Is My Idea For A Paladin "Self-Destructive"?

[Basement Cat]

A DM I might play under is dubious about my idea for a paladin because, well...I think my idea breaks his brain a little. :smallwink:


Race: Human
Class: Paladin (with an eye towards becoming a Green Knight)
Background: Hermit
Languages: Sylvan, Common, Draconic
Total Skills: Insight, medicine, survival, religion.
Personality Trait: I'm something of a lone wolf. While I recognize the value of teamwork I'll break off and go work alone if the party is acting wrong (maybe even stupid). {I came up with this}
Ideal: Solitude: If you know yourself there's nothing left to know.
Bond: I'm still seeking the enlightenment I pursued in my seclusion, and it still eludes me.
Flaw: My childhood friends and I went on an 'adventure' but were captured and tortured by monsters. Only I survived to be rescued and to this day I dread the thought of ever being captured again. {I came up with this}

Feature: I lived largely alone in a hut on my family lands during my mid to late teams as a result of the psychological wounds I suffered. During that time I sought solace through meditation and found much healing from spirits of nature. But while my parents (both Wizards) expected me to follow in their footsteps the spirits have a different path for me to walk...

1st level bonus feat: Magic Initiate with Druid spells: Druidcraft ("I can commue with nature."), Produce Flame ("I'll never be without light or a weapon."), Goodberry ("Let the Gods bear witness--I'll never be hungry again!").

Divine source: I'm an animist. "I commune with the spirits of the world and seek to preserve life and bring healing to the world and others".

To top things off I plan to multiclass to Wizard upon 2nd level.

Topic Discussion: The DM is convinced that my character is a Paladin designed to fall. He gets the animist thing (it's a very different flavor and he likes that) but having built in psychological vulnerabilities (especially my self-designed Flaw) makes him think I couldn't become a paladin in the first place.

My thinking is that Paladins don't "fall from grace" in 5th edition as readily as they did in previous editions. Heck, I'm not sure that I can fall from grace until I take the Oath at 3rd level. Moreover the Oath of the Ancients doesn't require you to always be happy and whatnot--just strive to preserve goodness and light, etc, including in yourself.

Or to put it another way--as long as my character keeps trying to heal himself and do good it doesn't necessarily mean I have to be a rampaging hedonist.

Thoughts?

[Hrdven]

Playing a paladin from level 1 and making him fall from grace is probably one of the most fun things you can do in dnd. Specially for devotion paladins.

[Corran]

While the flaw might seem a bit problematic for a steretupical paladin (was Brave sir Robin a paladin?), I would be more worried about your personality trait, if I were in your DM's shoes. Splitting the party can lead to no good...

The magic initiate druid is a very good touch, playing really well with a number of things, but most of all with your background! Very nice touch!

I dont see the reasons for the wizard multiclass, other than that your character's parents were both wizards. By itself it doesn't say all that much, so maybe you could build on this a bit more? Is your character trying to prove something to his parents? Is he trying to make them proud? Etc etc

While I dont place much value in the tenets of the oaths (as I feel that most of the time they restrict me in unnecessary ways -just my opinion), I generally think of ancients paladin as being very cheerful, hearty, full-of-life/joy fellows. I mean, if I ever wanted to work on an ancients paly who would fall, I would make him prone to depression or sth like that, so I guess your DM might have legitimate reason to worry?

Real honest. Are you just aiming to be an oathbreaker/necromancer? :smalltongue:

About languages. Just drop draconic and pick up Goblin (goblins were the monsters that had captued you!). Everyone picks draconinc, I am sick of it. It's been a long time since I stopped picking the fancy languages and started going with the unpopular ones. Afterall, if you meet a dragon, what are the chances that the DM wont have the dragon speak to you in common? But if you go after goblins, knowing the goblin language could be of good use.
Also, consider this. When you will finally become an oathbreaker/necromancer (:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:), you will be able to have some goons around, be them goblin or orcs or whathaveyou. Just select which race you would like your (living) goons to be, and pick the appropriate language.

[RazorChain]

Lone wolf never works in rpgs, having a character that likes solitude is something different, while "offscreen" he might go into the woods to meditate. Else I see nothing wrong with your character.

[Basement Cat]

While the flaw might seem a bit problematic for a steretupical paladin (was Brave sir Robin a paladin?), I would be more worried about your personality trait, if I were in your DM's shoes. Splitting the party can lead to no good...


Lone wolf never works in rpgs, having a character that likes solitude is something different, while "offscreen" he might go into the woods to meditate. Else I see nothing wrong with your character.

The personality trait isn't designed to split the party so much as fuel for interactive friction via role playing. Being willing to go lone wolf has much to do with his being unwilling to labor alongside "bad guys" i.e. PC's who act against his ideals but it also represents psychological wounds i.e. he's not going to go through with dumb ass plans or turn a blind eye to base stupidity like what resulted in his being captured and tortured.

EDIT: How do you cope when paladins don't get along with PC's and NPC because of different ideals? Oh, and it doesn't mean he'll break away in the blink of an eye. I figured this would contribute to Inspiration, too.


