How viable is a Champion?

[scalyfreak]

In my efforts to learn the system better I am entertaining myself creating characters. Current experiment is a half-orc fighter. I'm thinking of going the most simplistic and straight-forward route and going with the Champion Archetype as described in the PHB (more or less my only resource so far), but I'm worried that my brave half-orc's efficiency in battle will be hindered by having to rely too much on dice rolls for damage output. I have notoriously bad luck with dice, and if by some miracle rolling a 15 or higher counted as a critical hit, I doubt I'd see that happen more than once per month or so.

I'm planning to go with war hammer, longsword, handaxe and javelins for my weapons, with a big shield that can be used for bashing opponents as well as just hiding behind. Dueling fighting style out of the gate, mainly since the mental image of a big war hammer and a shield appeals to me.

So... since I really don't expect the improved critical hits feature to be reliable at all, are the other abilities of the Champion enough to make up for the lack and make sure my half-orc will be sufficiently frightening and capable of trampling her enemies at will?

[jaappleton]

Champion is one of the only archetypes that require no resource management. They simply work.

And they're fine.

That also means they aren't stellar. They excel at little.

Eldritch Knights can cast some spells. A few, not many. But they augment their abilities quite a bit. Hint: The best EKs are defensive oriented with their spells, since their offensive spells sorta suck.

Battlemaster are reliant totally on their superiority dice. And those dice can debilitate enemies, ensure attacks hit, etc. Their dice is their life. And when they run out... They're a standard Fighter.

From an optimization perspective, you did well in picking Half Orc. Their extra damage dice on crits is an obvious choice for Champion.

I personally think Barbarian 5 (Totem) and then going Fighter 3 (Champion) with a Half Orc is a great route.

[deathadder99]

In my efforts to learn the system better I am entertaining myself creating characters. Current experiment is a half-orc fighter. I'm thinking of going the most simplistic and straight-forward route and going with the Champion Archetype as described in the PHB (more or less my only resource so far), but I'm worried that my brave half-orc's efficiency in battle will be hindered by having to rely too much on dice rolls for damage output. I have notoriously bad luck with dice, and if by some miracle rolling a 15 or higher counted as a critical hit, I doubt I'd see that happen more than once per month or so.

I'm planning to go with war hammer, longsword, handaxe and javelins for my weapons, with a big shield that can be used for bashing opponents as well as just hiding behind. Dueling fighting style out of the gate, mainly since the mental image of a big war hammer and a shield appeals to me.

So... since I really don't expect the improved critical hits feature to be reliable at all, are the other abilities of the Champion enough to make up for the lack and make sure my half-orc will be sufficiently frightening and capable of trampling her enemies at will?


You have a crit chance of 10%. Fighters attack a LOT. As a champion you'll be attacking up to 4 times eventually - twice at 5, 3 times at 11, and 4 times at 20. You can action surge for another full set of attacks. If you can get some way of getting advantage, your crit chance is 20%. You'll see crits quite a lot. You mentioned you wanted to go with a shield. Picking up Shield Master is a really good choice - you get some defensive bonuses, and it means you can shove someone prone with a bonus action (RAW you can shove before you attack) and get that sweet advantage on all your attacks.

Champions are more than viable. They are great for learning the system, but they don't have a huge swathe of options. Fighters are also better than they've ever been. They are especially good if your DM is stingy with rests - if you short rest often then Battlemasters will outperform the Champion - but nothing will outdamage a Champion on a long day.

[RSP]

Everyone relies on dice rolls for damage at some point. The Champion is fine and if going Dueling/shield, I'd pick up the Shield Master feat: the bonus action Shove is your bread and butter. A prone enemy will get you Advantage on melee attacks, doubling your chance to crit. As Fighters keep getting more attacks, it countinues to get better as you level.

[ruy343]

Going Half-orc with the champion is a good choice, but I've noticed that you're not swinging around a big weapon like you should, assuming that you want to be optimal, which I often don't). If you were to pick up a Greataxe with the Great Weapon Fighting style, you'd be able to consistently hit hard, and roll a bigger damage dice with your half-orc critical boost (which you get more often as a champion).

Just a thought...

[dejarnjc]

Easily the weakest sub-class in the game RAW but still not terrible because 5e is generally balanced.

Improves substantially if you use the popular crit rule where you roll one set of die and max the other on a critical hit. But even with that rule the sub-class is still easily last place.

An optimized champion does perform better than a non-optimized character though.

[Sigreid]

It's fine and it's fun. The only thing to keep in mind is you won't have what you can do spelled out in spells and abilities, so you will have to be creative about how you use your skills to overcome challenges.

[ad_hoc]

You have a crit chance of 10%. Fighters attack a LOT. As a champion you'll be attacking up to 4 times eventually - twice at 5, 3 times at 11, and 4 times at 20.

Realistically that isn't true. The average campaign will be finished by 11. Very few campaigns will go to 20, and when they do they will spend such a low amount of time there that the abilities will have made almost 0 impact on the game.

That said, Champions are fine.

[scalyfreak]

Lots of helpful answers here. Thank you everyone!

I'm trying to avoid multi-classing, mainly because I enjoy the creative challenge of making a single class fit the character concept I have in my head, but also because I'm lazy and don't want to have to keep track of too many things at once. :smalltongue:

With regards to a great weapon... that looks promising, but it also looks like I would have to choose between Great Weapon Fighting or Dueling, and I really do like the idea of dueling with a shield.Decisions, decisions...


It's fine and it's fun. The only thing to keep in mind is you won't have what you can do spelled out in spells and abilities, so you will have to be creative about how you use your skills to overcome challenges.

That, right there, is half the fun of roleplaying. :smallsmile:

[jaappleton]

Lots of helpful answers here. Thank you everyone!

I'm trying to avoid multi-classing, mainly because I enjoy the creative challenge of making a single class fit the character concept I have in my head, but also because I'm lazy and don't want to have to keep track of too many things at once. :smalltongue:

With regards to a great weapon... that looks promising, but it also looks like I would have to choose between Great Weapon Fighting or Dueling, and I really do like the idea of dueling with a shield.Decisions, decisions...



That, right there, is half the fun of roleplaying. :smallsmile:

I wouldn't take GWF style. Ever. It's a trap, really.

It's a chance to deal on average maybe 1 more damage. Not worth it.

Defense? A solid +1 to AC? Yup. I'll take that.

[DivisibleByZero]

Champion is not only fine, it's actually considerably better than people give it credit for. So is Thief Rogue.
Build a standard, iconic, vanilla party. Champion, Thief, Life Cleric, and either Evoker or Enchanter Wizard.
That's an extremely strong group.


Easily the weakest sub-class in the game RAW but still not terrible because 5e is generally balanced.

Improves substantially if you use the popular crit rule where you roll one set of die and max the other on a critical hit. But even with that rule the sub-class is still easily last place.

An optimized champion does perform better than a non-optimized character though.

This is simply not true.
Champions are not flashy, but they are nowhere close to weak. They're simple, and extremely effective.

[BoutsofInsanity]

They are badasses made of badass filled with nails, grit and more nails.

Champions rock, they kick all day, and don't stop.

First of all, do not specialize with a fighter. Your best thing is that you get lots of either feats or stats. You can be the jack of all trades badass. You pick up Archery Style first, so you get that sweet +2 to hit with all ranged weapons and are effective at Range. From there, when you pick up your second style feat you can pick whatever you want, i'd pick a melee one of some sort.

At that point, you can fight from range, and then if some dumb-ass mother****er rolls into a melee fight with you, well that brutal savagery combined with 6 attacks from action surge is his fault. You don't get tired, can have excellent stats, or good saves with feats or any other option really.

I fully feel that the champion fighter opens tons of options for players if you play creatively, grab as many grab bag items as you can, and present yourself with multiple mundane options. Hell pick up magic initiate if you want some magic options as well.

And remember, your crit increase isn't a crit chance increase. It's an auto-hit double dice damage increase. So it's that much better.

Sources: I have one of these in my game, they rule.

[Specter]

This is how you make an optimized Champ:

- Find a reliable way to get advantage (such as the Mounted Combatant feat, or Barbarian's Reckless Attack).
- Find ways to add damage dice to your attacks (such as the Rogue's sneak attack, or Ranger's Colossus Slayer).

The first one is important because it raises your crit chance from 10% to 19% with every hit. That's very significant. The second one is important because a regular weapon crit is not very frightening; but when 5d6+1d8 are riding on that attack, along with the Half-Orc's brutal crit, suddenly your 19-20 will send shivers down foes' spines.

The best multiclass I can think of for Champion is Spellless Ranger 3; Defense fighting style, +1d8 with Colossus Slayer and maneuvers to be added on top of the crit.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Champion offers minor statistical benefits you most likely won't notice and little else, but the base Fighter is exceptionally strong, so <shrug>. Specter is right on the money about ways to take advantage of it. You probably want the biggest weapon you can manage, though, because a crit that deals +1d8 damage is just... sad.

[CaptainSarathai]

Champions love:
Half Orc
Defense Style
Big, single-die weapon
Great Weapon Master

From there, you have some options, because you want Advantage and/or ways to pump damage.
Barb2 - Reckless Attack for easy advantage

Magic Initiate: Hex or Hunter's Mark - keys off dump stats, but doesn't use them for anything. Adds a d6 to Damage, once per long rest. Can also pick up GFB or BB. This would reduce your standard damage at 5+ (2d12+2Str to d12+d8+2Str+Rider) but it focuses more damage on a single attack roll. Good for Multiclassing builds.

Mounted Combatant - free Advantage in Medium and Smaller creatures while on horseback
--

Another good Champ build is to run Duellist, Shield, Rapier, and Rogue levels, take Shield Mastery. This lets you Probe for Advantage, triggering Sneak Attack and then increasing Crit odds. In all reality, this can be better damage output than a straight Champion, except that you lose an attack on the shove.
D12 Brutal = 3d12 or 19.5 damage
D8 Brutal + SA + Duellist = 3d8+2d6+2 or 22.5 damage

[Tanarii]

And remember, your crit increase isn't a crit chance increase. It's an auto-hit double dice damage increase. So it's that much better. Is increased crit-range for champions auto-hit as well? (AFB and I can't recall.)

[GlenSmash!]

Is increased crit-range for champions auto-hit as well? (AFB and I can't recall.)

That's been a point for debate ever since 5e came out. I rule a Critical Hit is by definition a Hit. Others may not.

[Tanarii]

That's been a point for debate ever since 5e came out. I rule a Critical Hit is by definition a Hit. Others may not.
Oh okay. In that case, let's not derail the 'viability' debate with a different debate. :smallbiggrin:

[Contrast]

That's been a point for debate ever since 5e came out. I rule a Critical Hit is by definition a Hit. Others may not.

Not really a debate - text says 'If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the targets AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit as explained later in this chapter'. Champion says 'your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20'.

Clearly intended to be separate things. You are, of course, welcome to play however you like at your table :smallbiggrin:

Edit - All aboard the derail train! :smallwink: On topic - champion is fine. If you're worried about being unlucky Shield Master could be fun - perma advantage means by level 5 you should have a 35% chance of critting every turn.

Edit 2 - Off topic again - in fairness it does look like Sage Advice disagrees with my on this one (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/21/are-fighter-champion-improved-critical-hits-like-a-normal-20/).

[RSP]

Is increased crit-range for champions auto-hit as well? (AFB and I can't recall.)

Yes. I believe the quote from JC is "a critical hit, is in fact, a hit," or something like that.



