Dragonborn are unappealing.

[Lombra]

Seriously, all they get is an elemental resistance and a breath weapon that scales slightly better than a cantrip, but recharges on short rests.

Tieflings get the most useful resistance, darkvision, and good innate spellcasting.
Dwarves receive a penalty to movement speed but get resistance to the second most common and dangerous element on top of weapon proficiencies and two sub races that are both very valueable (and darkvision).
And so on for all the other races except the standard human, which isn't that good.

Why are dragonborn so bland in your opinion? I would bet that something clashed when they decided to make the draconic sorcerous origin.

[jaappleton]

I'd love Dragonborn if they got Darkvision.

Dragonborn Paladins are pretty good, considering that usually Paladins have little to nothing for any sort of AoE damage. I wish their Breath scaled a little better, even just d8s instead of d6s, but whatever. The new Racial Feat for Dragonborn to have them induce a Fear effect is pretty solid.

If they just got Darkvision, I'd love them. As they stand? It's pretty much constantly a hard pass from me. If I want something with Fire resistance, I go Tiefling or Fire Genasi. Dragonborn never even cross my mind.

That said... A Revenant Dragonborn with the Shadow Sorcerous Origin is pretty damn sweet, I'm not gonna lie. Increases to Strength, Con and Charisma, with Darkvision, Necrotic Breath, a Shadow Hound, etc.

[KorvinStarmast]

Seriously, all they get is an elemental resistance and a breath weapon that scales slightly better than a cantrip, but recharges on short rests.
Why are dragonborn so bland in your opinion?
1. They appear to be bland in your opinion.
2. Not everyone chooses a race for a mechanical reason
3. Some folks think being dragonborn is cool.
4. Recharge on a short rest is decent enough feature if you game is run using short rests. (See also the problems for a necromancer if there aren't short rests each adventure day ... or for the monk wanting to recharge Ki, and so on).

I'd offer that if you find the dragon born bland, there are other great choices to play.
One of the challenges D&D has, in the design sense, is the avoidance of power creep as various classes and races are tried out and then introduced.
Aarcokra
Some of the Volo PC races now available.
(To name a few)

[Aett_Thorn]

I still don't know why they don't get Darkvision inherently.

Also, I wouldn't mind them having some sort of natural claw/bite attack that they could use as well.

[Lombra]

I'd love Dragonborn if they got Darkvision.

Dragonborn Paladins are pretty good, considering that usually Paladins have little to nothing for any sort of AoE damage. I wish their Breath scaled a little better, even just d8s instead of d6s, but whatever. The new Racial Feat for Dragonborn to have them induce a Fear effect is pretty solid.

If they just got Darkvision, I'd love them. As they stand? It's pretty much constantly a hard pass from me. If I want something with Fire resistance, I go Tiefling or Fire Genasi. Dragonborn never even cross my mind.

That said... A Revenant Dragonborn with the Shadow Sorcerous Origin is pretty damn sweet, I'm not gonna lie. Increases to Strength, Con and Charisma, with Darkvision, Necrotic Breath, a Shadow Hound, etc.

Yes the lack of darkvision hardly makes sense even for the lore that's written in the PHB, now they are clearly not unplayable, and can be very thematic paladins and sorcerers, but I see them next to much more detailed races like elves and halflings and it just bogs me the lack of content that I feel reading the race. I like how they made the origin easy to understand and apply, but to me it's just too easy if you know what I mean. Then you look at Volo's lizardfolk and ask yourself why do they get so much (even ribbon abilities, flavourful, not necessary damage or hard mechanical benefits) and heirs of the dragons don't.

I can understand that they didn't want to make almost all classes with darkvision to keep darkness a factor in games, but come on.

[lunaticfringe]

My opinion is that they are stupid, have been stupid, and will always be stupid. Didn't like the Everyone Is a Dragon Now Fad in 3.5. But whatever people like them I'm not gonna stop you from playing or judge you for it. No accounting for personal taste and whatnot.

People around these parts pick a race because that what they wanna play, the crunch is generally secondary.

[PeteNutButter]

Hands down the weakest race in the phb, possibly weakest of all.

The breath weapon is so bad that it is almost a trap, because most optimized characters would do a lot more damage just attacking. Doing 3.5-7 damage to probably two or three foes is pretty weak unless it manages to kill them. That means it might briefly help at level 1 when many foes have tiny hit point totals, but after that you are going to be almost always better off attacking.

[Lombra]

1. They appear to be bland in your opinion.
2. Not everyone chooses a race for a mechanical reason
3. Some folks think being dragonborn is cool.
4. Recharge on a short rest is decent enough feature if you game is run using short rests. (See also the problems for a necromancer if there aren't short rests each adventure day ... or for the monk wanting to recharge Ki, and so on).

I'd offer that if you find the dragon born bland, there are other great choices to play.
One of the challenges D&D has, in the design sense, is the avoidance of power creep as various classes and races are tried out and then introduced.
Aarcokra
Some of the Volo PC races now available.
(To name a few)

1. Yes, that's pretty clear since I started this thread, i don't understand :confused:
2.I am one of those not everyone, but I notice detail and depth deficiencies compared to other races so it makes me sad
3.I am one of those
4.The point is not that short rest abilities are bad, because they are good, but specifically breath weapon is kind of underwhelming.

