Solar pc vs deva pc... no LA for the solar?

[dehro]

Out of curiosity I was checking possible unusual character's to play should my current one bite the bullet (again).
We're playing at around the 23rd level, so using the races in the title is actually doable... I think.
In theory the (monadic) deva starts out at level 18, to which I could attach 5 levels of cleric or fighter (opinions?).
The monadic deva is declared to have a LA of 8, summed to his 10 HD that brings him to 18.
The solar on the other hand has 22 HD and... no LA?
So I could just take him of the shelf as is, so to speak, and paste a level of epic cleric to him to get to 23rd level? It's that correct?
Furthermore, solars are described as the baddest mofos in the playground but...is that actually true?
Our party includes a few fairly well optimised characters like a couple of paladins, a warlock, etc, etc.
I'm thinking that at their current epic levels they could actually take on a "basic" solar, if they had to. Am I mistaken? Am I underestimating the solar? Would a solar "as is" be on par with them?
Would a deva be severely outmatched because of his steep LA our would he be worth it? (We also have a rakshasa sorcerer who is actually often the problem solver of the party, not lagging behind at all, despite similar LA).
LA buy-off is not an option and yes, having a deva, maybe even a solar in our party would actually not be out of place, given how we're currently regularly interacting with avatars or directly with several right hands of various gods and demigods.

Tl;Dr: are monadic devas and solars worth playing at epic levels and how do you even beging statting them out with regards to LA?

[Inevitability]

Solars are definitely some of the strongest outsiders existent. 9th-level cleric spells, access to epic spellcasting, and some additional awesome powers (Wish as a SLA, for one) will do that.

Now, on to your LA question:

Solars, by RAW, have — LA, not +0 LA. The difference between those is that while the second indicates playability without any additional measures, the first basically says that a monster can't be played at all!

Playing a +8 LA race is *never* a good idea. The rakshasa at least as 8th-level spells by now, but an astral deva is going to have to rely on its melee ability, which will be far behind if it's got 8 less BAB than other people at its level.

However, over a year ago I attempted to re-assign the Deva's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20716935&postcount=26) and Solar's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20723392&postcount=39) level adjustments, and the results may be of some use to you.

Note that they assume a mid- to high-optimization level: if your group isn't very optimized it's going to make for overpowered PCs. Also, if you end up going with these LAs, I suggest lowering the Rakshasa's as well, for the sake of fairness.

[dehro]

Sadly we're very by the book and the dm is not allowing any homebrew.
Also, seriously, the rakshasa is awesome as is. In a mock duel he took down my draconic cleric in two rounds, using two rays of enfeeblement and a third one on the next round (I really should've prepared restoration).
Edit: I'm not clear on how LA -means you can't play them

[icefractal]

If you want a high CR monster that's also a good caster, check out the Black Ethergaunt. ECL 20 IIRC, casts as a Wizard 17 with really high Int and some nice abilities.

However, while it's worthwhile in non-epic OR in mid-epic, it might be disadvantaged at low-epic like L23, because it has delayed access to Epic feats. Still, if you're not doing Epic Spellcasting, that may be fine.

Edit: Aaand I just reread the OP. Ethergaunts don't get along well with gods, so maybe not a perfect fit. 😝

[Douglas]

Sadly we're very by the book and the dm is not allowing any homebrew.
Also, seriously, the rakshasa is awesome as is. In a mock duel he took down my draconic cleric in two rounds, using two rays of enfeeblement and a third one on the next round (I really should've prepared restoration).
Two things:
1. Ray of Enfeeblement is a penalty, not ability damage. That means it doesn't stack with itself. The second and third rays just give him a chance to hope for a higher roll on the single instance that applies, not to combine the penalties. No matter how many times he casts it, it will never total more than a -11 penalty to your strength.
2. The spell specifically states it can't drop strength below 1. It could potentially put you in (very) heavy encumbrance, depending on your pre-penalty strength and how much you're carrying, but it will never paralyze you by dropping strength to 0.


Edit: I'm not clear on how LA -means you can't play them
The definition of "LA: -" is "not suitable for a player character". Any race that is suitable for a PC with no modifier to ECL has "LA: +0" instead.

[dehro]

1 the dm didn't rule it that way... and never has. I guess I should point it out to him.
2) I turned out to be encumbered and unable to stop him from put me down otherwise.
The dm rules that when we're at str 1 we can't even sit upright.

Well...too bad for the solar then.
Still wondering if the deva might be worth giving a try, but anyway, that's a problem for another day, since the current character is still alive

[Bohandas]

Solars, by RAW, have — LA, not +0 LA. The difference between those is that while the second indicates playability without any additional measures, the first basically says that a monster can't be played at all!

Or that the level adjustment would push them into the epic levels, which is apparently wat the OP is playing at which puts them back on the table

[OldTrees1]

Or that the level adjustment would push them into the epic levels, which is apparently wat the OP is playing at which puts them back on the table

WotC deeming a race unfit for PCs and a race having no valid ECL below epic level are equivalent statements outside of the Epic Level Handbook.

