Is the monk still horribly, disgustingly terrible in e6?

[Crake]

So I'm running an e6 game, and against my suggestions one of the players (who is well aware of how terrible monks typically are) decided to play a monk. It's now a few sessions in and he's starting to regret his decision, citing that his character is terrible, though I'd argue more toward him putting his character in terrible positions instead. Looking at the character we put together it doesn't seem so completely out of line with what the rest of the party is capable of, so it got me wondering, is monk REALLY so terrible in an e6 environment?

For some context, the game is being run with no spellcasters in the party. They exist in the world, rarely, but I specifically barred them from being a player choice. With that in mind I also ran a few variants to make the lack of magical healing less of an issue, the wound/vitality system, which recovers much faster (hourly for vitality) and gives a little extra buffer with wounds (I run both positive and negative wounds, so you have about twice your con in buffer after vitality, half of which you're unconscious for). I also run class armor bonus and armor as DR, which is another thing he cites as being a horrible reason to go monk, since he can't wear armor, though it's been pointed out to him that the only things he loses while wearing armor is flurry of blows (which he swapped out for decisive strike), fast movement (which he barely utilizes), and wis to AC, which would be made up for by the armor he puts on. He has since caved and started wearing armor giving him DR2/- though we haven't gotten to a combat since then, so we'll see how that goes.

The other two party members are an OA samurai (we're playing an oriental game) and a pathfinder ninja, so in terms of class features, it's not like he's being particularly outmatched, it really comes down to his chassis, which is d8, medium bab, all good saves, 4+int skill points, vs d8, medium bab, only reflex, 8+int for the ninja, and d10 HD, full bab, 2 good saves, 4+int for the samurai, not exaclty way off.

The party is coming up on level 4 now, and I don't feel like his character, in contrast with the rest of the party, is particularly on a lower level, so I posit the question: Are monks really that bad in e6?

Edit: And yes, clearly there are better classes, but I'd like to know where monk stands in such a low level environment.

[Florian]

The PF Ninja might be a tiny bit better, because PF and the raised power floor, that shouldn't´t make that much difference when looking at the three classes you have at your table.
But strange choices for a Monk anyway.

Edit: Just a thought as you seem to do a 3.P-style game, maybe you should allow the Monk the "Sohei" archetype, as that swaps Wis to AC for Light Armor proficiency, which should work better with your table rules.

[ATHATH]

Monk gets actually pretty decent if you stack on things like the Invisible Fist archetype. I'll go sift through the ACF/substitution levels list and see what I can come up with.

[Eldariel]

Monks are comparatively at their worst in low levels. Their damage dice and AC need levels to scale to kinda-sorta catch up with the other classes; their ****ty proficiencies really hurt early on too. Greatsword NPC Warrior > Monk, particularly if the Monk can't even access Mage Armor. Need straight 18s just to be decent

[Florian]

Need straight 18s just to be decent

Ah, so a Monk, a Fighter and a Rogue at the same table and the Monk can only make fine with all 18s? Really?

[Crake]

Monks are comparatively at their worst in low levels. Their damage dice and AC need levels to scale to kinda-sorta catch up with the other classes; their ****ty proficiencies really hurt early on too. Greatsword NPC Warrior > Monk, particularly if the Monk can't even access Mage Armor. Need straight 18s just to be decent

A level 6 monk with superior unarmed strike, improved natural weapon and hammerfist gets 2d8+1.5* str to their attack? I'm pretty sure that's better than a greatsword NPC warrior. I also houserule hammerfist to give power attack returns for unarmed strikes as if they were 2 handed weapons, so not sure I'd agree there.

Heck, you could ignore superior unarmed strike and have 2d6, putting you on par with greatsword damage.

[Mordaedil]

The main reason why monks are godawful is because of their lack of armor. Assuming you roll two 18's and you decide to put them both into dexterity and wisdom, you get a totaly of +4 from each, for a total of 8. That isn't terrible, but the fighter is right over there, doing the same thing with a fullplate and he can make it even better by equipping a shield.

And if you roll mediocre stats or worse yet, use point buy, you are going to have either 14 in both, or in only one. Then you're talking the equal armor of a light armor. On your melee focused fighting class. Without dexterity bonus that a rogue enjoys. By the time you qualify for getting +1 AC, the fighter is probably rolling around with a magic fullplate with a magic shield.

The monk can of course compensate with this by investing in feats and buying magical items. That other classes can also do, but even better.

The monk loses. He always loses.

[Calthropstu]

My game, our monk was the mvp until I flat out killed him at lvl 5. His mvp status started at lvl 1.

He did something to pump his ac into the mid 20s at lvl 1. By lvl 5 it was 28. Unfortunately, while he was impossible to hit he didn't have much damage dealing capacity. So the bad guys got lots of attacks on him. Hit him with a nasty critical and flat out killed him.

[Eldariel]

Ah, so a Monk, a Fighter and a Rogue at the same table and the Monk can only make fine with all 18s? Really?

On levels 1-3, I'd say so. 4-5 isn't quite as horrible and 6+ begins to do something, if nothing impressive. PF Monk is better, of course, but I would certainly not call it good.

@Crake: Well, Warrior has more BAB, more SAD and 2-handed PA, as well as less full attack reliance. Not sure who wins but given the feat investment, I would like to see the Monk do a bit better comparatively. Invisible Fist is veritably awesome though.

[Mordaedil]

My game, our monk was the mvp until I flat out killed him at lvl 5. His mvp status started at lvl 1.

