Fly-by Attack and Grapple

[Max Caysey]

Hi

I'm writing to ask about whether or not its possible for my large eagle to pick up an opponent during fly-by attack if the eagle succeeded in a grapple?

Cheers!!!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Hi

I'm writing to ask about whether or not its possible for my large eagle to pick up an opponent during fly-by attack if the eagle succeeded in a grapple?

Cheers!!!

No. One needs to make a separate grapple check to force a grapples enemy to move with it, so cannot do so with Fly-By as it only gives you one attack (which you use to initiate the grapple).

[Necroticplague]

Hi

I'm writing to ask about whether or not its possible for my large eagle to pick up an opponent during fly-by attack if the eagle succeeded in a grapple?

Cheers!!!

Nope. Read the consequences of grappling a bit more closely:

Grappling Consequences

While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited.
No Threatened Squares

You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.
No Dexterity Bonus

You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)
No Movement

You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check (see below) to move while grappling.

[Hiro Quester]

It could, if it was huge and had the Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch) feat. A giant roc uses it to swoop in snatch up prey and then fly off.

Flyby attack lets you make the standard action in the middle of a move action. And it would be an improved grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab) attack, not a standard grapple. Improved grab enables the creature pulls the grappled creature into its space (and then could fly off with it or drag it around):


When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

But you would have to make your eagle one size greater to even quality for the snatch feat. It requires Huge size.

[Max Caysey]

Thank you for the answers...

A followup question.

Lets say I dont want to advance it to huge size... And wanted to still do the pick-up/ carry the oponent aways thing, would it then be correct to allow this:


You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. ?

So how many grapple checks would my large size eagle have to make to fly off with the oponent in this fasion?

As I see it, I can do a standard action in the middle of my move (fly-by), where I initiate a grapple, if that is successful the eagle samkes an opposed grapple check as a free action. In the above quote, it says a successful grapple allows movement...

Would it not be possible? What am I missing?

[Necroticplague]

So how many grapple checks would my large size eagle have to make to fly off with the oponent in this fasion?

As I see it, I can do a standard action in the middle of my move (fly-by), where I initiate a grapple, if that is successful the eagle samkes an opposed grapple check as a free action. In the above quote, it says a successful grapple allows movement...

Would it not be possible? What am I missing?

You seem to be missing the part you, oddly enough, just quoted. Moving half your speed in a grapple is a standard action that requires you to make a grapple check vs. everyone else in the grapple.


You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple. ?
So carrying an opponent off like that requires 2 standard actions: one to initiate the grapple, one to move half your speed (carrying the unwitting person along with you). If you wanted to do this more efficiently, look for some way to give your eagle Improved Grab. The Scorpion's Grasp feat would allow for this tactic.

[Max Caysey]

You seem to be missing the part you, oddly enough, just quoted. Moving half your speed in a grapple is a standard action that requires you to make a grapple check vs. everyone else in the grapple.


So carrying an opponent off like that requires 2 standard actions: one to initiate the grapple, one to move half your speed (carrying the unwitting person along with you). If you wanted to do this more efficiently, look for some way to give your eagle Improved Grab. The Scorpion's Grasp feat would allow for this tactic.

Ahh... ok so I cant combine the standard action I get in the middle of my movement in fly-by attack with this? Thus spending my standard action on it?

Its quite feat intisive to get Scorpion's Grasp for an eagle, without giving it class levels. (I could just give it since I'm the DM, but I try to do things by the books)

Would the Scorpion's Grasp feat allow for this (carrying my target away) during the fly-by, by taking -20 on the first grapple check?

[Crake]

if you take the snatch feat, then you can take -20 on the grapple check to only use one limb to grapple, and to have you yourself not be treated as grappled, allowing you to continue moving without having to make a grapple check, and take your opponent along with you. If you get the multisnatch feat, the penalty is reduced to -10 as well, which should still be doable for a creature that large and that strong.

[Max Caysey]

Thank you all again for your help and suggestions. I feel I need to explain the situation, so as to also get your opinion on whether or not I should just flat out give the creature the feats needed or you think otherwise.

The actual scenario is in underdark, where my players is currently engaged in a war against a drow settlement of some military power. They have invaded some swarven territory and the player has currently deployed a small battle-group to help retake the underground areas (mines, streams, etc.). Some defensive points have been retaken and currently the they hold a dwarven tower overseeing a cathedral (as in a huge cavern, not actual church). My players army IDAF (International Dwarven Assistance Force) is lead by a General and who is currently in the tower. Last battle he lead from the towers flat roof. Now I want to send in a few squadrons of Lolth-touched, war-beast deep bats (Sinister), to go in and take some of the men (preferably the general) randomly, and carry them back to the drow army base for interrogations and torture, thus setting up the opportunity for a insertions of his special forces rogues to conduct a hostige rescue mission (simultaneously gaining valuable intel for the final attack of the drow military encampment.)