Since the Epic Level Handbook also lacks an ECL for Solars, the OP is out of luck as a result of the DM's position.

[Inevitability]

Or that the level adjustment would push them into the epic levels, which is apparently wat the OP is playing at which puts them back on the table

Sure, but it's already been established that the OP's DM doesn't allow homebrew, and no book lists a LA for the Solar.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Or that the level adjustment would push them into the epic levels, which is apparently wat the OP is playing at which puts them back on the table

No, it really means that the monster is not considered suitable as a PC. For example, the gelatinous cube also has an LA of -.

That does not mean that it is not possible to have a solar (or a gelatinous cube, for that matter) as a PC; it just means that this puts you into homebrew territory and the DM should be prepared to do some work to deal with the issues this might create.

Edit: The DMG has this to say on page 200:

If a creature in the Monster Manual doesn’t have a level adjustment, this means we don’t recommend using it as either a player character or a cohort. The dryad is a good example; she’s connected to her tree and as such has very limited mobility. Mindless or low-Intelligence creatures also make undesirable cohorts.

[dehro]

well.. I guess the Solar is out of the question then.
it's not a big deal anyway.
The deva still covers the same sort of role I would be playing anyway.. and is less controversial a choice.
I do wonder how a Deva brought at 23rd level would hold his ground in our party, but I guess I'll have to wait for my current character to kick the bucket, before I can find out

[Gusmo]

The solar is in an interesting place. If you think of it as a cleric that between its race and bunch of prestige classes ends up with all those SLAs, regeneration, and so forth, what is it really worth? It breaks WBL right out of the gate with its 1/day wish, for instance, but that's achievable in many different ways by the time you'd have as many class levels as a solar has hit dice. The value, in terms of level adjustment, falls as optimization level rises. Even to the point where you could argue for a negative level adjustment on the solar, when you're comparing it against some of the lunacy you could accomplish with the game's more broken classes by level 22. Something simple like cleric4/wizard1 or cleric1/wizard4 into dweomerkeeper10/thaumaturgist5/dweomerkeeper+2 walks all over a solar.

[lord_khaine]

The dm rules that when we're at str 1 we can't even sit upright.

Well then you were defeated by house rulings, not by the Rhakasha :smallamused:


Something simple like cleric4/wizard1 or cleric1/wizard4 into dweomerkeeper10/thaumaturgist5/dweomerkeeper+2 walks all over a solar.

Not really that certain about that. The solar still casts as a level 20 cleric with a couple of domains. And it has a really brutal chassis, with awesome stats and spell-like abilities.

[Crake]

Well then you were defeated by house rulings, not by the Rhakasha :smallamused:



Not really that certain about that. The solar still casts as a level 20 cleric with a couple of domains. And it has a really brutal chassis, with awesome stats and spell-like abilities.

Yeah, I gotta agree here. Dweomerkeeper's biggest asset is supernatural spell, which lets you ignore the xp and material costs for up to I believe 4 spells per day? A solar gets wish 1/day as an SLA, which can be upped to 3/day with magic in the blood, and converted into an SU ability with supernatural transformation, allowing for a 3/day supernatural wish, basically supernatural spell, but limited to spells wish can duplicate, and spontaneous.

Add onto that all the other SLAs, the full bab and good saves across the board, and lets not forget the really nice ability bonuses, regeneration, immunities, DR and resistances, I don't think you can really compare it to dweomerkeeper.

[Gusmo]

The point of negative level adjustment probably comes when you're breaking WBL, getting yourself unlimited/arbitrarily high numbers of spell per day, abusing body outside body, etc. The sort of things that make piddly stuff like BAB, saves, and other built in stats pretty much irrelevant because you've gamed the rules to jack your own stats so far through the roof that the abilities you get from your base race, whether human or solar, are a footnote. Class levels (don't marry yourself to my off the cuff example when thinking about this) give you a far superior chassis for such shenanigans, and will eventually leave a solar in the dust.

[lord_khaine]

The point of negative level adjustment probably comes when you're breaking WBL, getting yourself unlimited/arbitrarily high numbers of spell per day, abusing body outside body, etc. The sort of things that make piddly stuff like BAB, saves, and other built in stats pretty much irrelevant because you've gamed the rules to jack your own stats so far through the roof that the abilities you get from your base race, whether human or solar, are a footnote. Class levels (don't marry yourself to my off the cuff example when thinking about this) give you a far superior chassis for such shenanigans, and will eventually leave a solar in the dust.

At that absurd example the game is already completely broken though, and a Solar still allows you to break it as hard as possible. I mean, Solars already have easy access to free wishes. At that point the game is more or less over, there really isnt anything you cant do if you really want to.

[Bohandas]

No, it really means that the monster is not considered suitable as a PC. For example, the gelatinous cube also has an LA of -.