I'm not a newcomer to 5e and am aware that there are many different races that will satisfy my "relative standards" but the point of a forum is to discuss, and I want to discuss my feel for the dragonborn race, do you think that they are sufficiently deep and detailed compared to the other races? (Honest question)

[Lombra]

I still don't know why they don't get Darkvision inherently.

Also, I wouldn't mind them having some sort of natural claw/bite attack that they could use as well.

That's exactly how I feel.

[mephnick]

Never should have been made a core race in the first place. They stripped anything cool about them (rare former elves, humans etc that worshipped a dragon and were reborn in a personal ritual) and made them some bland warrior race so that furries (scalies?) could be a dragon without begging for DM approval.

[Findulidas]

Yeah, I dont like them either. Lizardfolk are just way more fun overall. Could be because I just dont think its amazing to be a dragon or even have dragonwings.


I'd love Dragonborn if they got Darkvision.

This is why 80% of all the races have darkvision though. I wish they would just really tone it down and make it much more rare again. As it is now the two last campaigns I played all characters had darkvision. So many interesting ways to use light in spells and they are just wasted I feel. There is also no dread of walking into a dark corridor or cellar, something Im missing.

[eastmabl]

... a breath weapon that scales slightly better than a cantrip, but recharges on short rests.

How many cantrips are area of effect? Only two cantrips allow for more than one target, period.

[ZorroGames]

Yeah, I dont like them either. Lizardfolk are just way more fun overall. Could be because I just dont think its amazing to be a dragon or even have dragonwings.



This is why 80% of all the races have darkvision though. I wish they would just really tone it down and make it much more rare again. As it is now the two last campaigns I played all characters had darkvision. So many interesting ways to use light in spells and they are just wasted I feel. There is also no dread of walking into a dark corridor or cellar, something Im missing.

Gygax's intent of human centered gaming with other races rare fell of the wagon in the beginning. My thought was Dwarf, Elf, and Gnome didn't need to have essentially infravision or dark vision but I was in a definite minority in that matter even in OD&D. I still remember the dwarf torches in Disney's Snow White clearly. Maybe we give too much to characters who only see shades of grey in dark situations. Maybe it is a DM problem in play rather than a racial build weakness?

[ZorroGames]

Yeah, I dont like them either. Lizardfolk are just way more fun overall. Could be because I just dont think its amazing to be a dragon or even have dragonwings.



This is why 80% of all the races have darkvision though. I wish they would just really tone it down and make it much more rare again. As it is now the two last campaigns I played all characters had darkvision. So many interesting ways to use light in spells and they are just wasted I feel. There is also no dread of walking into a dark corridor or cellar, something Im missing.

Yes as to the Lizard men as characters.

I went so far in my first campaign as a DM to have the Shurr'ssh race (slack in the name please) a major player in the campaign. Pretty much limited to Fighters but it was my first attempt at a new race.

Came from a Wargames invention where the Tercios of Pike and Short Sword/Javelin armed invaders of a world were Shurr'ssh migrating to escape oppression started the campaign.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Revenant Dragonborn Shadow Sorcerer is now going somewhere in my top 10 characters to do. Probably with some vengence pally too. Or hexblade.....

But on topic, The racial feats UA is a big reason to play dragonborn, but only if you're table allows it. I personally want some elemental bite attack in there and of course darkvision, but if not then i grab lizardfolk as my go to lizardman race every time. Kobolds are beneath me (though they are good, i just don't like them).

[Vorok]

This is why 80% of all the races have darkvision though. I wish they would just really tone it down and make it much more rare again. As it is now the two last campaigns I played all characters had darkvision. So many interesting ways to use light in spells and they are just wasted I feel. There is also no dread of walking into a dark corridor or cellar, something Im missing.

If the monsters in the dark are stealthy, even with darkvision they have quite a bit of advantage (i don't mean the game mechanic in this sentence), because dim light (e.g. a pc with a darkvision in a dark corridor or a cellar) imposes disadvantage on perception checks (using sight)/ subtract 5 from passive perception. Even with darkvision, there's a high chance for successful ambushes. The pcs with darkvision also see in black and white (iirc, i could be wrong), which could mean they miss some color-based puzzle/hint.

[Arkhios]

I find their racial abilities to be rather cool, actually. The reason why I dislike playing them is that I can't wrap it around my head that on the other hand they are draconic humanoids, but on the other, they have boobs. I mean, come on! Aren't they supposed to lay eggs like dragons, etc? What do they need breasts for? :smalltongue:

[lunaticfringe]

Eh I've allowed a Shadow Dragon Ancestor to get Necrotic Breath & slapped on Darkvision for a player. I don't like the weird clunkiness of the Universal Revenant subrace. It feels like a half done idea, I don't want more work Mearls (or whoever wrote that UA). Also screw that Plot Immortality​ Bull****.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Eh I've allowed a Shadow Dragon Ancestor to get Necrotic Breath & slapped on Darkvision for a player. I don't like the weird clunkiness of the Universal Revenant subrace. It feels like a half done idea, I don't want more work Mearls (or whoever wrote that UA). Also screw that Plot Immortality​ Bull****.

Plot armor is the bees knees man. You wouldn't call it bs if it was on say a high level cleric and the party wiped. Big bang boom. Lots of money and everyone is rezzed.