D12 Brutal = 3d12 or 19.5 damage
D8 Brutal + SA + Duellist = 3d8+2d6+2 or 22.5 damage

Good build choices for optimizing (and the Champ has many ways to optimize), but not sure this is a fair comparison seeing as how on the second instance you're including an extra level and a fighting style, compared to nothing added on the first. If that level of Rogue would have instead been Fighter 4, 5, 6, or 8, you're looking at either an extra attack, or a feat, like GWM, adding an additional attack (bonus action attack from the crit - which as you're already criting more as a Champ, is a serious boon), and possibly +10 damage. Not to mention the GWF style, which, while not amazing, can be a significant swing on a damage roll.

[ad_hoc]

I mean, it is a Critical Hit. It's impossible to both score a hit and miss at the same time.

Also, a 19 is going to hit anyway so it's not worth worrying about.

[GlenSmash!]

Oh okay. In that case, let's not derail the 'viability' debate with a different debate. :smallbiggrin:

Right. Back to the topic at hand. Champions are viable. I've actually had players that struggled with playing anything else. The simplicity of the class worked for them.

[RSP]

Not really a debate - text says 'If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the targets AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit as explained later in this chapter'. Champion says 'your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20'.

Clearly intended to be separate things. You are, of course, welcome to play however you like at your table :smallbiggrin:

Edit - All aboard the derail train! :smallwink: On topic - champion is fine. If you're worried about being unlucky Shield Master could be fun - perma advantage means by level 5 you should have a 35% chance of critting every turn.

Edit 2 - Off topic again - in fairness it does look like Sage Advice disagrees with my on this one (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/21/are-fighter-champion-improved-critical-hits-like-a-normal-20/).

Per Crawford:

Lars Hjortshøj @20771646
Nov 1, 2015
@JeremyECrawford
Hi
I have a question about the champions improved crit hit range on 18-20
Are they automatic hits like a normal 20?
Thx

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford

Replying to @20771646
@20771646 Yes, they are.

Edit: nice job ninja'ing my research.

[MrStabby]

Champion is OK, if a little dull for my tastes. I know you don't want to multiclass but as a general point on the subject I do find they get better (in the sense of more enjoyable) with a dip of something else just to add some more flexibility, variety and on-call resources.

[Sigreid]

If you have another melee in the group, kobold champion could be crazy. No multi class advantage + expanded crit.

[JAL_1138]

Assuming it's built reasonably competently, any core class and core archetype is viable. Some are stronger than others, some are weaker than others, and some are just weird and wonky, but they all function. That's the nice thing about 5e--as long as you even kind of try to put in decent stats on a character and don't go completely nuts with multiclassing, your character will work at least reasonably decently.

Gone are the days when playing a Fighter in a group with a buff-stacking Cleric meant you were utterly superfluous. A single-classed, sword-and-board Champion isn't optimized, and there are going to be characters who are more powerful or versatile...but it still works—pretty well, actually—even at the same table as those high-op characters. You'll definitely be able to contribute meaningfully to the group's effectiveness, both in combat and out of it.

It's still possible to build an outright bad character, but you kinda have to go out of your way and/or not understand the basics of the system whatsoever in order to do it. You don't seem to be in that boat at all, so don't worry; it'll be fine. :smallsmile:

As for your dice luck, have you tested your dice? If you're using the same sets consistently, and getting consistently low rolls, the dice themselves could be biased. The saltwater test (look it up on Youtube for some solid instructional videos) is a decent way to check them for issues with balance, like internal air bubbles or subtle misshapenness. You might simply need new dice.

One of the better ways to improve randomness seems to be a dice tower; it stops the dice from rolling until they find their center of gravity, which helps mitigate some of the issues of weight imbalances or slight production flaws. It's not foolproof and bad dice can still give skewed results with one, but it can help a bit. You can find reasonably-priced ones on Amazon easily, and occasionally local game stores will carry them.

[ad_hoc]

As for your dice luck, have you tested your dice? If you're using the same sets consistently, and getting consistently low rolls, the dice themselves could be biased. The saltwater test (look it up on Youtube for some solid instructional videos) is a decent way to check them for issues with balance, like internal air bubbles or subtle misshapenness. You might simply need new dice.



Even if there are imperfections in the dice they are not likely to make a significant difference.

Humans see patterns. We count hits and discount misses.

The actual amount of rolls you need to make to have a 95% chance of being average is staggering. And even if you had a 95% chance to roll average over those times, there would still be a 5% chance that your rolls at outliers.

You could roll 1 on a d20 10 times in a row and the 11th time you would still have a 5% chance to roll 1 again.

[bid]

So... since I really don't expect the improved critical hits feature to be reliable at all, are the other abilities of the Champion enough to make up for the lack and make sure my half-orc will be sufficiently frightening and capable of trampling her enemies at will?
Champion's other low-level feature is remarkable athlete which (mostly) adds a +2 to initiative once you reach level 7. And at level 10 you can double-up on dueling + defense styles.

Sword and board is strong. It hits just as hard as a greataxe (longsword+dueling = 1d8+2 with shield AC+2 vs greataxe = 1d12 with defense AC+1). And you can grab shield master to improve your battlefield control.

BM is best with GWM as you can use your 4 SD as precision attack to turn near misses into hits. The difference is high enough that champion should get an extra action surge at level 7, if you cared about optimal results.


The fighter chassis is strong enough that you should pick your archetype from your RP concept.

[Specter]

Even if there are imperfections in the dice they are not likely to make a significant difference.

Humans see patterns. We count hits and discount misses.

The actual amount of rolls you need to make to have a 95% chance of being average is staggering. And even if you had a 95% chance to roll average over those times, there would still be a 5% chance that your rolls at outliers.

You could roll 1 on a d20 10 times in a row and the 11th time you would still have a 5% chance to roll 1 again.

See also the Monte Carlo Fallacy. It's either broken dice or that.

[Vogonjeltz]

In my efforts to learn the system better I am entertaining myself creating characters. Current experiment is a half-orc fighter. I'm thinking of going the most simplistic and straight-forward route and going with the Champion Archetype as described in the PHB (more or less my only resource so far), but I'm worried that my brave half-orc's efficiency in battle will be hindered by having to rely too much on dice rolls for damage output. I have notoriously bad luck with dice, and if by some miracle rolling a 15 or higher counted as a critical hit, I doubt I'd see that happen more than once per month or so.

I'm planning to go with war hammer, longsword, handaxe and javelins for my weapons, with a big shield that can be used for bashing opponents as well as just hiding behind. Dueling fighting style out of the gate, mainly since the mental image of a big war hammer and a shield appeals to me.

So... since I really don't expect the improved critical hits feature to be reliable at all, are the other abilities of the Champion enough to make up for the lack and make sure my half-orc will be sufficiently frightening and capable of trampling her enemies at will?

Your dice rolls are going to follow the exact same distribution as everyone elses'.

The Champion presents the best sustained damage in the game precisely because it isn't reliant on limited use abilities, which makes it the most reliable class/subclass that exists.

[Klorox]

I love champions. Play them like a huge jock in high school. LOL, so much fun.

Half orc is definitely the way to go for them. When you start getting a lot of criticals, the half orc bonus feels like a baby smite, which is awesome.

Here's a few bonuses I've picked up with them:

-Max out strength ASAP

-Two weapon fighting feat and style is worth it. You attack more, you critical hit more. As a half orc, that's more 1d8's to chuck.

-The luck feat and magic initiate feat (faerie fire) is nice if you don't get advantage a lot

The class is a lot of fun and you it's not underpowered. It can be a little boring if you see others using their abilities in complex ways, but there's nothing wrong with keeping the game simple.

[JAL_1138]

Even if there are imperfections in the dice they are not likely to make a significant difference.

Humans see patterns. We count hits and discount misses.

The actual amount of rolls you need to make to have a 95% chance of being average is staggering. And even if you had a 95% chance to roll average over those times, there would still be a 5% chance that your rolls at outliers.

You could roll 1 on a d20 10 times in a row and the 11th time you would still have a 5% chance to roll 1 again.

As a general point, confirmation bias is definitely a thing and I don't dispute that humans are wired to find patterns where there aren't any. However, manufacturing flaws can be severe enough that a die behaves like it's loaded, and it isn't always immediately obvious.

I own some dice that have manufacturing flaws that give them a definite, noticeable tendency to land on certain numbers, or not land on certain numbers. For a couple of the worst examples, one has a slightly bowed-out face and misshapen edges on one face, next to a somewhat caved-in face--hardly noticeable at a glance, but if you set it with the bowed-out face down, it wobbles badly, and the slightest nudge of the die or the table sends it onto a different face (whereas the others are steady). It is nearly--not quite, but nearly--impossible for it to land on the side opposite the one bowed-out face. I have another, one of those godawful Crystal Caste barrel-shaped dice (bought primarily as a curiosity), which has a strong weight imbalance such that it's extremely likely to roll off the 20 (or any number near the 2) and onto the 2, halting its forward momentum and rolling back opposite its initial direction and rocking back and forth until it settles onto the 2. Once in a while, it'll rock a bit farther and land on another number just past the 2. In a saltwater test, the 2 floats to the top (tilted slightly), without exception. With those two, it's onvious pretty quickly, but more subtle manufacturing flaws (bad edges, bad faces, or bad air bubbles) could definitely have an impact.

EDIT: That's not to say you need to shell out for high-end "precision" or casino-grade dice. Chessex and Koplow will do just fine in the absence of a major manufacturing flaw; you might notice on 5 rolls in a thousand, or ten thousand, if they're only a little off. I'm talking about flaws bad enough they're functionally "loaded," which can and do slip through QC sometimes.

[djreynolds]

If you can get some way of getting advantage, your crit chance is 20%. You'll see crits quite a lot. You mentioned you wanted to go with a shield. Picking up Shield Master is a really good choice - you get some defensive bonuses, and it means you can shove someone prone with a bonus action (RAW you can shove before you attack) and get that sweet advantage on all your attacks.


Everyone relies on dice rolls for damage at some point. The Champion is fine and if going Dueling/shield, I'd pick up the Shield Master feat: the bonus action Shove is your bread and butter. A prone enemy will get you Advantage on melee attacks, doubling your chance to crit. As Fighters keep getting more attacks, it countinues to get better as you level.


This is how you make an optimized Champ:

- Find a reliable way to get advantage (such as the Mounted Combatant feat, or Barbarian's Reckless Attack).
- Find ways to add damage dice to your attacks (such as the Rogue's sneak attack, or Ranger's Colossus Slayer).


Champions love:
Half Orc
Defense Style
Big, single-die weapon
Great Weapon Master

From there, you have some options, because you want Advantage and/or ways to pump damage.
Barb2 - Reckless Attack for easy advantage

Magic Initiate: Hex or Hunter's Mark - keys off dump stats, but doesn't use them for anything. Adds a d6 to Damage, once per long rest. Can also pick up GFB or BB. This would reduce your standard damage at 5+ (2d12+2Str to d12+d8+2Str+Rider) but it focuses more damage on a single attack roll. Good for Multiclassing builds.

Mounted Combatant - free Advantage in Medium and Smaller creatures while on horseback
--

Another good Champ build is to run Duellist, Shield, Rapier, and Rogue levels, take Shield Mastery. This lets you Probe for Advantage, triggering Sneak Attack and then increasing Crit odds. In all reality, this can be better damage output than a straight Champion, except that you lose an attack on the shove.
D12 Brutal = 3d12 or 19.5 damage
D8 Brutal + SA + Duellist = 3d8+2d6+2 or 22.5 damage

100% correct, everyone. Expertise with athletics is almost guaranteed advantage. Advantage is the key.

2 levels of barbarian great for heavy weapons and TWFing with strength

shield master, the easiest for strength based, and with the new UA skills as feats "Brawny" now no multiclassing needed

certain spells like faerie fire--- magic initiate or multiclass

even hiding

mounted combat

You can give up an attack to trip someone with an athletics contest

It is a fun class to play. Yes it could use some work, Yes it does not jump off the page, that is not the class's fault, the champion did not write him/herself.

