3rd Draft Sorcerer Nar Demonbinder Fatespinner

[RoboEmperor]

If you have an idea how to make the build better, please share.

Early Entry: Mother Cyst to add level 4 spell Necrotic Domination to spells known, and Versatile Spellcaster to cast it. Results in a level 6 sorcerer capable of casting level 4 spells.

Sorcerer5/Marshal1/Sorcerer1/NarDemonbinder3/Fatespinner4/DragonDisciple2/Fatespinner1/DragonDisciple3 with Domain Access Sorcerer substitution level 5 for Devil's Ego.

Base Class Progression is like that to reach 10 ranks Knowledge:The Planes by level 7.

PrC progression is like that because I'm getting everything I can before the dead levels. DD3 doesn't give a bonus spell slot, and bonus spell slots are more important than lowering opponent's saving throw.

Alternative Class Feature: Spell Shield, because I hate familiars.

Optimization Theory is: Earliest possible Lesser Planar Binding, and ludicrously high charisma check for guaranteed day 1 planar binding, so I can bind on the fly instead of needing downtime and without the Planar Binding debuffing cheese.

Level 20: 22CHA +4CHA (Eagle's Splendor) +4 (Devil's Grace) = 30CHA = 10mod + 10mod (marshal) + 4mod (Master Summoner) + 2mod (Demon Mastery) = +26 charisma check. Against Pit Fiend's +8, 95% chance of winning that charisma check (the literal maximum you can have with an auto-fail of 1)

Reasons:
1. Waiting until levels 9-11 for my character's shtick was excruciatingly painful in every game I played
2. Bound outsiders alone can beat any challenge/encounter
3. Can bind outsiders in 10minutes, allowing adventuring on same day or binding in between encounters.
4. Being extremely specialized is fun.

Game is 25 point buy.
Ability Scores:
STR:8
DEX:8
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:8
CHA:17

Race: Human for Favored Class:Any, Bonus feat, and skill points. Will switch to Aasimar if and only if 2 flaws are allowed (or 1 and multiclass penalty is waived), level buyoff is allowed, and have 16 int.

Marshal dip: virtually doubles my charisma check, including the bonus from Eagle's Splendor.

Dragon Disciple: gives me bonus level 8 spell slot virtually every level. 5 level investment for 4 bonus level 8 spells. Mandatory since you only get one level 8 spell per day with Nar Demonbinder.

Fatespinner: Easier Necrotic Cyst and Tumor, and free reroll if you roll a 1 on the charisma check.

Benediction + Mantle of second chances + resist fate = 1/20 * 1/20 * 1/20 * 1/20 = 1/160000 of rolling a 1.

Combined with my charisma check optimization I have a 99.999375% chance of winning that charisma check.

Feats
1 Mother Cyst - Early Entry
1H Versatile Spellcaster - Early Entry
3 Spell Focus: Conjuration - Prerequisite
6 Iron Will - Prerequisite
9 Eschew Materials - Fluff
12 Demon mastery - Charisma check boost
15 Heighten Spell - Mother Cyst Booster
18 Augment Summoning

If I use Nar Fiendbond to turn into a half fiend at level 14
1 Mother Cyst - Early Entry
1H Versatile Spellcaster - Early Entry
3 Spell Focus: Conjuration - Prerequisite
6 Iron Will - Prerequisite
9 Eschew Materials - Fluff
12 Heighten Spell - Mother Cyst Booster
15 Infernal Bargainer - +2hd greater planar binding for Balors
18 Versatile Spellcaster - Retake the feat lost by changing race

Sorcerer Spell Selection
Level 1
Color Spray - Best level 1 spell in the game, also since my higher level spells boost spell DC, need a level 1 save-or-something
Silent Image - Useful all game even with crap DC.
Ray of Enfeeblement - No Save, useful all game
Guided Shot - Prerequisite for Fatespinner, replaces Color Spray
No more level 1 spells because of Domain Access Sorcerer

Level 2
Eagle's Splendor - Shoulder slot is used for Mantle of Second Chances so can't use Cloak of Charisma
No more level 2 spells because of Domain Access Sorcerer

Level 3
Devil's Ego - Obtained through Domain Sorcerer. +4 charisma that stacks with Eagle's Splendor.

Minor Detail: My sorcerer will get a mantle of second chances.

Minor Detail2: My sorcerer will always bind an Aartaglith and ask it to cast Benediction before attempting any Planar Binding on the fiends.