[lunaticfringe]

Plot armor is the bees knees man. You wouldn't call it bs if it was on say a high level cleric and the party wiped. Big bang boom. Lots of money and everyone is rezzed.

Meh sure if you're a filthy player. If I wipe you it's by design or you made some serious Tactical Blunders. I started with Dark Sun my friend, where it was highly suggested you make toons in groups of 3. Characters die, that is an important lesson every Roleplayer should learn. Suck it up and reroll.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Meh sure if you're a filthy player. If I wipe you it's by design or you made some serious Tactical Blunders. I started with Dark Sun my friend, where it was highly suggested you make toons in groups of 3. Characters die, that is an important lesson every Roleplayer should learn. Suck it up and reroll.

Maybe the case for you. But Dragon King Darkedge Shadowblade will always live on, unless he needs to die because it would be the edgiest thing to do, but he will leave a vague message just in case he needs a loophole for the sequel.

[Zorku]

Out of curiosity, who's read any of the 4e content for dragonborn? The whole Arkhosia-Tiefling narrative and the fall of Io really made the race 'click' as a proper fantasy-folk with their usual bias and racism and ideals and such, once I came across it. I've only got the one reason to guess at why they made no mention of that in the 5e PHB, but you'd think they would at least have some alternative material to hint at in the flavor text.


Never should have been made a core race in the first place. They stripped anything cool about them (rare former elves, humans etc that worshipped a dragon and were reborn in a personal ritual) and made them some bland warrior race so that furries (scalies?) could be a dragon without begging for DM approval.

The one that I DM'd for once, was entirely against being a dragonborn due to the lack of a tail. Practically a paradox, that.

[krunchyfrogg]

I kind of want to play one just to try it out, possibly with a far traveler background. I think it might be fun.

They should have claw attacks, and a natural armor of some sort.

They don't, and they're very difficult to optimize IMHO.

[Honest Tiefling]

Never should have been made a core race in the first place. They stripped anything cool about them (rare former elves, humans etc that worshipped a dragon and were reborn in a personal ritual) and made them some bland warrior race so that furries (scalies?) could be a dragon without begging for DM approval.

Eh. I'd rather that some oddball races like the Dragonborn or the tiefling make it into the PHB then it all be bog standard. Rather see a little variation in the races then just humans with pointy ears.

The boob thing is I think a little strange, but I assume that it is an artifact of human descent, either that they were born of humans from rituals (like the 3e version) or shaped by draconic gods who didn't feel like removing tatas, or even just left them on so it'd be easier for non-chosen humanoids to interact with their chosen race. I also guess that not every woman who would undergo a ritual to become a super awesome dragon woman would want her boobs removed even if they serve no biological purpose, but that's just a guess.

And honestly if you play with enough people, you'll find someone who fetishsizes every. Single. Pelor-forsaken. Race.

[Lombra]

How many cantrips are area of effect? Only two cantrips allow for more than one target, period.

How many cantrips recharge on a short rest? If it were at-will it would be kinda strong, but somethig like constitution mod/short rest would be more useful and make more sense IMO.


I find their racial abilities to be rather cool, actually. The reason why I dislike playing them is that I can't wrap it around my head that on the other hand they are draconic humanoids, but on the other, they have boobs. I mean, come on! Aren't they supposed to lay eggs like dragons, etc? What do they need breasts for? :smalltongue:

Just because they are humanoids it doesn't mean that they are vivipara mammals, they can easily be ovipara reptiles :amused:

But I can understand that the fandom may want "amazing chest" on their dragonborn.

[Kane0]

Give 'em Darkvision and buff their breath a little. That should do it.

[ZorroGames]

Heck, toss them true infravision and they see those warm blooded monsters "hiding" in the dark. Or smell them/hear them when humanoids don't. Be creative.

[Lombra]

Another odd point is that dragonborn exists as a player race but you still can become an half-dragon (from any race) with the blessing of your DM, which gives you (in addition to all your race abilities) darkvision, 10ft blindsight and a better breath weapon.

[Corran]

Another odd point is that dragonborn exists as a player race but you still can become an half-dragon (from any race) with the blessing of your DM, which gives you (in addition to all your race abilities) darkvision, 10ft blindsight and a better breath weapon.
Emphasis mine.
I am not a huge dragonborn fan, but to me this sounds closer to what a dragonborn should be rather than the PHB version.

[DragonSorcererX]

DRAGONBLOOD > ALL!

I want my cute TRUE DRAGON kobolds back... :smallfrown: (I wish I was intelligent enough to learn 3.5 and play a Dragonborn Crusader, even if it was a DMPC)...

[lunaticfringe]

DRAGONBLOOD > ALL!

I want my cute TRUE DRAGON kobolds back... :smallfrown: (I wish I was intelligent enough to learn 3.5 and play a Dragonborn Crusader, even if it was a DMPC)...

Heretic! Everyone knows kobolds are Goblinoids! Maglubiyet will one day Purge the non believers!

[DragonSorcererX]

Heretic! Everyone knows kobolds are Goblinoids! Maglubiyet will one day Purge the non believers!

Maglubiyet is a piece of ****! And goblinoids arel lowly scum, a lesser race that only serve to be minions!