He did something to pump his ac into the mid 20s at lvl 1. By lvl 5 it was 28. Unfortunately, while he was impossible to hit he didn't have much damage dealing capacity. So the bad guys got lots of attacks on him. Hit him with a nasty critical and flat out killed him.

Combat Expertise? He couldn't have used that feat to it's fullest potential until level 5 though. Also saying "you killed him" makes it seem like you did intentionally and maliciously. I prefer to make it at least seem like it was out of my control if my players have misfortunes happen to them in my games.

[Crake]

The main reason why monks are godawful is because of their lack of armor. Assuming you roll two 18's and you decide to put them both into dexterity and wisdom, you get a totaly of +4 from each, for a total of 8. That isn't terrible, but the fighter is right over there, doing the same thing with a fullplate and he can make it even better by equipping a shield.

And if you roll mediocre stats or worse yet, use point buy, you are going to have either 14 in both, or in only one. Then you're talking the equal armor of a light armor. On your melee focused fighting class. Without dexterity bonus that a rogue enjoys. By the time you qualify for getting +1 AC, the fighter is probably rolling around with a magic fullplate with a magic shield.

The monk can of course compensate with this by investing in feats and buying magical items. That other classes can also do, but even better.

The monk loses. He always loses.


My game, our monk was the mvp until I flat out killed him at lvl 5. His mvp status started at lvl 1.

He did something to pump his ac into the mid 20s at lvl 1. By lvl 5 it was 28. Unfortunately, while he was impossible to hit he didn't have much damage dealing capacity. So the bad guys got lots of attacks on him. Hit him with a nasty critical and flat out killed him.

Two conflicting points here, though I gotta agree with Calthropstu on this one, the monk has the highest AC in the party, but as per my OP, he puts himself in terrible positions to the point where his AC is irrelevant, either enemies are stacking bonuses against him, or just getting so many attacks it's irrelevant because he gets himself surrounded.

He's going the striking cobra style, so he got dodge and mobility as his 1st and 2nd level bonus feats (dodge houseruled to function like it does in pathfinder), has 14 dex, 16 wis, and a class defense bonus of +3, plus 1 deflection from "magic items" (i use the pathfinder unchained inherent magic bonuses, so no magic items, but free bonuses as you level up). That gives him a grand total AC of 20, while I believe the samurai has something like 18 (5 from the oriental adventures equivilent of +1 scale mail, 2 dex, 1 deflection), and the ninja also has 20 (4 from +1 studded leather, 4 dex, 1 deflection, and +1 dodge feat).

At his current level, with decisive strike, he's doing 2d8+6 damage, which is more than a greatsword wielding 18 strength warrior, though admittedly that's at a -2 penalty to hit (-1 at level 5) but his damage isn't exactly paltry compared to the samurai's 1d8+4 katana strikes (we're using pathfinder katanas which are 1d8, but 18-20 crit).

[Florian]

Huh, weird. What does you Monk try to accomplish by acting this way?

[Mordaedil]

Two conflicting points here, though I gotta agree with Calthropstu on this one, the monk has the highest AC in the party, but as per my OP, he puts himself in terrible positions to the point where his AC is irrelevant, either enemies are stacking bonuses against him, or just getting so many attacks it's irrelevant because he gets himself surrounded.

He's going the striking cobra style, so he got dodge and mobility as his 1st and 2nd level bonus feats (dodge houseruled to function like it does in pathfinder), has 14 dex, 16 wis, and a class defense bonus of +3, plus 1 deflection from "magic items" (i use the pathfinder unchained inherent magic bonuses, so no magic items, but free bonuses as you level up). That gives him a grand total AC of 20, while I believe the samurai has something like 18 (5 from the oriental adventures equivilent of +1 scale mail, 2 dex, 1 deflection), and the ninja also has 20 (4 from +1 studded leather, 4 dex, 1 deflection, and +1 dodge feat).

At his current level, with decisive strike, he's doing 2d8+6 damage, which is more than a greatsword wielding 18 strength warrior, though admittedly that's at a -2 penalty to hit (-1 at level 5) but his damage isn't exactly paltry compared to the samurai's 1d8+4 katana strikes (we're using pathfinder katanas which are 1d8, but 18-20 crit).

Right, so your monk has been given house rules to his benefit, has better than average defense, +2 higher class defense bonus than he should have, and is using a magic item and you compare it to your party samurai using a suboptimal armor and no shield. Shouldn't the ninja also have a wisdom bonus or did he dump that stat?

[Crake]

Right, so your monk has been given house rules to his benefit, has better than average defense, +2 higher class defense bonus than he should have, and is using a magic item and you compare it to your party samurai using a suboptimal armor and no shield. Shouldn't the ninja also have a wisdom bonus or did he dump that stat?

The class defense bonus (an unearthed arcana variant, think of it as his make-up for not having access to mage armor) is something everyone gets, but since it doesn't stack with armor, for the rest of the party it only applies to their touch AC. The rest of the party also benefits from the magic item replacement system, which is why they all have +1 deflection as well. The samurai's choice of armor is thematic, but it's hardly the worst he could be wearing. It's an oriental game, so fullplate is not available, and the best armor available (great armor, 7 AC, 2 dex, so same combined bonus as fullplate) is a very rare thing, not something you can just buy randomly, but even with that and a tessen (oriental version of a light shield) at level 6 the monk is still gonna have better AC, we calced it. As for the ninja, as I mentioned, it's a pathfinder ninja, so no wis to AC.


