Who's that deity?

[willpell]

Hey, I find the three pantheons of the OOTS world interesting, but I can't figure out who the southern gods are supposed to be. The five-headed dragon I know is Tiamat, who was a Mesopotamian deity, but the four-eyed four-armed dude who leads them doesn't ring any bells from my mythology reading. Who's he supposed to be, and is this a specific pantheon (Babylonian, Sumerian, Akkadian etc.) or just cribbed from various ancient Middle East kingdoms? For that matter, is there a reason the Greek, Egyptian and Hindu gods don't seem to be in the OOTS world (not a complaint, just curious)? I'd love to hear from Rich himself on this subject, but I don't see a way of directly contacting him (understandable since he's busy and has health issues).

[ref]

The Greeks are the ones that The Snarl killed.

[mockingbyrd7]

I heard something about Marduk, but I really am not familiar with those gods.

[Ithekro]

The Southern gods are the Chinese Zodiac animals

[mockingbyrd7]

The Southern gods are the Chinese Zodiac animals

Did we ever express any doubt on this topic?? I'm confused. :smallconfused:

[kpenguin]

I heard something about Marduk, but I really am not familiar with those gods.

While Marduk was mentioned in that scene and all the other gods mentioned are there, that guy doesn't look like any picture of Marduk I've scene.

[mockingbyrd7]

While Marduk was mentioned in that scene and all the other gods mentioned are there, that guy doesn't look like any picture of Marduk I've scene.

Hmm... the plot thickens.

[OmegaDonut]

While Marduk was mentioned in that scene and all the other gods mentioned are there, that guy doesn't look like any picture of Marduk I've scene.

It does match the description of Marduk I've read in mythology textbooks - particularly the four eyes and arms.

[mockingbyrd7]

It does match the description of Marduk I've read in mythology textbooks - particularly the four eyes and arms.

I helped! I helped! I mentioned Marduk! :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

According to my Deities and Demigods [the volume TSR got sued over, if you have a long memory], Marduk is indeed from the Babylonian mythos and did have 4 eyes [and 4 ears and flame coming out of his mouth.] According to the Babylonian version of events, He became king of the gods by beating up Tiamut. Cities other than Babylon are believed to have different versions, but since Babylon was the strongest city, it's version is at least the most common.

Other Babylonian gods
Anu-sky god and also claimed as chief of the gods
Anshar-God of darkness and night
Dahak-death god/monster
Druaga-Devil god
Ishtar-Goddess of love and war
Nergal-God of underworld
Ramman-God of Storms and thunder

Sumerian gods listed are
Enlil-ruling god, god of air and war god
Enki- God of rivers and Oceans
Inanna-Goddess of war and love [and usually identified with Ishtar]
Ki-Goddess of nature
Nanna-sin - Moon god
Nin-Hursag - goddess of the earth
Utu - Sun god

It is not definite that our writer has consulted any TSR or WOTC books on the subject, but these are the likely candidates for the gods of the West. Try Google for info on any of them.

[Ithekro]

Did we ever express any doubt on this topic?? I'm confused. :smallconfused:

He mentions this
"...but I can't figure out who the southern gods are supposed to be."

I answered that part of the question as stated. The rest I left to others.

[mockingbyrd7]

According to my Deities and Demigods [the volume TSR got sued over, if you have a long memory], Marduk is indeed from the Babylonian mythos and did have 4 eyes [and 4 ears and flame coming out of his mouth.] According to the Babylonian version of events, He became king of the gods by beating up Tiamut. Cities other than Babylon are believed to have different versions, but since Babylon was the strongest city, it's version is at least the most common.