Minor Detail3: If game is Epic, using Versatile Spellcaster to be able to cast the level 9 spell Necrotic Termination qualifies me for Epic Spellcasting. Will advance Dragon Disciple to 9 before advancing Malconvoker, then somehow get Sorcerer Spellcasting to level 18, and then finally go into Cosmic Descryer. This build isn't meant to be epic XD.

Minor Detail4: Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration is a placeholder for now

Ultimage Magus: I thought about wizard + Ultimage Magus, but ultimately it came down to "Marshal's charisma bonus v.s. Wizard Advancement", and at least for this character, I chose Marshal, for the charisma check. I mean just check it out, guaranteed charisma check win thanks to fatespinner, so I can bind a small squad of outsiders in a single day and adventure in that day too! Compare against binding only 1 outsider a day using debuff cheese and moment of prescience.

edit: After much rule-lawyering, otherworldly would remove human bonuses, which makes it not viable.

[Eldariel]

My personal favourite Nar Demonbinder is the classic Wizard 5/Whatever 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Whatever 2 (Archmage is nice for instance) - you get the best Nar Demonbinder stuff early on and a fast progression side class for Ultimate Magus gives you the perfect fuel for metamagic shenanigans via. Ultimate Magus. The trick is, Nar Demonbinder level is Wizard + Nar Demonbinder so it's always ahead of Wizard-level applying the lower level boosts from Ultimate Magus to Wizard. Of course you go primary Int, secondary Cha here and get 9th level Wizard and 8th level Demonbinder casting. However, I guess you'd want to make use of the signs and charisma bonuses of the class - in which case I'd be more tempted to combine it with Malconvoker; Improved Calling opening up two more HDs of Planar Binding is just sweet. Conveniently you can fit Wizard 5/Malconvoker 3/Nar Demonbinder 7/Malconvoker +5 into a single pre-epic build.

Of the builds you listed, well, I find the extra Wizard-levels kinda wasteful; you could take a PRC instead. Other than that, it looks decent though. I really wouldn't bother wasting resources on Arcane Thesis: True Casting though. Quicken Spell is fair enough but I'd be more likely to pick up Rapid Metamagic or something to allow using it on your Nar Demonbinder spells. If you wish to go this route, I recommend Easy/Practical Metamagic: Quicken Spell instead. You don't need to Quicken True Casting to cast it before Binding though - it lasts until the next turn. And if you do wish to Quicken it, a Circlet of Rapid Casting or Lesser Rod of Quicken Spell is more economical than spending feats on it.

[RoboEmperor]

Great tips, awesome tips, especially about the quicken spell. I'm changing the title again, it's not the final draft >.<

I think you're wrong about not needing quicken spell for true casting though. The rules are very clear, you need to cast planar binding immediately after magic circle, within 1 round, and the sole exception to this rule is dimensional anchor, so if you want true casting to apply to planar binding it has to be:

Magic Circle -> Dimensional Anchor -> Quickened True Casting -> Planar Binding.

True Casting applies on next spell, not the next spell of my choice.

The optimization theory here is earliest lesser planar binding possible. Without that bard hd cheese that is XD.

I used to play malconvoker a lot, and waiting until level 10 or 11 to do my shtick was excruciatingly painful, which is why I'm trying something new XD. Level 8 lesser planar binding.

The second optimization theory here is winning the charisma check rather than debuff shenanigans. Marshal doubles my charisma check which includes eagles splendor or nymph's cloak, and I want that Nar Demonbinder class feature #3, master summoner.

I've been recommended ultimate magus from all my fellow peers, but I just have to point out that this is 25 point buy, so I am not going to have 19int and 18 cha without being 100% dependent on headband of intellect and nymph's cloak. My DM doesn't play by WBL and wants us to craft all our gear.

But anyways, I am going to be rethinking everything. Thanks for your input.

edit: That malconvoker +2hd is truly awesome, which is why i've been trying so hard to get Infernal Bargainer in my build. I don't think you really need more than 20hd outsiders.

edit2: I'm abandoning quicken spell. I can't believe I forgot that rod existed.

