Combat Campaign : How to make rogues shine ?

[Pugwampy]

I have been gaming 3.5 and later PF since 2008 . One thing thats always bugged me are dissatisfied rogues probably due to our gaming style .

Dungeon crawling is 50 percent or less in our games . Other classes cast detect trap or knock spell or pump their stealth skills or dex .
Other players dont want trouble from the PO PO so they do their best to persuade thiefy not to shoplift or burgle. Even camping where Thiefy can sleep in light armour is well hijacked by heavy armour dude sleeping in light armour PJ,s or everyone pumping their dex to wear light armour. Everyone who can stealth is invited to do so to get a free attack in before the fight .Your optimized fighter or wizard can do as much damage as any rogue backstab damage. Buttkicker and Spellchucker just do their thing but a rogue must get into a proper position to backstab .

Average rogue players usually switch to ranger . One player said he has no purpose another said his best game was sneaking up and catching bunnies.

Admittedly the rogue is missed when he is not around at dungeon crawl time . Those traps and locks are huge time wasters but in the end thats all it is , time waster. Not lethal or impossible.

How would you fix this ? How do I make this class attractive without changing our groups combat heavy campaign style ?
I was toying with the idea of dare I say it automatic success rate on anything roguish . Let the fake rogues do the rolls .

Thanks for helping

[Sayt]

Have you checked out the Slayer from the Advances Class Guide or the Unchained Rogue from Pathfinder Unchained? IMHO, both make much better replacements for the vanilla rogue.

[Kitsuneymg]

Unchained Rogue + Hidden Blade is the way to make a rogue that does rogue things and can still whoop ass in combat.

Alternatively, Unchained Rogue + Eldritch Scoundrel is a much better way to represent a thief who learns magic than minor/major talent. Drop in a fiat Spheres of Power conversion to mid caster instead of 6 levels of vancian casting, and that rogue will pick up enough talents to really excel at a few spheres. Dark and Warp are particularly fun.

You can even Unchained Rogue + Hidden Blade + Eldritch Scoundrel. Make sure to pick a race that gets +1/6 rogue talent though. Imp evasion and maybe a few others are worth it. Once you get one talent, Extra Talent lets you access the rest.

[prototype00]

There was a Pimp Hand rogue build I had started out that did lots of (nonlethal) damage. Let me see if I can dig it out:


Its been hinted at slightly in the thread for sap mastery optimization, but no one came right out and said it, so I repeat it here for edification.

You can make an awesome Rogue with the scout and thug archetypes that will have your foes running from you in terror after you slap their fillings out.

I call it The Pimp for reasons that should be obvious

Here is how the build comes together:

Human Rogue (Scout, Thug)

Feats:
1st: Improved Unarmed Strike
Human Bonus: Sap Adept
3rd: Knockout Artist
5th: Sap Mastery

Rogue Talents:
2nd: Finesse Rogue
4th: Combat Trick (Enforcer)

So at 5th level, whenever you charge someone, they are flatfooted (thanks to scout). Since they are flat footed, you deal double nonlethal sneak attack damage (6d6, thanks to sap mastery).

Since you were using your pimp-hand to deal the damage, you deal 1.5 times your level in extra damage due to sap adept and knockout artist. (In this case at level 5, 9 extra damage)

Now Enforcer comes into play, you can intimidate your foe as a free action, because you dealth nonlethal damage (Hope you didn't dump cha). If you succeed, they are shaken for a number of rounds based on the damage you just did (6d6 + 9 minimum), so lets say, forever, basically.
Thats -2 to attacks, skills, saves.

...Or you could switch all those rounds of shaken for one round of frightend where:

Quote:
A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear.
Which is basically taking any enemy out of the fight for one round, guarunteed and best part is, no save. And since the target for intimidate is static (10 + HD + wis mod), boost it enough (I recommend a cane that gives you an enhancement bonus to intimidate) and you don't have to worry about the enemy making a lucky roll.

So, really, at the very least a rogue build that doesn't in any way, suck.

prototype00

[Tuvarkz]

Unchained Rogue, or allow access to Path of War and either Stalker reclass or grab the Hidden Blade archetype. (or Steelfist Commando warlord if they want charisma instead).

[Florian]

@Pugwampy:

You´ve already mentioned two parts of it: Rogues are "resource savers". As skill monkeys and trap removers, they should prevent others from having to spent any kind of resource on those jobs. Hell, having rules for group skill checks, there´s not even a need to get stealth on anyone else, with the Rogue guiding them thru it (same with Rangers and survival, for example). If your players don´t want that, then this boon falls flat and there´s no helping it.
As for traps, think about integrating those more directly into encounters instead of placing that at points where they only draw charges from a wand of CLW.