Kobolds in the other hand are a glorious and intelligent draconic race, they are industrious and smart, they also are skilled tinkerers and alchemists (it's a shame that they use all that intelligence and skill just to craft traps), and different from ****ty goblinoids, kobolds are capable of sustaining their communities by themselves, they don't need to rely on barbaric things like slavery and raiding (unless they are doing it for living gods called dragons, or true gods like Tiamat), and the most important of all, they have innate magical power, so they don't need to waste their time studying, they can simply unlock that magical power and go to work to improve the community, while a ****ty goblin would simple DO NOTHING with his power other than push other goblins around.

[lunaticfringe]

Maglubiyet is a piece of ****! And goblinoids arel lowly scum, a lesser race that only serve to be minions!

Kobolds in the other hand are a glorious and intelligent draconic race, they are industrious and smart, they also are skilled tinkerers and alchemists (it's a shame that they use all that intelligence and skill just to craft traps), and different from ****ty goblinoids, kobolds are capable of sustaining their communities by themselves, they don't need to rely on barbaric things like slavery and raiding (unless they are doing it for living gods called dragons, or true gods like Tiamat), and the most important of all, they have innate magical power, so they don't need to waste their time studying, they can simply unlock that magical power and go to work to improve the community, while a ****ty goblin would simple DO NOTHING with his power other than push other goblins around.

I was about to say. Eberron is like the perfect example of how Gobs can be awesome and of how Dragonizing things willy nilly to sell splatbooks can really **** up a setting.

Nice edit. =P

[mephnick]

Eh. I'd rather that some oddball races like the Dragonborn or the tiefling make it into the PHB then it all be bog standard. Rather see a little variation in the races then just humans with pointy ears.

I care less that they made a weird race core and more that they made them boring. They had cool fluff in past editions and turned them boring IMO. I have a much bigger problem with tieflings and drow making the PhB but that's been discussed in other threads and I know I'm in the minority apparently.

[DragonSorcererX]

I was about to say. Eberron is like the perfect example of how Gobs can be awesome and of how Dragonizing things willy nilly to sell splatbooks can really **** up a setting.

Nice edit. =P

I only edited for political reasons (you can't give your political view here in the forum, wich is fair), but Dragons of Eberron is an awesome book!

And I don't see Eberron Goblins as something cool, I see them as the same slaver lowly and ugly scum, except that now they have their own country, wich makes it easier to genocide them with a massive AoE because they are mostly concentrated in one place.

[F.H. Zebedee]

In our setting, Dragonborn have tails and can have wings (before they did the UA feat, we had a level-scaling flight feat for races that could have wings as a mutation/genetic throwback, like Tieflings and Dragonborn). The bosom doesn't bother me too bad, we've been fluffing dragons/dragonborn/kobolds as synapsids (e.g. the mammalian reptiles at the dawn of the mesozoic), so they trend towards a combination of mammal and reptile traits (the most advanced kobold bloodlines have started growing feathers, a la primitive birds).

Dragonborn is weak, but we've been juicing them up a bit via DM tricks (e.g. giving a player a sword that refills his firebreath every time he drops a foe with it, making draconic one of the most common languages in ancient ruins, etc)

[Ninja-Radish]

The Dragonborn are by far the worst race in the game, unless you happen to be playing a paladin. How is it that Lizardfolk turned out to be so cool mechanically but dragonborn so awful?

Personally, I would just play a Lizardfolk and re-fluff him as dragonborn. Unless I was playing a pally.

[Milo v3]

They had a neat and unique identity back in 3.5e, but Dragonborn in 5e seem like "I want to play a dragon-person" without much else.

[Luccan]

Seriously, all they get is an elemental resistance and a breath weapon that scales slightly better than a cantrip, but recharges on short rests.

Tieflings get the most useful resistance, darkvision, and good innate spellcasting.
Dwarves receive a penalty to movement speed but get resistance to the second most common and dangerous element on top of weapon proficiencies and two sub races that are both very valueable (and darkvision).
And so on for all the other races except the standard human, which isn't that good.

Why are dragonborn so bland in your opinion? I would bet that something clashed when they decided to make the draconic sorcerous origin.

Playing a Dragonborn Fighter as my first 5e character. Haven't gotten into combat yet, but I've enjoyed playing a charismatic warrior who isn't a Paladin (which my 3.5 experience and knowledge would tell me is the only "safe" charismatic warrior choice) and playing against the super serious warrior background they get by trying to imitate his draconic ancestors, copper dragons (though in a less annoying manner).

I guess if you wanted a mechanical reason to play them, they have a unique stat bonus combo that could work for some builds, an AOE attack that, while not great, is one more AOE attack than some classes get, and you can choose the most useful resistance in the game if you want. It's not like you have to roll on a table to get fire resistance.

But if I'm being honest, I think people play them for the reason they chose to play any mechanically under powered race from any edition, that is, it's about the character, not the character sheet. I really doubt optimizers are considering the dragonborn in most cases, but a player with a concept can get some genuine fun out of them.

[Findulidas]

Yeah, its probably the fluff thats lacking in the dragonborn.


Gygax's intent of human centered gaming with other races rare fell of the wagon in the beginning.

You are probably right. Ive been toying with the idea of campaign where atleast half the party are humans, but I dont think anyone in my group would think that would be fun.

