Is this monk NPC too strong for level 9 or level 11 characters?

[Jon_Dahl]

The PCs in my game will fight ritualistic gladiator combat pretty soon and I have considered this monk to (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx0NhN0o9Jzxd2VNam5hT09Wa1U) be the final opponent. The question is that whether the PCs should fight him together or should the PCs select one of them to fight the monk champion? Before this final fight, the PCs will already have fought a small selection of mooks.

The PCs are:
Dwarven Cleric 11 of Boccob
Gnome Clostered Cleric 5/Stormlord 4 of Procan
Dwarf Expert 6/Horizon Walker 5

It's a hard decision. Any opinions?

[Jon_Dahl]

Sahuagin Champion
Female Half-Fiend Sahuagin Monk 8 / Monstrous Humanoid 2
Lawful Evil
Strength 20 (+5)
Dexterity 20 (+5)
Constitution 18 (+4)
Intelligence 16 (+3)
Wisdom 16 (+3)
Charisma 10 (+0)
Size: Medium
Height: 5' 5"
Weight: 240 lb
Skin:
Eyes:
Hair: None

Total Hit Points: 92 [includes toughness x1]
Speed: 50 feet [monk]

Unarmed attack +14/+9 / Damage: 1d10 +5 [strength] + (Stunning Fist Fort DC 17) + Bite attack +9 / Damage 1d4+2.

Flurry of Blows: +13/+13/+8 / Damage: 1d10 +5 [strength] + (Stunning Fist Fort DC 17) + Bite attack +9 / Damage 1d4+2.

Armor Class: 26 = 10 +5 [dexterity] +3 [wisdom] +1 [monk level] +1 [half-fiend] +5 [sahuagin] + 1 [Ring] + 2 [Bracers]
Touch AC: 20
Flat-footed: 22

Initiative modifier: +5 = +5 [dexterity]
Fortitude save: +15 = 9 [base] +4 [constitution] +2 [great fortitude]
Reflex save: +15 = 8 [base] +5 [dexterity] +2 [lightning reflexes]
Will save: +9 = 6 [base] +3 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +13/+8 = 8 [base] +5 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +13/+8 = 8 [base] +5 [strength]
Flurry of Blows: +12/+12/+7 [includes strength modifier]
Attack (missile): +13/+8 = 8 [base] +5 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +13/+8 = 8 [base] +5 [strength]
Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag: 133 lb. or less
134-266 lb.
267-400 lb.
400 lb.
800 lb.
2000 lb.
Languages: Aquan Common Sahuagin
Feats:
Improved Trip [monk]
Combat Reflexes [monk]
Great Fortitude
Improved Unarmed Strike [monk]
Stunning Fist [monk]
Lightning Reflexes
Toughness x1
Weapon Focus x1 Weapon(s):
Traits:
Skill Name Key
Ability Skill
Modifier Ability
Modifier Ranks Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 3 = +3
Balance Dex* 7 = +5 +2 [tumble]
Bluff Cha 0 = +0
Climb Str* 5 = +5
Concentration Con 8 = +4 +4
Diplomacy Cha 7 = +0 +5 +2 [sense motive]
Disguise Cha 0 = +0
Escape Artist Dex* 18 = +5 +13
Forgery Int 3 = +3
Gather Information Cha 0 = +0
Heal Wis 3 = +3
Hide Dex* 10 = +5 +5
Intimidate Cha 0 = +0
Jump Str* 15 = +5 +2 [tumble] +8 [speed 50]
Knowledge (religion) Int 16 = +3 +13
Listen Wis 3 = +3
Move Silently Dex* 5 = +5
Profession (Hunter) Wis 11 = +3 +8
Ride Dex 5 = +5
Search Int 3 = +3
Sense Motive Wis 8 = +3 +5
Spot Wis 8 = +3 +5
Survival Wis 8 = +3 +5
Swim Str** 10 = +5 +5
Tumble Dex* 18 = +5 +13
Use Rope Dex 5 = +5
* = check penalty for wearing armor
XP penalty for multiclass as: Expert
Escape Artist >=5 ranks gives +2 on use rope checks for bindings.
Sahuagin:
• Shark-folk from the deep.
• +4 strength, +2 dexterity,+2 wisdom, +2 constitution, +4 intelligence, -2 charisma (already included)
• 1d4/1d4 claw; 1d4 bite (bite at penalty)
• +5 on natural armor class

