Should I fireball the paladin?

[NecroDancer]

In our group we often need every bit of extra damage so high damage roles are VERY valuable.

However I've noticed a trend, whenever we cast fireball and the paladin is within it's AoE the fireball deals way more damage than normal (like 10 extra points). This has happened multiple times to the point where I'm CONVINCED that the dice are extra lucky if the the paladin is a victim of friendly fire. This trend also occurs with other AoE spells like cone of cold.

Now our paladin doesn't like being fireballed (mainly because he dumped dexterity and his horse tends to be turned to BBQ) and wants us to stop fireballing him. However the math doesn't lie and we need every bit of extra damage. How can I convince the paladin's player to let us fireball him to appease the dice gods?

EDIT: I was told that the tag wasn't obvious so I'll repeat, this is a purely sarcastic post.

[Alderic78]

Tell him it's for the greater good.

[nickl_2000]

The answer to this question is alway "Yes" In every possible situation, you should always Fireball the paladin.



You have a player issue here though. If you have talked it over and the paladin doesn't like being fireballed, then it's probably best to not do it. Alternately you could try and talk it over with the DM and see if the DM would be willing to help out. Maybe some draconic armor that provides resistance to fire damage. Maybe give him a buff that will help (Enhance Ability - cat's grace, Fire Shield, Protections from Energy, etc).

[Talyn]

Buy or craft him a magic item so that his horse doesn't get cooked. "Bridle of Fire Resistance" or something.

Speaking as the paladin in my group, getting me fire-resistance (and, later fire-immune) was a worthwhile investment for everyone. I just charge into the middle, tie up as many bad guys as possible, and let the casters drop the fireballs right on top of me. I've been crowned the "Patron Saint of Danger Close."

I did go through a lot of horses at first. Now that I'm higher level, I just use Find Steed and re-summon the poor bastard when necessary.

[Pex]

Play an Evoker wizard.

Cast Protection From Energy (Fire) on him.

Get him a magic item of fire resistance.

Ask for his permission in combat when it would really be an opportune time to cast the spell, not just because you want to, and allow him to say no if he'll allow to take one for the team from time to time.

Just don't. It is rude to cast a harmful spell where your party members are.

[Findulidas]

I want to say yes. However I know you shouldnt.

[DivisibleByZero]

You have a player issue here though. If you have talked it over and the paladin doesn't like being fireballed, then it's probably best to not do it.

This is garbage.
He doesn't like it, so you probably shouldn't do it?

It's the luck of the dice. It's a game.
If he doesn't like it, maybe he should not place himself in the exact area of effect of where that fireball is going to be placed.... every single time. He dumped his Dex. He chose to ride a squishy mount into the fray. He placed himself and his mount in a position to get blasted.
Those were all his choices.
He can deal with it or go to his safe space.

[Sigreid]

Get him to change his coat of arms to 3 concentric red circles to help with your aim.

And this is what evoker is for.

[Mortis_Elrod]

And this is what evoker is for.

What if it doesnt work when you sculpt him out the spell? I say fireball away. He's the tank, he should tanking the hits. Just heal him later. give him extra horse money

[nickl_2000]

This is garbage.
He doesn't like it, so you probably shouldn't do it?

It's the luck of the dice. It's a game. He can deal with it or go to his safe space.

I respectfully disagree about it being garbage. Whether or not it's the right choice in the game, players will likely be seeing the person outside of the game. Do I see it as a big deal? No, I don't. Would it bother me? No, it certainly wouldn't. Would I change tactics, on the table, if it were truly bothering a friend of mine on off the D&D table? absolutely I would. The friendship would be more important to me than the ideal tactics at a D&D table.

The attitude of "deal with it or leave" works fine in a place where you don't care about the other players, but if you do it's more complicated. I don't know the table, I don't know the player, and I don't know the situation.

There are other solutions as I mentioned though, ways to make everyone happier and solve the problem that would be way more effective in the long run.

[DivisibleByZero]

I respectfully disagree about it being garbage. Whether or not it's the right choice in the game, players will likely be seeing the person outside of the game. Do I see it as a big deal? No, I don't. Would it bother me? No, it certainly wouldn't. Would I change tactics, on the table, if it were truly bothering a friend of mine on off the D&D table? absolutely I would. The friendship would be more important to me than the ideal tactics at a D&D table.

The attitude of "deal with it or leave" works fine in a place where you don't care about the other players, but if you do it's more complicated. I don't know the table, I don't know the player, and I don't know the situation.

There are other solutions as I mentioned though, ways to make everyone happier and solve the problem that would be way more effective in the long run.

You missed my edit.

It's the luck of the dice. It's a game.
If he doesn't like it, maybe he should not place himself in the exact area of effect of where that fireball is going to be placed.... every single time. He dumped his Dex. He chose to ride a squishy mount into the fray. He placed himself and his mount in a position to get blasted.
Those were all his choices.
He can deal with it or go to his safe space.

Would I change tactics if it were bothering a friend of mine?
Depends. In this case, I probably would not. These were all his choices. This is a group game. He isn't thinking of the group. Why should I think of him? Why should I go out of my way to change the group's tactics to appease a player who isn't doing the same?

[Findulidas]

I respectfully disagree about it being garbage. Whether or not it's the right choice in the game, players will likely be seeing the person outside of the game. Do I see it as a big deal? No, I don't. Would it bother me? No, it certainly wouldn't. Would I change tactics, on the table, if it were truly bothering a friend of mine on off the D&D table? absolutely I would. The friendship would be more important to me than the ideal tactics at a D&D table.

The attitude of "deal with it or leave" works fine in a place where you don't care about the other players, but if you do it's more complicated. I don't know the table, I don't know the player, and I don't know the situation.

There are other solutions as I mentioned though, ways to make everyone happier and solve the problem that would be way more effective in the long run.

You are right of course.

Also while fireballing is very satisfying there usually is atleast one more spell that can a good job at the same time. Hypnotic pattern, fear and loads others on the same level are just fine options.

[Arkhios]

As soon as my paladin reaches 7th level, I'll probably demand our sorcerer to blast away even if I was in the middle of the AoE (the joys of Aura of Warding, I hope). :smallbiggrin:

Hey, I know! Convince the paladin to change oath! (jk) :smallcool:

[Paeleus]

If the caster says "Screw it, the paladin shouldn't be in the middle of where I want to place my Fireball," then maybe the Paladin should just stand back and let the nooks storm the backline. It's ridiculous that someone thinks it's ok to "Help" the party by hurting the party, especially when the player has voiced a concern.

Isn't this supposed to be a team game??

[nickl_2000]

You missed my edit.

It's the luck of the dice. It's a game.
If he doesn't like it, maybe he should not place himself in the exact area of effect of where that fireball is going to be placed.... every single time. He dumped his Dex. He chose to ride a squishy mount into the fray. He placed himself and his mount in a position to get blasted.
Those were all his choices.
He can deal with it or go to his safe space.

Would I change tactics if it were bothering a friend of mine?
Depends. In this case, I probably would not. These were all his choices.

It's a difference of opinion, I would change tactics personally you wouldn't, that's cool. Either way the solution shouldn't be "deal with it" for either one of the PCs, it should be "How can we do things differently as a party so that you can do more damage and I don't have my mount turned into tonight's char broiled dinner?"