Huh, weird. What does you Monk try to accomplish by acting this way?

Well, a good example would be the last time something happened. He moved in to get flanked with two ninjas after winning initiative, trying to provide flanking for the party ninja, even though he knew they were gonna act first. He was subsequently flanked himself, and the ninja that didn't have to move spent a ki point for an extra attack, resulting in him being sneak attacked 3 times, when he could have instead retreated to give the ninja time to co-ordinate, and force them to double move in and not get any attacks instead.

Just poor tactical decision-making

[Florian]

Just poor tactical decision-making

Wrong build or class for acting like this, probably nothing to do with the Monk, then.

[Fizban]

Based on the situation you have described, everything sounds fine. Personally I'd say the class defense bonus from UA (if that's what you're using) is too low for Monk, as the core problem with the Monk has always been lack of AC and they should have enough to match whatever the armored characters are getting. I suspect that you are correct in that the player just isn't playing their character very well, likely not using their bonus feats or decisive strike.

Though you might also give them decisive strike on standard action single attacks (no continuing into full attack). The Ninja doesn't need to full attack for sneak, the Samurai is currently incapable of full attacks and likely has two-handed smashy, but the monk feels weak because they expect to be able to move and deal full damage like everyone else currently is-assuming the party is always rushing their foes. Or you might not, if the ninja is TWF and/or you want the Samurai's iterative attack to be more significant later. But if the monk has no skill or mobility bonus over the Samurai that's a little weak, unless their unarmed-ness constitutes a significant tactical advantage in the campaign.

*Reads thread*

Yeah that all sounds about right.

[Crake]

Based on the situation you have described, everything sounds fine. Personally I'd say the class defense bonus from UA (if that's what you're using) is too low for Monk, as the core problem with the Monk has always been lack of AC and they should have enough to match whatever the armored characters are getting. I suspect that you are correct in that the player just isn't playing their character very well, likely not using their bonus feats or decisive strike.

Though you might also give them decisive strike on standard action single attacks (no continuing into full attack). The Ninja doesn't need to full attack for sneak, the Samurai is currently incapable of full attacks and likely has two-handed smashy, but the monk feels weak because they expect to be able to move and deal full damage like everyone else currently is-assuming the party is always rushing their foes. Or you might not, if the ninja is TWF and/or you want the Samurai's iterative attack to be more significant later. But if the monk has no skill or mobility bonus over the Samurai that's a little weak, unless their unarmed-ness constitutes a significant tactical advantage in the campaign.

Funnily enough the Samurai has been, for the most part, one handing, and using his other hand for something else. In the fights so far it has either been holding a lantern because it's been underground/night, or holding onto the reins of his horse. The ninja is not currently twf, but instead working up toward spring attack at level 6, same as the monk (though the monk gets it for free from his style at level 6, in addition to increasing the bonus from dodge to +2), so in terms of damage, the monk is actually on par with the samurai, they do the same damage, but the samurai has +1 bab over the monk. The monk's decisive strike is about on par with the samurai's iaijutsu focus in terms of set-up and damage, basically 2 rounds between iaijutsu strikes (Round 1: Put sword away, feint, round 2: Draw sword, strike) And that's assuming that he a) succeeds on his feint, and b) hits his attack.

[Mordaedil]

The class defense bonus (an unearthed arcana variant, think of it as his make-up for not having access to mage armor) is something everyone gets, but since it doesn't stack with armor, for the rest of the party it only applies to their touch AC. The rest of the party also benefits from the magic item replacement system, which is why they all have +1 deflection as well. The samurai's choice of armor is thematic, but it's hardly the worst he could be wearing. It's an oriental game, so fullplate is not available, and the best armor available (great armor, 7 AC, 2 dex, so same combined bonus as fullplate) is a very rare thing, not something you can just buy randomly, but even with that and a tessen (oriental version of a light shield) at level 6 the monk is still gonna have better AC, we calced it. As for the ninja, as I mentioned, it's a pathfinder ninja, so no wis to AC.


Ah, I wasn't familiar with the Pathfinder Ninja, sorry about that. The class defense bonus is actually a pretty solid fix to make the monk playable, but can you imagine him without it? I mean, yeah, it turns out if you buff the monk, it isn't actually unplayable, but that wasn't really what I thought you asked in your OP?

[Florian]

Ah, I wasn't familiar with the Pathfinder Ninja, sorry about that. The class defense bonus is actually a pretty solid fix to make the monk playable, but can you imagine him without it? I mean, yeah, it turns out if you buff the monk, it isn't actually unplayable, but that wasn't really what I thought you asked in your OP?

Reread the explanation in the OP. It´s not only the automatic defense bonus (UA), but also automatic bonus progression (PF) as well as the armor as DR variant (UA). All in all, that means that the armor wearing classes gain less AC from armor as the monk ever will.

I think a major part of the problem (besides tactical miscalculations) are the build decisions we see here.

[Mordaedil]

Oooh.

Well yeah, using all of those rules at once kinda puts the other melee characters at a disadvantage all of a sudden.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I think you can get him to speed eventually, if he makes it that far, by letting him take certain hand picked higher level class features as his bonus feats while at the eternal 6th level.

[emeraldstreak]

A level 6 monk with superior unarmed strike, improved natural weapon and hammerfist gets 2d8+1.5* str to their attack? I'm pretty sure that's better than a greatsword NPC warrior. I also houserule hammerfist to give power attack returns for unarmed strikes as if they were 2 handed weapons, so not sure I'd agree there.