Half-Fiend Template:
• +4 strength, +4 dexterity, +2 constitution, +4 intelligence, +2 charisma
• Outsider (native)
• Bat wings allow flying at double the base speed
• Darkvision to 60 feet
• Spells
• Immune to poison
• Spell resistance 10+HD (maximum 35)
• Damage reduction
• Acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10
• Claw and bite attacks
• +4 effective character level
Half-Fiend Spell-Like Abilities

HD Abilities
1-2 Darkness 3/day

3-4 Desecrate

5-6 Unholy blight / Will DC 14
7-8 Poison 3/day / Fort DC 13

9-10 Contagion / Fort DC 13


Monk:
• AC Bonus for Wisdom
• AC Bonus for level (begins level 5)
• Flurry of Blows
• Unarmed Strike
• Fast Movement (already included)
• Bonus Feats (levels 1 2 & 6)
• Evasion (level 2)
• Fast Movement (level 3)
• Still Mind level 3)
• Ki Strike (level 4)
• Slow Fall (level 4)
• Purity of Body (level 5)
• Wholeness of Body (level 7)


Class HP rolled
Level 1: Warrior 8
Level 2: Warrior 1
Level 3: Monk 5
Level 4: Monk 5 +1 to wisdom
Level 5: Monk 5
Level 6: Monk 5
Level 7: Monk 5
Level 8: Monk 5 +1 to constitution
Level 9: Monk 5
Level 10: Monk 5

Sahuagin Champion's Equipment:
0 lb
_____
0 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)

Total
More about Sahuagin Champion:
Ring +1
Bracers of Armor +2

[danielxcutter]

I dunno, monks aren't really powerful(in fact, they kinda suck without a good amount of optimization), but your party doesn't seem that optimized either... I don't think they'll have too much of a problem, though.

[Jon_Dahl]

I dunno, monks aren't really powerful(in fact, they kinda suck without a good amount of optimization), but your party doesn't seem that optimized either... I don't think they'll have too much of a problem, though.

Are you saying that the fight should be 1-1 or 3-1?

[AlanBruce]

Are saying that the fight should be 1-1 or 3-1?

Looking at the party, we have a dwarf that can cast 6th level cleric spells.

Another that can cast 5th level cleric spells

And one that took an NPC class for some reason.

The sahuagin, even with the half fiend template and her SLAs, will be extremely lucky if she manages to hurt the first two on spellcasting alone, which they should have tons of. I have not seen your player's PC's builds, but if they have full access to all material and ample time to prepare, the dwarf cleric could potentially solo her easily. Again, if the cleric is aware of the situation a day in advance and knows who he's fighting, he can pray for all the necessary spells to negate most of her monk abilities.

[Remuko]

Why not give the Monk Improved Toughness instead of Toughness? Monk has 10 HD (2 race and 8 class) that would be 10 hp instead of 3. 7 extra hp is not bad, its certainly better than what you had, and the 7 more hp won't be a big enough boost to unbalance the creature or anything.

I think if your players/characters are smart, the Dwarven Cleric could 1v1 it with the right spells prepped and remaining before the fight. So really it depends on how tired your casters are. If they still have most/all of their spells they might be okay doing a 1v1, if they blew most of their magic getting to this fight it might be safer to have them fight it together.

[Jon_Dahl]

Why not give the Monk Improved Toughness instead of Toughness? Monk has 10 HD (2 race and 8 class) that would be 10 hp instead of 3. 7 extra hp is not bad, its certainly better than what you had, and the 7 more hp won't be a big enough boost to unbalance the creature or anything.

It's a good idea, but my players don't use that feat so I don't use it either. You can think of it as a 'reversed arms race'. Does that make sense?