[DivisibleByZero]

If the caster says "Screw it, the paladin shouldn't be in the middle of where I want to place my Fireball," then maybe the Paladin should just stand back and let the nooks storm the backline. It's ridiculous that someone thinks it's ok to "Help" the party by hurting the party, especially when the player has voiced a concern.

Isn't this supposed to be a team game??

Yes, it is a team game.
So maybe the Paladin should think of the team and wait one single round so the caster can do his cool thing to benefit the team before the Pally rushes in and tries to do his less effective thing.
It certainly is a team game. But the Pally isn't playing it that way. He wants to be the Pally Show. If not, he'd have no problem waiting one danged second so the caster could make things easier for him.
He's making it harder on the entire team, and then complaining about it. He's complaining about a problem that he created.

"I min-maxed my character and then I ran into the exact situation where that min-maxing is a problem. Boo-friggin-hoo! You guys need to stop doing your thing so I can do mine!"
Cry me a damn river.

[Sir cryosin]

Am I the only one reading this and is reminded of Darkness from Konosuba. Hahaha.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Am I the only one reading this and is reminded of Darkness from Konosuba. Hahaha.

im here too buddy. EXPLOSION.

[Sir cryosin]

im here too buddy. EXPLOSION.

Hahaha

Sorry sorry on the topic hook the paladin up was a girl/boyfriend druid. Then after a bit convince him to switch to oath of the ancients. It won't stop him from taking damge but it will lessen the damge or you can muilticlass into Evoker wizard for sculpt spells.

[Millstone85]

Wait... Is the OP saying that he is counting on the paladin being in the AoE because it makes the damage rolls lucky?

[Goggalor]

Yes, it is a team game.
So maybe the Paladin should think of the team and wait one single round so the caster can do his cool thing to benefit the team before the Pally rushes in and tries to do his less effective thing.
It certainly is a team game. But the Pally isn't playing it that way. He wants to be the Pally Show. If not, he'd have no problem waiting one danged second so the caster could make things easier for him.
He's making it harder on the entire team, and then complaining about it. He's complaining about a problem that he created.

Is he, though? You are taking the approach that the paladin is charging in, without regard to the team and/or danger.

What if the DM is one that has the enemies focus on the nearest threat and swarm it (maybe he does that tactic with all enemies or only certain types)? In that case, the paladin is doing his job correctly by keeping the enemies not focused on the squishies.

Additionally, it is a team game, not a "best way to deal damage game". Dropping a fireball, grenade, whatever on your party may be good for putting out damage, but a reasonable character (not just person) would more than be justified in taking some sort of retaliation ("you drop a fireball on me, I drop my boot on your arse") in the game universe. Hell, even the laws of the land might look at the act unfavorably (much like if you shot arrows in a battle; you may have taken out quite a few enemies, but you killed your fair share of your side as well, which is hangable).

[DivisibleByZero]

Wait... Is the OP saying that he is counting on the paladin being in the AoE because it makes the damage rolls lucky?

That's kind of it, yes.
But that's putting the cart before the horse.
The group would have never figured out that they seemed to be luckier with damage rolls when the Pally was in it if the Pally wouldn't have continually rushed into the group of mooks over and over again in the first place.
Simply put, he's placing himself where the Fireball will do the most good on his own, and then complaining that he keeps getting blasted. If he weren't where that fireball would do the most good, then he wouldn't have been in it. If there were a better place to put it, it would have been put there instead.

[Vorok]

You could take a hit to your alignment if you keep it up. If that bit of dmg is worth the paladin's sacrifice, you're definitely not a good aligned character.

[Mortis_Elrod]

You could take a hit to your alignment if you keep it up. If that bit of dmg is worth the paladin's sacrifice, you're definitely not a good aligned character.

Its not like the paladin is DYING everytime right? its like he's tired of paying for a new horse and taking fire damage. Sounds like reasonable in character complaints yes, but my fireball happy sorcerer would still explode him. I'll pay him for the horse or some fire resistant item later, but he's my lucky charm and i need him IN THERE.

[NecessaryWeevil]

That's kind of it, yes.
But that's putting the cart before the horse.
The group would have never figured out that they seemed to be luckier with damage rolls when the Pally was in it if the Pally wouldn't have continually rushed into the group of mooks over and over again in the first place.
Simply put, he's placing himself where the Fireball will do the most good on his own, and then complaining that he keeps getting blasted. If he weren't where that fireball would do the most good, then he wouldn't have been in it. If there were a better place to put it, it would have been put there instead.

Where is the best place for a fireball? In the middle of a group of mooks.
Where is it the tank's job to be? In the middle of a group of mooks.

If the paladin WEREN'T there, there's a good chance the mooks would be somewhere else. Like, for example, standing in front of the sorceror planting a sword in his/her chest.

Even in the occasional case where both the caster and tank beat the mooks in initiative, I don't think 5E's Ready mechanics let the paladin say, "I wait until the fireball is cast, then I rush in and attack." He could run in, yes, but I don't believe he gets to also attack. He'd just have to rush in and stand there. In which YOU are forcing HIM to play suboptimally (or get fried).

[jaappleton]

Where is the best place for a fireball? In the middle of a group of mooks.
Where is it the tank's job to be? In the middle of a group of mooks.

If the paladin WEREN'T there, there's a good chance the mooks would be somewhere else. Like, for example, standing in front of the sorceror planting a sword in his/her chest.

If the Paladin isn't in the middle to be the target of Fireball, he's not really doing his job. He's forsaking his Oath!

HE SHOULD DROP IN ALIGNMENT! Oathbreaker! :smalltongue:

[DivisibleByZero]

Where is the best place for a fireball? In the middle of a group of mooks.
Where is it the tank's job to be? In the middle of a group of mooks.

If the paladin WEREN'T there, there's a good chance the mooks would be somewhere else. Like, for example, standing in front of the sorceror planting a sword in his/her chest.

So what is he complaining about then?
Either he's creating the situation and then complaining about it, or he's doing his job and complaining about it.

[NecessaryWeevil]

The "situation" he's creating is the caster not being dead!

[NecroDancer]

If the Paladin isn't in the middle to be the target of Fireball, he's not really doing his job. He's forsaking his Oath!

HE SHOULD DROP IN ALIGNMENT! Oathbreaker! :smalltongue:

"Oath of Assisted Combustion"

1st (and last) tenet: you must take fire damage whenever possible

[SirTodd]

...
It is considered PvP to fireball anyone in the group.
Last wizard who did that in our group nearly caused a TPK.
Now we just kill such fools as soon as we can.

[Sigreid]

I respectfully disagree about it being garbage. Whether or not it's the right choice in the game, players will likely be seeing the person outside of the game. Do I see it as a big deal? No, I don't. Would it bother me? No, it certainly wouldn't. Would I change tactics, on the table, if it were truly bothering a friend of mine on off the D&D table? absolutely I would. The friendship would be more important to me than the ideal tactics at a D&D table.

The attitude of "deal with it or leave" works fine in a place where you don't care about the other players, but if you do it's more complicated. I don't know the table, I don't know the player, and I don't know the situation.

There are other solutions as I mentioned though, ways to make everyone happier and solve the problem that would be way more effective in the long run.

I've been assuming everyone saying fireball the paladin is teasing.

[lunaticfringe]

The answer to this question is always yes. 79.63% of Paladin players are the scum of the earth and must be purged.

[jaappleton]

I love everything about this topic.