I honestly think the player races could be helped by having more variants of humans like it is in skyrim. Like a barbarian norse nomad variant. One thats more towards spellcasting and knowledge. One thats part of the roman empire and society. Of course a problem with this would be all the unfortunate implications. Just loads of more fluff for humans would help a lot though I think.


I have a much bigger problem with tieflings and drow making the PhB but that's been discussed in other threads and I know I'm in the minority apparently.

I would agree to that. Almost all thieflings and drow without fail are the same characters that are either rebels from their own kind or were persecuted in the home town and are out to prove themselves. It doesnt help that both drow and thieflings are probably more inherently evil than most other races yet they are rarely played like that. While you might be in the minority in those discussions I know several people that would agree to it so its not a fringe minority.

[Lombra]

Playing a Dragonborn Fighter as my first 5e character. Haven't gotten into combat yet, but I've enjoyed playing a charismatic warrior who isn't a Paladin (which my 3.5 experience and knowledge would tell me is the only "safe" charismatic warrior choice) and playing against the super serious warrior background they get by trying to imitate his draconic ancestors, copper dragons (though in a less annoying manner).

I guess if you wanted a mechanical reason to play them, they have a unique stat bonus combo that could work for some builds, an AOE attack that, while not great, is one more AOE attack than some classes get, and you can choose the most useful resistance in the game if you want. It's not like you have to roll on a table to get fire resistance.

But if I'm being honest, I think people play them for the reason they chose to play any mechanically under powered race from any edition, that is, it's about the character, not the character sheet. I really doubt optimizers are considering the dragonborn in most cases, but a player with a concept can get some genuine fun out of them.

I'm not saying that you can't have fun with them, in fact I am going to play a gold dragonborn life cleric of Bahamut, and I look forward to have lots of fun with it, it's just that they feel (to me) like they were put in the book because they needed to fill two pages.

Your character sounds intreasting by the way, there's nothing unsafe about a charismatic fighter :smile:

The breath is a "free" AoE situationally usefulbut as the level goes on the damage is less and less impactful.

[raygun goth]

I'd probably never play one myself, but they do stick out - I run games for a lot of new players, and a lot of them are not exposed to European-style fantasy at all, and the only way they can recall D&D being different from, say, Earthdawn or most other fantasy RPGs is two things. The Dragonborn and the Warforged. Dragonborn, to many of the people I play with, are immediately recognizable as something wholly D&D. They're more unique in the grand scheme of RPGs than they appear to be. I'd personally prefer that warforged be more recognizable, but they don't appear to have gone over well outside Eberron.

They do really need some culture work to seem less Klingon-y though.

[Vorok]

I would agree to that. Almost all thieflings and drow without fail are the same characters that are either rebels from their own kind or were persecuted in the home town and are out to prove themselves. It doesnt help that both drow and thieflings are probably more inherently evil than most other races yet they are rarely played like that. While you might be in the minority in those discussions I know several people that would agree to it so its not a fringe minority.

Not sure about drow, but Tieflings have an entry addressing their alignments in the PHB "The reality, though, is that a tiefling’s bloodline doesn’t affect his or her personality to any great degree."
So if they have evil alignments, it's for other reasons (e.g. mistreatment, born into evil family etc), not because they are inherently more evil than some other races.

[Ralanr]

Never should have been made a core race in the first place. They stripped anything cool about them (rare former elves, humans etc that worshipped a dragon and were reborn in a personal ritual) and made them some bland warrior race so that furries (scalies?) could be a dragon without begging for DM approval.

Personally I prefer dragonborn as the draconic humanoid playable race over "humans with scales and wings" or "kobolds" that are usually the stand ins for players that want to play something draconic related.


That being said, I've felt that 5e dragonborn being weak is a result of fear from their connection to 4e where they were introduced as a core race (in the first playerbook no less). It's obvious that Wizards think that Dragonborn as a playable race are worth preserving, but they probably understand that they can draw a lot of issue with older players. So trying to avoid making them "good" is probably their way to avoid that.

They honestly should have darkvision but I think they wanted to avoid giving so many races the ability to see without a torch as they crawled through the dungeon.

Breath weapon could have been better.

[Findulidas]

Not sure about drow, but Tieflings have an entry addressing their alignments in the PHB "The reality, though, is that a tiefling’s bloodline doesn’t affect his or her personality to any great degree."
So if they have evil alignments, it's for other reasons (e.g. mistreatment, born into evil family etc), not because they are inherently more evil than some other races.

I see. I thought they by canon actually had some naturally evil blood in them from the parent/ancestor. I do know that some of the d100 mutations that you could roll for in pathfinder, such as a whistling umbilicus, were just horrible or hilarious depending on how you played it out.

[Ninja-Radish]

I see. I thought they by canon actually had some naturally evil blood in them from the parent/ancestor. I do know that some of the d100 mutations that you could roll for in pathfinder, such as a whistling umbilicus, were just horrible or hilarious depending on how you played it out.

Nah, they just look like they would be evil, but they don't need to be. Also, unlike Drow, Tieflings don't actually have a society of their own, so each Tiefling is a product of the society they happened to be raised in, whatever it is.

To me, Drow are the problematic ones.

[Zorku]

They had a neat and unique identity back in 3.5e, but Dragonborn in 5e seem like "I want to play a dragon-person" without much else.