Heck, you could ignore superior unarmed strike and have 2d6, putting you on par with greatsword damage.

But that's only scratching the surface. A monk of higher level can leverage the quadratic damage of unarmed strike into dozens and hundreds of damage per slap. E6, meh.


The main reason why monks are godawful is because of their lack of armor. Assuming you roll two 18's and you decide to put them both into dexterity and wisdom, you get a totaly of +4 from each, for a total of 8. That isn't terrible, but the fighter is right over there, doing the same thing with a fullplate and he can make it even better by equipping a shield.

And if you roll mediocre stats or worse yet, use point buy, you are going to have either 14 in both, or in only one. Then you're talking the equal armor of a light armor. On your melee focused fighting class. Without dexterity bonus that a rogue enjoys. By the time you qualify for getting +1 AC, the fighter is probably rolling around with a magic fullplate with a magic shield.

The monk can of course compensate with this by investing in feats and buying magical items. That other classes can also do, but even better.

The monk loses. He always loses.

How to be a bad Monk, summarized.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think your best bet is multiclass, but you could pull of a Karmic Strike decisive strike build that focuses on dealing double damage AOO's and being a general pain in the butt with a quarterstaff. Decisive Strike brings to the table an ability that is unique within E6, the ability to do a single double damage attack and have that carry over into AOO's for the rest of the round.

[Pugwampy]

Instead of trying to kill ourselves and use homebrew stuff why not just make the useless classes 2 levels ahead of the cool classes.

That should be a great equalizer and sales pitch .............in theory ?

[Fouredged Sword]

Instead of trying to kill ourselves and use homebrew stuff why not just make the useless classes 2 levels ahead of the cool classes.

That should be a great equalizer and sales pitch .............in theory ?

Eh, I am more of a fan of flexible point buy. Just give low tier classes a higher stat point buy than tier one classes.

[Gemini476]

Well, think about what a 6th-level Monk gets.

Default unarmed damage of 1d8. +20ft speed. +1+WIS AC. +3/+3 Flurry of Blows. The three bonus feats you get.

Let's concentrate on the damage for this post. You're doing 2d8+2*STR at a +3+STR attack bonus. (More attacks are better for reliability, though - you're more likely to do some damage, even if the average damage is lower. Also, Stunning Fist and the like.)

The sixth-level Warrior, meanwhile, is doing iterative attacks - assuming +4 STR and a greatsword, that's 13 damage/attack at +10/+5 vs. your 17 damage/attack at +7. (Let's go with Decisive Strike for ease of use.)


I made an excel table to confirm my suspicions, and the Warrior always wins in the damage department: the lowest they get is 145% of the Monk's damage at AC9, and the highest is 382% at AC27 (when the monk is going to 5% hit chance but the Warrior is at 15%/5%). Most of the time (AC12-25) it hovers around 150%ish, though.

Of course, things change a bit once you start including feats (and E6 characters get a lot of feats). Superior Unarmed Strike brings you up to a base 1d10 damage as a Monk, or +2 over the previous damage. The Warrior now only does 140%ish the damage, and at AC9 they're down to 130%.

If you get Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), you do 2d8 damage - so 4d8+2*STR, or 26 damage. Now, having taken two feats, you are almost equal to the Warrior. You even do more damage against AC8-10 (albeit, like, +3%/+6%). The AC12-25 streak goes from 103% to 117%, so you're not actually that far behind.

But you're probably not going to be the 18 Strength Monk. Because you actually want more stats than that. And saying that "Monk 6 is better than Warrior 6" is kind of silly in and of itself - if the Warrior was instead a braindead Fighter who pumped into Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus for +1 to hit/+2 damage, they start soaring ahead again. And hey, let's say that they're even more braindead and decide to get Monkey Grip for a Large 3d6 greatsword that they swing around - still doing 135%ish the damage of your monk, mind you, and they've only used one non-Fighter Bonus Feat! Oh, and we haven't even got into Power Attack yet.


So you lose out in straight damage, and you lose out in armor. If you try to make up for one you're losing even more in the other. The speed bonus is nice but doesn't matter if you want to be able to do damage because full attacks, but on the other hand in E6 Spring Attack might actually be worth it? The bonus feats scale badly - you're not getting more levels past level 6, and combat maneuvers are lopsided since your BAB is never increasing but monsters keep going up until CR, what, 12? Purity of Body is nice since Remove Disease is a 3rd-level spell and the Cleric will be short on those slots, but it also doesn't work on magical or supernatural diseases and those are the majority.


Basically, in E6 or E20 a Monk remains a Monk.

[Pugwampy]

Eh, I am more of a fan of flexible point buy. Just give low tier classes a higher stat point buy than tier one classes.

That would make an awesome argument thread . Extra 18,s or 2 levels ahead .:smallbiggrin:

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Levels.

Extra 18s just give a numerical bonus, extra levels make the character's mechanics more interesting.

The only downside is the other martial classes will want extra levels as well. (Except the fighter maybe, he gets his bonus feat either way.)

[Florian]

Maybe it´s a bit more important to analyze the actual tables rules used, as these basically mirror the old Star Wars d20 system?

As you can either have the Automatic AC Bonus or DR/- active, that means that basically all armored combatants will have their Max Dex (plus magic bonus) as AC cap, which is pretty low (AC 13 with an MW O-Yoroi). That is countered by an defensive combatant being able to field DR 8/- as lowest, which is a pretty impressive defensive ability, especially in E6.