IMO the champion is as good as the battlemaster or EK are

[RSP]

If considering the UA, Silver-Tongued works well as a substitution for Brawny (or as an addition). Trade the 1/2 movement to stand from Shove for 2 turns worth of Advantage and going against Insight rather than whichever is better between Athletics and Acrobatics, though it also has the 'failure=cannot attempt on same target for an hour' clause.

Pair that with Elven Accuracy and GWM and you're fairly likely to getting the Bonus Action attack most rounds at triple Advantage (to make up for that -5 to hit).

My current back up character is built with these Feats as an 8th level Eladrin Champion. Should be fun to play.

[TripleD]

Champions offer a lot in out-of-combat options as well.

Here's the the thing: to be an effective champion in battle you only really need CON and either DEX or STR (depending on how you play it). The remaining stats can be placed any way you want. This combos nicely with the fact that you will have plenty of ASIs to spare.

Want to be the party encyclopedia? Make INT your third highest stat and pick up "Skilled" for all the knowledge skills.

Want to dip your toes in magic? Grab "Magic Initiaite" or "Ritual Caster" and stock up on utility spells that your dedicated caster may jot have room for.

"Actor", "Inspiring Leader", "Healer"... these are all feats you can take a chance on or build around.

[Citan]

Easily the weakest sub-class in the game RAW but still not terrible because 5e is generally balanced.

Improves substantially if you use the popular crit rule where you roll one set of die and max the other on a critical hit. But even with that rule the sub-class is still easily last place.

An optimized champion does perform better than a non-optimized character though.
I really don't see how a 10% increase in "auto-double hit" that can stack with whatever buff you can get would make a Champion weaker than the other archetypes.
Just do the actual math against real high-level creatures and you will see that it is by very far the best.
Don't forget that critical hit = autohit, WHATEVER AC THE CREATURE HAD.
And without any multiclass, just taking Sharpshooter (for the "ignore cover" + "no disadvantage on long range") or Shield Master (for the "Shove as bonus action") greatly improves your efficiency.
There is also a fat chance you have at least one ally in the party that can improve your efficiency, either by providing advantage (Faerie Fire, Entangle, etc) or increasing your damage (Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Crusader's Mantle, Divine Favor).
In terms of resilience the Survivor ability, while ineffective against big threats, can help much in the long run. You can also easily max your attack stat and still stack several great offensive feats such as Sentinel or Mage Slayer.
And if you don't care about the end-career features for whatever reasons, you could stack a Champion 15 with Sorcerer (Haste), Warlock (Hex, Armor of Agathys), Wizard (Absorb Elements, Haste), Paladin (smite, Bless, smite spells), Rogue (Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge), Ranger (Horde Breaker, Hunter's Mark), War Cleric (Bless, Divine Favor, Crusader's Mantle) or Lore Bard (Heat Metal, Faerie Fire, Blindness, Cutting Words, Expertise) to expand your capabilities and be a little more self-reliant.

So technically Champion is arguably superior to any other offense-wise, mainly because the critical hit implies any AC bypass and it's an always-on. Whereas Eldricht Knight will be better 1/day (Greater Invisibility) and Battlemaster better probably 2-3/day depending on circumstances (number of short rest, kind of enemies encountered, although high-level Precision manoeuver should be usually enough to ensure the hit unless very back luck on both attack roll and manoeuver roll).


In my efforts to learn the system better I am entertaining myself creating characters. Current experiment is a half-orc fighter. I'm thinking of going the most simplistic and straight-forward route and going with the Champion Archetype as described in the PHB (more or less my only resource so far), but I'm worried that my brave half-orc's efficiency in battle will be hindered by having to rely too much on dice rolls for damage output. I have notoriously bad luck with dice, and if by some miracle rolling a 15 or higher counted as a critical hit, I doubt I'd see that happen more than once per month or so.

I'm planning to go with war hammer, longsword, handaxe and javelins for my weapons, with a big shield that can be used for bashing opponents as well as just hiding behind. Dueling fighting style out of the gate, mainly since the mental image of a big war hammer and a shield appeals to me.

So... since I really don't expect the improved critical hits feature to be reliable at all, are the other abilities of the Champion enough to make up for the lack and make sure my half-orc will be sufficiently frightening and capable of trampling her enemies at will?
To make your critical more reliable, either grant advantage yourself (Shove -Shield Master is good for that) or work together with allies (too many options to list).
Also, stack feats at your leisure for more versatility (if you are afraid getting bored "as-is") or offense (Sentinel, Mage Slayer for example) or defense (Defensive Duelist, Dual Wielder etc).

A stupid but still nice build could be to stack TWF style with Tavern Brawler, Dual Wielder and Mobile (more range) or Alert (better Initiative) feat. When you have chosen one enemy and need to get advantage, rush to him and use one of your attacks to Shove opponent prone (technically you can do this with your bonus action if you want, exactly as if you had Shield Master feat) then hit away. If you already have advantage, you can use your bonus action to smash him with your shield. You lose out on damage compared to using a weapon, but that way you still have much protection. This also allows you to get Protection style (since you are a Champion) to protect others when needed without hampering your offense (well, except the fact you use your reaction on that instead of OA ^^).

[Beechgnome]

Shield Master is great for knocking guys prone and then hitting them twice with advantage. Your chances of a crit in those cases almost doubles.

But it's worth figuring out what your allies like to do, because if they have abilities or lots of spells that grant advantage in other ways, you may be better off going great weapon fighter and swinging a great axe. I'm thinking allies like the Wolf totem barbarian or a caster who looks to hit opponents with Blindness or faerie fire. If that's how your team likes to roll, then let them worry about giving you advantage and feel free to swing a big axe. (You might want to take defence as your first fighting style in that case).

The champion's 7th level ability is also a nice perk for initiative and if you like to jump around and perform feats of daring-do on the battlefield. It can be lots of fun.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I really don't see how a 10% increase in "auto-double hit" that can stack with whatever buff you can get would make a Champion weaker than the other archetypes.
Just do the actual math against real high-level creatures and you will see that it is by very far the best.
Don't forget that critical hit = autohit, WHATEVER AC THE CREATURE HAD.
Um. If you were going to miss on a roll of 19, that creature was going to kill you regardless.


In terms of resilience the Survivor ability, while ineffective against big threats, can help much in the long run. You can also easily max your attack stat and still stack several great offensive feats such as Sentinel or Mage Slayer.
It's also 18th level, which practically speaking means it'll never come up.


So technically Champion is arguably superior to any other offense-wise, mainly because the critical hit implies any AC bypass and it's an always-on. Whereas Eldricht Knight will be better 1/day (Greater Invisibility) and Battlemaster better probably 2-3/day depending on circumstances (number of short rest, kind of enemies encountered, although high-level Precision manoeuver should be usually enough to ensure the hit unless very back luck on both attack roll and manoeuver roll).
EK can probably sling one or two defense-boosting spells/round, and War Magic gives them perhaps the game's best offense from 7 to 11... and also very good from 3-5, and competitive from 5-7 and 11-20th.


Also, stack feats at your leisure for more versatility (if you are afraid getting bored "as-is") or offense (Sentinel, Mage Slayer for example) or defense (Defensive Duelist, Dual Wielder etc).
The Champion's lack of interesting features on its own makes it more dependent on feats, to be sure. Thankfully the Fighter still gets lots of ASIs and has minimal stat requirements.

[bid]

Just do the actual math against real high-level creatures and you will see that it is by very far the best.
Don't forget that critical hit = autohit, WHATEVER AC THE CREATURE HAD.
Technically, that's a Str18 level 5 character against AC27. Kinda pointless.

If you're ever against such a target, caster save cantrips would do most of the damage and BM precision attack would help more. (please don't tell me you'd hack at it for 20 rounds, to roll 19 4 times)

[Citan]

1. Um. If you were going to miss on a roll of 19, that creature was going to kill you regardless.

2. EK can probably sling one or two defense-boosting spells/round, and War Magic gives them perhaps the game's best offense from 7 to 11... and also very good from 3-5, and competitive from 5-7 and 11-20th.

3. The Champion's lack of interesting features on its own makes it more dependent on feats, to be sure. Thankfully the Fighter still gets lots of ASIs and has minimal stat requirements.



1. That's an "interesting" way to look at it. You know, that's equally true for any other Fighter in that case even EK (when a creature has more than +13 to hit, even Shield won't help much). Also, let's remember that a Champion fighter could also crit from a distance, so if that creature is really dangerous there is that.
Finally, how is the dangerosity of the creature relevant to the fact that Champion is far better at damaging its than other archetypes?

2. An EK who does this will very quickly run out of spells. Let's not forget he has 11 slots all in all and no regen. And War Magic is far from giving them "best offense", it's just a good to great alternative when in melee range and without GWM, and only if you have weapon cantrips or invested heavily in INT (even in this case, beyond weapon cantrips, no cantrip can come close to 3x weapon attacks in terms of damage, with or without feats).

3. No argue on that, but isn't that kinda the point of this archetype, being the simplest to play by default? :)

[Creyzi4j]

If you want you can get theb Orcish Fury feat if ur lucky with crits. Wielding a greataxe will give you a 5d12 on a critical

[Creyzi4j]

Technically, that's a Str18 level 5 character against AC27. Kinda pointless.

If you're ever against such a target, caster save cantrips would do most of the damage and BM precision attack would help more. (please don't tell me you'd hack at it for 20 rounds, to roll 19 4 times)

What kind of creature has a 27 AC?
18 to 21 is already very high on levels 10-15.
A Monster with an AC 27 is probably homebrewed by the DM coz he fears weapon and spell attcks

[Lombra]

Grab mounted combatant and dual wielder and ride a horse dual-wielding lances. That's the ultimate mundane crit-machine. And don't multiclass unless it's in barbarian to get always-on advantage.

Edit: an argument could be made for a GWM greatsword wielder with the great weapon fighting style, but fancy > mainstream.

[RSP]

A stupid but still nice build could be to stack TWF style with Tavern Brawler, Dual Wielder and Mobile (more range) or Alert (better Initiative) feat. When you have chosen one enemy and need to get advantage, rush to him and use one of your attacks to Shove opponent prone (technically you can do this with your bonus action if you want, exactly as if you had Shield Master feat) then hit away.

Bonus Action attacks cannot be used as the Shove action without an Ability that specifically allows it. Only attacks gained via the Attack Action can be swapped out that way. But you could use an attack action attack to shove, then have your TWF attack to attack at Advantage, along with any extra attacks. Shield Master would still workout much better.

[Citan]

Bonus Action attacks cannot be used as the Shove action without an Ability that specifically allows it. Only attacks gained via the Attack Action can be swapped out that way. But you could use your attack action to shove, then your TWF attack to attack at Advantage. Shield Master would still workout much better.
Ooops, right, forgot about that bit. Thanks for the correction.

Allow me to correct you in return: a Shove or Grapple does not take all attacks from Attack action (which you seem to imply with your wording at least).

So, on a dual-wielding Fighter, it's not that big of a difference since he gets that many attacks per Attack action.
More generally, there is really no difference on any dual-wielding character since
1) Unless very specific situations, you want to Shove ASAP to get advantage on all remaining attacks.
2) By RAW you are allowed to move not only between action types, but also between any two weapon attacks from Attack action.

So for any dual-wielder, using Shove "as bonus action before taking Attack action" (Shield Master) or "as one attack from Attack action before using TWF bonus action to make another weapon attack" (TWF) is strictly the same unless I missed something. Because you get three total "attacks" in the end, of which the first will be used to Shove.
So I don't see how Shield Master would "work better"? Unless you are talking about the lesser damage due to using a shield? I think it's a fair trade for keeping a +2 AC personally.

On a Paladin though, Shield Master would indeed be much better since Paladins are usually not dual-wielding and cannot afford that particular feat combo I was suggesting.