I skipped over them in 3.5. What book introduces the race? (Or alternatively gimme a summary of how it made them cool.)

[Arkhios]

I skipped over them in 3.5. What book introduces the race? (Or alternatively gimme a summary of how it made them cool.)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/RoDragonCover.jpg

[Beelzebubba]

They are unappealing in RAW, but a couple small house rules and they're fine.

[JellyPooga]

They do really need some culture work to seem less Klingon-y though.

If they went full-Klingon; the culture, food, opera, honour and so forth, I'd probably be more interested in them. As they stand, there's not nearly enough more than "they're big and scaly" that makes them in any way interesting to play IMO. Back in 3ed when they were uber-paladins of Bahamut, they were kinda awesome; they had character and purpose. Since 4ed though? To me they just feel like token lip service for all the dragon fan-boys to play as dragons.

If Wizards really wanted to make them something core to D&D, they should have put more effort in. As they stand? Lacklustre and uninspiring. I mean what have they got going for them really? Draconic Sorcerer? Nope, Resistance overlaps. Fighter? Eh, they've got Strength, but what else? A somewhat poxy breath weapon. Woot. Even outside of trope, say Rogue or Cleric, they're just not going to shine because they've got squat that really works for them.

Grar...ranting.

[Honest Tiefling]

They honestly should have darkvision but I think they wanted to avoid giving so many races the ability to see without a torch as they crawled through the dungeon.

Personally, I'd find it hilarious if a city populated by gnomes and elves kept forgetting to accommodate their human visitors and keep wondering why the humans keep wandering into furniture and screaming in pain...I think you could do something interesting with the setting (underground, magical darkness, etc.) with the races with Darkvision, and so many monsters iconically have it it'd be weird to start removing it.

I guess I just like the idea that humans are sometimes special in that they are blind when others are not, much to their confusion and annoyance.


If they went full-Klingon; the culture, food, opera, honour and so forth, I'd probably be more interested in them. As they stand, there's not nearly enough more than "they're big and scaly" that makes them in any way interesting to play IMO.

I assume from the Opera comment you mean TNG Klingons, not TOS Klingons. I never really cared for the TNG Klingons, but if it were combined with the ultra-paladiness that'd be pretty cool. Super warrior culture with an extreme honor code for GOODNESS, instead of showcasing how much you can snarl. And a race with a strength bonus would make a lot more sense for Klingon mating habits.

I fear that Dragonborn are pretty vague because they wanted a setting-lite version for the PHB (few races are much better) and wanted to push multiple settings, not just a singular one. I sorta hope we get racial books with racial feats (and a few for a group of races) and more fluff and subclasses. Heck, even web articles would be nice.

[Ralanr]

Personally, I'd find it hilarious if a city populated by gnomes and elves kept forgetting to accommodate their human visitors and keep wondering why the humans keep wandering into furniture and screaming in pain...I think you could do something interesting with the setting (underground, magical darkness, etc.) with the races with Darkvision, and so many monsters iconically have it it'd be weird to start removing it.

I guess I just like the idea that humans are sometimes special in that they are blind when others are not, much to their confusion and annoyance.

Huh...wow. Dwarf and elf cities don't need torchlight at all.

This should come up more often.

[Lombra]

Huh...wow. Dwarf and elf cities don't need torchlight at all.

This should come up more often.

I'm pretty sure that seeng in shades of grey wouldn't be pleasing. They should at least be dim-lit

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm pretty sure that seeng in shades of grey wouldn't be pleasing. They should at least be dim-lit

The problem is, think of all of the smoke that could cause, as well as the expense. Seeing all-gray might not be pleasant, but neither are taxes. It might meant that they have lesser curfews then human cities, since more of the populace could see at night.

I wonder if letting Dragonborn see in color with darkvision might be thematically appropriate?

[Lombra]

The problem is, think of all of the smoke that could cause, as well as the expense. Seeing all-gray might not be pleasant, but neither are taxes. It might meant that they have lesser curfews then human cities, since more of the populace could see at night.

I wonder if letting Dragonborn see in color with darkvision might be thematically appropriate?

I'm sorry, I don't understand, is this sarcasm? I was referring to the game-terms dim light, and not specifically about torches: lightbugs, some weird crystals, light emitting mushrooms all could be used to dimly light the cities of the darkvision races.

[Lombra]

Ok so here are some things that I think would have been nice: dragonborn of the appropriate origin should get the amphibious trait like their ancestors, and others should get the dual-breath weapon as their ancestors. Maybe even some burrow speeds?

[Ralanr]

I'm pretty sure that seeng in shades of grey wouldn't be pleasing. They should at least be dim-lit

Considering how practical dwarves tend to be, I doubt it would matter much. Elves on the other hand I can see.


Ok so here are some things that I think would have been nice: dragonborn of the appropriate origin should get the amphibious trait like their ancestors, and others should get the dual-breath weapon as their ancestors. Maybe even some burrow speeds?

I have never understood how any humanoid playable race can have a burrow speed. To move even five feet into the ground in six seconds is nothing short of nuts.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm sorry, I don't understand, is this sarcasm? I was referring to the game-terms dim light, and not specifically about torches: lightbugs, some weird crystals, light emitting mushrooms all could be used to dimly light the cities of the darkvision races.