That alters the worth of two options that´re generally looked down up: Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise, as the downside of lowered to hit is still more than enough I'm comparison to the lowered AC.

[Pugwampy]

The only downside is the other martial classes will want extra levels as well. (Except the fighter maybe, he gets his bonus feat either way.)

The point is to make Monk on par with normal martial classes which is theoretically his role.

Of course everyone wants to level up .

[Fouredged Sword]

Levels.

Extra 18s just give a numerical bonus, extra levels make the character's mechanics more interesting.

The only downside is the other martial classes will want extra levels as well. (Except the fighter maybe, he gets his bonus feat either way.)

That is why you set things up by tier. Tier 5 gets the highest point buy and each following lower tier gets a lower point buy. Ideally wizards become hesitant to tank their con and dex enough to afford an 18 int. Fighters and monks enjoy most of their stats being 14+ so it doesn't hurt that they are mad.

The problem with adding levels is that you open up options for access to things not normally available to E6 characters though higher skill ranks and BAB. Full BaB in e6 MEANS something as you get an extra iteratives. Giving Monk 2 extra levels cheapens that.

[Gruftzwerg]

In E6 I would suggest a build like:

warlock 3 / monk 2 / crusader 1

Go for Eldritch Claw & Beast Strike (feats) combo ( = 4d6 dmg). Beast Strike can be used in a flurry. If you should face many low AC enemies, you could add TWF for another attack (on top of flurry).

Spider Climb and See the Unseen are nice to have 24h buffs that you could choose as least invocation. Further you get Detect Magic at will which is a really nice to have ability.

Crusader adds some extra tankynes & heal support. Steely Resolve to delay some dmg you take and with Martial Spirit (Stance: heal 2 hp per enemy you hit) you can heal yourself or your teammates. Crusader Strike adds some additional healing (1d6+3 hp).

Imho as you can see, a Monk dip can do very well in E6. A pure monk6 is a bit harder to achieve, but should be possible too (but I wouldn't recommend it^^).

edit: btw, max Str, ignore AC. You can heal the dmg up. Further take Invisible Fist ACF instead of Evasion to avoid being attacked/targeted. Another great point of Invisible Fist is that the enemies are denied their Dex bonus to AC and thus you can hit em easier with your extra attacks (with flurry and maybe twf = up to -4 to hit penalty).

[Crake]

Instead of trying to kill ourselves and use homebrew stuff why not just make the useless classes 2 levels ahead of the cool classes.

That should be a great equalizer and sales pitch .............in theory ?

The homebrew/variant rules usage is actually more based on the setting being played, and were decided on before the monk had even chosen his class. I'm running a 0 caster e6 game where magic items are practically nonexistent, basically artifacts. The pathfinder automatic magic item replacement, starting 2 levels earlier (aka, from level 1) as per the suggestion for a no magic setting, makes up for the lack of magic items, the vitality system makes up for the lack of healing, and the armor as DR gives the party some extra survivability. I've made some personal changes to the vitality/wounds system, including a nonlethal damage system when you get to wounds, with armor not giving DR when you're in wounds, isntead converting that damage to nonlethal. Fall damage likewise goes straight to wounds, which is a pseudo-buff to the monk's slow-fall, especially since featherfall is no longer a thing :smalltongue:

I included the class defense bonus so people didn't feel required to wear armor while in a casual or town setting, since it's not something that was really common on the streets in feudal japan, and it's always been something that makes sense to me, armor class going up with skill

[Luccan]

That is why you set things up by tier. Tier 5 gets the highest point buy and each following lower tier gets a lower point buy. Ideally wizards become hesitant to tank their con and dex enough to afford an 18 int. Fighters and monks enjoy most of their stats being 14+ so it doesn't hurt that they are mad.

The problem with adding levels is that you open up options for access to things not normally available to E6 characters though higher skill ranks and BAB. Full BaB in e6 MEANS something as you get an extra iteratives. Giving Monk 2 extra levels cheapens that.

The problem with variable point buy is multiclassing. Not only will you never start as a wizard if you want to play a gish or some other combo of classes, but you also shouldn't start as a wizard if you want to be a wizard, because you can have way better int while still having other good stats if you just start as an expert or something. You'll give up spells per day, but E6 does have a homebrewed "extra spells per day" feat that it cautiously recommends. In non-E6 games, it won't matter. This won't matter for OPs situation but it's something to consider for others.

[Fouredged Sword]

And this is why i ask players for a rough build up front and judge the build itself for tier level.

[Gildedragon]

Let them use the PF monk (archetypes or unchained)
Or switch into unarmored ssage

Having read the rest of the party composition: monk is pretty even.

[CharonsHelper]

Edit: Just a thought as you seem to do a 3.P-style game, maybe you should allow the Monk the "Sohei" archetype, as that swaps Wis to AC for Light Armor proficiency, which should work better with your table rules.

Actually - AC is one thing that monks are actually really good at. The Sohei's advantage comes from Weapon Training - their AC is inferior when wearing armor. (And they can still get Wis to AC when not wearing armor - they give up the monk's increased movement.)

So long as they have a Wisdom of 14, you'll always have a better AC with Mage Armor cast on you (just grab a Pearl of Power for your wizard buddy to use). Not to mention that your touch AC will be much higher.