[Eldariel]

For 25pb Ultimate Magus, you could use something like Middle-Aged Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm):
6 Str (1 point)
14 Dex (5 points)
10 Con (5 points)
18 Int (8 points)
9 Wis
15 Cha (6 points)

Tricky to play on low levels due to low HP, but you can pick up Abrupt Jaunt to work around that to a degree and you do have decent Initiative, hiding skills and such. That would easily hit 19 Int (in fact 23) and you could eventually use Wishes to raise your Cha to 18 or 20 (but 15 is perfectly sufficient for starters to cast Lesser Planar Binding). Alternatively, you could split up your level-ups putting you at 20 Int, 18 Cha, but I prefer focusing on one stat and then buffing the other with secondary tools. Certainly, there's no reason you couldn't pick up Craft Wondrous Items: indeed, you probably should do so in any case. Well, there are various ways to work around these limits with spells too but of course the least cheesy path is just using level-up points or self-cast Wishes. Note that Moment of Prescience is an excellent way to win the opposed check if you have Wizard-casting in the mix, but it does come fairly late of course.


Far as True Casting goes, that seems true. Yeah, Quicken it with Circlet/Rod or some other itemized option. Either way, it's not worth two feats. Replacing Dragon Disciple levels with Wizard-levels to get 5th level slots to do it the oldfashioned way would be another option. Not sure Marshal-level is still worth it, but that's a reasonable rationale. I personally would rate earlier Planar Binding higher though. I'm not sure how much you need to focus on the roll, really. A reasonable advantage and rerolls makes it rather rare that you'd mess up, and you can generally handle one mishap in hundred: Plane Shift the hell away if nothing else.

[Endarire]

Remember, assay spell resistance (Spell Compendium) should stack with true casting.

Also, is this Roy from our Enveloping Darkness campaign?

[RoboEmperor]

Remember, assay spell resistance (Spell Compendium) should stack with true casting.

Also, is this Roy from our Enveloping Darkness campaign?

Noooo my internet anonymity :(

The DM in this post is a different DM than that campaign.

You can't assay resistance the guy you target with Planar Binding on the account of him being in an entirely different plane than you. I know the spell targets you, but you still have to see your victim to reduce their SR.


Replacing Dragon Disciple levels with Wizard-levels to get 5th level slots to do it the oldfashioned way would be another option.

Brilliant!


Not sure Marshal-level is still worth it, but that's a reasonable rationale. I personally would rate earlier Planar Binding higher though. I'm not sure how much you need to focus on the roll, really. A reasonable advantage and rerolls makes it rather rare that you'd mess up, and you can generally handle one mishap in hundred: Plane Shift the hell away if nothing else.

Depends, I also want to succeed on the first day rather than draw it out for 7 days which is also the reason I want a ludicrously high charisma check.

You can't get 6 on a point buy by RAW, poses a slight problem to your suggestion, which means dex has to suffer.

I'm still considering ultimate magus. Progressed wizard levels is probably better than master summoner + infernal certitude, and I forgot about moment of prescience.

[gogogome]

I just like to point out that true casting does nothing for planar binding.


The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called).

[RoboEmperor]

I just like to point out that true casting does nothing for planar binding.

Wow, thanks. i just remembered my old DM house ruled that part. No more true casting or practiced spellcaster.

[RoboEmperor]

3rd draft is up. Kudos to everyone pointing out I don't need quicken spell, and I don't need to worry about spell resistance.

This led me to abandoning all +caster level feats and being satisfied with Nar Demonbinder 3 not 5.

[Eldariel]

Depends, I also want to succeed on the first day rather than draw it out for 7 days which is also the reason I want a ludicrously high charisma check.

You can't get 6 on a point buy by RAW, poses a slight problem to your suggestion, which means dex has to suffer.

I'm still considering ultimate magus. Progressed wizard levels is probably better than master summoner + infernal certitude, and I forgot about moment of prescience.

The 6 is a result of racial -2 and age -1, with 1 point invested. You certainly can do that. And yeah, succeeding immediately is all good but it's all in the opportunity cost. That you'll have to decide for yourself.

[RoboEmperor]

The 6 is a result of racial -2 and age -1, with 1 point invested. You certainly can do that. And yeah, succeeding immediately is all good but it's all in the opportunity cost. That you'll have to decide for yourself.

In my revised build, do you have a suggestion for a feat to replace Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration?

Sorry for rejecting your ultimate magus optimization. Know that I'll probably run it later, or at least use your point buy optimization for a different double progression PrC :D

[Anthrowhale]

I'd suggest dropping Master Summoner and Demon Mastery, instead focusing heavily on boosting your charisma. For example, a Drake Helm explicitly adds to your spell list as well as spells known. Using that, you could combine: +4(Profane, Devil's Ego)+8(Enhancement, Nixie's Grace)+4(Sacred, Righteous Aura)+4(Morale, Snowsong).