I think if your players/characters are smart, the Dwarven Cleric could 1v1 it with the right spells prepped and remaining before the fight. So really it depends on how tired your casters are. If they still have most/all of their spells they might be okay doing a 1v1, if they blew most of their magic getting to this fight it might be safer to have them fight it together.[/QUOTE]

Ok, that seems like a good idea. If I get the feeling that they are almost out spells, I will have them fight the monk together 3v1. If they have used very few spells, it has to be 1v1.

[Godskook]

It entirely depends on player tactics and spell selection. By CR, that's roughly a CR+0 for -4- party members of 11th level, and you have 3, but you have 2 clerics at 5th+ spells, so CR can get very wonky at this point. Also, that Expert won't hold his weight in a fight, so there's that too.

Another thing to be concerned about is saves. +15/+15/+9 is a scary save array for unoptimized parties, especially on a Monk, who's strongest predicted save is Will. Compare that to the Party's DC 15-16+Wis saves, and its easy to predict that save-based spell combat is useless against him without a strong Wisdom score or pre-knowledge of his bad save.

[Karl Aegis]

That's CR 10 at best. Unless you have really weak characters you should be able to stomp it at level 11.

[mabriss lethe]

Action economy alone will work against the monk in a fight. I'd make sure to give her a few fodder npcs to stretch out the party. They don't have to be too tough, just something that can't be ignored and keep the whole party from just mobbing the monk.

[Jon_Dahl]

Action economy alone will work against the monk in a fight. I'd make sure to give her a few fodder npcs to stretch out the party. They don't have to be too tough, just something that can't be ignored and keep the whole party from just mobbing the monk.

If it's ok, I'd like to keep only two options open here: 3v1 or 1v1. Of course if you consider that 3v1+mooks is the best way to go, I'll respect that.

[Starbuck_II]

The PCs in my game will fight ritualistic gladiator combat pretty soon and I have considered this monk to (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx0NhN0o9Jzxd2VNam5hT09Wa1U) be the final opponent. The question is that whether the PCs should fight him together or should the PCs select one of them to fight the monk champion? Before this final fight, the PCs will already have fought a small selection of mooks.

The PCs are:
Dwarven Cleric 11 of Boccob
Gnome Clostered Cleric 5/Stormlord 4 of Procan
Dwarf Expert 6/Horizon Walker 5

It's a hard decision. Any opinions?

Why are they different levels?
One is 11
One is 9th.
One is 10th or 8th if we count NPC as 1/2.

[Jon_Dahl]

Why are they different levels?
One is 11
One is 9th.
One is 10th or 8th if we count NPC as 1/2.

Character death. You lose a level when you die, in almost all cases barring high-level magic.

[CozJa]

If it's ok, I'd like to keep only two options open here: 3v1 or 1v1. Of course if you consider that 3v1+mooks is the best way to go, I'll respect that.

If they are the same players from your other threads of a couple of times ago... I highly suggest a 3v1, unless they got better!

[Jon_Dahl]

If they are the same players from your other threads of a couple of times ago... I highly suggest a 3v1, unless they got better!

Yes, the same players, but I think they should be better now. It's just a hunch, that's all. More experienced now etc., you know?

[Florian]

@Jon Dahl:

I suggest 3v1 + 2 (unimportant) Mooks.
It´s not that the Monk is too deadly, but has some very good defenses and with your players history of sometimes not very sound tactical decisions, he could actually manage to shrug of some spells.

[Jon_Dahl]

@Jon Dahl:

I suggest 3v1 + 2 (unimportant) Mooks.
It´s not that the Monk is too deadly, but has some very good defenses and with your players history of sometimes not very sound tactical decisions, he could actually manage to shrug of some spells.

Yeah, I wanted a high-defense BBEG so that the fight would last more than three rounds.

[CozJa]

Yes, the same players, but I think they should be better now. It's just a hunch, that's all. More experienced now etc., you know?

Well that's good... in that case I second the addition of a couple of mooks, it could make things more interesting!

[Godskook]

@Jon Dahl:

I suggest 3v1 + 2 (unimportant) Mooks.
It´s not that the Monk is too deadly, but has some very good defenses and with your players history of sometimes not very sound tactical decisions, he could actually manage to shrug of some spells.