Other Babylonian gods
Anu-sky god and also claimed as chief of the gods
Anshar-God of darkness and night
Dahak-death god/monster
Druaga-Devil god
Ishtar-Goddess of love and war
Nergal-God of underworld
Ramman-God of Storms and thunder

Sumerian gods listed are
Enlil-ruling god, god of air and war god
Enki- God of rivers and Oceans
Inanna-Goddess of war and love [and usually identified with Ishtar]
Ki-Goddess of nature
Nanna-sin - Moon god
Nin-Hursag - goddess of the earth
Utu - Sun god

It is not definite that our writer has consulted any TSR or WOTC books on the subject, but these are the likely candidates for the gods of the West. Try Google for info on any of them.




Info-riffic!

Just for fun, I'm going to see which Egyptian gods I can remember. (Come on, 3-year old Age of Mythology knowledge, don't fail me now...)

Ra - God of the sun
Isis - Goddess of magic
Set - God of evil
Ptah - God of creation
Bast - Goddess of... protection? I know she has to do with cats and protection and stuff.
Hathor - Goddess of fertility
Anubis - Judge of the dead
Sekhmet - Goddess of vengeance
Nepthys - Goddess of... well, we don't really know.
Horus - God of the sky
Osiris - God of something or other
Thoth - God of wisdom

Aha! Wow, I didn't think I'd be able to remember all 12 AoM Egyptian gods off the top of my head.

Oh, and...

Geb, god of earth. I just remembered that one.

[mockingbyrd7]

He mentions this
"...but I can't figure out who the southern gods are supposed to be."

I answered that part of the question as stated. The rest I left to others.

Oops, I missed that. Sorry about that.

[kpenguin]

According to my Deities and Demigods [the volume TSR got sued over, if you have a long memory], Marduk is indeed from the Babylonian mythos and did have 4 eyes [and 4 ears and flame coming out of his mouth.] According to the Babylonian version of events, He became king of the gods by beating up Tiamut. Cities other than Babylon are believed to have different versions, but since Babylon was the strongest city, it's version is at least the most common.

Other Babylonian gods
Anu-sky god and also claimed as chief of the gods
Anshar-God of darkness and night
Dahak-death god/monster
Druaga-Devil god
Ishtar-Goddess of love and war
Nergal-God of underworld
Ramman-God of Storms and thunder

Sumerian gods listed are
Enlil-ruling god, god of air and war god
Enki- God of rivers and Oceans
Inanna-Goddess of war and love [and usually identified with Ishtar]
Ki-Goddess of nature
Nanna-sin - Moon god
Nin-Hursag - goddess of the earth
Utu - Sun god

It is not definite that our writer has consulted any TSR or WOTC books on the subject, but these are the likely candidates for the gods of the West. Try Google for info on any of them.



Interesting. I seem to recall Marduk having a humanoid form, however. We are talking about the same Marduk, though? Chief deity of Babylon, killer of Tiamat, lord of Thunderstorms son of Ea Marduk??

[BobTheDog]

Interesting. I seem to recall Marduk having a humanoid form, however. We are talking about the same Marduk, though? Chief deity of Babylon, killer of Tiamat, lord of Thunderstorms son of Ea Marduk??

He also liked the booze, that Marduk guy. :smalltongue:

[Protagonist]

Info-riffic!

Just for fun, I'm going to see which Egyptian gods I can remember. (Come on, 3-year old Age of Mythology knowledge, don't fail me now...)

Ra - God of the sun
Isis - Goddess of magic
Set - God of evil
Ptah - God of creation
Bast - Goddess of... protection? I know she has to do with cats and protection and stuff.
Hathor - Goddess of fertility
Anubis - Judge of the dead
Sekhmet - Goddess of vengeance
Nepthys - Goddess of... well, we don't really know.
Horus - God of the sky
Osiris - God of something or other
Thoth - God of wisdom

Aha! Wow, I didn't think I'd be able to remember all 12 AoM Egyptian gods off the top of my head.

Oh, and...

Geb, god of earth. I just remembered that one.

