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knightware
2007-08-03, 02:45 AM
Hi everyoneÖ

I am about to join a Gestalt Ninja game with a Starting ECL of 8, one half the gestalt has to be pure ninja.

I would really like to play some type of thrown weapons master but having some trouble making an effective and perhaps optimized build.

I was tempted to go Ninja//Scout/Master Thrower but after reading more than a few comments on this forum about the scout I donít think it will be a very effective build.

All standard books allowed except for TOB, and itís a low magic world so unfortunately I canít be a caster at all.

Any help and tips about how to make an effective thrower would be great.

Zincorium
2007-08-03, 03:49 AM
Well, first off, you're a combat character, so one side as a full BAB class is going to be necessary.

Fortunately, probably the best choice you can make is ranger. If your DM gives you flack about the partial casting, point out the non-magical version in unearthed arcana.

As to why:
1. Like I said, full BAB. Gestalt campaigns tend to be a lot tougher than a similar non-gestalt campaign, you'll need every bonus to hit you can get. You also get a slightly upgraded hit dice.

2. Archery tree works with thrown weapons. So does TWF. Take your pick.

3. Identical ability priorities. You don't have to worry about sacrificing the effectiveness of one class. High milage for ability scores is especially valuable for a low magic campaign, where you can't simply buy items to make up for low scores.

4. Hide in plain sight eventually. If I have to explain why exactly this is a good thing, then you probably should avoid the ninja class.

5. Bonus damage from favored enemy is pretty good.




Another good one would be the Soulborn class from Magic of Incarnum, which will partially make up for the lack of magic items, but it's also a lot more likely to get shot down.

its_all_ogre
2007-08-03, 03:55 AM
barrage of 'druid' offers on their way!
or fighter for 4 levels for feats, pref to improve your inititative.

lord_khaine
2007-08-03, 04:02 AM
i dont think druid is a good idea, the guy wantet a thrown weapons master ninja, and druid is neither very ninja-like nor especaly good with thrown weapons.

on the other hand, i also think you could pick a better choice than ranger, for a start then pure fighter going into shadowdance would both give you more bonus feats, weapon specalisation and faster Hide in Plain Sight.

another choice is psycic warrior, going into slayer.
that would give you a lot of both defensive and offensive abilities, that more than compensatets for medium BAB.

its_all_ogre
2007-08-03, 04:34 AM
i am not advocating druid, but that is the most cited class on here for ninja.
but yes psy-war would be awesome for powers and wisdom synergy and a load of psionic feats to up the damage and other useful stuff.
good call.
worst thing you have here is poor will save. but with ninja +2 for ki pool remaining and high wisdom i think you should be all right.

Zincorium
2007-08-03, 04:36 AM
Uh, guys...druid isn't even an option. Reading the post should prevent that suggestion from coming up on the first place.

And psionic classes are probably a really hard sell in a campaign where casters aren't allowed.

I do agree fighter is a good choice, but it's got pretty limited utility past level four, it just doesn't scale well enough.

Swashbuckler would be good if it didn't require a high intelligence score to be useful, barbarian doesn't fit the bill flavor wise but would certainly be a mechanically sound option (strength is added to thrown weapons, and you can definitely do that in rage). Heh, go with a half ogre, add in barbarian levels, then take hulking hurler for some fairly cheesy damage.

"Seriously, I was just standing there, minding my own business, when a rock the size of my house comes thundering down out of nowhere and smashes the building. Never saw who did it."

lord_khaine
2007-08-03, 04:47 AM
actualy the suggestion was fighter-->shadowdancer, and it would have at least as much utility as just ranger, not to mention the advantage of a higher HD.

still, if manifesters isnt allowed either, then your options are a bit limited, though for a addet bit of ninja magic you could pick changeling as a race, for the ability to alter your apperance.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-03, 10:09 AM
Consider the Psi Rogue at Wizard's. Slightly toned down compared to a Psychic Warrior. 100 PP at level 20. Feat progression is slightly delayed but since you will be PRCing after level 5 no real cost. Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack Damages stack so that is a nice synergy.

At level 8 it only has 6 PP before bonus power points and only 6 powers known from a limited list (3 level 1 powers and 3 level 2 powers) which might be just right for a low magic campaign. Just consider them ki powers.

Since it is a Ninja maybe Disable, Force Screen and either Dimensional Pocket (For hiding Ninja stuff) or Vigor for combat as level 1 powers in theme for a ninja plue another 20 or so.