The only issue 3.x monks have with AC is that they can't get an AoNA at the same time as an AoMF - but I believe that a late FAQ of 3.5 lets monks flurry with gauntlets and still gain their increased unarmed damage. (doesn't work that way in PF)

[Dagroth]

To balance/increase Monk survivability...

If you're giving AC as DR from armor, then simply give Wis-to-AC as DR as well. A Monk's Wisdom bonus is their armor, so make the rule reflect that.

[Godskook]

Monks are fine in E6, depending on how much magic marting you allow. With no magic items at all, and no spellcasters to compete with, their speed allows them to abuse the plethora of feats that E6 characters get access to without significant effort on their part. They're uniquely suited to Spring Attack, and a few other choice feats. On the other side of the spectrum, full magic item support, especially if CL7+ items exist(including wands), the Monks are doing great as well, since martials are still relevant, and there's a lot of useful things a Monk can buy. They struggle in the middle, where "normal" magic items are plentiful, but even mildly custom work is simply non-existent.

And mind you, I'm not talking about abusive stuff. Just a necklace of natural attacks or w/e.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

An Unchained Monk from PF shouldn't have any trouble keeping up

[CharonsHelper]

To balance/increase Monk survivability...

If you're giving AC as DR from armor, then simply give Wis-to-AC as DR as well. A Monk's Wisdom bonus is their armor, so make the rule reflect that.

A monk's defenses are the one thing that they already have going for them. This change is simply not needed.

The monk's issue is their flurry of misses.

[Elkad]

I'm betting the issue isn't actually mechanical.

He's likely used to playing much higher powered characters, while playing something that has so many variant rules it might as well be a different game. So his perceptions are skewed. He's not comparing himself to the other current characters, he's comparing himself to his last character.

Or doing things like "just wear armor" on a Monk just doesn't fit the flavor in his head. Dissatisfaction. That he may not even be able to articulate. He may "never use that extra movement", but he still feels like he lost it. The points he spent in Wisdom are definitely lost - if he was going to wear armor, he'd have put them in Dex/Str/Con instead.
That one you can fix easily. Drop an item on him that gives some DR. Instead of "Bracers of Armor", they are "Bracers of Sturdiness/Defense/WoundResistance/Whatever" (make sure they don't stack with actual armor), without making him give up multiple class features. Bonus, if you have a fight in town or otherwise unarmored, he gets to be the guy that shines.

[SirNibbles]

I've been playing a reasonably optimised Sidewinder Monk in a 3.5 game that started at level 2 and is now level 5. I rolled well on stats and rolled max on HP until level 4. I carefully position myself to be protected, get flanking bonuses, get AoOs, etc. The only reason I'm alive is because the DM appears reluctant to finish anyone off. Even with flanking and invisibility, I have trouble hitting. I hold a longspear to get attacks of opportunity against enemies who want to melee me, but Monk's lack of proficiencies result in a painful -4 to rolls with that.

Level 3 was probably the best the build got since I had 2 attacks on a full attack, 1d6 sneak attack damage, and the ability to go invisible once every 3 rounds as a swift action.

And, of course, Monk is even more useless outside of combat than in combat.

[lord_khaine]

Honestly, from what the OP has been telling then the only problem is poor decisionmaking of the monks player.
I mean we can talk page up and page down on the merrit of different fixes.

But if the Monk then runs in between 2 roguetypes on his own its not going to matter what we do.

[Quertus]

So, given the amount of home brew and house rules you've had to use to make the monk still fail, I feel that the answer should be obvious.

[Crake]

I'm betting the issue isn't actually mechanical.

He's likely used to playing much higher powered characters, while playing something that has so many variant rules it might as well be a different game. So his perceptions are skewed. He's not comparing himself to the other current characters, he's comparing himself to his last character.

Or doing things like "just wear armor" on a Monk just doesn't fit the flavor in his head. Dissatisfaction. That he may not even be able to articulate. He may "never use that extra movement", but he still feels like he lost it. The points he spent in Wisdom are definitely lost - if he was going to wear armor, he'd have put them in Dex/Str/Con instead.
That one you can fix easily. Drop an item on him that gives some DR. Instead of "Bracers of Armor", they are "Bracers of Sturdiness/Defense/WoundResistance/Whatever" (make sure they don't stack with actual armor), without making him give up multiple class features. Bonus, if you have a fight in town or otherwise unarmored, he gets to be the guy that shines.

I'm not using any magic items at all, the only source of DR is from armor, to contrast the class defense bonus and actually give people some incentive to wear armor at all. Currently all the party members have the same class defense bonus as they do armor bonus, so without armor as DR, they would have no benefit from wearing armor at all, which I didn't like.


To balance/increase Monk survivability...

If you're giving AC as DR from armor, then simply give Wis-to-AC as DR as well. A Monk's Wisdom bonus is their armor, so make the rule reflect that.

Except the wis to AC isn't armor. It's not something that's physically getting in between you and an attack. I'm not the kind to introduce rules just for the sake of balance if they make no thematic sense.

[Quertus]

Except the wis to AC isn't armor. It's not something that's physically getting in between you and an attack. I'm not the kind to introduce rules just for the sake of balance if they make no thematic sense.

Make monks a little more SAD by giving them Roll With It (x2? x2 if Wis 14+?) as a free bonus feat? Balance, and thematic.

[Elkad]

...and the ninja also has 20 (4 from +1 studded leather, 4 dex, 1 deflection, and +1 dodge feat)...