Bast was the goddess of Cats, first and foremost.
Set was the god of the Red Desert, he just happened to be a nasty piece of work too, rather than being the god "of evil"
Isis = Ishtar = Inanna. They are all, more or less, the same goddess.
Osiris was the god of the dead, seeing as he himself was dead (murdered by Set)
Isis, Set and Osiris were siblings, and Osiris and Isis were the parents of Horus. Good old deific incest!

[kpenguin]

Nephtys was the goddess of helping other gods, I believe.

[Kaelaroth]

Nepthys was the goddess of death. She was married to Set (or Seth as he's also known), THOUGH SHE WASN'T IN LOVE WITH HIM!

So, she ran off and seduced Osiris, spawning Anubis.

[XxXU2XxX]

The gods of the west are from Mesopatamian mythology.

[factotum]

Interesting. I seem to recall Marduk having a humanoid form, however. We are talking about the same Marduk, though? Chief deity of Babylon, killer of Tiamat, lord of Thunderstorms son of Ea Marduk??

Well, he has a humanoid form in the comic strip, too--he just happens to have four eyes etc. Same way that Kali (Hindu goddess of death) is humanoid but with four arms.

[kpenguin]

The Marduk I remember has a beard and hair. He doesn't look very human to me, more of a basic humanoid shape with red skin.

[Telonius]

Could be Sardus Pater (http://www.jstor.org/view/00251496/dm993348/99p0693w/0). Very obscure god, had to find him through Google.

[Hiest, monkey]

Nepthys was the goddess of death. She was married to Set (or Seth as he's also known), THOUGH SHE WASN'T IN LOVE WITH HIM!

So, she ran off and seduced Osiris, spawning Anubis.

Ancient gods had frickin soap opera's.


I can totally see some priest bein' like "Ya know what, screw the whole 'gods are noble' thing we discussed at last meeting!" and carves in all sorts of crazy stuff. Like incest and affairs.

[Grey Watcher]

... For that matter, is there a reason the Greek, Egyptian and Hindu gods don't seem to be in the OOTS world (not a complaint, just curious)?...

I'd imagine the main reason he stuck to the four pantheons mentioned in the flashback (four includes the late Gods of the East, of Greek inspiration) was for simplicity's sake. That whole sequence is a lot of new information for his readers, and apart from indulging a taste for obscure lore, what would having pseudo-Egyptian or pseudo-Hindu gods really have added to the story?

Now, as for why he eschewed Egyptian and Hindu gods, I have my own, entirely baseless, speculation. Hindu was probably out from the start because (and I believe he mentioned this somewhere, but don't remember where and cannot find it) there are people living in the world today who worship those deities in their regular practice. Yes, he probably could've gone there, but in a day (and a medium) where literally anyone in the world can be privy to your work, do you really want to tempt fate by turning someone's revered religious beliefs into cartoon characters? (I know, I know, plenty of people's answer is "yes," but Rich's was apparently "no," and it's his work, his decision.)

Turning to the Egyptian Gods, obviously the above is not an issue with them. I think, however, that they're distinctive enough that they'd be hard to divorce from their historical roots. The Babylonian Gods are more obscure than the others, and the Norse gods are European, much like the presumed baseline culture of D&D. Can you really pry Ra and Osiris and Isis away from an Egyptian-style culture? Probably, but I imagine it's damn hard. Better to use a mythology that doesn't have such a recognizable and distinctive culture attached to it, gives you more room to play as an author.

[Jimmy Discordia]

Ancient gods had frickin soap opera's.


I can totally see some priest bein' like "Ya know what, screw the whole 'gods are noble' thing we discussed at last meeting!" and carves in all sorts of crazy stuff. Like incest and affairs.

Kind of off-topic (okay, completely off-topic), but this is always the way I portray the gods in my homebrew settings. If you can trace their family tree without having to draw any dotted lines/lines crossing other lines/arrows pointing in unexpected directions, I'm not doing my job as world-builder right. :smallbiggrin:

[Gol_Stoan]

I think that Rich picked Babylonian gods because they were not in the newest version of Deities and Demigods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deities_and_Demigods) and he wanted to be different.

