype is only a double-handful of penalties.

You're only ignoring the gun until it's magic and can benefit you. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Magic weapons tend to come later in the game.

Before then, you are still a full-class wizard. Go nuts.



Okay - it can eventually give a +5 DC to all of your terrible spells if you jump through a ton of hoops and you spend a standard action to burn a low level spell at the beginning of every combat to keep it from blowing up in your face. Yay?

So all rays, ranged touch attacks, cones and lines are terrible? Really? All of them?



Okay - but then it gives you +5 ONLY at level 20, and it's not worth casting at all until level 12 (before then the spell slot isn't worth a +2). And you better make sure that it's not in an opposed school to make it worth casting by then.

CL boosts exist too.

Why isn't it worth a +2? That's 2 feats for free, and stacks with them too. And it only gets better as your CL goes up (which it will.)

[CharonsHelper]

So all rays, ranged touch attacks, cones and lines are terrible? Really? All of them?

Pretty much. Evocation is pretty terrible unless you power-game it with evocation (which a spellslinger can't do) combined with a dip into crossblooded sorcerer.


And no, I use standard WBL. Every wizard should get a quicken rod, because action economy is a good thing.

Sure - every wizard whose level is in the teens. Before that they can't afford it.


You're only ignoring the gun until it's magic and can benefit you. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Magic weapons tend to come later in the game.

Except the penalties start way before that. So you're ignoring how terrible the archetype is for the first dozen levels - which is where most campaigns end anyway.


Before then, you are still a full-class wizard. Go nuts.

A horribly sub-par wizard - sure.

[Psyren]

Pretty much. Evocation is pretty terrible unless you power-game it with evocation (which a spellslinger can't do) combined with a dip into crossblooded sorcerer.

1) If you don't want to use those kinds of spells, why on earth are you taking this archetype in the first place? It's clearly not meant for you at that point. This is like complaining about being a Magus because they don't get 9th-level spells.

2) There are useful non-evocation rays, e.g. Enervation or Disintegrate or Ray of Enfeeblement, whose DC will be boosted by your gun as normal.


Sure - every wizard whose level is in the teens. Before that they can't afford it.

What? You can afford it as early as 10th-level, 8th if you make it yourself.



Except the penalties start way before that. So you're ignoring how terrible the archetype is for the first dozen levels - which is where most campaigns end anyway.

What, the banned school stuff? Putting aside the Discovery I mentioned (or wands, scrolls and staves), it's only a penalty if you cast spells from those schools; instead, focus on schools you don't use



A horribly sub-par wizard - sure.

Still T1.

[legomaster00156]

A Spellslinger is a strict downgrade from a standard Wizard, but you can definitely play one. However, you will not be firing bullets from your gun at all. The big advantage of the Spellslinger is adding a firearm's enhancement bonus to both touch attack rolls (meh) and save DC's (!!!).
However, there is one big catch: if anyone who saves against your spell rolls a natural 20, it's treated as a misfire, and the more enemies you catch, the higher the chance someone will roll a 20. First, ask your GM if this incredibly stupid rule can be removed (what sense does it make, that a rogue dodging a cone of flame breaks your gun?). If it can't, well... I wouldn't take this archetype.

[CharonsHelper]

What? You can afford it as early as 10th-level, 8th if you make it yourself.

Sure - if that's practically the only equipment you have. At level 10 it'd be 56% of your entire WBL. Remember - spells in your book count towards WBL. Not to mention all of the wands of Mending and Jury-rig which you're apparently buying will lower it.

Plus - you are apparently forcing the character to be a tiefling. (Technically you could take Gun Twirling - but it's not really viable. You've already claimed that you're burning multiple feats on Arcane Discovery, and getting Gun Twirling takes 5 feats total. Amateur Gunslinger, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus, and Quick Draw are all needed first.)


What, the banned school stuff? Putting aside the Discovery I mentioned (or wands, scrolls and staves), it's only a penalty if you cast spells from those schools; instead, focus on schools you don't use

The banned school stuff. Even with Discovery (which burns character resources) it still hurts. And wands/scrolls/staves will burn more of that WBL, keeping you from getting a rod of quicken.

Sure you can focus on other schools - but their versatility is the best reason to play a wizard in the first place.

Plus you lose Scribe Scroll. You lose your cantrips. You don't get a cool spell-like ability like other wizards. You can't gain a familiar or bonded item. And you're down spells/day because you can't specialize.


Still T1.

Which again - only matter much if you make it to high levels.

[Psyren]

Nah, Wizards are T1 at all levels. And I notice you ignored the other rays with saving throws that I listed.

I would gladly trade a familiar and some feats for +5-+7 to key saving throw DCs, especially if "gun mage" was the concept I wanted to play in the first place.

Not saying there aren't tradeoffs to it, and certainly the "dip" option is the best use for it since the save DC boost scales with your gun rather than your class level - but it has its uses.

[Thunder999]

You're not a good blaster, so not much use for those cones and lines (I'd much rather be an admixture subschool evoker with a crossblooded sorcerer dip for that), very few spells that are valid targets are spells you want to buff the save DCs on, there's really not many good cones or lines (it's almost entirely mediocre blasts), ranged touch attacks and rays often don't allow a save anyway (for example enervation has no save), sure there's a couple like ray of enfeeblement and disintegrate, but they're not worth basing the build around and there's not a lot of them.