Conversely, that is one thing that can make high-level Fighters precious on battlefield when paired with some AOE caster or the like: being able to Shove up to 4 close-by creatures in a single turn to reduce their chance of dispersing before the nuke is launched is a situational feature, but one that is extremely tasty when arising. ^^

[ad_hoc]

See also the Monte Carlo Fallacy. It's either broken dice or that.

...Yes...that is what this addresses:

"You could roll 1 on a d20 10 times in a row and the 11th time you would still have a 5% chance to roll 1 again."



EDIT: That's not to say you need to shell out for high-end "precision" or casino-grade dice. Chessex and Koplow will do just fine in the absence of a major manufacturing flaw; you might notice on 5 rolls in a thousand, or ten thousand, if they're only a little off. I'm talking about flaws bad enough they're functionally "loaded," which can and do slip through QC sometimes.

It's possible, sure. I just don't think it happens to the frequency that people think.

I mean, I use dice from a bulk purchase I made that I would presume were a bunch of manufacturer's defects and they're all fine.

I've played a lot of poker hands. I've seen a lot of crazy runs of cards. I've had runs where I lost with a 95% chance or more to win 10 or more times in a row. I've had months of continued losses. But, when I analyze the results in my poker tracker software I see that I'm still within a reasonable standard deviation from the average. It's just the way probabilities work.

[Grod_The_Giant]

1. That's an "interesting" way to look at it. You know, that's equally true for any other Fighter in that case even EK (when a creature has more than +13 to hit, even Shield won't help much). Also, let's remember that a Champion fighter could also crit from a distance, so if that creature is really dangerous there is that.
Finally, how is the dangerosity of the creature relevant to the fact that Champion is far better at damaging its than other archetypes?
How many things will you fight at 3rd level with an AC of 24 or more? How many things will you fight at 15th with an AC of 28? Thin

2. An EK who does this will very quickly run out of spells. Let's not forget he has 11 slots all in all and no regen. And War Magic is far from giving them "best offense", it's just a good to great alternative when in melee range and without GWM, and only if you have weapon cantrips or invested heavily in INT (even in this case, beyond weapon cantrips, no cantrip can come close to 3x weapon attacks in terms of damage, with or without feats).[/quote]
I mean per encounter, sorry. It's a lot better than 1/day.

Weapon Cantrip + Attack trumps two attacks, hands-down. My understanding of the DPR is that they're pretty competitive with two attacks at most levels, doing slightly better if you hit with the rider and slightly worse if you don't. And given that you can do your normal extra attack routine whenever it would be better... I'll admit that three shots with a -5/+10 feat is better, though, so I was wrong there; from 11th level on it's only "very good."


3. No argue on that, but isn't that kinda the point of this archetype, being the simplest to play by default? :)
Ehhh... sort of, I guess? It works for some people, I guess, but it kind of feels like (one of) the problem(s) the 3.5 Fighter had-- it looks simple, but you need more system mastery than one would expect to make it effective.

[RSP]

Ooops, right, forgot about that bit. Thanks for the correction.

Allow me to correct you in return: a Shove or Grapple does not take all attacks from Attack action (which you seem to imply with your wording at least).

I was aware, but thanks for pointing out the bad wording: didn't mean for it to convey it took all the attack action to shove, but should probably have been "attack action attack." I'll correct and thanks again for pointing it out.

[Klorox]

How many things will you fight at 3rd level with an AC of 24 or more? How many things will you fight at 15th with an AC of 28? Thin

2. An EK who does this will very quickly run out of spells. Let's not forget he has 11 slots all in all and no regen. And War Magic is far from giving them "best offense", it's just a good to great alternative when in melee range and without GWM, and only if you have weapon cantrips or invested heavily in INT (even in this case, beyond weapon cantrips, no cantrip can come close to 3x weapon attacks in terms of damage, with or without feats).
I mean per encounter, sorry. It's a lot better than 1/day.

Weapon Cantrip + Attack trumps two attacks, hands-down. My understanding of the DPR is that they're pretty competitive with two attacks at most levels, doing slightly better if you hit with the rider and slightly worse if you don't. And given that you can do your normal extra attack routine whenever it would be better... I'll admit that three shots with a -5/+10 feat is better, though, so I was wrong there; from 11th level on it's only "very good."


Ehhh... sort of, I guess? It works for some people, I guess, but it kind of feels like (one of) the problem(s) the 3.5 Fighter had-- it looks simple, but you need more system mastery than one would expect to make it effective.[/QUOTE]

How is an attack plus cantrip better than the multiple attacks an EK would normally get?

[Specter]

How is an attack plus cantrip better than the multiple attacks an EK would normally get?

The cantrip at level 11 will deal 2d8+weapon+STR. The attack will deal weapon+STR. Assuming a longsword and 20STR, you'll deal 28 on average. With three attacks, you'll deal 3d8+15, averaging 28,5. But the cantrip also has a side benefit, like damaging a nearby foe or locking the foe in position.

[Cl0001]

The champion can be very viable. Every single one of their ability is always on and effective. This makes them very powerful in long dungeon crawls/combats because they have no resources to to manage. So at the end of the day when the casters only have 1/2 their spell slots left, the champion fighter still has the extended crit range, round based healing and extra fighting style. All in all, they have they usually don't make extremely powerful builds, but are often steady and reliable strong builds.

[scalyfreak]

First off: My dice.

It's an online roller in a closed (unlisted) campaign I'm in. It seems I roll perfectly fine as long as it's not a combat situation. All of a sudden I can't hit anything with any weapon, even after adding bardic inspiration to my roll. Very annoying. I suspect I'm partly deluding myself though (I play poker too), and seeing patterns where there aren't any. Still, very annoying.

Second, thanks again to everyone. My half-orc fighter ended up being not entirely optimized in the end, if what I've read in this thread is any indication. I have a character concept in mind that I wanted to stay close to, so I made the best choices I could think of with that in mind. As long as I can look back at an encounter and know that my character made a meaningful contribution, I will be happy. I get most of my enjoyment from the fluff and roleplaying itself anyway.

Oona Wendel, artisan apprentice turned mercenary, has been born. :smallsmile:

[ad_hoc]

(I play poker too)

This is off topic but may be very valuable advice for you.

If this sort of thinking is your inclination I would not advise you to play poker (unless you play for entertainment then have fun!).

In poker you need to be dispassionate about the outcome. EV is the only thing you should worry about. Being results oriented will kill your game.

[scalyfreak]

This is off topic but may be very valuable advice for you.

If this sort of thinking is your inclination I would not advise you to play poker (unless you play for entertainment then have fun!).


Bizarrely, it isn't when I play poker. Which I only ever do for fun anyway. :smallsmile:

[Creyzi4j]

How many things will you fight at 3rd level with an AC of 24 or more? How many things will you fight at 15th with an AC of 28? Thin
.
Level 3 = AC 24?

If there's a monster with an AC of 24 your fighter would need to roll an 17/18 or higher for a hit. That is just too imbalanced on how you build your encounters. (and this is considering ur fighter having magic weapons and buffs)
I have never encountered a monster with higher than 20 AC until I got to level 6-7ish.

If there's a monster with an AC of 28. Your fighter would need to roll a natural 20 for them to be able to hit.

Even the tarrasque (biggest CR monster) in manual has lower AC than that.

No wonder weapon atks are underpowered in ur games. The monsters are too much in favor against them.

[djreynolds]

1. Remember all the classes were designed before these two cantrips came out, and for better or worse, BB/GFB have changed the game.

2. Survivor comes way to late, probably to prevent class "poaching"

3. In a game with standard array, a fighter will quickly have a maxed attack stat before any class.

4. Yes battle master maneuvers are cool and so reckless attack... but you can easily get by with just shield master and expertise/double proficiency in athletics

5. The champion archetype, which I love to play, is woefully written by the designers. It is very vanilla, some people like vanilla, and some people do not

6. The champion just doesn't jump off the page or screen here at the forum, but everytime I roll 19s and 18s... I wish I had taken it.

[D-naras]

I played a Half-orc Barb 5/Champion 3. Best level 8 warrior I could think of. Any Fighter is great thanks to their chassis and a Champion's 19-20 crit range is the most visceral fun D&D offers me personally. While the math says not to get too excited about that ability, rolling dice is great fun and double the chance to roll more dice makes for happy time. :smallsmile:

[Tanarii]

How is an attack plus cantrip better than the multiple attacks an EK would normally get?Because generally speaking, it's more damage. This is even true with PHB cantrips. Bonus action attack + Poison Spray > 2-4 attacks. Especially once undercutting saves dramatically increases the DPR 3d12 to 4d12 Poison Spray. Acid Spray (against 2 opponents) and Shocking Grasp (against metal wearing opponents) generally do more damage too.

Although this starts to break down when you allow broken feat combos like GWM and PAM in play. That's when you need to allow the power creep of the SCAG cantrips for EKs, to balance that out. OTOH that's why Feats are an optional rule. They aren't properly balanced.

[djreynolds]

Bizarrely, it isn't when I play poker. Which I only ever do for fun anyway. :smallsmile:

Whatever you decide to do is fine, IMO allow for multiclassing.

1. I often find war cleric is a good dip for champion as it gives healing and divine favor and protection from good/evil

2. I like rogue, but sometimes having a 13 in dex and wearing plate... seems silly. But this how I have ran my S&B champions forever. With a short sword (rapier), shield and plate.... very close in combatant. Google "Savage Duelist" a lot of good ideas there. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiXypqd5Z7UAhWFVyYKHWw8Dj0QFggkMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fburrowowl.net%2F2014%2F10%2Fthe-5e-savage-duelist%2F&usg=AFQjCNGtchHj3TFIoeG4zHLGIAlrTYXiVA&sig2=-0Uti7cL9_DDmzZWT2xHJw

3. 3 levels of bard works on many "level" and 2 more of paladin... now you just need 15 of champion

4. It really depends on whether you roll or use standard array, if you have 14 dex, than half-plate champion barbarian rogue is very nice. And remember some advice on the forum comes from Adventurer League experiences, some of mine

5. Ranger's horde breaker is awesome to have and you may have the wisdom for it if you took resilient wisdom

6. Gaming wise and tactics, I find the champion challenging to play well. Because all you have is you movement, action, reaction, and bonus action. So try to find feats/styles for all of these.

7. Feats like sentinel are good for any build

[CaptainSarathai]

This is off topic but may be very valuable advice for you.

If this sort of thinking is your inclination I would not advise you to play poker (unless you play for entertainment then have fun!).

In poker you need to be dispassionate about the outcome. EV is the only thing you should worry about. Being results oriented will kill your game.

Blackjack, homie. You can't even bluff...
I have a love of stats and probability, which borders on the insane. If you want a game where you play straight averages, you play blackjack.
There's a casino about 45mins from my house, I'll take $100 and sit there all night drinking free/cheap beverages. I figure if I end up "down," I've paid a bar tab. Over a long stint though, playing the average gets you close enough to advantage that I almost always walk out up a few bucks. Still, averages are averages - I walked out up $400 once, and then walked out without my original $100 the next two times I went.


Whatever you decide to do is fine, IMO allow for multiclassing.
Absolutely. The Champion is the most front-loaded Fighter archetype. It just doesn't get a huge return for sticking with the class long haul. I normally dip 3 levels of BatMaster, personally, but I could just as easily see going Champion if you don't need the maneuvers.

[Klorox]

I think the champion is in this edition to make the casual gamer feel good at the table.

Your resources are basically all unlimited, and you're powerful enough. Could somebody min/max a better warrior? Sure. But this is simple. It's effective. It's fun for that player who is showing up to hang out with friends and might not be 100% invested in the game.

I'm not saying that's the only player who can play the champion, but it certainly works for that type of player.