[Chronos]

Ancient gods had frickin soap opera's.


I can totally see some priest bein' like "Ya know what, screw the whole 'gods are noble' thing we discussed at last meeting!" and carves in all sorts of crazy stuff. Like incest and affairs.Actually, there's a logical reason for all of the mythological shenanigans. Most polytheistic tribes/nations/city-states, when they conquer some other polytheistic tribe/nation/city-state, will match up the mythologies to make assimilation easier. So, for instance, "Oh, you have a god of thunder? We do, too, except we call him Zeus. Must be two different names for the same guy". Except that this leads to complications, when you look at the relationships between the deities: Maybe in one region's mythology, the god of thunder is married to the goddess of rain, while in another, he's married to the goddess of the sky, and in another, he's married to a goddess of the soil. In order to fit all of those in, your thunder god has to play the field.

[the_tick_rules]

until they show up we really can only hypothesize.

[Glome]

Did anyone ever see that episode of 'The Real Ghostbusters' cartoon a long time ago when Marduk and Tiamat end up fighting each other in the middle of New York City? Marduk was Orange if I remember correctly, and basically was potrayed as the God of Cities and civilizations and often shapechanged to fit into whatever crowd he happened to be in.

[Peregrinus]

Marduk is also a god of cities as well as the chief god of the Babylonian pantheon, also a god of warriors.

I'm fairly familiar with all of that set because a Neverwinter Nights/Neverwinter Nights 2 persistent world I play on uses that pantheon.

Also when I last checked Ramnan was the god of the oceans while Enki was the god of "sweet" (fresh) water, might be wrong on that.

[tainsouvra]

Now, as for why he eschewed Egyptian and Hindu gods, I have my own, entirely baseless, speculation. Hindu was probably out from the start because (and I believe he mentioned this somewhere, but don't remember where and cannot find it) there are people living in the world today who worship those deities in their regular practice. [...]
Turning to the Egyptian Gods, obviously the above is not an issue with them. Not so obviously--there are people who still worship them. I know someone who was raised to it, actually, although he's not a close friend. I'm not saying your theory is wrong, as it's far from a widespread religion these days and Rich may well have thought the same thing you did, but just as a random tidbit for you...it's not an extinct religion :smallsmile:

[willpell]

Hey, thanks to everyone who answered my question! :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

[EntilZha]

In #273, the four-armed, four-eyed guy is indeed Marduk, as depicted in the 1st Edition Deities and Demigods book.

The woman with the crown and the sword in the same comic is probably Inanna (called Ishtar by the Akkadians), goddess of love and war.

[PaladinFreak]

Wow. I really didn't know that anyone still worshiped the Egyptian gods. Somebody please tell me if I'm losing it.

[Jeriah]

EntilZha is correct in identifying Marduk and Inanna.

The Egyptian gods were probably eschewed more because they have become overdone almost to the point of becoming a cliché than anything else.





On another note, Chronos had a valid point with the meshing of the various religions, and while this did happen, it's not the only reason.

The whole "Gods and incest" thing is more or less because, at some point, the only gods believed to be in existence were either parent/child or siblings. Generally, there wasn't anyone to mate with except for family.

For those of us with a creationist background, who do you think the descendants of the first man and woman mated with? Hell, even in the Christian theology, "incest" wasn't forbidden until the time of Moses and the giving of the Law.

The ancients generally understood this concept better than we do now, because, quite simply, we have too dang many people in the the world, 6.5+ billion as compared to <1 million. For generations prior, everyone would have been closely related to everyone, marrying cousins and siblings when there was no one else available. This is also why multiple marriages weren't uncommon. If there's only 10 men to 20 women, someone had to father the children. At the time the ancient mythoi were first created, intra-familial marriage wasn't that uncommon, and in places probably more common than inter-familial couplings.