The Monk -will- shrug off a few spells unless they target his oddly and only relatively weak will save. Well, unless they use no-save spells. As covered above, and assuming the Clerics each have 22 Wisdom, he''ll need to roll 7/7/13 on his Fort/Ref/Will saves to pass them. That's a 70%/70%/40% save-rate, and meta-knowledge of how Monks work would lead people to -not- target his Will.

[Karl Aegis]

There's no reason to tell the players that they are fighting a monk, so there won't be any reason for them to be using meta-knowledge beyond monstrous humanoids have good reflex and will saves.

[Godskook]

There's no reason to tell the players that they are fighting a monk, so there won't be any reason for them to be using meta-knowledge beyond monstrous humanoids have good reflex and will saves.

Yes there is. Monks "exist", i.e., they spend lifetimes training and studying to be and do certain things. There's no reason to use the word "Monk", but that guy who's punching you in the fast while unarmored and maintaining a proper martial-arts stance should be described as the physical exemplar he is, and from that, the players will know he's a Monk, more or less, cause nobody else acts that way.

[ATHATH]

Yes there is. Monks "exist", i.e., they spend lifetimes training and studying to be and do certain things. There's no reason to use the word "Monk", but that guy who's punching you in the fast while unarmored and maintaining a proper martial-arts stance should be described as the physical exemplar he is, and from that, the players will know he's a Monk, more or less, cause nobody else acts that way.
*cough* Unarmed Swordsage *cough*

[Godskook]

*cough* Unarmed Swordsage *cough*

1.Swordsages are armored, and are one of the few classes(only?) that couldn't *POSSIBLY* benefit from a Monk's belt over real armor at a magic mart.

2.Context is important here. My thesis claim is that the PCs will target the Monk's Fort/Ref ~because~ he is a Monk. While an Unarmed Swordsage would be different, mechanically, in some respects, its not different in the *RELEVANT* respects. Anyone familiar enough to guess "swordsage" will also come to the same conclusion about targeting Will.

3.Based on the thread, I'm guessing OP's game is core only, either in houserules or approximate practice.

4.Otherwise, you have a point.

[John Longarrow]

The PCs are:
Dwarven Cleric 11 of Boccob
Gnome Clostered Cleric 5/Stormlord 4 of Procan
Dwarf Expert 6/Horizon Walker 5

Does the Cleric of Boccob tank normally? If so they will take out the monk 1 on 1.

Plate and Hv Shield is 10 points of AC
Shield of Faith and Magic Vestments on both armor and shield adds another 7
That gives an AC of 27 (barring any real goodies or a decent dex), enough that over half the Monk's attacks should miss.

Break out Divine Power and Righteous Might then go to town. +13 to hit (BAB and STR boost minus size) means three attacks against an AC of 26. This doesn't include bonus for weapon or clerics strength. Magic weapon would up that to +15 before any STR the cleric has. Odds tip quickly in the clerics favor just from a couple long duration buffs backed up by tanking for the fight.

If they know the monk's there and have a little time to prepare the monk should go down, but take a few rounds.

[SirNibbles]

1. It's not too powerful.

2. You can do claw attacks as part of your full attack in addition to your bite and UAS.

3. You may want to pick up a spear, especially with your high Dex and combat reflexes. You can drop it as a free action when you want to use your claw attacks or you can hold onto it to get AoOs against people who try to close distance or cast spells near you.

4. If you want to make it slightly more powerful, you can say it had trained with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137), allowing you to take 10 foot steps instead of 5 foot steps.

[Hurnn]

If the 11th cleric is geared, and prepared even halfway decent spells they should curb stomp that monk right out of existence.

[Jon_Dahl]

2. You can do claw attacks as part of your full attack in addition to your bite and UAS.

3. You may want to pick up a spear, especially with your high Dex and combat reflexes. You can drop it as a free action when you want to use your claw attacks or you can hold onto it to get AoOs against people who try to close distance or cast spells near you.


Wow! Is this real? This is like... so, so, so many attacks per round...

P.S. I replaced Toughness with Toothed Blow so that the NPC makes more sense.

[lbuttitta]

They should be fine.

[Jon_Dahl]

They should be fine.