[RazorChain]

You could take a hit to your alignment if you keep it up. If that bit of dmg is worth the paladin's sacrifice, you're definitely not a good aligned character.

A hit to alignment? Who cares...it's not like the fireball caster is the Paladin so his alignment is mostly irrelevant.

On the other hand there is no such thing as hits to alignment...going from good to neutral just means more freedom from moral quandaries.

[MrStabby]

...
It is considered PvP to fireball anyone in the group.
Last wizard who did that in our group nearly caused a TPK.
Now we just kill such fools as soon as we can.

I would run with this. If you fireball the paladin the paladin should feel free to smite you. Paladin has dumped dex so you should be ahead of them in initiative enough times that you still get to play with your spell. Take the alert feat if you need to.

[Millstone85]

The group would have never figured out that they seemed to be luckier with damage rolls when the Pally was in it if the Pally wouldn't have continually rushed into the group of mooks over and over again in the first place.
he's creating the situation and then complaining about itEven if we assume that he made the mistake of engaging the enemy in melee too soon, forcing the casters to either waste their prepared AoE spells or throw them near him, and that's how he got to be regarded as a lucky charm... Should he really accept that new role and keep on rushing the enemy?

[krunchyfrogg]

Tell him it's for the greater good.
<3









<3

[nickl_2000]

I would run with this. If you fireball the paladin the paladin should feel free to smite you. Paladin has dumped dex so you should be ahead of them in initiative enough times that you still get to play with your spell. Take the alert feat if you need to.

It would also be very easy to do a delayed action in casting the fireball until the Paladin is out of range. Then the paladin can take a disengage, run like ***, and let you roast the baddies.

[DivisibleByZero]

Well, would you rather encourage the meatshield to stay close to the casters rather than keeping foes away from them?

He can't have his cake and eat it, too.
If he wants to stand in the middle of a large group of enemies so that he can show off his toys, that's his choice. But that means that the casters now have a good reason to show off theirs, because he gathered a bunch of enemies up.
If he wants to play with his toys, then other people should get to play with theirs.
Creating an ideal situation for yourself, which just also happens to create an ideal situation for the casters, means that everyone gets to play with their toys. If he doesn't want them to play with theirs, then he needs to be more selective about how he plays with his. Choose that guy over there on the right, not that big group of guys on the left.
You can't create a shooting gallery and then complain that people start shooting.

[Cybren]

You missed my edit.

It's the luck of the dice. It's a game.
If he doesn't like it, maybe he should not place himself in the exact area of effect of where that fireball is going to be placed.... every single time. He dumped his Dex. He chose to ride a squishy mount into the fray. He placed himself and his mount in a position to get blasted.
Those were all his choices.
He can deal with it or go to his safe space.

Would I change tactics if it were bothering a friend of mine?
Depends. In this case, I probably would not. These were all his choices. This is a group game. He isn't thinking of the group. Why should I think of him? Why should I go out of my way to change the group's tactics to appease a player who isn't doing the same?

This is like, the definition of metagame. Also: being an exceptionally bad friend.

[DivisibleByZero]

This is like, the definition of metagame. Also: being an exceptionally bad friend.

No. It's the Paladin rushing in and get surrounded (which is actually doing his job in some sense) because he wants to use his toys, and then complaining about other people using their own toys.
He wants to play with his own toys, but he doesn't want to let the casters play with theirs, even though he created a great situation for them do do so, and them doing so would help a lot more than his couple of attacks would.
He's being selfish.

[Cybren]

No. It's the Paladin rushing in and get surrounded (which is actually doing his job in some sense) because he wants to use his toys, and then complaining about other people using their own toys.
He wants to play with his own toys, but he doesn't want to let the casters play with theirs, even though he created a great situation for them do do so, and them doing so would help a lot more than his couple of attacks would.
He's being selfish.

1)
"you should be fine being engulfed in fire and nearly killed because that's playing with a team" is nonsense metagaming. Why is it reasonable to expect a person, that lives and breathes and exists with the game world, to be okay with being fireballed? That's ridiculous, and saying "Well you have this much HP and the fireball deals that much damage..." is exactly metagaming. Not that metagaming is intrinsically bad, but it is in this case.

2) framing his as "playing with toys" is juvenile both in the literal sense of "you're equating it with the juvenile activity of playing with toys when in fact it's being a respectful friend", but also because it assumes that the wizard is somehow entitled to fireball things. He's not. Fireballing your friend, sacrificing them so you can overcome an enemy, that's by definition selfish.

[DivisibleByZero]

If the Paladin were not being selfish, he would realize that the Fireball is much more effective than his two attacks are, and he would wait a moment before standing in that place.
Or he would gather them up like a good tank, and then Disengage so that the caster could do his *vastly more effective* thing, and then charge back in.
If he's standing there so he can do his thing, and complaining when everyone else does their thing, he's being selfish.

[MrStabby]

If he wants to play with his toys, then other people should get to play with theirs.
Creating an ideal situation for yourself, which just also happens to create an ideal situation for the casters, means that everyone gets to play with their toys. If he doesn't want them to play with theirs, then he needs to be more selective about how he plays with his. Choose that guy over there on the right, not that big group of guys on the left.
You can't create a shooting gallery and then complain that people start shooting.

Hitting the caster with a high level smite certainly sounds like the most attractive use of the Paladin's toys in this circumstance. If a character gets to level 5 knowing they are in a party with one or more melee fighters and isn't happy not casting fireball at every opportunity then they shouldn't pick fireball as a spell. There is no shortage of other good third level spells. Telling other players to mot play melee classes or else you will fireball them isn't being smart, it isn't being reasonable it is just being a ****.

[Matrix_Walker]

In our group we often need every bit of extra damage so high damage roles are VERY valuable.

However I've noticed a trend, whenever we cast fireball and the paladin is within it's AoE the fireball deals way more damage than normal (like 10 extra points). This has happened multiple times to the point where I'm CONVINCED that the dice are extra lucky if the the paladin is a victim of friendly fire. This trend also occurs with other AoE spells like cone of cold.

Now our paladin doesn't like being fireballed (mainly because he dumped dexterity and his horse tends to be turned to BBQ) and wants us to stop fireballing him. However the math doesn't lie and we need every bit of extra damage. How can I convince the paladin's player to let us fireball him to appease the dice gods?

First, you must accept that the Paladin's presence is not having any effect on the damage roll.

Obviously, the paladin does not like to be fireballed... Just don't.

[Matrix_Walker]

If the Paladin were not being selfish, he would realize that the Fireball is much more effective than his two attacks are, and he would wait a moment before standing in that place.
Or he would gather them up like a good tank, and then Disengage so that the caster could do his *vastly more effective* thing, and then charge back in.
If he's standing there so he can do his thing, and complaining when everyone else does their thing, he's being selfish.

Sounds more like the OP wants to contrive the situation to ensure the Paladin IS in the area, because they are implying it impacts die rolls. How are you gathering that the Paladin is being selfish when there have been no other tactical observations?

[DivisibleByZero]

I liken this to MMO Kiters.
They think their thing is awesome, and they never shut up about how awesome they are and how much DPS they can do, and how no one ever kills anything when they're around.
The fact is that everyone hates them because they aggro everything in a mile radius and kite it around and no one kills anything because no one can get any attacks in because the mobs are chasing the garbage Kiter.