[Sirdar]

I think the champion is in this edition to make the casual gamer feel good at the table.

Your resources are basically all unlimited, and you're powerful enough. Could somebody min/max a better warrior? Sure. But this is simple. It's effective. It's fun for that player who is showing up to hang out with friends and might not be 100% invested in the game.

I'm not saying that's the only player who can play the champion, but it certainly works for that type of player.

I agree. I also see the Champion as the natural yardstick for comparison of (martial) classes. If I was the lead designer of D&D 6e, I would first do a Fighter class/subclass like the Champion in order to determine a standard for the power of each level. Then I would design a Battle Master (or something similar) and try to balance the subclass features with the Champions.

[krunchyfrogg]

I think multiclassing a champion 11/swashbuckler 9 would result in so many crazy criticals. If you're dual-wielding, maybe 5/15 is a better split, since you can only sneak attack once per turn anyway.

Criticals double sneak dice, right?

Champion 3/Paladin 17 might be awesome too.

[bid]

The Champion is the most front-loaded Fighter archetype.
That's a misguided belief based on fantasy and not facts.

Lets have a "fair" fight where a half-orc fighter 3, armed with a greataxe, manages to always have advantage. He does 1d12+3 damage and crits for an additional 2d12. Against a normal opponent he does around 7-8 damage per turn overall.

He will also be attacked and get hit every 2 rounds for 5 damage. With 31 hp he should drop after 7 hits, but lets make him lucky and last 20 rounds instead if 14. The basic fighter chassis will do around 170 damage during that time.

- as a champion, he crits on 19... which happens slightly less than every 10 attacks. So something like 26 extra damage.

- as a BM, he can use his SD on riposte, each doing 1d12+3+1d8 and add something like 45 extra damage over 4 rounds. Lets give more chance and not use advantage on riposte, for 28 damage.

Both archetypes added 15-25% extra damage before needing a short rest.


So... here's how deep into fantasy we had to go to give champion a fair fight:
- half-orc with its best weapon
- always advantage on your turn, never on reaction
- more hp to last 50% longer
In a more typical case at level 5, you'd need 40 rounds of combat without short rest. That's 8 encounters of 5 rounds, a full day's worth skipping both recommended short rests. Champion cannot compete before level 11.


tl;dr
BM is front-loaded, champion must wait until level 10+ to catch up on damage.

[Tanarii]

T- as a BM, he can use his SD on riposte, each doing 1d12+3+1d8 and add something like 45 extra damage over 4 rounds. Lets give more chance and not use advantage on riposte, for 28 damage.I always see people bring up Riposte. Why? You can miss a riposte. You can't miss on most of the other features manuevers.

(I totally agree than Battle Master Combat Superiority > Champion Improved Crit, at least at level 3.)

[RSP]

I always see people bring up Riposte. Why? You can miss a riposte. You can't miss on most of the other features manuevers.

(I totally agree than Battle Master Combat Superiority > Champion Improved Crit, at least at level 3.)

Great, though, if multi classed with Rogue for off turn SA, or Pally for Smites.

It's okay otherwise, as an extra attack isn't bad.

[bid]

I always see people bring up Riposte. Why? You can miss a riposte. You can't miss on most of the other features manuevers.
Riposte adds 14 damage average, even if you miss half the time it's an expected 7 damage.

The other good maneuver is precision, but you have to apply some intelligence. The optimal use is when you know your roll misses, but you are 2 points away from hitting. If you turn a miss into a hit, you add 9.5 damage 88% of the time, or an expected of 8.3... not really better.

All others will add 1d8 to the hit, for an expected of 4.5... I'll take my chance to miss.

[Tanarii]

Riposte adds 14 damage average, even if you miss half the time it's an expected 7 damage.Yeah sorry wasn't thinking in terms of DPR. OTOH you're giving enemies free reign to move away from you, since you just used your reaction. Riposte seems nice, but on par with a lot of the other top tier maneuvers.

[RSP]

Yeah sorry wasn't thinking in terms of DPR. OTOH you're giving enemies free reign to move away from you, since you just used your reaction. Riposte seems nice, but on par with a lot of the other top tier maneuvers.

Yeah but most characters don't have a reliable use for reactions, outside of OAs which are completely dependent on the actions of the enemies. Getting an extra attack out of an otherwise unused action, isn't a bad thing.

[Tanarii]

Yeah but most characters don't have a reliable use for reactions, outside of OAs which are completely dependent on the actions of the enemies. Getting an extra attack out of an otherwise unused action, isn't a bad thing.
It's not unused. It's deterrent to stop them from moving away. Once you use it, you no longer have any deterrent.

Edit: This is especially important for a warrior type.

[bid]

It's not unused. It's deterrent to stop them from moving away. Once you use it, you no longer have any deterrent.

Edit: This is especially important for a warrior type.
Yep, it adds an contraint. You can use it on the round they charge you since they won't have enough movement to reach the back row. Once you are surrounded, you must wait for the last skirmisher and hope it will miss. Using a 3rd SD on riposte is a rare occurence.

[Specter]

That's a misguided belief based on fantasy and not facts.

Lets have a "fair" fight where a half-orc fighter 3, armed with a greataxe, manages to always have advantage. He does 1d12+3 damage and crits for an additional 2d12. Against a normal opponent he does around 7-8 damage per turn overall.

He will also be attacked and get hit every 2 rounds for 5 damage. With 31 hp he should drop after 7 hits, but lets make him lucky and last 20 rounds instead if 14. The basic fighter chassis will do around 170 damage during that time.

- as a champion, he crits on 19... which happens slightly less than every 10 attacks. So something like 26 extra damage.

- as a BM, he can use his SD on riposte, each doing 1d12+3+1d8 and add something like 45 extra damage over 4 rounds. Lets give more chance and not use advantage on riposte, for 28 damage.

Both archetypes added 15-25% extra damage before needing a short rest.

So... here's how deep into fantasy we had to go to give champion a fair fight:
- half-orc with its best weapon
- always advantage on your turn, never on reaction
- more hp to last 50% longer
In a more typical case at level 5, you'd need 40 rounds of combat without short rest. That's 8 encounters of 5 rounds, a full day's worth skipping both recommended short rests. Champion cannot compete before level 11.

tl;dr
BM is front-loaded, champion must wait until level 10+ to catch up on damage.

First of all, your math is not right. On average, 1d12+3 is 9,5.

- What's 'fantasy' about a half-orc using the best crit weapon?
- The 19 crit is frequent enough (+5%) that your comment doesn't matter, but with advantage you have +10% of critting than anyone else. That's huge.
- Riposte misses, as stated above, and requires a melee attack (whereas a Champion can chew through mages and archers all the same).
- It will also cost you an opportunity atgack, as stated.

[bid]

First of all, your math is not right. On average, 1d12+3 is 9,5.
With 100% hit, right?
-adv maul - 1d12+3 * .75 + 2d12*.975 = 8.39



- The 19 crit is frequent enough (+5%) that your comment doesn't matter, but with advantage you have +10% of critting than anyone else. That's huge.
I addressed that. Champion will crit .19 overall, of which .0925 will be added from rolling 19. A yuge 1.2 extra damage per turn, or 12 every 10 rounds.



- Riposte misses, as stated above, and requires a melee attack (whereas a Champion can chew through mages and archers all the same).
Riposte does 14 damage, you can miss half the time and still come ahead. I purposefully picked melee to make it fair to poor champion, see below.


So, your only point is dropping the half-orc to make a archer build. Which somehow still gets avantage every turn. Now those extra crits deal... 0.42 damage per turn. Now surviving 20 rounds isn't a fantasy anymore.

What about the BM? Precision attacks will add 1d8+3 * .88 ~ 6.56 damage for a total of 26 extra damage after the 20 rounds. That's what, 3 times the "huge" crits?


So... here's how deep into fantasy we had to go to give a ranged champion a fair fight:
- always advantage on your turn
- 4 times the hp to last 60 rounds without short rest


tl;dr
BM is front-loaded, ranged champion must wait until level 10+ to catch up on damage.

[RSP]

It's not unused. It's deterrent to stop them from moving away. Once you use it, you no longer have any deterrent.

Edit: This is especially important for a warrior type.

Really depends on party make up and what you're fighting. Most fights I've seen it's better to use a reaction to get a hit rather than hold onto it (saving reactions for defense is much more popular than for deterant).

Most cases I've seen, the opponent is only disengaging from the frontliner hacking away at it to actually flee.

There are certainly some set ups where the opposition may opt to strike at the casters in the back first, but I doubt one Opportunity Attack is going to prevent those who would use these strategies from doing so.

Is the threat from the Fighter bigger than that of the caster? If yes, go after caster, if not, stay on Fighter. Whether or not you'll get attacked isn't really in that decision unless they're so low on HPs that it would take them out, in which case the riposte would do that as well.

[Tanarii]

Is the threat from the Fighter bigger than that of the caster? If yes, go after caster, if not, stay on Fighter. Whether or not you'll get attacked isn't really in that decision unless they're so low on HPs that it would take them out, in which case the riposte would do that as well.It won't, because you're not getting to riposte if they don't attack you. And I've seen DMs take OAs into account, and have intelligent enemies take into account, as a DM.

But granted, an additional option for your reacting isn't a bad thing. It's just worth noting that if you're trying to control the enemies as a tanky warrior, it's an additional cost to using the ability. Depends on what you're goals are for your warrior. If it's damage output, which is the point being compared here, it's a lesser issue.

[RSP]

It won't, because you're not getting to riposte if they don't attack you. And I've seen DMs take OAs into account, and have intelligent enemies take into account, as a DM.

But granted, an additional option for your reacting isn't a bad thing. It's just worth noting that if you're trying to control the enemies as a tanky warrior, it's an additional cost to using the ability. Depends on what you're goals are for your warrior. If it's damage output, which is the point being compared here, it's a lesser issue.

Intelligent enemies should absolutely be played intelligently, including taking into account OA (this isn't meta gaming; any character with combat experience knows everyone can attempt these attacks, and hence they must look out for such) and maybe it's just my table, but I've never seen a possible OA actually prevent someone from doing an otherwise strategically smart move.

The intelligent enemy recognizes the Wizard is a bigger threat then the full plate warrior, so the OA is worth the chance to shutdown the bigger threat.

[NecroDancer]

For fighting style go defense if you aren't sure of what you want because +1 AC is always good. Being a fighter you can use any weapon so don't feel locked into a choice.

[Tanarii]

The intelligent enemy recognizes the Wizard is a bigger threat then the full plate warrior, so the OA is worth the chance to shutdown the bigger threat.
If you're in a came when that's regularly the case you don't need to Riposte, since you'll be getting a free attack anyway.

[RSP]

If you're in a came when that's regularly the case you don't need to Riposte, since you'll be getting a free attack anyway.

It depends what you're fighting and what the casters are doing. Not everything is intelligent enough to know, or care, about it. Plus, if the Wizard isn't doing anything directly offensive, that may influence what the enemy does.

Or just consider initiative options: Fighter goes and attacks the enemy. Enemy goes and attacks Fighter (Fighter uses Riposte). Wizard goes: enemy realizes there's a spellcaster. Fighter goes, enemy moves to attack the Wizard, Fighter get OA.

There's plenty of instances where a Fighter can gain an extra attack from Riposte, which is in many ways a better option than adding a damage die+effect that can fail.

[Tanarii]

First you're saying OAs don't matter because they don't happen often, then they happen often because intelligent enemies, and now you're back to the original argument? Make up your mind. :smallbiggrin:

[RSP]

First you're saying OAs don't matter because they don't happen often, then they happen often because intelligent enemies, and now you're back to the original argument? Make up your mind. :smallbiggrin:

Never said they don't matter: I said I've never known them to be an effective deterrent. The only time they act as a deterrent is if the OA will drop the moving character, and again, if one attack is going to drop the character, why not use Riposte and get that attack?