"They "? 3v1 it is, then? Or do you support 3v1+mooks as well?

[John Longarrow]

If its three on one and your party is anything other than strange, it should be a short fight resulting in one Monk corpse laying on the ground. Either cleric should be able to solo this fight.

[Thurbane]

Out of curiosity, Jon_Dahl, what program or website do you use to generate character sheets?

Is it because of the generator you are using why your character sheets tend to be SRD only material?



Sahuagin Champion
Female Half-Fiend Sahuagin Monk 8 / Monstrous Humanoid 2
Lawful Evil
Strength 20 (+5)
Dexterity 20 (+5)
Constitution 18 (+4)
Intelligence 16 (+3)
Wisdom 16 (+3)
Charisma 10 (+0)
Size: Medium
Height: 5' 5"
Weight: 240 lb
Skin:
Eyes:
Hair: None

Total Hit Points: 92 [includes toughness x1]
Speed: 50 feet [monk]

Unarmed attack +14/+9 / Damage: 1d10 +5 [strength] + (Stunning Fist Fort DC 17) + Bite attack +9 / Damage 1d4+2.

Flurry of Blows: +13/+13/+8 / Damage: 1d10 +5 [strength] + (Stunning Fist Fort DC 17) + Bite attack +9 / Damage 1d4+2.

Armor Class: 26 = 10 +5 [dexterity] +3 [wisdom] +1 [monk level] +1 [half-fiend] +5 [sahuagin] + 1 [Ring] + 2 [Bracers]
Touch AC: 20
Flat-footed: 22

Initiative modifier: +5 = +5 [dexterity]
Fortitude save: +15 = 9 [base] +4 [constitution] +2 [great fortitude]
Reflex save: +15 = 8 [base] +5 [dexterity] +2 [lightning reflexes]
Will save: +9 = 6 [base] +3 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +13/+8 = 8 [base] +5 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +13/+8 = 8 [base] +5 [strength]
Flurry of Blows: +12/+12/+7 [includes strength modifier]
Attack (missile): +13/+8 = 8 [base] +5 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +13/+8 = 8 [base] +5 [strength]
Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag: 133 lb. or less
134-266 lb.
267-400 lb.
400 lb.
800 lb.
2000 lb.
Languages: Aquan Common Sahuagin
Feats:
Improved Trip [monk]
Combat Reflexes [monk]
Great Fortitude
Improved Unarmed Strike [monk]
Stunning Fist [monk]
Lightning Reflexes
Toughness x1
Weapon Focus x1 Weapon(s):
Traits:
Skill Name Key
Ability Skill
Modifier Ability
Modifier Ranks Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 3 = +3
Balance Dex* 7 = +5 +2 [tumble]
Bluff Cha 0 = +0
Climb Str* 5 = +5
Concentration Con 8 = +4 +4
Diplomacy Cha 7 = +0 +5 +2 [sense motive]
Disguise Cha 0 = +0
Escape Artist Dex* 18 = +5 +13
Forgery Int 3 = +3
Gather Information Cha 0 = +0
Heal Wis 3 = +3
Hide Dex* 10 = +5 +5
Intimidate Cha 0 = +0
Jump Str* 15 = +5 +2 [tumble] +8 [speed 50]
Knowledge (religion) Int 16 = +3 +13
Listen Wis 3 = +3
Move Silently Dex* 5 = +5
Profession (Hunter) Wis 11 = +3 +8
Ride Dex 5 = +5
Search Int 3 = +3
Sense Motive Wis 8 = +3 +5
Spot Wis 8 = +3 +5
Survival Wis 8 = +3 +5
Swim Str** 10 = +5 +5
Tumble Dex* 18 = +5 +13
Use Rope Dex 5 = +5
* = check penalty for wearing armor
XP penalty for multiclass as: Expert
Escape Artist >=5 ranks gives +2 on use rope checks for bindings.
Sahuagin:
• Shark-folk from the deep.
• +4 strength, +2 dexterity,+2 wisdom, +2 constitution, +4 intelligence, -2 charisma (already included)
• 1d4/1d4 claw; 1d4 bite (bite at penalty)
• +5 on natural armor class