Your Paladin here is the melee version. He's selfish. If he weren't, he'd understand how to avoid the thing he hates.

[Cybren]

I liken this to MMO Kiters.
They think their thing is awesome, and they never shut up about how awesome they are and how much DPS they can do, and how no one ever kills anything when they're around.
The fact is that everyone hates them because they aggro everything in a mile radius and kite it around and no one kills anything because no one can get any attacks in because the mobs are chasing the garbage Kiter.

Your Paladin here is the melee version. He's selfish. If he weren't, he'd understand how to avoid the thing he hates.

no, everyone hates the guy that fireballs his allies intentionally.

[Matrix_Walker]

Yes, it is a team game.
So maybe the Paladin should think of the team and wait one single round so the caster can do his cool thing to benefit the team before the Pally rushes in and tries to do his less effective thing.
It certainly is a team game. But the Pally isn't playing it that way. He wants to be the Pally Show. If not, he'd have no problem waiting one danged second so the caster could make things easier for him.
He's making it harder on the entire team, and then complaining about it. He's complaining about a problem that he created.

"I min-maxed my character and then I ran into the exact situation where that min-maxing is a problem. Boo-friggin-hoo! You guys need to stop doing your thing so I can do mine!"
Cry me a damn river.

Who said anything about the first round? This could be several rounds into the combat, there is not context here to suggest otherwise. The caster may be waiting for the pally-spell-magnifier to get into position...

[DivisibleByZero]

Who said anything about the first round? This could be several rounds into the combat, there is not context here to suggest otherwise. The caster may be waiting for the pally-spell-magnifier to get into position...

Now they might be, yeah. But how did they find out that he was a pally-spell-magnifier in the first place? It all comes back to the Pally.

[Matrix_Walker]

Now they might be, yeah. But how did they find out that he was a pally-spell-magnifier in the first place? It all comes back to the Pally.

Unless the caster is habitually indiscriminate. Your responses all are working under an assumption that has no confirmation.

The only facts we have are that the Caster thinks his fireballs do more damage when another PC is taking the damage with the opponents, that the PC does not think it's fun, and that the OP wants him to put up with it anyway.

If the OP would like to have a discussion about educating his fellow party members in better tactics, then I'm all for it, but that's not what we've been asked about.

[Contrast]

Divisible doesn't go far enough - anyone playing a paladin obviously deserves what they're getting by tanking the parties theoretical DPS. All parties should be comprised solely of wizards and then they just use party funds to hire level 1 NPC fighters with targets on their back to run towards the enemy. :smallwink:

[Bloodcloud]

Wait... Is the OP saying that he is counting on the paladin being in the AoE because it makes the damage rolls lucky?

I believe the post is rather tongue in cheek yes.

[2D8HP]

Vaarsuvius: "It seems like a reasonable response to me. As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero...."

Blackwing: "whisper whisper whisper whisper whisper whisper."

Vaarsuvius: "..And that would be wrong."
:vaarsuvius:

[Waterdeep Merch]

I liken this to MMO Kiters.
They think their thing is awesome, and they never shut up about how awesome they are and how much DPS they can do, and how no one ever kills anything when they're around.
The fact is that everyone hates them because they aggro everything in a mile radius and kite it around and no one kills anything because no one can get any attacks in because the mobs are chasing the garbage Kiter.

Your Paladin here is the melee version. He's selfish. If he weren't, he'd understand how to avoid the thing he hates.

I counter with- if the paladin is the only one getting AoE'd, it's because he's the only melee character. If he's the only melee character, he's the only one who stands between the enemy melee characters and the squishy wizard that is casting fireball in the first place.

This isn't some kiter who would like to bore the rest of the party while he does his one thing, he's doing a job that needs doing. And the wizard throwing fireballs at his back is benefiting greatly from it. If the paladin stops tanking because the wizard wants to throw his gee whiz fireballs, then guess what happens next?

Which is all completely moot, because it's clear that the OP doesn't always hit his paladin friend (hence the belief that he's getting better numbers when he causes friendly fire). And other obvious logistical things, like how the wizard has better initiative and likely goes first in most fights (better incentive to have high dex, this paladin specifically dumped it), has access to dozens of other useful spells that aren't fireball, and can often shoot them in ways that don't hurt party members.

Back on topic-

Sometimes, it's preferable to risk some damage. It's a tactical choice. But if you want to do this regularly, try to get your paladin some kind of fire resistance. If you can buy a ring of fire resistance, that's ideal. In lieu of that, if you're the one causing the damage, pony up the funds for all the healing potions he's going to have to chug. Seems fair to me.

[Spiritchaser]

My first reaction is not to fireball... I mean, this is about working as a team...

Or is it? Maybe it's also about creating and resolving interpersonal conflicts that could never be allowed to exist in the real world

I'd say avoid that fireball when you can, but when everything is on the line, let fly.

Do what you can to help out with carving up the cooked horse flesh after the fact. Cook the stew yourself... Consider training with cullinary equipment, carry a spice kit with lots of rosemary.

[Squiddish]

DBZ, among the other glaring problems with your argument is the fact that the caster never has to hit me with the fireball. It mostly happens because he's too lazy to bother aiming. Other times it's because he forgets he has spells that aren't fireball.

[GorogIrongut]

I'm a fan of a slightly looser game. So pvp is allowed as I've found it balances out in the end. For every fireball thrown at the paladin, the paladin finds a way of getting back at the wizard. It's usually when you're in a dungeon and the party has no idea what's on the other side of the door. The paladin grapples the wizard and chucks him through the door. He shuts it and waits for any screaming.

Everybody's even. Everybody has fun. Everybody's on their toes and tries to make as well rounded of a character as possible.

The only time it's frowned upon is if another player is partly responsible for the death of a team mate... and in that case, said player is expected to find the most graphic way of committing hari kari as possible. To keep things even.

We enjoy it, but it might not be for everybody.

[Millstone85]

I believe the post is rather tongue in cheek yes.
EDIT: I was told that the tag wasn't obvious so I'll repeat, this is a purely sarcastic post.Oh sweet cheese and crackers...
What is this really about then? :smallannoyed:

[DivisibleByZero]

DBZ, among the other glaring problems with your argument is the fact that the caster never has to hit me with the fireball. It mostly happens because he's too lazy to bother aiming. Other times it's because he forgets he has spells that aren't fireball.

You're the Paladin?
You do realize that you are in complete control over whether or not your character is in a position that best suits where to place a fireball, right?

Wherever that place is, don't stand there.

[Matrix_Walker]

You're the Paladin?
You do realize that you are in complete control over whether or not your character is in a position that best suits where to place a fireball, right?

Wherever that place is, don't stand there.

I would think that would be near the opponents.

If a PC is fireballing party members indiscriminately when they could place the shot in such a way to avoid hitting allies, that is clearly a problem with the caster.

I'm astonished anyone can support the position of "I like hitting the ally because it definitely does more damage when he is included".

[KorvinStarmast]

Think outside the Box a bit.

Have your party cleric get the two platinum rings and cast warding bond on the Paladin.
Resistance helps.


Warding Bond
Components: V, S, M (a pair of platinum rings worth at least 50 gp each, which you and the target must wear for the duration) Duration: 1 hour
This spell wards a willing creature you touch and creates a mystic connection between you and the target until the spell ends. While the target is within 60 feet of you, it gains a +1 bonus to AC and saving throws, and it has resistance to all damage. Also, each time it takes damage, you take the same amount of damage. The spell ends if you drop to 0 hit points or if you and
the target become separated by more than 60 feet. It also ends if the spell is cast again on either of the connected creatures.