[bid]

Never said they don't matter: I said I've never known them to be an effective deterrent. The only time they act as a deterrent is if the OA will drop the moving character, and again, if one attack is going to drop the character, why not use Riposte and get that attack?
Because OA requires the target to move away, while riposte requires the target to attack you and miss. Why would anyone sane to both?

[Misterwhisper]

The main issue with champion it that it can not adapt to a fight's needs like just about every other subclass in the game.

You have a sword and board champion and are killing trash that is 3 CR below the party.
Swing and crit on 19/20 for a D8 or maybe even 3d8 if an orc.

The big villain has showed up and he is going to come right by you and you get one chance before he starts killing important npcs

Swing and crit on a 19/20 for a D8 or maybe 3d8 if an orc.

Champion has no resources of its own, no does it have any of its own abilities it can spend to put out more damage or control, or really anything else.

Every other fighter subclass and just about ever subclass for every class has some kind of resource it van use to increase their combat effectiveness when it is called on.

The champion is there for people who do not know how to play the game and need an idiot proof subclass, or for when an npc is there to just throw a little damage and take a hit or 2 without making any actual impact in the fight.

Rogues are close to being in the same boat, but they have monstrous skills and bonuses to skills, as well as tons of things that make them stand out. A fighter, especially a champion is there to just do one thing, fight. You would think that would mean they are the best at simple fighting. However, that is not the case at all.

Barbarians are also great at fighting but are also crazy hard to kill and have the most completely broken subclass in the game.

Bards can just plain do everything.

Clerics bring a spell list that can completely change each day to fit the situation and can still put up a decent fight.

Druids are full casters who have a mountain of free hp due to wild shape, and like the cleric can still be ok in a fight without it.

Monks are amazingly well rounded and get 3 normal attacks at level 5, and have solid defenses despite only a d8 hd.

Paladins are pretty much fighters with smiting and casting backup.

Rangers are rogue lite but with casting backup and nature support.

Rogue's are skill monsters and can cause ok damage and are hard to pin down.

Sorcerer are full arcane casters with metamagic... that is good enough on its own without ever even looking at subclasses.

Warlocks... Ok warlocks are the worst class in 5th edition, by miles. They might be ok if your DM allows you to be good enough to play with the normal classes, and if there is no multiclassing, someone might actually play one for more a than 2 or 3 levels.

Wizards, well the company is called Wizards of the Coast for a reason. Wizards are god like because the company will give them whatever they need to be in top just to make sure they are the best.

Fighter should be the best weapon based combatant in the game, but actually they are one of the worst

[Tanarii]

Never said they don't matter: I said I've never known them to be an effective deterrent. The only time they act as a deterrent is if the OA will drop the moving character, and again, if one attack is going to drop the character, why not use Riposte and get that attack?
Why blow a superiority die if you're going to OA anyway?

But yeah, we're both conflating multiple arguments at this point. They affect each other, but it's worth separating them a bit so we don't totally go in circles. (Or we can do that anyway I'm always down to argue for pages and pages. :smallwink: )

Riposte is obviously a very good option if you're getting attacked and were not going to get an OA. I got the dpr consideration wrong when asking bid about missing. Strictly speaking, it's good additional DPR before looking at the additional reaction cost, despite the chance to miss.

Then there either is, or is not, a deterrent consideration of a potential OA, which also depends on how your DM decides what creatures do. That's important because it affects tank ability.

Lastly, and affected by how your DM does the last part, Riposte is not so good if you were going to get an OA anyway, because now you're throwing away a superiority die that could have been better used anywhere. The DPR in this case becomes significantly worse than using another maneuver, because now it's only adding a superiority die of damage, plus it has a miss chance.

Most important, should we feel bad we managed to hijack a champion thread to talk about a maneuver? :smallbiggrin:

[scalyfreak]

Most important, should we feel bad we managed to hijack a champion thread to talk about a maneuver? :smallbiggrin:

Nah. I stopped reading it days ago :smallbiggrin:

[Citan]

1. Warlocks... Ok warlocks are the worst class in 5th edition, by miles. They might be ok if your DM allows you to be good enough to play with the normal classes, and if there is no multiclassing, someone might actually play one for more a than 2 or 3 levels.

2. Fighter should be the best weapon based combatant in the game, but actually they are one of the worst
1. That is imo totally uncalled for: as long as DM respects the guidelines Warlock is a very good class to play, it's just very special in the way you level your character by combining several different "sources" of features.

2. I really don't see how you could say that of a class that has so many ASIs available, unless you were speaking of games without multiclassing NOR feats.
Because otherwise... Between damage feats (GMW/Sharpshooter), control feats (Sentinel/Mage Slayer), peripheral/defensive feats (Defensive Duelist / Dual Wielder / Tavern Brawler / Shield Master / Alert Grappler), the Fighter is by far the best placed to optimize "weapon damage" apart from very high-level casters that would actually invest most of their resources on that specific goal (like Valor Bards or Bladesinger Wizards).
And still, casters would beat it as long as their resources last. While Fighter is always 100% efficient.

[Misterwhisper]

1. That is imo totally uncalled for: as long as DM respects the guidelines Warlock is a very good class to play, it's just very special in the way you level your character by combining several different "sources" of features.

2. I really don't see how you could say that of a class that has so many ASIs available, unless you were speaking of games without multiclassing NOR feats.
Because otherwise... Between damage feats (GMW/Sharpshooter), control feats (Sentinel/Mage Slayer), peripheral/defensive feats (Defensive Duelist / Dual Wielder / Tavern Brawler / Shield Master / Alert Grappler), the Fighter is by far the best placed to optimize "weapon damage" apart from very high-level casters that would actually invest most of their resources on that specific goal (like Valor Bards or Bladesinger Wizards).
And still, casters would beat it as long as their resources last. While Fighter is always 100% efficient.

1. That is my entire point, the only chance a warlock has of even being a viable class is if the DM holds their hand and lets them have short rests. A DM would have to go exactly by the "prescribed" adventure day of 2 short rests, and fights that last 2 to 3 rounds. This means that the warlock can never be the utility guy because he will not have enough spell slots between rests. The GM has to tailor his game around making the person who played the gimped class feel useful. No other class/subclass in the game is built around HAVING to have short rests, to everyone else a short rest is a nice breather and a welcome chance to get a little bit of oomph back, if they care at all about short rests. No class should be balanced with everyone else only due to the DM playing a certain style. I told them this during the play testing and nobody cared, they were all like, "Well, people will just have to change the pace a little if there is a Warlock in the group"

2. You act like other classes are going to be feat starved, or that the fighter gets tons more. Every class gets 5 except the rogue who gets 6 and the fighter who gets 7.
The issue is, how many feats/ASI does any build really need to be efficient.

Want to play a sword and board guy: Max Strength and take Shield Master.
Want to play an archer: Max Dex and take sharpshooter, MAYBE just MAYBE take skulker if you are a stealthy archer.
Want to kill things with a big 2 hander Max Strength and take PAM and GWM

Every class in the game has the ASI or feats to do what they are built for except maybe a Hexblade Warlock because they have completely conflicting stat requirements with cursebringe. Again blame Mike Mearls for that, he was obsessed with ripping off Arthas and getting a Frostmorne copy in the game.

All a fighter has is 2 more nifty things on the side or slightly better secondary or tertiary stats.

The existence of a MAX 500G item that gives a straight 19 strength or some more gold to get a strength nobody but a level 20 barbarian could get anyway or even higher, and a belt to get a 19 con much less of an emergency. Yes, I know he but is more than the gloves but it is still not that bad.

A fighter CAN get more feats or more stat bonuses but, do they really even need it?

All a fighter really cares about is getting a max stat in their attacking stat and MAYBE boosting their con if it was low.
If they are an Eldritch Knight they can put them to use boosting INT, but I have yet to ever see a single Eldritch Knight that threw spells that had saves on them in an actual game.

Fighters get 2 more options than other people, but those options are still just things the other classes could have chosen as well.

Ex.
A Barbarian that is going to smash people with a great axe will take GWM and max strength with 2 ASI left over for whatever.
A Fighter that is going to smash people with a great axe will take GWM and max strength with 4 ASI left over for whatever.

[Tanarii]

If you don't have short rests, that affects multiple character classes, not just Warlocks. Bards, Clerics, Druids, Fighters, Monks, Paladins and Warlocks all have major features tied to short rests.

So what you're describing as 'DM handholding' is a built in feature of the game. If the DM chooses to ignore it, he'll have to either warn players in advance so they can make their character choices accordingly, or house-rule something to adapt it. Likewise if the DM is regularly going to have very short or very long adventuring days, which will affect the balance between characters with many Long Rest recharging features vs almost none.

[Misterwhisper]

If you don't have short rests, that affects multiple character classes, not just Warlocks. Bards, Clerics, Druids, Fighters, Monks, Paladins and Warlocks all have major features tied to short rests.

So what you're describing as 'DM handholding' is a built in feature of the game. If the DM chooses to ignore it, he'll have to either warn players in advance so they can make their character choices accordingly, or house-rule something to adapt it. Likewise if the DM is regularly going to have very short or very long adventuring days, which will affect the balance between characters with many Long Rest recharging features vs almost none.

The other classes have enough resources to easily make it from one long rest to the other, the short rest is just a little boost back.

A druid ' s wild shape lasts long enough to cover multiple fights anyway, even without it they are full casters.

Bards, clerics, and druids are all full casters with a full compliment of spells even with zero short rests, they get their secondary effects back.

A monk has enough ki points that they can easily get by without the short rest, if they get 2 a day they can just blow kino whatever and not worry about it.

Paladins again get back a secondary effect.

Warlock have to have 2 short rests a day, just to come close to breaking even.

Even then, a sorcerer with sorcery points can just do their job better with no short rest needed.

Warlock has always been my favorite class from the day they were added to dnd, thew have the best fluff and RP value of any class ever, but their mechanics are horrible.

However this is a fighter thread, if you want to continue the c warlock discussion. Pm me.

[Beelzebubba]

The main issue with champion it that it can not adapt to a fight's needs like just about every other subclass in the game.

You have a sword and board champion and are killing trash that is 3 CR below the party.
Swing and crit on 19/20 for a D8 or maybe even 3d8 if an orc.

The big villain has showed up and he is going to come right by you and you get one chance before he starts killing important npcs

Swing and crit on a 19/20 for a D8 or maybe 3d8 if an orc.

Champion has no resources of its own, no does it have any of its own abilities it can spend to put out more damage or control, or really anything else.

Obvious comment is obvious: Protection fighting style, Sentinel feat, and Action Surge.

It's not quite the range of the Battlemaster, but it's a thing.

The rest of your comment has validity, but remember: the saying of 'If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' has a corollary: 'But what if it's a really really awesome hammer?'

[Citan]

1. That is my entire point, the only chance a warlock has of even being a viable class is if the DM holds their hand and lets them have short rests. A DM would have to go exactly by the "prescribed" adventure day of 2 short rests, and fights that last 2 to 3 rounds. This means that the warlock can never be the utility guy because he will not have enough spell slots between rests. The GM has to tailor his game around making the person who played the gimped class feel useful. No other class/subclass in the game is built around HAVING to have short rests, to everyone else a short rest is a nice breather and a welcome chance to get a little bit of oomph back, if they care at all about short rests. No class should be balanced with everyone else only due to the DM playing a certain style. I told them this during the play testing and nobody cared, they were all like, "Well, people will just have to change the pace a little if there is a Warlock in the group"

2. You act like other classes are going to be feat starved, or that the fighter gets tons more. Every class gets 5 except the rogue who gets 6 and the fighter who gets 7.
The issue is, how many feats/ASI does any build really need to be efficient.