Half-Fiend Template:
• +4 strength, +4 dexterity, +2 constitution, +4 intelligence, +2 charisma
• Outsider (native)
• Bat wings allow flying at double the base speed
• Darkvision to 60 feet
• Spells
• Immune to poison
• Spell resistance 10+HD (maximum 35)
• Damage reduction
• Acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10
• Claw and bite attacks
• +4 effective character level
Half-Fiend Spell-Like Abilities

HD Abilities
1-2 Darkness 3/day

3-4 Desecrate

5-6 Unholy blight / Will DC 14
7-8 Poison 3/day / Fort DC 13

9-10 Contagion / Fort DC 13


Monk:
• AC Bonus for Wisdom
• AC Bonus for level (begins level 5)
• Flurry of Blows
• Unarmed Strike
• Fast Movement (already included)
• Bonus Feats (levels 1 2 & 6)
• Evasion (level 2)
• Fast Movement (level 3)
• Still Mind level 3)
• Ki Strike (level 4)
• Slow Fall (level 4)
• Purity of Body (level 5)
• Wholeness of Body (level 7)


Class HP rolled
Level 1: Warrior 8
Level 2: Warrior 1
Level 3: Monk 5
Level 4: Monk 5 +1 to wisdom
Level 5: Monk 5
Level 6: Monk 5
Level 7: Monk 5
Level 8: Monk 5 +1 to constitution
Level 9: Monk 5
Level 10: Monk 5

Sahuagin Champion's Equipment:
0 lb
_____
0 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)

Total
More about Sahuagin Champion:
Ring +1
Bracers of Armor +2

[SirNibbles]

Wow! Is this real? This is like... so, so, so many attacks per round...

P.S. I replaced Toughness with Toothed Blow so that the NPC makes more sense.

Yes. You can use all your Natural Weapons as secondary attacks if you make a full attack. All your natural weapons take a -5 penalty on the attack roll, or a -2 penalty if you have the Multiattack feat.

This post shows monster stat blocks that confirm this:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21782217&postcount=72

[Jon_Dahl]

Out of curiosity, Jon_Dahl, what program or website do you use to generate character sheets?

Is it because of the generator you are using why your character sheets tend to be SRD only material?

I use this website for most of my NPCs: http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm

[EndocrineBandit]

Is there room to add snap kick and superior unarmed strike to the build? Both are from tome of battle.

[Jon_Dahl]

Is there room to add snap kick and superior unarmed strike to the build? Both are from tome of battle.

I thank you for the idea, EndocrineBandit, and it will be useful someday in my builds, but I will pass this time.

[Psyren]

Why one earth is one of your players using an NPC class?

I'm personally not at all a fan of single-monster-encounters.

[Jon_Dahl]

Why one earth is one of your players using an NPC class?



You get 1.5 levels (rounded down) of an NPC class (not commoner) per one level of a PC class. The same exchange rate is 2 to 1 with commoner. This house rule is under beta testing in my games. So far it has been somewhat underwhelming.

Thus the dwarf chose to be Expert 6/Horizon Walker 5 instead of a PC Class 4/Horizon Walker 5 (If that's even possible? But that question is not relevant here).

[Psyren]

You get 1.5 levels (rounded down) of an NPC class (not commoner) per one level of a PC class. The same exchange rate is 2 to 1 with commoner. This house rule is under beta testing in my games. So far it has been somewhat underwhelming.

Thus the dwarf chose to be Expert 6/Horizon Walker 5 instead of a PC Class 4/Horizon Walker 5 (If that's even possible? But that question is not relevant here).

But your clerics don't appear to have NPC classes, hence my confusion.

[Jon_Dahl]

But your clerics don't appear to have NPC classes, hence my confusion.

Apparently only one of the players find the house rule interesting/worthwhile. I'm afraid I won't force my players to take any NPC classes.

[Psyren]

Apparently only one of the players find the house rule interesting/worthwhile. I'm afraid I won't force my players to take any NPC classes.

You might be misunderstanding me - I don't think they should be doing that at all and it should be actively discouraged. As this thread shows, encounter math is complicated enough as it is.