So I will be advancing to 8HD and adding two templates to the bats. War-Beast (MM2, 219) and Lolth-touched (MM4, 92). I thus need the bats to be able to pick up soldiers and fly on... Whats the best way of doing that? Should I just give them the feats and not care about the rules or should I find some other way..? Whats your thoughts?

Again thanks!

Edit: I mentioned eagle just as a generic bird for the fly-by/grapple understanding!

[Hiro Quester]

You are the DM, so how much you stretch the rules is kind of up to you.

One way to do this would be to give the bats the Improved Grab special ability. Then they can fly in, make an attack with a claw. If a claw attack is successful, then they can make a grapple attempt to secure a hold. If successful, they pull the grappled humanoid into their space. But they could not fly away, since they also count as grappled.

They can only count as not themselves grappled (and fly away) if they take -20 on the grapple check, though. Only then they could try to fly off.

A fair house-rule might be that a modified variant of snatching (equivalent to the monster feat that requires Huge size) counts as one of the tricks they learned while being trained as War Beasts. Trade out a different monster feat they would normally have, for balance.

For instance, you could rule that their smaller size warrants a slightly more difficult variant of snatch. For instance, if they hit with both claws and win each of two opposed grapple checks, then the humanoid counts as pinned, and they could fly away with them (if the humanoid counts as a light load for them, and if they had movement left that round due to fly-by attack).

[Necroticplague]

Ahh... ok so I cant combine the standard action I get in the middle of my movement in fly-by attack with this? Thus spending my standard action on it?
In order to move someone in a grapple, you have to be in a grapple with them to start with. It's a standard action to start the grapple in the first place. So unless you have extra standard actions, you don't have enough to actions to start the grapple, then take the standard to move it, in one turn. Moving someone as a standard is a separate standard action from starting a grapple as a standard action.


Would the Scorpion's Grasp feat allow for this (carrying my target away) during the fly-by, by taking -20 on the first grapple check?

Yes. By taking the -20, you aren't considered grappled, and can thus move freely.

[Rebel7284]

There is always the Animal Growth spell. The bats can have the Snatch feat and only be able to use it when enlarged, which conveniently you can arrange.

[ViperMagnum357]

Improved grab or Snatch/Improved Snatch allow you to pick up opponents and carry them, Multi Snatch allows you to do so with each claw and bite attack, and Multigrab/Improved Multigrab allows you to do the same while not being considered grappled yourself, and taking no penalties. Combined with Flyby Attack, this allows really big monsters like dragons to do the classics, swooping in and grabbing multiple opponents at once, disabling them without breaking stride-and making sure the poor schmuck in its jaws gets no saving throw versus the breath weapon on the following round.

I think those six feats should be an auto-include for any dragon that is Gargantuan, Colossal, or Colossal+.

[Max Caysey]

Thanks for the great answers.

I have come to the conclusion (I think), that I will simply give the Deep Bats Improved Grapple and Scorpion's Grasp. Due to my anvancement and application of two templates it has 4 feats. So, I'm only ignoring the prerequisite from Improved Grapple (Improved Unarmed Attack), which, by the way, I feel is completely stupid, so I think that might be the way to go...

Thank you all with helping explain the grapple/ fly-by attack interaction and the great suggestions for how to wing it (pun intended:smallbiggrin:)!

[Hiro Quester]

I'm only ignoring the prerequisite from Improved Grapple (Improved Unarmed Attack), which, by the way, I feel is completely stupid,

The reason, I expect, is that improved grapple lets you make the touch attack that begins the grab without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Training them to use the Improved Grab special attack (sort of equivalent to a monster feat) would mean it begins the grapple from a natural weapon attack, rather than a touch attack (as improved grab requires). It does not give them the +4 on the grapple check, though.

[Max Caysey]

The reason, I expect, is that improved grapple lets you make the touch attack that begins the grab without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Training them to use the Improved Grab special attack (sort of equivalent to a monster feat) would mean it begins the grapple from a natural weapon attack, rather than a touch attack (as improved grab requires). It does not give them the +4 on the grapple check, though.

Right... The removal of the AoO was a big part of it, so too is the +4. Because to achieve my goal of immediately flying off with the soldiers (preferably the CO), I will have to endure a -20 on grapple checks... So I need all the bonus I can get. However, I still like that its not a "press enter to win" scenario, so I don't mind getting the -20. The bats still have +6 then, so there will be an approximately 40% chance of picking up a soldier...

[ViperMagnum357]

^If you worried about the threat level and want things a little more challenging, Multigrab and Improved Multigrab reduce the penalties to -10 and 0 for maintaining a grapple without interfering with your movement or actions, though that gets feat intensive quickly and may be a little much for something that does not seem like a boss encounter.