Want to play a sword and board guy: Max Strength and take Shield Master.
Want to play an archer: Max Dex and take sharpshooter, MAYBE just MAYBE take skulker if you are a stealthy archer.
Want to kill things with a big 2 hander Max Strength and take PAM and GWM

Every class in the game has the ASI or feats to do what they are built for except maybe a Hexblade Warlock because they have completely conflicting stat requirements with cursebringe. Again blame Mike Mearls for that, he was obsessed with ripping off Arthas and getting a Frostmorne copy in the game.

All a fighter has is 2 more nifty things on the side or slightly better secondary or tertiary stats.

The existence of a MAX 500G item that gives a straight 19 strength or some more gold to get a strength nobody but a level 20 barbarian could get anyway or even higher, and a belt to get a 19 con much less of an emergency. Yes, I know he but is more than the gloves but it is still not that bad.

A fighter CAN get more feats or more stat bonuses but, do they really even need it?

All a fighter really cares about is getting a max stat in their attacking stat and MAYBE boosting their con if it was low.
If they are an Eldritch Knight they can put them to use boosting INT, but I have yet to ever see a single Eldritch Knight that threw spells that had saves on them in an actual game.

Fighters get 2 more options than other people, but those options are still just things the other classes could have chosen as well.

Ex.
A Barbarian that is going to smash people with a great axe will take GWM and max strength with 2 ASI left over for whatever.
A Fighter that is going to smash people with a great axe will take GWM and max strength with 4 ASI left over for whatever.
1. I strongly disagree with you. A Warlock can on the contrary be one of the best utility guy: let's remember that most of its "utility" comes either from "free-cast" Invocations, or through the Ritual learning Invocation. In both cases, someone that wants to get some utility will get permanent utility: so, sure, it's more restricted in the kind of utility than others, but it's still a good thing.
As for the "I need short rest or I'm useless": well, Battlemasters also would feel frustrated without short rest. Your sentence about a Monk is a flat joke, they are as well in dire need of short rest even at high levels (because at higher levels you will have to try more to succeed so blow more Ki for a single objective usually).
You want to go on?
- One of the most underestimated resilience features of Barbarian, Relentless Rage, is heavily dependent on getting a short-rest.
- Bards get short-rest Bardic Inspiration: until they reach at least 10th level, this will be a good half of everything good they provide to the party.
- A Tempest or Trickster Cleric would also be extremely bothered not to be able to use his defining Channel Divinity feature more than 1/day.
- Moon Druid would totally bite at the DM if he was restricted to 2/day Wild Shape.
- Any Fighter will grind his teeth because one of his iconic feature, Action Surge, is artificially dampened.

And more generally, short-rest is the one mean to recover HP without necessarily spending expensive resources such as slots or items.

So, no, there is no "DM has to tailor the game for"... It's extremely stupid to say that to be blunt. Even if there were only "long-rest" classes, any reasonable DM would allow at the very least one, maybe two short-rest. And as soon as there are classes with short-rest resources, it must be taken into consideration.

2. "Every class in the game has the ASI or feats to do what they are built for". Really?
Monk needs DEX and WIS to really exploit all its features. So unless good rolled stats, means 4 ASI on 5.
Paladin needs attack stat and CHA to really exploit all its features. Idem.
Ranger can do with only DEX, by selecting non-WIS spells, but it would still make him suffer on all its "party tracker" aspect: still, let's say he starts with 16 WIS and keep it: still has 3 feats, enough for Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert or Skulker (or Dual Wielder + Defensive Duelist) and even a Mage Slayer or Resilient. Good.
Barbarian is partially dependent on Constitution because of Unarmored, Relentless Rage and more generally being the meat shield, DEX if he wants medium armor, STR for his attack. Let's say he disregards Unarmored, so needs only 14 DEX: you can start with 16 STR & CON, 14 DEX, 10 otherwise. Max STR, take either GWM or Defensive Duelist + Shield Master, you still have space for a Resilient: Wisdom feat or Polearm Master or Sentinel.

Fighter can...
- Max the attack stat & take the damage feat (GWM / Sharpshooter) (so far same as others).
- But also increase his chances of getting attacks (Polearm Master / Crossbow Expert / Sentinel / Mage Slayer / Warcaster for EK).
- But yet also increase his resilience (Defensive Duelist / Tough / Resilient / Mobile): and more resilience means more stickiness in the frontline, so better overall efficiency.
- But yet also add some versatility if he wants to (Magic Initiate / Spell Sniper for EK / Ritual Caster): not really needed, but can be appreciated.

While still also raising his other aspects with remaining feats (in case of "normal" builds in which only 2-3 feats are spent on offense aspect)...
- Defense? Anyone really wants a Resilient feat for later levels, except Paladins and Rogues maybe, Tough or Inspiring Leader are always good even with lower CHA.
- Utility? On a decent WIS Fighter (which you can easily attain), Observant feat makes you a very capable scout if there is nobody with dedicated Perception/Investigation Expertise in your group. Alert would also be a feat of choice in that regard. Lucky is always useful as well.
- Fluff-enforcing mechanics? Be the drunk master that grapples everybody to smash them against other people (Grappler / Tavern Brawler), or the old general that gets adhesion from everyone (Inspiring Leader + Skilled if needed), or the great hawk that sees everything (Keend Mind + Observant).

So, whether ranged or melee, Fighter can be easily more efficient than other classes in mundane turns because he can stack any combination of several feats to increase the "potency" of his mundane weapon attacks (Sentinel = immobilizes enemy, Mage Slayer = more chance to break spell, Shield Master = pre-attack shoves) much further than any other class.
For example, one could go as far as this stupidly good combo: GWM+Polearm Master+Sentinel+Warcaster+Mobile on a STR Fighter with Booming Blade, going to wreak havoc in enemy ranks?

Or hang back as an archer and grab Sharpshooter + Mage Slayer + (Skulker) + Alert (+ Magic Initiate Cleric to Bless yourself for the one fight of the day in the improbable case nobody else can do it for you) to readily put down any caster before he can even act, and more generally shut off any concentration casting. You could even add Observant on that to act as a saboteur by sneaking, making a surprise attack and retreat immediately. Or Actor to infiltrate an enemy camp and assassinate someone in his sleep (surprised round with Action Surge means 6 attacks as soon as character level 11).

Or just be as good as any Barbarian in melee (GWM + Polearm Master + Sentinel) or Ranger (Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert + Skulker) except better (add Mage Slayer, Mobile or Alert) or more versatile (Ritual Caster FTW ith Comprehend Languages -spy-, Phantom Steed -spy, ranged combat).

I think the demonstration is made. ;)

[Tanarii]

1. I strongly disagree with you. A Warlock can on the contrary be one of the best utility guy: let's remember that most of its "utility" comes either from "free-cast" Invocations, or through the Ritual learning Invocation.Actually, Warlocks get a lot of utility out of spells known, especially out of combat ones, precisely because they are on a short rest recharge instead of long rest. And it's not like they need to fill up ALL their spells known list with combat spells. For a warlock, variety in their spell list makes perfect sense, they get a huge number of spells known compared to the limit of casting 2 per short rest. So in intense adventuring days with lots of combat per short rest, they're not using that full list. But they can also cover tons of utility in less intense days where combat is less per short rest.

This becomes most apparent when you look at their level 5 spell list: Contact Outer Plane, Dream, Scrying, Seeming (Fey), Hallow (Infernal). But even lower levels are loaded with utility spells.

Of course, how useful this is will depend, like prett much everything in the entire game, on the DMs style. Someone like Masterwhisperer , who has clearly only played in combat intensive days in which the DM doesn't allow short rests, will think the warlock is useless and lacks out of combat utility. Someone who plays in a combat heavy game only will wonder why the Warlock would ever choose Unseen Servant*, Illusionary Script*, Spider Climb, Gaseous Form, Tongues, or any 5th level warlock spell other than Hold Monster.

*obviously these two make less sense in a game where filling up the Book of Ancient Secrets is possible with things other than found scrolls (ie you can just buy them), or the DM intentionally chooses to hand out lots of scrolls and picks Wizards/Ritual Casters/Pact of the Tome warlock specific spells. Because the odds of you finding scrolls using random magic item tables is low, followed by random spell choice among available spells of a level making the chance of finding a ritual almost nothing.

[Misterwhisper]

Actually, Warlocks get a lot of utility out of spells known, especially out of combat ones, precisely because they are on a short rest recharge instead of long rest. And it's not like they need to fill up ALL their spells known list with combat spells. For a warlock, variety in their spell list makes perfect sense, they get a huge number of spells known compared to the limit of casting 2 per short rest. So in intense adventuring days with lots of combat per short rest, they're not using that full list. But they can also cover tons of utility in less intense days where combat is less per short rest.

This becomes most apparent when you look at their level 5 spell list: Contact Outer Plane, Dream, Scrying, Seeming (Fey), Hallow (Infernal). But even lower levels are loaded with utility spells.

Of course, how useful this is will depend, like prett much everything in the entire game, on the DMs style. Someone like Masterwhisperer , who has clearly only played in combat intensive days in which the DM doesn't allow short rests, will think the warlock is useless and lacks out of combat utility. Someone who plays in a combat heavy game only will wonder why the Warlock would ever choose Unseen Servant*, Illusionary Script*, Spider Climb, Gaseous Form, Tongues, or any 5th level warlock spell other than Hold Monster.

*obviously these two make less sense in a game where filling up the Book of Ancient Secrets is possible with things other than found scrolls (ie you can just buy them), or the DM intentionally chooses to hand out lots of scrolls and picks Wizards/Ritual Casters/Pact of the Tome warlock specific spells. Because the odds of you finding scrolls using random magic item tables is low, followed by random spell choice among available spells of a level making the chance of finding a ritual almost nothing.

Actually the game I played my warlock in were right the opposite. Between level 3 and level 9 we had combat a grand total of 4 times. 3 of those being cinematic because our dm was too damn lazy to actually want to roll dice for combat so much

The entire campaign was an investigatory intrigue and plotting kind of game. It was myself as a half elf warlock of the great old ones pact of chain, a half elf sorcerer I think he was draconian , a half elf lore bard, a wood elf monk, and a dwarf cleric of life.

In a very low combat game I quickly came to realize how hampered a warlock is.

I kept track after game number 5, I was told "we are not taking a short rest just because you played a sh!+ class, deal with it" or similar 67 time over the corse of the campaign. Also when a sorcerer can just blow spell slots into sorcerer points to create spell levels of the same level a warlock can, better than the warlock himself and does not need a short rest to do it, there is a damn problem.

Ex. This came up when we hit level 9 and the casters all got their 5th level spells.

A sorcerer can have 9 SP at a time, but can have 40 SP just by blowing spells in spell levels the warlock never had in the first place.

A sorcerer has 1 5th level spell slot naturally, and can spend 7 SP to get it back. So if they wanted to, using nothing but bonus actions they can actually cast 6 5th level spells between long rests, nothing of which require a short rest. He would even have 5 SP left to do metamagics if he wanted, and he only has to convert spells as needed.

To be able to just break even with that a warlock would have to be able to sit around and rest for 2 different sessions of 1 hour each that day, at times when he was already out of spells.


Also once we got past level 9 the sorcerer took 2 levels of warlock just to rub it in how worthless the class is.

Having to play a gimped class for 2 years, in a campaign where the DM and 1 of the players hate your character and one is an outright tool whose only goal is to piss you off kind of taints a person's view of the class.

[Citan]

I kept track after game number 5, I was told "we are not taking a short rest just because you played a sh!+ class, deal with it" or similar 67 time over the corse of the campaign. Also when a sorcerer can just blow spell slots into sorcerer points to create spell levels of the same level a warlock can, better than the warlock himself and does not need a short rest to do it, there is a damn problem.