Keep the cleric well supplied with healing pots.

Alternatively, if as Squiddish says the Wizard player is just being sloppy, then Don't Tank for the Wizard for one fight. Let a few mooks through who knock wiz down to 0 HP, then heal him after the fight.
Do that once, to make a point.
After that, you guys need a serious lesson in team work: collectively.

[Millstone85]

Wherever that place is, don't stand there.Once the group has adopted the good-luck-charm logic, that place is pretty much wherever the paladin is standing. And by your logic, that's okay because the paladin's past actions made him appear as a good-luck charm.

But again, it turns out the OP was joking, so I don't know what the real problem, if any, even is.

[Demonslayer666]

You're the Paladin?
You do realize that you are in complete control over whether or not your character is in a position that best suits where to place a fireball, right?

Wherever that place is, don't stand there.

You're the mage?

You do realize that you are in complete control over the spell you cast, and where you place an AoE spell, right?

Wherever that place is, if it includes a party member, don't land it there.

[Vaz]

This is garbage.
He doesn't like it, so you probably shouldn't do it?

It's the luck of the dice. It's a game.
If he doesn't like it, maybe he should not place himself in the exact area of effect of where that fireball is going to be placed.... every single time. He dumped his Dex. He chose to ride a squishy mount into the fray. He placed himself and his mount in a position to get blasted.
Those were all his choices.
He can deal with it or go to his safe space.

'Hey guys, I'm the main tank/dps of the group but I can't do the job properly without the ******** sorcerer fireballing me, what do?'

"Kill him in sleep, rape and murder his family, salt the ****ing earth".

PSA; If anyone's not caught on yet, don't listen to DivisiblebyZero. Like, as a general rule, but especially here.

[Citan]

In our group we often need every bit of extra damage so high damage roles are VERY valuable.

However I've noticed a trend, whenever we cast fireball and the paladin is within it's AoE the fireball deals way more damage than normal (like 10 extra points). This has happened multiple times to the point where I'm CONVINCED that the dice are extra lucky if the the paladin is a victim of friendly fire. This trend also occurs with other AoE spells like cone of cold.

Now our paladin doesn't like being fireballed (mainly because he dumped dexterity and his horse tends to be turned to BBQ) and wants us to stop fireballing him. However the math doesn't lie and we need every bit of extra damage. How can I convince the paladin's player to let us fireball him to appease the dice gods?

EDIT: I was told that the tag wasn't obvious so I'll repeat, this is a purely sarcastic post.
Fireball him MWHAHAHAHAHA!

More seriously: fireball him, probably?
Confer Nick's post at the start of the thread.
Also convince him to take Shield Master, would help much. Or have someone from the party cast Protection from Energy. Or agree with DM to find a way to get a Nature Cleric NPC who would be dedicated to using Bless on Paladin along with its "grant resistance as reaction" ability.
Or have any Cleric cast Warding Bond (after all, he should not be the only one suffering for the group XD).
Or go on a quest to find a fire-resistant armor.
Or have him take Magic Initiate for 1/day Absorb Elements (unless this situation happens more often, in which case I understand him) or take any dip into Wizard or Druid (sad thing is MADness) to get it more often.
Worst case, just warn him early enough so he can unmount his ride and make it run towards safety (total DM houserule kingdom I'd say, otherwise too boring to set -Ready action and such- and still high risk -enemies could totally slay the horse that runs by them).
Etc etc...

Basically his reaction is totally legitimate, so until you found a viable and durable solution you should refrain from fireballing with him in the middle until it's really a desperate situation.
At the same time, I think it should be really not that difficult to find a working solution (as long as you DON'T take the Elemental Adept feat obviously XD).

Good luck ;)

'Hey guys, I'm the main tank/dps of the group but I can't do the job properly without the ******** sorcerer fireballing me, what do?'

"Kill him in sleep, rape and murder his family, salt the ****ing earth".

PSA; If anyone's not caught on yet, don't listen to DivisiblebyZero. Like, as a general rule, but especially here.
Agreed, a fortiori when reading this under... XD

No. It's the Paladin rushing in and get surrounded (which is actually doing his job in some sense) because he wants to use his toys, and then complaining about other people using their own toys.
He wants to play with his own toys, but he doesn't want to let the casters play with theirs, even though he created a great situation for them do do so, and them doing so would help a lot more than his couple of attacks would.
He's being selfish.
So, the guy is going into the melee, as fast as possible to create the front line as far as possible from the squishies, he's trying as hard as he can to aggro people to 1) limit the amount of attacks directed towards friends 2) improve the potential of any AOE... So basically he is risking his own life for the sake of the whole party...
And he's being selfish just because he basically asks his teammates to time their AOE to let him get to safety first?
I have no words to describe your mentality... XD
The most hilarious (or sad) part of your posts though is this...

Yes, it is a team game.
So maybe the Paladin should think of the team and wait one single round so the caster can do his cool thing to benefit the team before the Pally rushes in and tries to do his less effective thing.
It certainly is a team game. But the Pally isn't playing it that way. He wants to be the Pally Show. If not, he'd have no problem waiting one danged second so the caster could make things easier for him.
He's making it harder on the entire team, and then complaining about it. He's complaining about a problem that he created.

The OP didn't mention at all any problem of Pally "playing solo" or being otherwise self-centered. There are numerous situations in which, even if a player was actually careful, he could still end in a situation in which pulling away is difficult or outright impossible. Or just many situations in which in turn X the frontline situation seems under control by the melee ally and in turn Y **** happened and AOE becomes the seemingly best situation, without it being the fault of anyone...

[Corran]

....as long as you DON'T take the Elemental Adept feat obviously XD).

I see what you did there....

[furby076]

This is garbage.
He doesn't like it, so you probably shouldn't do it?

It's the luck of the dice. It's a game.
If he doesn't like it, maybe he should not place himself in the exact area of effect of where that fireball is going to be placed.... every single time. He dumped his Dex. He chose to ride a squishy mount into the fray. He placed himself and his mount in a position to get blasted.
Those were all his choices.
He can deal with it or go to his safe space.

Its very simple. If the paladin has to keep telling the wizard to stop attacking him. Then when it doesn't stop, the paladin has the right to retaliate. I would mop the floor with our spellcasters if they thought it was fun to keep blasting my character. That says nothing of the fact you are risking killing another players character...willfully and repeatedly. Find a new spell, or if you are a sorc, then shape spell

[furby076]

Yes, it is a team game.
So maybe the Paladin should think of the team and wait one single round so the caster can do his cool thing to benefit the team before the Pally rushes in and tries to do his less effective thing.
It certainly is a team game. But the Pally isn't playing it that way. He wants to be the Pally Show. If not, he'd have no problem waiting one danged second so the caster could make things easier for him.
He's making it harder on the entire team, and then complaining about it. He's complaining about a problem that he created.