The magic initiate druid is a very good touch, playing really well with a number of things, but most of all with your background! Very nice touch! :smallredface:



I dont see the reasons for the wizard multiclass, other than that your character's parents were both wizards. By itself it doesn't say all that much, so maybe you could build on this a bit more? Is your character trying to prove something to his parents? Is he trying to make them proud? Etc etc He's actually drawn to magic because it's what he's been reared to respect, admire, and even crave. He wants to be a wizard and learn spells (and not just because he believes that if he learns enough magic he'll be safe!). In short he prefers to be a Wizard.

But the spirits have a different path for him. One that involves armor, weapons and physical violence he prefers to avoid. He's an intellectual, artistic type rather than a inherent warrior.


While I dont place much value in the tenets of the oaths (as I feel that most of the time they restrict me in unnecessary ways -just my opinion), I generally think of ancients paladin as being very cheerful, hearty, full-of-life/joy fellows. I mean, if I ever wanted to work on an ancients paly who would fall, I would make him prone to depression or sth like that, so I guess your DM might have legitimate reason to worry? My thinking here is he has to grow and heal himself in order to preserve the life and light that began his healing. In essence I'm starting him off wounded so that he will grow to be an example to others that you can achieve happiness, healing, and closure no matter what suffering you experience.

So while many paladins' stories begin happy only for them to suffer pain and disillusionment and face the possibility of falling from grace (Think Elizabeth Moon's The Deeds of Paksenarrion series and what Paks went through) he's starting at the bottom to begin with and climbing out of the abyss of despair into the light.


Real honest. Are you just aiming to be an oathbreaker/necromancer? :smalltongue: *chuckles* Never even crossed my mind. I want him to make it to retirement as an example that others can respect and even emulate. Mind that he actually has to not only survive but succeed to reach that happy ending.

P.S. I'm guessing that the combo you're suggesting is a puissant one? I barely know the oathbreaker stuff.



About languages. Just drop draconic and pick up Goblin (goblins were the monsters that had captued you!). Everyone picks draconinc, I am sick of it. It's been a long time since I stopped picking the fancy languages and started going with the unpopular ones. Afterall, if you meet a dragon, what are the chances that the DM wont have the dragon speak to you in common? But if you go after goblins, knowing the goblin language could be of good use.

Draconic is necessary because he's a scholarly fellow and in our game world much ancient lore is written in Draconic. It's for researching more than for communication, really. More role playing than practical.



Also, consider this. When you will finally become an oathbreaker/necromancer (:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:), you will be able to have some goons around, be them goblin or orcs or whathaveyou. Just select which race you would like your (living) goons to be, and pick the appropriate language.

:smalltongue:

[Corran]

My thinking here is he has to grow and heal himself in order to preserve the life and light that began his healing. In essence I'm starting him off wounded so that he will grow to be an example to others that you can achieve happiness, healing, and closure no matter what suffering you experience.

So while many paladins' stories begin happy only for them to suffer pain and disillusionment and face the possibility of falling from grace (Think Elizabeth Moon's The Deeds of Paksenarrion series and what Paks went through) he's starting at the bottom to begin with and climbing out of the abyss of despair into the light.

Didnt catch the refference, but I got the jist of it.
Seems like a very carefully planned character to me, with attention to details (adding up your other points).
I would see no reason why not to be glad to have such a character at my table (either as a DM or as a player). In fact I would be very excited at such a prospect of a character.

Now, if your DM has difficulties accepting this evolving concept starting as a paladin, you could remind him/her that paladins dont get to pick up an oath until they reach their 3rd level. It is exactly at that point in time that they get their tenets, so a more flexible interpretation of what a paladin is could be allowed until you reach that point in time (when you reach the 3rd paladin level I mean). Yeah, it would probably make more sense to already live by these tenets, which you will fully embrace and understand when you reacj 3rd level in paladin, but as long as your concept is not far enough (and since it is evolving towards that direction), I dont see why the DM should have a problem with that. After all, the paladin's powers are nothing else than a manifestation of their will/ convictions. You could easily justify both lay on hand and divine sense based on what you told us about your character, and very easily at that. Then fighting style does not need any particular explanation, and as for divine smite and spells, again, I see no problem fitting them in. I mean, everything falls right into place with the (self-) preservation and healing theme you have going on. And you can play the attackminded features and spells, like what happens when you feel really pressed in a combat situation (because you are afraid to get captured again, so that fear manifests in the form of divine smite or some smite spell).

Granted, the first 3 levels can come by very quickly, but since you will be multiclassing, you could delay your 3rd paladin level enough, and take it when it makes the most sense time-wise, so that it fits better your character's growth. All this if your DM makes such a big deal about justifying every single mechanic that you have.

[GPS]

I'm gonna add to the pile, lone wolf is never a good idea, especially a trait where you go off on your own when you think the party is wrong. Don't do it, no good.