I'm not using any magic items at all, ...

Color me confused then.

[Crake]

Color me confused then.

pathfinder unchained has a variant called "Automatic bonus progression" which can be used as a substitute for magic items. In the scope of e6, this means the players, by level 6, will have a +2 resistance bonus to saves, a +1 natural and deflection bonus to AC, +2 to a mental and physical ability score, as well as being able to enhance a pair of masterwork weapons to +1 and either 2 sets of armor, or an armor and shield to +1. For the purposes of the game I'm running, i'm saying that the bonuses are all mundane in nature, meaning if they were to come across an AMF, they would retain all their bonuses, however, it also means that the weapons are not considered magical for overcoming DR, making the monk's ki strike (magic) ability quite nice, and the samurai's ancestral daisho being actually magical likewise quite nice.

[Florian]

@Crake:

Do you keep in mind that ABP covers 50% WBL, splitting the rest up to 25% for a "special or character defining item (1 per x levels)" and 25% consumables?
(Else a Bard couldn't get a special magic instrument, things like boots and cloak of elvenkind for a Ranger would be impossible, and so on.)

Also, let me point out again that both rules stubs from UA, Armor as DR and Automatic Bonus Progression, have a finished and combined form in Star Wars d20. You should look that up and think about using it this way, as it offers an elegant means to solve some of the UA problems.

@lord khaine:

Agreed. You bring yourself into that position and survive, you should actually be happy that your character can take that kind of punishment.

[Bucky]

I'd think that Monks would run into trouble later in E6, because their level 6 bonus feat means less when everyone's seventh and eighth levels are bonus feats, while Monks' lack full BAB keeps them from qualifying for others' feats.

[Crake]

@Crake:

Do you keep in mind that ABP covers 50% WBL, splitting the rest up to 25% for a "special or character defining item (1 per x levels)" and 25% consumables?
(Else a Bard couldn't get a special magic instrument, things like boots and cloak of elvenkind for a Ranger would be impossible, and so on.)

Also, let me point out again that both rules stubs from UA, Armor as DR and Automatic Bonus Progression, have a finished and combined form in Star Wars d20. You should look that up and think about using it this way, as it offers an elegant means to solve some of the UA problems.


The ABP has an option that states for a game completely devoid of magic items, treat the players as 2 levels higher on the table.

As for star wars d20, i'll look into it, though I was led to believe that starwars d20 came out before UA, since UA specifies that, for wounds/vitality at least, the variants were made for the star wars system and compiled within UA, so they shouldn't be particularly different, should they?

[Vizzerdrix]

So what are his stats and basic tactics? Also what gear is he using?

[Soranar]

You'll need a few ACF but a monk is doable in e6

First, the decisive strike ACF is a must

-it works in armor
-it works with a shield
-it affects attacks of opportunity

Now combine this with the ACF that trades evasion for invisibility every 3 rounds and the passive way combat style which grants you improved trip, improved feint, combat reflexes and +4 to trip someone denied his DEX bonus

So, you get all the monk abilities you need
You can wear armor and even use a shield (letting you concentrate on STR , dumping DEX and WIS)

Combine that with a warforged (for the battlefist component which solves your enchanting issues)

So, STAT wise

prioritize STR then CON
dump DEX, INT, WIS, CHA
Use adamantine body to get armor

You can even combine this with Dragonborn of Bahamut (which grants you a +10 to jumping through the wings) and take sudden leap to move around the battlefield (which works better with high STR anyway) and use decisive strike (instead of relying solely on 5 foot steps)

-alter self or enlarge person can increase your size 1 step (obviously from a friendly spellcaster)

it's not great in high level games but it should work fine in e6

[Florian]

@Crake:

That option... doesn´t really work out, sadly.
UA is more a compilation of house rules and rules stub that collected in a longer time period (as is Unchained for PF). so it could well be that they included the prototypes for what was later used on SWd20.

[Gemini476]

Star Wars d20 had three editions:
Star Wars Roleplaying Game (2000)
Star Wars Roleplaying Game Revised (2002)
Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition (2007)

Unearthed Arcana was released in 2004.

[Crake]

@Crake:

That option... doesn´t really work out, sadly.
UA is more a compilation of house rules and rules stub that collected in a longer time period (as is Unchained for PF). so it could well be that they included the prototypes for what was later used on SWd20.

The preface for the wounds/vitality system says it's directly copied from the star wars system, which was already published at the time, as for ABP not working out, the effective value of the bonuses you get at level 6 are actually well above both 3.5 and PF WBL, so i'd say it works out about fine, could you back up your reasoning?


So what are his stats and basic tactics? Also what gear is he using?

He's gone 15(+1 from level 4) str, 14 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 14 wis, 10 cha, he's taken the decisive strike ACF, and is using the cobra strike style from UA (with the houserule that dodge is just a flat +1 dodge bonus to AC, no need to select a target or anything). Race is human, nothing special there, his feats so far I believe are power attack, weapon focus (unarmed strike) and an oriental adventures regional feat that lets him make knowledge checks untrained and use wis instead of int.

His tactics seem to have mainly been "move in, attack, maybe use decisive strike if the enemy seems easy to hit/i'm desperate". I've discussed with the player, and I want to keep monks more in the realm of martial artist, not wuxia magic fighter, and keeping that the realm of the martial initiators, so nothing like the invis monk.