Ah, no, just that for a standard city having torches all over the place would just not be a practical solution due to expense if everyone can see. It might not be pretty, but it is better then nothing. The idea of using insects or natural forms of luminescence is an interesting counter point since they would fix the money issue.

[lunaticfringe]

I only edited for political reasons (you can't give your political view here in the forum, wich is fair), but Dragons of Eberron is an awesome book!

And I don't see Eberron Goblins as something cool, I see them as the same slaver lowly and ugly scum, except that now they have their own country, wich makes it easier to genocide them with a massive AoE because they are mostly concentrated in one place.

Darguun is a new nation and not representative of all goblinoids. I have played many greenskins in Eberron and none were Dhakaani that's the Awesome part. That is the awesome part of Eberron you play Regional not Racial. Goblins are spread throughout Khorvaire. The Conquered it, Sharn was built by them they have a History that isn't squatting in caves and being ruled by something with a higher CR.

[JumboWheat01]

I'm pretty sure that seeng in shades of grey wouldn't be pleasing. They should at least be dim-lit

Being colorblind, I can tell you that grayscale can be quite thematically pleasing. Though there is some bias in that opinion...


Out of curiosity, who's read any of the 4e content for dragonborn? The whole Arkhosia-Tiefling narrative and the fall of Io really made the race 'click' as a proper fantasy-folk with their usual bias and racism and ideals and such, once I came across it. I've only got the one reason to guess at why they made no mention of that in the 5e PHB, but you'd think they would at least have some alternative material to hint at in the flavor text.

I think that's one of the main differences in the editions. I believe 4e's "main" setting was Greyhawk, while 5e's "main" setting is the Realms. Completely different stories there.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think that's one of the main differences in the editions. I believe 4e's "main" setting was Greyhawk, while 5e's "main" setting is the Realms. Completely different stories there.

4e was actually when it first switched from Greyhawk to the Realms. But 5e basically undid all of 4e so I would count them as vastly different beasts.

[JumboWheat01]

Ah, all I have is 4e's first PHB, and the gods listed there were decidedly not the Realms, and seemed similar to what I know of Greyhawk (admittedly, quite little.)

But yeah, I think most things pretty much act like 4e didn't really happen to the Realms. Helps that Ao hit that big red RESET button.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

4e was actually when it first switched from Greyhawk to the Realms. But 5e basically undid all of 4e so I would count them as vastly different beasts.

Bzzt! WRONG! 1st edition used Greyhawk. 2nd edition, I don't know what it used. 3rd edition used an ostensibly generic setting that ultimately boiled down to Greyhawk without explicitly saying so. 4th edition used a completely brand new base setting, officially called "Points of Light", but more commonly referred to as Nentir Vale, as that was the setting of all the material plane-set adventures of the edition.

4th edition had Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, yeah. So did 3rd edition. But FR was NOT the default setting for 4th edition, even if the 4e Realms was given a shake-up to be more like the Nentir Vale setting in some ways.

There's a difference. Learn it!

[JackPhoenix]

Darguun is a new nation and not representative of all goblinoids. I have played many greenskins in Eberron and none were Dhakaani that's the Awesome part. That is the awesome part of Eberron you play Regional not Racial. Goblins are spread throughout Khorvaire. The Conquered it, Sharn was built by them they have a History that isn't squatting in caves and being ruled by something with a higher CR.

Agreed. Another nice thing that they have DIVERSE cultures. In many settings, there's about zero cultural diversity in non-human races. What? But those 3 goblin tribes are totally different! See, one wears blue, one green and the last red! Also, one rides giant spiders, another worgs, and the last one... erm... let's say giant wasps! Such amazing different cultures!

City goblin from Sharn has almost nothing common with Droaam goblin slave or Darguuni goblin, and even in Darguun itself, there's a cultural difference between generic clans of Heirs of Dhakaan and groups like Silent clans (goblin ninjas!) or Wordbearers.

Speaking of dragonborn, I don't like that 4e forced them into Eberron (though I dislike the addition of Baator to the cosmology much, much more) when the general attitude of dragons towards anything dragonblooded was "kill on sight". Q'barra was fine enough with various kinds of lizardfolk. Rhashaak's half-dragon versions get a pass, he's crazy and corrupted.

[Knaight]

I think that's one of the main differences in the editions. I believe 4e's "main" setting was Greyhawk, while 5e's "main" setting is the Realms. Completely different stories there.


There's a difference. Learn it!

Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are basically the same setting. There's a few tiny cosmetic differences, and if you take the gigantic list of similarities as givens and ignore them in your analysis the settings can appear meaningfully different. Stepping back a bit (to RPGs of the high fantasy subgenre, no need to step that far back) reveals the numerous ways they are nigh identical.

[KorvinStarmast]

Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are basically the same setting. . Uh, what? Do you base that on how they attach to all other planes, or something else?

[Honest Tiefling]

Bzzt! WRONG! 1st edition used Greyhawk. 2nd edition, I don't know what it used. 3rd edition used an ostensibly generic setting that ultimately boiled down to Greyhawk without explicitly saying so. 4th edition used a completely brand new base setting, officially called "Points of Light", but more commonly referred to as Nentir Vale, as that was the setting of all the material plane-set adventures of the edition.