Look at dragon level adjustments though. I just did a quick perusal of several and they all seem to cut off where the LA would push the ecl above 20

[torrasque666]

Look at dragon level adjustments though. I just did a quick perusal of several and they all seem to cut off where the LA would push the ecl above 20
I counter with the Sillit. 7d8+18 LA. ECL 25. (FF 129)

[Crake]

I counter with the Sillit. 7d8+18 LA. ECL 25. (FF 129)

I have to believe that that is a typo though, because... it's CR6, how does it POSSIBLY have an ECL of 25. I gotta assume it's meant to be +8, not +18.

[OldTrees1]

Look at dragon level adjustments though. I just did a quick perusal of several and they all seem to cut off where the LA would push the ecl above 20

Correct.

Outside of the Epic Level Handbook it is rare for WotC to have attempted to assign ECLs for creatures if those ECLs would exceed non Epic play. Thus one can consider WotC as having deemed those races as unplayable because they were Epic or for some other reason (as observed in a case by case basis).

Some races that lack ECLs do so for other reasons (as the Savage Species splatbook will detail in the abstract) but you are right that some lack ECLs because WotC thought they would be too high to be worth estimating.


I counter with the Sillit. 7d8+18 LA. ECL 25. (FF 129)

You finding an exception to the trend Bohandas found does not negate the trend they found. WotC was quite hesitant to assign Epic ECLs outside of the Epic Level Handbook. So often they would merely deem the Epic race as unplayable rather than bother estimating an ECL.


I have to believe that that is a typo though, because... it's CR6, how does it POSSIBLY have an ECL of 25. I gotta assume it's meant to be +8, not +18.

Ultimately I don't think it being/not being a typo affects the subthread in question although it is an interesting observation.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Did they all call the sillit out as ECL 25? The Fiend Folio annoyingly switches between LA including HD and not at literal random. The Dark stalker's LA includes it's HD but none of the ethergaunts do. Khaasta is another example: it has a listed LA of 3 but is called out as as having an ECL of 3. Sillit could legit be +1, +8, +11, or +18.

That being said the only angel I know of with an LA is the astral deva at +8. I also have no clue what happens when a monster class goes epic but it may be an option.

[Kaleph]

well.. I guess the Solar is out of the question then.
it's not a big deal anyway.
The deva still covers the same sort of role I would be playing anyway.. and is less controversial a choice.
I do wonder how a Deva brought at 23rd level would hold his ground in our party, but I guess I'll have to wait for my current character to kick the bucket, before I can find out

If you look for a gishy playable race, check out the sharn (Monsters of Faerun / updated for 3.5 in the Appendix to PGtF that can be found online). With 4HD and LA +5 you have a PC casting 7 Sor/5 Cleric, with 4 domains, no need for material componets or focus, evasion, something between +8 and +10 to all abilities, +5 NA, immunity to mind-affecting effects, 12 natural weapons, natural flight, regeneration and damage reduction, 1 extra standard action per round, 3 racial bonus feats, darkvision and can create some nifty portals at will.

I doubt that you'll find something more playable and powerful than this.

Note: it was also updated in a FR adventure module (anauroch - the empire of shade), which is less canon than the PGtF version, in my opinion. They're quite similar anyhow, so just pick up the one you prefer, if you like the idea.

[dehro]

wellll... I mostly pick my character concepts by flavour and fluff...
the Sharn... I'm going to let the images speak for themselves...

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/e/ee/Sharn2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20071213071342
https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/1/12/Deva-5e.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/700?cb=20161119153420
Now, I realise that looks aren't everything, but the paladins in my party would need some serious convincing, to team up with a sharn.
Also, to be honest, I have no idea how to roleplay one of those things ..:smalleek:.

[Inevitability]

wellll... I mostly pick my character concepts by flavour and fluff...
the Sharn... I'm going to let the images speak for themselves...

https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/e/ee/Sharn2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20071213071342
https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/1/12/Deva-5e.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/700?cb=20161119153420
Now, I realise that looks aren't everything, but the paladins in my party would need some serious convincing, to team up with a sharn.
Also, to be honest, I have no idea how to roleplay one of those things ..:smalleek:.

Sharns aren't evil, are they? I don't see why a paladin specifically would have trouble allying with them. If anything, the whole 'LG and serious about it' should ensure some tolerance for other sentient beings regardless of their appearance.

[Kaleph]

Sharns aren't evil, are they? I don't see why a paladin specifically would have trouble allying with them. If anything, the whole 'LG and serious about it' should ensure some tolerance for other sentient beings regardless of their appearance.

I proposed the Sharn and I DO love them, and yes, they're CN but borderline good. In principle there's no necessary conflict with the paladin.

I confess, anyhow, that they may potentially create trouble in the interpretation and interaction with other PC's.

Nevertheless, if you're interested in a member of a race, which misteriously plots to achieve comprehension of the ultimate secrets of the multiverse, and whose intentions are beyond the understanding of the mortals...