"I min-maxed my character and then I ran into the exact situation where that min-maxing is a problem. Boo-friggin-hoo! You guys need to stop doing your thing so I can do mine!"
Cry me a damn river.
Or maybe the baddies decided to swarm the paladin. If the paladin wasnt there, maybe they would be spread out, or swarming the wizard. A good paladin shields the wizard. Honestly, if we were in the same group, after the second request, id let you experience, first hand, what nova feels like. Goodluck surviving that

[furby076]

This is like, the definition of metagame. Also: being an exceptionally bad friend.
Absolutely right. Who, in their right mind, would say "how about i napalm my friends?". Then which friend would say "no worries little buddy". Its metagaming, and being a jerk of a friend.

id just walk over to the wizard, and take a dump on him with my sword.

[furby076]

I liken this to MMO Kiters.
They think their thing is awesome, and they never shut up about how awesome they are and how much DPS they can do, and how no one ever kills anything when they're around.
The fact is that everyone hates them because they aggro everything in a mile radius and kite it around and no one kills anything because no one can get any attacks in because the mobs are chasing the garbage Kiter.

Your Paladin here is the melee version. He's selfish. If he weren't, he'd understand how to avoid the thing he hates.
What? Kiting is am incredibly important mmo skill. Heck, in WoW, with the blackwing instance, you needed like 5 great kiters to keep specific creatures off the rest of the raid.

Like the rest of your assessment, in this post, you are wrong

[Corran]

I will agree with everyone saying that fireballing the paladin is a bad idea.
Cast hypnotic pattern instead!
Fireball only deals damage, hypnotic patten will take away whole turns from the paladin.
Yes, the paladin has a better wis save, but that right there is your excuse!
Use heightened spell metamagic in secret (the DM secretly rolls the second roll; if the paladin argues, then it's between him and the DM, you are out of the loop; whistle.... also bribe the DM to not reveal what's really going on).

@Furby: Right next to ''reply with quote'' there is a similar symbol with an added ''+'', that will let you reply to more than one posts at the same time if you ''hit'' all the posts that you want to answer to with it.

[furby076]

I will agree with everyone saying that fireballing the paladin is a bad idea.
Cast hypnotic pattern instead!
Fireball only deals damage, hypnotic patten will take away whole turns from the paladin.
Yes, the paladin has a better wis save, but that right there is your excuse!
Use heightened spell metamagic in secret (the DM secretly rolls the second roll; if the paladin argues, then it's between him and the DM, you are out of the loop; whistle.... also bribe the DM to not reveal what's really going on).

@Furby: Right next to ''reply with quote'' there is a similar symbol with an added ''+'', that will let you reply to more than one posts at the same time if you ''hit'' all the posts that you want to answer to with it.


Sorry, normally i use multiquote...but on my tablet its hard for me to navigate, i will try in the future :)

[sir_argo]

Absolutely yes... even if there's no monsters around.

[SirTodd]

No. It's the Paladin rushing in and get surrounded (which is actually doing his job in some sense) because he wants to use his toys, and then complaining about other people using their own toys.
He wants to play with his own toys, but he doesn't want to let the casters play with theirs, even though he created a great situation for them do do so, and them doing so would help a lot more than his couple of attacks would.
He's being selfish.
~laughing~
So you shouldn't complain then when the rogue sneak attacks you from behind after your fireball. After all he wants to play with his toys too.

[Corran]

~laughing~
So you shouldn't complain then when the rogue sneak attacks you from behind after your fireball. After all he wants to play with his toys too.
Well, this is not the same thing. The rogue can still sneak attack enemies, as long as the paladin is within 5 feet of them. But if the wizard drops the paladin unconscious, and then it's the rogue's turn, then I guess the rogue would have every right to sneak attack the wizard in order to roll the sneak attack damage. Unless of course he had an inspiration point. Then the right thing would be to use it and attack the enemies for one more turn, before turning against the wizard.

ps: Though a smart rogue would just run the moment the paladin falls (or even before that).

[D.U.P.A.]

Friendly fire is never a good idea, only in extreme of cases, when they are surrounded by minions. Otherwise, most often enemies are more durable than PCs and unless there is no less that 4 enemies around the ally, provided they have no special resistances and high dexterity saves, then you should not even think about it. It ends badly 90% of times. Especially with classes like Paladin. Raging bear totem Barbarians and Monks with evasion can be a bit more acceptable, but still should be used with last resort. Wizard whose tools and toys are only a fireball is just a bad Wizard. If all you want is throw fireballs, you can go Sorcerer, Light Cleric or Fiend Warlock. With Sorcerer you can exclude your ally with safe spell metamagic regardless of bloodline.

[Mhl7]

If you are the Wizard: Blast the Paladin! Then explain to him that, thanks to your extensive knowledge of the arcane power, you now for sure that its rightful fury acts as a channeler for the power of the elemental plane of fire and without him being in the range of the fireball the same effect cannot be achieved. I suggest to explain all of this from the safety of your pre-cast fly spell, just in case.

If you are the Sorcerer: Blast the Paladin and use your high charisma to convince him that he was the wizard, not you! I suggest to wait till he gives you his back before casting the spell.

Also, make sure that the cleric keeps healing him up, so that you can enjoy burning him more and more.

Don't forget to ask your DM to enforce some sort of lingering injuries rule. The paladin will sure be terribly scarred by now from all those explosions. Repeatedly make fun of him for his hideous appearance. Bonus points if you convince the DM that he should also suffer a penalty to the Charisma because he is so ugly.

[Armored Walrus]

I think you should not only fireball the paladin when he's in a group of mooks, but if you happen to be higher in the initiative order than the paladin, you should ready a fireball, centered on the paladin, with a trigger of casting it whenever he engages with more than one enemy. You don't want a chance to do optimal damage to slip by just because you happen to be quicker on the draw.

[Sigreid]

I think you should not only fireball the paladin when he's in a group of mooks, but if you happen to be higher in the initiative order than the paladin, you should ready a fireball, centered on the paladin, with a trigger of casting it whenever he engages with more than one enemy. You don't want a chance to do optimal damage to slip by just because you happen to be quicker on the draw.

Since it's important to practice tactics, I recommend fireballing him when he's asleep as well.

Edit: is it just fireball that benefits? I think you need to test lightning bolt, cone of cold, Cloud Kill, etc.

[Ninja-Radish]

"Ray, when someone asks if you should Fireball the Paladin, you say YES!!"

[2D8HP]

To Fireball or not to Fireball?

When is Fireball ever not the answer?

Need a light? Fireball!


It's a little cold? Fireball!

Time to pay the bar tab? Fireball!

I think it's safe to infer that Fireball is always the answer.

When in doubt...

Fireball!

[GPS]

To Fireball or not to Fireball?

When is Fireball ever not the answer?

Need a light? Fireball!


It's a little cold? Fireball!

Time to pay the bar tab? Fireball!

I think it's safe to infer that Fireball is always the answer.

When in doubt...

Fireball!
I like this guy!

[Sigreid]

To Fireball or not to Fireball?

When is Fireball ever not the answer?

Need a light? Fireball!


It's a little cold? Fireball!

Time to pay the bar tab? Fireball!

I think it's safe to infer that Fireball is always the answer.

When in doubt...

Fireball!

There are few problems that cannot be solved through the liberal application of Fireball!

[NecroDancer]

There are few problems that cannot be solved through the liberal application of Fireball!

If you want to get fancy you can always try a lightning bolt.

[Squiddish]

Just a couple notes:
1. I've been on the receiving end of a hypnotic pattern before, but I now have immunity to charm and so does my horse (aura of devotion).
2. The wizard is fine, he's an evocations wizard. The light cleric is the problem.
3. He recently received a taste of his own medicine when he was caught in a cone of cold by a fleeing party member.