Also once we got past level 9 the sorcerer took 2 levels of warlock just to rub it in how worthless the class is.

Having to play a gimped class for 2 years, in a campaign where the DM and 1 of the players hate your character and one is an outright tool whose only goal is to piss you off kind of taints a person's view of the class.
Well then yourself know the truth: the problem lied mainly with the DM, and honestly, a bit within you too. If your game runned for 2 years, it means you had ample time to ponder on one of the following possibilities...
a) Speak out of the game with your DM to try and understand his reasons to act as such, and try to find a compromise/help him break these blockers.
b) Circumvene by multiclassing yourself into a Sorcerer (then when the other player frowns upon your choice, just put their contradictions upon their face, explaining that this was the only way for you to enjoy since DM is unreasonable).
c) Suicide your character to make another one quick (a salty solution but one anyways).
d) Just stop playing with them and find another game (another one salty but still reasonable).

Basically, once you realize the DM is the one faulty, either you think there is a way to make it work back, or you find another way to enjoy yourself, or you leave the game. Maintaining a relationship which you know will end in toxicity in some way is useless. I know it's hard, it's sad, but that is the difficult truth behind social interactions. :)

I hope you find another game in which you can "safely" enjoy short-rest based classes. ^^

[Tanarii]

The entire campaign was an investigatory intrigue and plotting kind of game. It was myself as a half elf warlock of the great old ones pact of chain, a half elf sorcerer I think he was draconian , a half elf lore bard, a wood elf monk, and a dwarf cleric of life.

In a very low combat game I quickly came to realize how hampered a warlock is.
A Warlock is even more powerful in that situation, since time, at least on the short rest scale, is almost never pressing. Warlocks can get FAR more than the recommended 2 short rests per long rest. Unless the DM is arbitrarily taking control of rests. Which is fine as long as he isn't screwing ...


I kept track after game number 5, I was told "we are not taking a short rest just because you played a sh!+ class, deal with it" or similar 67 time over the corse of the campaign.... okay so you got a screwjob DM. You had a DM that either doesn't understand 5e, or intentional discarded the guidelines but didn't warn you before hand. How does that make it a problem with the class again? :smallconfused:

[CantigThimble]

Misterwhisper, I do think that the whole 2-3 short rest per adventure day system is not well designed because it leads to either very restrictive adventure design or an unbalanced party but that's not a flaw with the warlock class specifically, it's a broader issue with the system. Warlocks just suffer more than some when that system is violated, which means if one is in the party then you either need to follow the short rest system or use one of the several workarounds, like tripling short rest resources or the gritty realism rest variant.

[Vogonjeltz]

Because generally speaking, it's more damage. This is even true with PHB cantrips. Bonus action attack + Poison Spray > 2-4 attacks. Especially once undercutting saves dramatically increases the DPR 3d12 to 4d12 Poison Spray. Acid Spray (against 2 opponents) and Shocking Grasp (against metal wearing opponents) generally do more damage too.

Although this starts to break down when you allow broken feat combos like GWM and PAM in play. That's when you need to allow the power creep of the SCAG cantrips for EKs, to balance that out. OTOH that's why Feats are an optional rule. They aren't properly balanced.

Poison Spray + Great Axe or PS + Great Sword
4d12 + 1d12 + 5 = 37.5 OR 4d12 + 2d6 + 5 = 38

vs

Great Axe or Great sword
4d12 (26) + 20 = 46 OR 8d6 (28) + 20 = 48

I suppose I'm just not seeing it, and I didn't bother to do the math if only because I find it difficult to believe that even disadvantage on the save is going to overcome the 10 point gap. Are you saying that disadvantage on the save presents enough of an efficiency to overcome the lower damage output?

[Tanarii]

I suppose I'm just not seeing it, and I didn't bother to do the math if only because I find it difficult to believe that even disadvantage on the save is going to overcome the 10 point gap. Are you saying that disadvantage on the save presents enough of an efficiency to overcome the lower damage output?Yes. You're just not seeing it because you didn't bother to do the math.

Edit: admittedly, the advantage is far less in the case of a 2H weapon, as opposed to S&B. And of course, if GWM is in play its no longer an advantage. But S&B requires Warcaster, so there's a trade off there that has to be taken into account.

[bid]

Poison Spray + Great Axe or PS + Great Sword
4d12 + 1d12 + 5 = 37.5 OR 4d12 + 2d6 + 5 = 38
4d12 * 2 + 2d6+5 = 64

[ShikomeKidoMi]

The more encounters you have between rests, the stronger Champions are. Less encounters, the more other classes outshine them, since they can just blow through their limited resources and then recover while you're more of a marathon runner.


Going Half-orc with the champion is a good choice, but I've noticed that you're not swinging around a big weapon like you should, assuming that you want to be optimal, which I often don't). If you were to pick up a Greataxe with the Great Weapon Fighting style, you'd be able to consistently hit hard, and roll a bigger damage dice with your half-orc critical boost (which you get more often as a champion). Just a thought...

In this vein: Fighters get more feats than other characters. You can make a Half-Orc with Great Weapon Mastery and Pole-Arm Fighting, wield a Halberd and take advantage of both. That extra bonus action attack is another chance to crit and you enjoy your Great Weapon Mastery bonus damage on it as well. And you'll still have feats left over for things like Sentinel or Alert.

[Dudewithknives]

The more encounters you have between rests, the stronger Champions are. Less encounters, the more other classes outshine them, since they can just blow through their limited resources and then recover while you're more of a marathon runner.



In this vein: Fighters get more feats than other characters. You can make a Half-Orc with Great Weapon Mastery and Pole-Arm Fighting, wield a Halberd and take advantage of both. That extra bonus action attack is another chance to crit and you enjoy your Great Weapon Mastery bonus damage on it as well. And you'll still have feats left over for things like Sentinel or Alert.

That is the issue I have had with 5th edition.

The game is balanced around their many short fights of about 2 to 3 rounds each with short rests in there twice.

The issue is, with fights that are so short, it does not really put much stress on the resource management classes in the first place.

Ex.
Last campaign I was playing a rogue, so no resources to manage, the only other weapon user was a paladin.

Never once did the paladin ever run out of smites or anything because with 2 or 3 fights per rest that only last 2 or 3 rounds. There is no point in wasting resources on fodder.

A paladin who is out of smites or a barbarian who is out of rage, or even a monk out of ki, is still going to be attacking 2 or 3 times same as the fighter, who if champion did not have any resources to use anyway.

The classes that are made to last all day are not really that much better off than the resource classes without their respurces.

They balanced the game around 1 style, but then created certain classes or subclasses that do not use that style, but did not really give them a bonus.

[KorvinStarmast]

Shield Master is great for knocking guys prone and then hitting them twice with advantage. Your chances of a crit in those cases almost doubles. Unless you are, like me, a half orc up against a Giant. (Huge) Oops, I guess I'd need to ask the mage to cast "enlarge" on me next time. :smallbiggrin:

The champion's 7th level ability is also a nice perk for initiative and if you like to jump around and perform feats of daring-do on the battlefield. It can be lots of fun.

Remarkable Athlete
Starting at 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn’t already use your proficiency bonus. In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier. The only strength Skill is Athletics, so some other things like breaking down doors benefit from this.
Con has no skills (though there are checks like holding breath and going without sleep, all that this helps on). The Dex benefit is nice as you go up in levels since you may now and again want to be sneaky/stealthy.

I am enjoying my sword and board, shield master, defensive style, dueling style, half orc champion. My job is to kick a bit of butt, knock a few people over, take a few names, and smash stuff. I am thinking of dropping the next ASI into charisma to up my intimidate chances. Not sure.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes. You're just not seeing it because you didn't bother to do the math.

Edit: admittedly, the advantage is far less in the case of a 2H weapon, as opposed to S&B. And of course, if GWM is in play its no longer an advantage. But S&B requires Warcaster, so there's a trade off there that has to be taken into account.

Hmm, let's see, given standard array
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Human converts to
16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9
7 ASI (distributed for maximum effect)
20 (2), 20 (2.5), 18 (2), 14 (.5), 11, 9

Assuming we put 20 in our attack (str, presumably) and DC stat (Int) leaving the 18 for Con we'll have a spell save DC of 19, attack bonus of +11

What assumptions do you make regarding subject modifiers for their constitution saving throw?
Also, AC?

There's a wide variety of potentials here (poison, magic, or bps resistance/immunity, high/low ACs and Constitution scores)

Picking two numbers out of a hat:
AC 18
Con +5 (no prof)

Against AC 18 attacks are normalized to hit on a roll of 7-19, crit on 20
Against +5 con save DC normalizes to require a roll of 14+ for no damage, plus disadvantage requires lower roll to succeed.

Greatsword deals 8.75 per attack (35 for 4 attacks)
Poison Spray without disadvantage deals 16.9; with the disadvantage it deals 22.815 (.8775 chance of save failure); This is important because the disadvantage is contingent upon the target being hit by the melee, so in 30% of cases, the poison spray is only going to deal 16.9, and in the other 70% the combined total would be 31.565

That nets only 27.1655 on average from the poison spray + bonus action attack method of combat when using a great sword.

In point of fact, if we just look at the average damage, assuming poison spray landed 100% of the time, it would STILL deal less damage:
4d12 = 26 + 8.75 = 34.75

34.75 < 35

Again, what am I missing here? Are you assuming enemies have well over 18 AC?


4d12 * 2 + 2d6+5 = 64

How are you getting a second application off of the single target poison spray cantrip?

[Malifice]

Not really a debate - text says 'If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the targets AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit as explained later in this chapter'. Champion says 'your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20'.

Clearly intended to be separate things. You are, of course, welcome to play however you like at your table :smallbiggrin:

Edit - All aboard the derail train! :smallwink: On topic - champion is fine. If you're worried about being unlucky Shield Master could be fun - perma advantage means by level 5 you should have a 35% chance of critting every turn.

Edit 2 - Off topic again - in fairness it does look like Sage Advice disagrees with my on this one (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/21/are-fighter-champion-improved-critical-hits-like-a-normal-20/).

How could you score a critical hit and it be a miss?

I've always gone with: if an interpretation leads to an absurd result, then that interpretation is probably wrong.

A critical hit is a hit. And a critical one at that.

[Coranhann]

Haven't been able to play, yet (had to start my own freaking table on Roll20 as a DM because of how little games I could get into), so no experience with Champion, yet I really like the class for several reasons. Most of them were already discussed, but here's my 2 cents, hopefully adding to the conversation:

- Having half prof on initiative is strong. Take a "Alert" feat, and a 16 Dex, and you'll be really fast.

- Having half prof on stealth allow you to:
-- Save some proficiencies for your low stats, like perception. (ok, maximising strength or being able to do more thing is a personal choice. I'm saying: Champion let you diversify if you so choose)
-- Take the "Medium Armor Master" to get the equivalent of a full plate with a half plate, with disadv. on stealth check. Stealth is not just good for fights, it's also good for those weird moment in between fights when the group decide to go investigating in dangerous places.

- Crits allow you to maximize the bonus attack from Great Weapon Master. I think it's worth mentioning again. Cause that's one more attack. Potentially a Crit.

- Already said, but saying it again : having goodish (16) Dex, allow you to be efficient with bows. Having the second fighting style allow you to take archery, and you might end up going both GWM and Sharpshooter.

All in all, I guess I say: Champions are especially viable if you can take feats. It opens a few options that would be subpar for an EK. Without them, I feel it's not as interesting as a Battlemaster would be, yet, I would not say a Champion would not be viable.

[mr-mercer]

I have nothing to add to this discussion in terms of optimisation, but from one half-orc champion to another I'd like to extend a warm welcome to the fold. Remember to pick another PC to become best friends with and always, ALWAYS, come up with flashy ways to kill monsters if you score the killing blow. Have fun annihilating your enemies.