[Sirdar]

Perhaps your quest for perfect harmony via solitude can't be reached before you learn humility? With patience you travel with strange people to strange places in order to prove yourself worthy. It is hard for a lone wolf like you when it is your turn to tell a campfire story, but the road to enlightenment is narrow. You do your best to mimic the behaviour of the wolf pack. You do your best to endure. You won't going postal today. Maybe tomorrow, but not today.

[Unoriginal]

Topic Discussion: The DM is convinced that my character is a Paladin designed to fall. He gets the animist thing (it's a very different flavor and he likes that) but having built in psychological vulnerabilities (especially my self-designed Flaw) makes him think I couldn't become a paladin in the first place.

My thinking is that Paladins don't "fall from grace" in 5th edition as readily as they did in previous editions. Heck, I'm not sure that I can fall from grace until I take the Oath at 3rd level. Moreover the Oath of the Ancients doesn't require you to always be happy and whatnot--just strive to preserve goodness and light, etc, including in yourself.

Or to put it another way--as long as my character keeps trying to heal himself and do good it doesn't necessarily mean I have to be a rampaging hedonist.

Thoughts?

There is only ONE way to "fall" as a Paladin, in 5e.

You have to deliberately break your Oath, then do nothing to repent from your transgression.

That's it.

So no, your Paladin is not set up to fall.





Divine source: I'm an animist. "I commune with the spirits of the world and seek to preserve life and bring healing to the world and others".

As a Paladin, your "Divine source" is your Oath. Neither gods nor spirits.

[Arkhios]

As a Paladin, your "Divine source" is your Oath. Neither gods nor spirits.

Not entirely true. You are a paladin even from the first level, while Oath comes only after you reach 3rd level. As a paladin, your "Divine source" is your conviction, and the cause of your conviction may well be a god or spirits or whatever. Your Oath merely strengthens the powers you already have.

As for OP, I agree. To have the Oath of the Ancients and to follow its tenets doesn't require you to be a "rampaging hedonist" as you said. Funnily enough, parts of your character's background remind me of my own.

A northern tribesman - a "barbarian" if you will - born to a legacy of an Archmage of old times, given training in the arcane arts as part of a family tradition, but chose a different path. His was as mundane as a blacksmith, who only late in his second decade found his conviction to become a paladin, in the service of the Old Faith, the very same faith many druids follow.

Mechanically though, his arcane studies were limited to having proficiency in Arcana, and nothing more.

I wouldn't say your character is set up to fall. His path is just seems to be a little different from others who call themselves paladins.

[Basement Cat]

Now, if your DM has difficulties accepting this evolving concept starting as a paladin, you could remind him/her that paladins dont get to pick up an oath until they reach their 3rd level. It is exactly at that point in time that they get their tenets, so a more flexible interpretation of what a paladin is could be allowed until you reach that point in time (when you reach the 3rd paladin level I mean). Yeah, it would probably make more sense to already live by these tenets, which you will fully embrace and understand when you reacj 3rd level in paladin, but as long as your concept is not far enough (and since it is evolving towards that direction), I dont see why the DM should have a problem with that. After all, the paladin's powers are nothing else than a manifestation of their will/ convictions. You could easily justify both lay on hand and divine sense based on what you told us about your character, and very easily at that. Then fighting style does not need any particular explanation, and as for divine smite and spells, again, I see no problem fitting them in. I mean, everything falls right into place with the (self-) preservation and healing theme you have going on. And you can play the attackminded features and spells, like what happens when you feel really pressed in a combat situation (because you are afraid to get captured again, so that fear manifests in the form of divine smite or some smite spell).

Granted, the first 3 levels can come by very quickly, but since you will be multiclassing, you could delay your 3rd paladin level enough, and take it when it makes the most sense time-wise, so that it fits better your character's growth. All this if your DM makes such a big deal about justifying every single mechanic that you have.
I like your reasoning. I think this will definitely work. Thanks!


There is only ONE way to "fall" as a Paladin, in 5e.

You have to deliberately break your Oath, then do nothing to repent from your transgression.

That's it.

So no, your Paladin is not set up to fall.

As a Paladin, your "Divine source" is your Oath. Neither gods nor spirits.

Okay, that makes sense.

I guess I'm just carrying baggage from earlier editions where DM's routinely set up BS lose-lose situations: "Your choice is either let the village die or eat this baby."

*rolls eyes*

That's an exaggeration, of course, but we all know the ways that many DM's live for pulling crap like that where goody two-shoe paladins are involved. :smallwink:

OT: Okay, it seems folks agree that my Flaw isn't a concern so much as my Personality Trait: Lone Wolf.

I hate thinking about it from the meta-gaming perspective of "Never Split The Party!!!" but I can't argue that it seems to come across as more of a Flaw than anything else.

Hmmm, how about:

Personality Trait: Recognizes the value of teamwork but is uncomfortable depending upon others and prefers to work alone.

That's not too "Lone Wolf" but it allows for the same kind of tension.

[Specter]

You definitely don't fall from grace before 2nd level. You could even reflavor the paladin before the oath as a generic extraplanar hunter.