[psychopomp23]

I'm playing a Paladin in one of my games and I would totally let them fireball me if it meant killing off a bunch of baddies! FOR THE GREATER GOOD!

[Tetrasodium]

It depends.

can you get a large chunk of the baddies by targeting a few feet away? do that if so.. or is it a significant difference like getrting all three trolls instead of just one? burn him if so because those trolls could hurt more, esoecially if there is almost no chance for the paladin to fail the save.
is the paladin distracting some dangerous foes while giving you the chance to squash a group of mooks elsewhere?... burn the mooks & let the paladin deal with that nasty baddy for a couple turns?... burn those mooks & worry about the elemental/beholder/whatever laterwhen the paladin won't need to scrape you off the flat of a mook's mace.


A while back I was playing a moon druid who did wildshape:giant frog to swim down & investigate something shiny in the water. almost immediately two things happened, I was attacked by a water elemental-like "It's not an elemental" & a bunch of cultists rushed out from some rocks further down the lakeshore.

Being in an amphibious form capable of breathing air or water equally well, the most dangerous part of the not an elemental was nullified & my ability to heal myself was able to pretty trivially keep up with the rather poor damage it was doing. so poor that I tried to attack it back more often by far than heal myself. In spite of the fact that I was saying that I'm doing fine & not really worried, about half the group broke off the mooks (including a barbearian) to shoot arrows at the thing trying to drown my amphibious giant toad. When it was over, I think I burned one..maybe... two first level spell slots healing my giant toad form I just dropped to full hp base form so I could cast a bunch of spells healing the squishies & such. There are plenty f times when the best thing someone in a party can do is to ignore a dangerous looking situation or to make one individual party member's life momentarily difficult.

Moral of the st

[Pex]

I will agree with everyone saying that fireballing the paladin is a bad idea.
Cast hypnotic pattern instead!
Fireball only deals damage, hypnotic patten will take away whole turns from the paladin.
Yes, the paladin has a better wis save, but that right there is your excuse!
Use heightened spell metamagic in secret (the DM secretly rolls the second roll; if the paladin argues, then it's between him and the DM, you are out of the loop; whistle.... also bribe the DM to not reveal what's really going on).

@Furby: Right next to ''reply with quote'' there is a similar symbol with an added ''+'', that will let you reply to more than one posts at the same time if you ''hit'' all the posts that you want to answer to with it.

If the paladin is at least a 7th level Oath of Devotion this tactic will work quite well.

[furby076]

There are few problems that cannot be solved through the liberal application of Fireball!

Can you twin spell a fireball? How about hightened fireball followed by quicken fireball

[Tanarii]

This makes me want to play a Tiefling Barbarian with Shield Master in a party full of Fireball crazy casters. Reckless attack to encourage them to gang up on you, Dex 14 and SM for +4 to save, advantage from Danger Sense, Hellish Resistance for 1/2 damage. Sounds like fun in the sun balls of fire.

[Kane0]

This makes me want to play a Tiefling Barbarian with Shield Master in a party full of Fireball crazy casters. Reckless attack to encourage them to gang up on you, Dex 14 and SM for +4 to save, advantage from Danger Sense, Hellish Resistance for 1/2 damage. Sounds like fun in the sun balls of fire.

Feral Tiefling for a bit of extra dex? Throw in some rogue even?

[JellyPooga]

no, everyone hates the guy that fireballs his allies intentionally.

The Rogue doesn't. This is also why Rogues are one of the best Tank Classes. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are fantastic Tanking abilities, not to mention their higher OA threat due to Sneak Attack.

[Citan]

This makes me want to play a Tiefling Barbarian with Shield Master in a party full of Fireball crazy casters. Reckless attack to encourage them to gang up on you, Dex 14 and SM for +4 to save, advantage from Danger Sense, Hellish Resistance for 1/2 damage. Sounds like fun in the sun balls of fire.
Yeah, you could also have a Cleric Bless you for extra chance to succeed. And honestly I feel this would work even better on a mix Barbarian / Paladin or Barbarian / Rogue or Paladin / Rogue, DEX based.
(20 DEX + 2 + proficiency + 1d4)*2 (advantage), not accounting for potential Aura of Protection, should be enough to ensure you never sustain a hit. ;)

I also made an homebrew which part of the core concept revolved about energy absorption to reuse it on the fly in different ways. ;)

The Rogue doesn't. This is also why Rogues are one of the best Tank Classes. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are fantastic Tanking abilities, not to mention their higher OA threat due to Sneak Attack.
On our particular topic though, Rogue is inferior to Barbarian on aggro capability (Extra Attack = 2 chances to Grapple, Reckless Attack and lesser single-attack damage means more reason to attack you), but has a much better resistance (since Evasion does not require a reaction).

That's why I'd suggest a Barbarian / Rogue build or even a Paladin / Rogue build (for those like me that prefer a good flat bonus to a reroll).
Barbarian 7 / Rogue 7 has everything we need and is fairly competent all-around: Expertise to circumvent a lower STR, great Unarmored Defense, Shield Master & Danger Sense to help trigger Evasion, and Feral Instinct to help be the first to act (better chance of positioning as needed)... :)

Another build, although fairly MAD, could be Barbarian 2 / Rogue 7 / Ancients Paladin 7: you end with permanent resistance to magic damage and your chance to avoid DEX effects goes through the roof: bad thing is that MADness requires some sacrifice if you want to max your Dex saves. But it would work well still. As a half-elf or human, you could start Paladin with 14 in STR, CON, 16 CHA, 15 DEX and take Resilient: DEX later. You don't care about heavy armor malus since you want to aggro anyways, and you can max DEX afterwards.

[Tanarii]

The Rogue doesn't. This is also why Rogues are one of the best Tank Classes. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are fantastic Tanking abilities, not to mention their higher OA threat due to Sneak Attack.
Uncanny Dodge only works once per round. And IMX Rogues usually (but not always) lack AC and HPs. And while people love to go on about OA Sneak Attacks, they almost never actually occur during play. Edit: Not to mention, if you're using Uncanny Dodge, you're not making any OAs anyway.

[2D8HP]

.


?


.


.


:biggrin:

I just love that you guys are discussing optimal builds for getting Fireballed by someone in your own party.

That's team spirit!

[Tetrasodium]

:biggrin:

I just love that you guys are discussing optimal builds for getting Fireballed by someone in your own party.

That's team spirit!

Throw in mounted combatant on the rogue/barbarian/etc & a moon druid with sentinel acting as a mount & things get even more sticky in the fray :D add mobile to the druid & they both mostly get the benefit of mobil

[nickl_2000]

:biggrin:

I just love that you guys are discussing optimal builds for getting Fireballed by someone in your own party.

That's team spirit!

That really is an interesting theory for a party composition. 1 PC as a meat shield that does everything to attract attention and draw enemies to them, 1 PC to keep them standing with healing, and the rest of the PCs are AoE blasters that nuke everything around the "bait" PC.


A Dragonborn/Tiefling Bearbarian with resilient Dex and Shield Mastery would be a pretty decent build for this

[JellyPooga]

Uncanny Dodge only works once per round. And IMX Rogues usually (but not always) lack AC and HPs. And while people love to go on about OA Sneak Attacks, they almost never actually occur during play. Edit: Not to mention, if you're using Uncanny Dodge, you're not making any OAs anyway.