For level 2 powers there is Animal Affinity, Aversion, Chamelon, Detect Hostile Intent, Knock, Read Thoughts or Wall Walker in them with a Ninja plus another dozen or so.

There is a Psi Assassin at Wizards also which works well with the ninja concept.

FireSpark
2007-08-03, 10:25 AM
I know this suggestion may not be the most *optimal*, but to me optimal is another word for boring.

So my suggestiong for a gestalt ninja build would the following:

On one side you'll go straight ninja, and get all those nifty ki tricks. Then on the other side, take fighter levels to pick up bonus feats until you qualify for master thrower AND tempest. This way, you'll be set for combat from any perspective (close or ranged). Ninja 20 // Fighter 10/ Master Thrower 5/ Tempest 5

Weeeee!:smallbiggrin:

Swooper
2007-08-03, 10:25 AM
No caster? Then just take a psionic class, like the above poster pointed out. I'm a fan of psychic warrior myself, but unfortunately it doesn't have full BAB (for some strange reason). I have no idea how they gestalt with a ninja though. Maybe a psion would be better.

Thinker
2007-08-03, 10:45 AM
I know this suggestion may not be the most *optimal*, but to me optimal is another word for boring.

Yeah, dying is way more fun than surviving the encounter.


Ninja 20 // Fighter 10/ Master Thrower 5/ Tempest 5
A few fighter levels may not be bad, but Tempest is not a very good class. In place of those fighter levels you may want the variant in unearthed arcana that grants Sneak Attack progression. That way you get full SA, full Sudden Strike, full BAB, and good Fort and Ref saves.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-03, 10:50 AM
A few fighter levels may not be bad, but Tempest is not a very good class. In place of those fighter levels you may want the variant in unearthed arcana that grants Sneak Attack progression. That way you get full SA, full Sudden Strike, full BAB, and good Fort and Ref saves.

I'm pretty sure the whole "Sneak Attack = Sudden Attack" rule precludes getting full progression in both.

BardicDuelist
2007-08-03, 10:53 AM
Well, what about a rogue? Sneak Attack stacks from multiclassing, and thus stacks in Gestalt. This is even easier to get past since it is sneak attack and sudden strike. I know you are still a little squishy and have moderate BAB, but you would be getting quite a lot of damage and more skills. Go TWF and your STR score won't really matter. You will be rolling handfulls of d6s (and a couple d4s).

Edit: Forgot about the Variant in UA.

PinkysBrain
2007-08-03, 11:09 AM
All standard books allowed except for TOB, and itís a low magic world so unfortunately I canít be a caster at all.
How about the semi casters such as binder and incarnum users?

Draz74
2007-08-03, 03:58 PM
Yeah, I might go with the Ninja//Fighter/Shadowdancer idea. Barbarian would be OK too.

I'm trying to think of something with a good Will save that would have good synergy with Ninja, though. Hmmm. Dragon Shaman? You'd be stuck with Medium BAB, but you'd have a d10 hit die, all good saves, some blasting power, some healing power, and some other random abilities like boosting awareness skills. It's a shame the Dragon Shaman's abilities are based on Charisma instead of Wisdom. A decent Dragon Shaman//Ninja needs high Dex/Con/Wis/Cha, which is pretty MAD. But a lot of Gestalt has that problem.

One more idea. You could go Ninja//Monk, and PrC out of the monk side. Adding Monk to Ninja gives you good saves, a little bit of decent damage even when Sudden Strike doesn't work, and Evasion much sooner. Check out the Disciple of the Word in the Tome of Magic for an interesting monk PrC. Or the Psionic Fist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm), if partial-manifester classes are allowed. Ninja and Monk are too similar to make a great Gestalt build together, but when you're already working with limitations like "no casters," it could be a decent option.

knightware
2007-08-04, 04:25 AM
Thanks for the idea guys, to be honest I am not completely fixed on the master thrower concept so other options are always open.....

I would like something more effective as 2 of the other players are pretty good optimizers and I tend to get left behind alittle.

Unfortunately the GM isn't a fan of Psonics so it isn't likely to get approved...

From my understanding atleast as far as my group is concerned Sudden Strike and Sneak attack are the same thing so I can only take the ability from one side or the other not both at the same time....

Any other tips are welcome I got another week to put this together and welcome your help