Weird. For some reason I assumed 2nd was Greyhawk, probably because 3rd made a LOT of references (look at the god list and godless clerics) to it. As for 4e being Nentir Vale or Forgotten Realms...Yeah, I am wrong. The core rulebooks aren't Realms, but the organized play was as were most of the books, just to be a confusing mess to explain to new players. Still, it's going to be hard for many people to distinguish between the settings at this point.

[Knaight]

Uh, what? Do you base that on how they attach to all other planes, or something else?

I base that on how they have a ridiculous amount of overlap. You've got your standard Tolkien knockoff races, you've got an elaborate and nigh identical cosmology (those other planes are included in the setting), you've got a world full of monsters (with pretty heavy overlap in said monsters), you've got the D&D casting system and the setting implications that go with it, you've got essentially the same fantasy archetypes set up as central to the setting, you've got setting specific elements like the underdark showing up in both settings, you've got the collection of ridiculously high powered characters in both settings, you've got the faux-medieval backdrop, so on and so forth. FR, Greyhawk, Nentir Vale, Golarion, they're all pretty much the same setting with a slightly different coat of paint.

[JumboWheat01]

Following that logic, with the exception of the D&D magic system, you can say pretty much every RPG is the same thing with a different coat of paint and different words for the same thing.

[Honest Tiefling]

Following that logic, with the exception of the D&D magic system, you can say pretty much every RPG is the same thing with a different coat of paint and different words for the same thing.

I disagree. FR and Greyhawk have a lot of similarities that Planescape/Eberron/Dark Sun don't have. You could pull a random bit of art from Greyhawk or FR and try to get people to guess which one it is and they'd probably fail. The others have distinct themes (belief for Planescape, the idea of more debatable alignments for Eberron, and OH MY GODS I AM DYING AND BURNING AIIIEIEEEE for Dark Sun)

[JumboWheat01]

Well to be fair, those three settings were pretty much designed to be as different as possible, from other D&D settings and heck, your standard RPG setting in general.

Probably why they have such devoted followings.

[Honest Tiefling]

Probably why they have such devoted followings.

I'm not unconvinced that this forum doesn't just argue for fun. You could probably start a 30 page thread on the best breakfast cereal.

But design intent or no, it's going to be a lot harder to confuse 'political dungeonpunk game with awesome robots' with 'that setting where all of those novels took place in pseudo-medieval world and with the NPCs you keep seeing in the core rulebooks'.

I do wonder how much of FR is really Forgotten Realms from the novels before it became a DnD world and how much of it was made up by other people at this point.

[Knaight]

Following that logic, with the exception of the D&D magic system, you can say pretty much every RPG is the same thing with a different coat of paint and different words for the same thing.


I disagree. FR and Greyhawk have a lot of similarities that Planescape/Eberron/Dark Sun don't have. You could pull a random bit of art from Greyhawk or FR and try to get people to guess which one it is and they'd probably fail. The others have distinct themes (belief for Planescape, the idea of more debatable alignments for Eberron, and OH MY GODS I AM DYING AND BURNING AIIIEIEEEE for Dark Sun)
Firstly, I'd agree with this. There's a lot within D&D alone far further from both FR and Greyhawk than they are from each other (particularly once you bring in the 2e settings, such as Al Qadim or Mazatlan). They're still pretty similar in some ways, but some degree of that is expected from all of them being made for different editions of one non-generic RPG. They certainly differ enough that they aren't basically the same setting.

The differences get even more stark when you start including other systems. Even sticking to fantasy, REIGN's Heluso and Milonda setting and Qin's fantasy Warring States look and feel dramatically different from each other and from anything that came from D&D. Going a bit further afield, FR looks dramatically different from the settings of Eclipse Phase, Bliss Stage, Traveler, Paranoia and Warbirds, all of which are very distinct from each other.


Well to be fair, those three settings were pretty much designed to be as different as possible, from other D&D settings and heck, your standard RPG setting in general.
If different settings for the same RPG are enough to demonstrate that the extension from FR and Greyhawk being about the same to every RPG being the same, then the idea is clearly farcical. There isn't really a standard RPG setting across RPGs, and while Forgotten Golarihawk is probably more than 50% of the settings out there that's just because D&D is so dominant. Move towards more esoteric D&D settings, and there's a fair amount of variety. Move out of D&D entirely and there's a ton.

[JumboWheat01]

Now that would be an undertaking... though I think, even with "each DM's version of a setting is their own," thing in consideration or no, a lot of Forgotten Realms play is probably quite similar BECAUSE of all the novels and short stories, probably more so than any other settings.

Though I wonder how many try to "write out" Drizzt...

[Honest Tiefling]

Now that would be an undertaking... though I think, even with "each DM's version of a setting is their own," thing in consideration or no, a lot of Forgotten Realms play is probably quite similar BECAUSE of all the novels and short stories, probably more so than any other settings.

...People read those? I've only met 1 person who did.

And if that comment about each Realms game being its own setting was directed at my comment, I fear I was unclear. I meant more the changes forced onto the setting by TSR/WOTC, turning it into a different beast then earlier versions. I do wonder how much of it was written by different people at those companies at this point and what their visions were. I wouldn't be surprised if it was steered towards being a Greyhawk clone due to editors.

[JumboWheat01]

Oh, no, that was a line in the PHB. At least I think it was, maybe it's in the MM. I have to reread those. I'm pretty sure it's in one of those two.