Also, there are several templates that give a bonus to charisma.

[RoboEmperor]

I'd suggest dropping Master Summoner and Demon Mastery, instead focusing heavily on boosting your charisma. For example, a Drake Helm explicitly adds to your spell list as well as spells known. Using that, you could combine: +4(Profane, Devil's Ego)+8(Enhancement, Nixie's Grace)+4(Sacred, Righteous Aura)+4(Morale, Snowsong).

Also, there are several templates that give a bonus to charisma.

Soooo close.

Drake Helm = Gate on Nar Demonbinder (cast through Versatile Spellcaster)= Qualify for Cosmic Descryer PrC!!!

But I can't cast level 9 spells Q_Q

Or level 6 spells.

Maybe I can use cooperative crafting rules and outsiders... If yes I'll grab Craft Wondrous Item. Gonna look into this.

I'm gonna grab Devil's Ego as my level 3 spell instead of haste/fly.

Why do you want me to drop Master Summoner (Class feature) and Demon Mastery (Feat)? Can you suggest a better feat?

Anyways with the addition of Devil's Ego, I have reached the literal maximum win chance obtainable with an auto-fail of one, so the rest of the spells seem like overkill.

edit: fixed typo

[Anthrowhale]

I'm not sure what a good alternative to Master Summoner is but two extra levels of any spell advancing class is probably more useful than Master Summoner. I'd advise "Mindbender", except that you should probably consider taking it as an alternative to Sorcerer 6 anyways. (Then take Mindsight.)

As for feats, you might take some of the discount item crafting feats for earlier/cheaper access to the relevant off-list spells. You might also want to consider "Summon Component" instead of Eschew Materials.

I'm not following the difficulty with Gate. Versatile Spellcaster + 8th level spells + Drake helm[Gate] = Gate, right?

[RoboEmperor]

I'm not following the difficulty with Gate. Versatile Spellcaster + 8th level spells + Drake helm[Gate] = Gate, right?

In the campaign I'm in atm, we need to craft all non-standard gear ourselves. Being a forgotten realms setting that eberron item needs to be crafted. You need to be able to cast the spell level of the shard you're trying to craft.

As for mindbender or a different prestige class, the problem is skill points/feats prerequisite. My character barely meets Nar Demonbinder and Fatespinner as it is so I'm not so sure.

I forgot about summon component. I might use it.

edit: Yup, mindbender is ludicrously hard to enter as a skill point starved sorcerer.

edit2: Didn't double check Devil's Ego. It's a domain spell exclusively.

[Anthrowhale]

Arcane Disciple could grant access to Devil's Ego.

Spell access via magic items (a scroll) or another spellcaster is allowed for item creation in general. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), second paragraph.

[RoboEmperor]

Arcane Disciple could grant access to Devil's Ego.

Spell access via magic items (a scroll) or another spellcaster is allowed for item creation in general. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), second paragraph.

Haha, I'm too feat starved to get that feat, in addition grabbing that feat would downright turn me into a worshipper of Asmodeus instead of being an independent 3rd party taking advantage of the blood war. W.e, the tome of charisma or wish will take its place, or like you said, the drake helm.


You can attune your own dragonshards for the drake-helm—a good idea if you’re a significantly higher- or lower-level caster than the drake-helm’s previous owner. Only the finest Siberys dragonshards can be attuned to accept spells for a drake-helm. Attuning the dragonshard requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat, and the creator must be able to cast spells of the relevant level. For other construction requirements, consult the following table.

I'm still not sure how it works. It's not a caster level requirement nor is it a spell requirement. I don't need someone to provide the gate spell, I need to be able to cast level 9 spells.

Actually since I have Necrotic Termination added to my Nar Demonbinder Spell list, I guess that qualifies me to attune a dragonshard with gate, but I would still find a dragonshard since I'm sure you can't craft one.

So if I'm understanding the rules correctly:
1. Get a Dragonshard (Buy from a Mercane?)
2. Attune it to accept level 9 spells
3. Get someone to cast gate in it (Titan)

The end.

i am having trouble understanding cost. The cost for a level 9 dragonshard seems to be Cost+Dragonshard_Cost*2

http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/drake-helm

So does that mean the cost to attune a shard is Cost+Dragonshard_Cost+3240xp? And changing the spell inside is free once a month? Does the Dragonshard cost 20,000gp?

[Anthrowhale]

Cost calculations seem correct.

[Endarire]

What about using Eunuch Warlock from Oriental Adventures 38?