Typically, yes, I agree. However, you can build a Rogue to Tank; Sentinel, high Con (Hill Dwarf is great for this), if you're attacked you have UD, if they attack someone else you Sneak Attack. Ad Citan says Barbarian/Rogue or Pally/Rogue really makes for the best Tank, but single Clasd can do it really quite admirably; it juat takes a slightly different approach to the "usual" Rogue.

[Citan]

Uncanny Dodge only works once per round. And IMX Rogues usually (but not always) lack AC and HPs. And while people love to go on about OA Sneak Attacks, they almost never actually occur during play. Edit: Not to mention, if you're using Uncanny Dodge, you're not making any OAs anyway.
You missed the point: Rogue should not care at all about using Uncanny Dodge against a Fireball since high DEX + proficiency should be enough to make the save, at which instant Evasion is triggered without any interaction needed. :)
Even more so on a Rogue with shield proficiency gained from however manner and Shield Master feat (although it's kind of a heavy investment just for that, arguably a 2-level dip in Barbarian would be much better in that regard). ;)

[DivisibleByZero]

You missed the point: Rogue should not care at all about using Uncanny Dodge against a Fireball since high DEX + proficiency should be enough to make the save, at which instant Evasion is triggered without any interaction needed. :)

Uncanny Dodge works against attacks, not saves. A Fireball is not an attack for these purposes, because there is no attack roll.
If an attack roll hits you, you can use Uncanny Dodge.
If you get targeted with a saving throw, Uncanny Dodge is useless.
So not only should the Rogue "not care" about Uncanny Dodge against a Fireball, he can't even use it if he wanted to.

[Sigreid]

Uncanny Dodge works against attacks, not saves. A Fireball is not an attack for these purposes, because there is no attack roll.
If an attack roll hits you, you can use Uncanny Dodge.
If you get targeted with a saving throw, Uncanny Dodge is useless.
So not only should the Rogue "not care" about Uncanny Dodge against a Fireball, he can't even use it if he wanted to.

You're talking uncanny dodge, others are talking evasion.

[DivisibleByZero]

You're talking uncanny dodge, others are talking evasion.

Nope. I'm responding to someone that's talking about Uncanny Dodge.


You missed the point: Rogue should not care at all about using Uncanny Dodge against a Fireball
Uncanny Dodge works against attacks, not saves.

[Tanarii]

You missed the point: Rogue should not care at all about using Uncanny Dodge against a Fireball since high DEX + proficiency should be enough to make the save, at which instant Evasion is triggered without any interaction needed. :)I didn't miss the point. The point being made was Uncanny Dodge makes Rogues a good tank.


Typically, yes, I agree. However, you can build a Rogue to Tank; Sentinel, high Con (Hill Dwarf is great for this), if you're attacked you have UD, if they attack someone else you Sneak Attack. Ad Citan says Barbarian/Rogue or Pally/Rogue really makes for the best Tank, but single Clasd can do it really quite admirably; it juat takes a slightly different approach to the "usual" Rogue.okay I'll concede if you want to make a Tank-Rogue, it's certainly possible, at least on the defensive front. Especially with multiclassing. On the offensive front, ie giving enemies motivation to attack, they might be lacking. Although obviously not if you multiclass Barbarian and start using Reckless Attack a whole bunch.

In fact, I already have a "Tomb Raider" (not that kind) Barbarian / Rogue build I've got in reserve for if I ever go back to playing AL instead of DMing. But it doesn't get UD until 10 or evasion until 12, which is a bit late for dealing with party allies fireballing at 5th.

Of course, all the key components for that come online at level 4 Barbarian. The rogue stuff is just gravy, turning those saves from 1/4 damage (avg 7 hit points of damage) to 0 damage.
Hellish Resistance - Racial
Dex 14 - 1st
Danger Sense - 2nd
Shield Master - 4th


That really is an interesting theory for a party composition. 1 PC as a meat shield that does everything to attract attention and draw enemies to them, 1 PC to keep them standing with healing, and the rest of the PCs are AoE blasters that nuke everything around the "bait" PC.Or 2 PCs. 1 Wolf Barbarian (Dex 14, Danger Sense, Shield Master) providing advantage to his adjacent ally, and one Rogue (or Monk) with high Dex save plus Evasion (at 7th) plus high mobility / escape to actually move out of the blast radius. That way you can form a psuedo "front line" and not rely on enemies deciding not to bypass the solo guy out front just to go after the magical artillery.

[Sigreid]

Nope. I'm responding to someone that's talking about Uncanny Dodge.

I understanf, but the whole badly talked idea bois down to evasion deals with the fireball and uncanny dodge helps with tanking. It's just a bit of a confusing mess the way its been being worded.

[DivisibleByZero]

I understanf, but the whole badly talked idea bois down to evasion deals with the fireball and uncanny dodge helps with tanking. It's just a bit of a confusing mess the way its been being worded.

How is that my problem?
Someone implied that you could Uncanny Dodge a Fireball.
I corrected them. Nothing more.
If you want to discuss the merits of Uncanny Dodge and/or Evasion with someone, why don't you discuss it with the people that are already discussing it, instead of trying to find flaws in my post?
Carry on.

[Crusher]

Have you considered finding the right magic item, like a wand of fireballs or a necklace of missiles, that would allow the Paladin to fireball himself? I think there'd be value in skipping the middle-man and he might object less if he was the one who got to inflict the damage.

[Citan]

Uncanny Dodge works against attacks, not saves. A Fireball is not an attack for these purposes, because there is no attack roll.
If an attack roll hits you, you can use Uncanny Dodge.
If you get targeted with a saving throw, Uncanny Dodge is useless.
So not only should the Rogue "not care" about Uncanny Dodge against a Fireball, he can't even use it if he wanted to.

Well, thanks for reminding something that everyone already knows. XD

How is that my problem?
Someone implied that you could Uncanny Dodge a Fireball.
I corrected them. Nothing more.
If you want to discuss the merits of Uncanny Dodge and/or Evasion with someone, why don't you discuss it with the people that are already discussing it, instead of trying to find flaws in my post?
Carry on.
By the way, I didn't imply anything, so your post was superfluous but well, same as Tanarii, you didn't take context into account... Still I admit my wording was ambiguous on that one. ^^
Ah well, rules reminder is always useful in some way. :)


I didn't miss the point. The point being made was Uncanny Dodge makes Rogues a good tank.

The point was made in the context of the present thread, which is all about Fireball friendly fire, when to make it consciously and how to mitigate it for the recipient.
So you missed the point, because in that context Uncanny Dodge is irrelevant as I pointed out (which DivisibleByZero gently stressed further by reviewing the rules in which it applies).

[Tanarii]

The point was made in the context of the present thread, which is all about Fireball friendly fire, when to make it consciously and how to mitigate it for the recipient.
So you missed the point, because in that context Uncanny Dodge is irrelevant as I pointed out (which DivisibleByZero gently stressed further by reviewing the rules in which it applies).
I suggest you go reread the post by JellyPooga, that I responded to, which you then quoted me telling me I missed the point. The point being made in his post was that Uncanny Dodge makes Rogues a good tank. I didn't miss any points. You did when you jumped in to 'correct' me, and inform me that I missed the point.