[Vizzerdrix]

Okay then. I can think of a few ways to make him less squishy. My prefered methods being toughness (or improved toughness) into trollblooded for regeneration, and aberrant dragonmark (he can grab shield 1/day for more protection) into mark of madness (meh. Flavor it as temporarily confusing the enemy. Think Jackie Chan) into mark of xoriat for DR 5/ byeshk. Either one of those would give him greater defence and can later be expanded on with feats should he choose.

Damage shouldnt be a problem. I think Ive seen feats tht can add extra attacks (I want to say it was called snap kick), and combined with travel devotion should help him hit and stay mobile enough to not get pinned down.

Of course, those are a lot of feats, so he may take a while to grow into them but flaws can help if you arent opposed to using them, or you could offer feats as quest rewards.

[Zaq]

I'm basically ignoring the discussion up to this point, but I feel that I would be remiss to not mention the Iron Chef Appetizer edition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?201548-Iron-Chef-Appetizer-Edition!-(e6)-II/page2&highlight=iron+chef+appetizer) (the thread for which was opened exactly six years ago today, in a neat coincidence that still makes me feel old) for Monk. If you don't remember the mournfully short-lived IC Appetizer Edition, it was basically an E6 version of Iron Chef that used base classes instead of prestige classes.

Unfortunately, the tables are now difficult to read, but since they're only six levels long, it's not that hard to piece together the important parts if you can't figure it out from the write-ups. My entry was Kolte McStonefist, and I maintain that he would be an eminently playable character. I do know that the OP specified no spellcasters in the party, but Kolte's Cleric dip pretty much completely ignored its spells (I wanted proficiencies and Turn Undead for devotion feats, not spells, and I even remarked on a variant who would take Mage Slayer, arguably making him unable to cast spells at all), so I don't think he would have necessarily felt like a spellcaster.

I will note that none of the entries actually took all six levels of Monk, which I still find to be incredibly amusing.

Of course, playing a Monk "as a Monk," if that makes sense, is another issue altogether.

[Mato]

is monk REALLY so terrible in an e6 environment?No, but under the E6 rules format the monk is one level short of his most game breaking abilities and spellcasters con continue to pick up 6th level spells as feats. One of the largest misconceptions about E6 is the thought it somehow nerfs casters, it really doesn't.


So I'm running an e6 game, and against my suggestions one of the players (who is well aware of how terrible monks typically are) decided to play a monk. It's now a few sessions in and he's starting to regret his decision, citing that his character is terrible,Help him adjust his sheet then.

Here is a quick side by side of barbarian vs monk.


Barbarian
Raging Monk (dragon 310)


rage (or whirling frenzy) 2/day
rage (or whirling frenzy) 2/day


+10ft to speed (or lion totem)
+20ft to speed


improved uncanny dodge
evasion (or invisibility)


+2 on reflex vs traps
+3 reflex/will vs everything


44hp
30hp


4 skill points per level, 7 class skills
4 skill points per level, 18 class skills


+6 bab
+4 bab (extra +2 to att & vs flat-footed if invisible)


2d6 greatsword
2d6 unarmed (with improved natural weapon)


-
three bonus feats


-
immunity to poison


-
slow fall 30ft


-
can trade ki strike for +1d6 damage against evil


can spend 200gp for +5 to ac but capped at +3 from dex, and -10ft to speed
can spend 360gp for +5 to ac, dex is uncapped and also gets +wis to ac, and speed is unaffected


Speculation: likely will take power attack, improved bull rush, & shock trooper followed by E6 bonus feats allowing it to deal 2d6+12+str (avg 28/hit or 56/rnd if he can hit twice @18str plus raging)
Attempt to mimic: can take power attack using overwhelming attack, plus shock trooper & melee weapon mastery(bludgeoning) using martial monk, allowing for improved natural weapon(unarmed strike), battle jump, and leap attack before E6 bonuses allowing it to deal 4d6+28+(strx2)+(1d6 vs evil) & rage with better chances to hit (avg 57.5/hit/rnd vs evil @18str plus raging).


Not a bad trade for 14 hp.

Edit, fixed the math.
Barb has 2d6, +12 two-handed pa, +6 (18+4) str, +3 two-handed, and two attacks (2nd one has -25% chance to hit).
Monk has 2d6, +12 leap pa, +6 (18+4) str, +2 feat, x2 damage, & +1d6 vs evil.

[Godskook]

No, but under the E6 rules format the monk is one level short of his most game breaking abilities and spellcasters con continue to pick up 6th level spells as feats. One of the largest misconceptions about E6 is the thought it somehow nerfs casters, it really doesn't.

Citation for explicitly allowing 4th+ level spells in E6?

[Eldariel]

Edit, fixed the math.
Barb has 2d6, +12 two-handed pa, +6 (18+4 str) str, & +3 two-handed.
Monk has 2d6, +12 leap pa, +6 (18+4) str, +2 feat, x2 damage, & +1d6 vs evil.

Let's not forget the more likely Guisarme + Improved Trip reach Wolf Totem Barbarian, nor the extra attack from 6 BAB. That's generally a better use of your setup as a Barbarian, as it gives you vastly increased number of threat and off-round attacks at the cost of minor damage, which is likely not gonna be very relevant. The 3 attacks from Whirling Frenzy Pouncing Charge is real nice. Also, remember that Monk move speed bonus is enhancement so it does not stack with any itemized/spell bonuses such as Haste.

[Luccan]

No, but under the E6 rules format the monk is one level short of his most game breaking abilities and spellcasters con continue to pick up 6th level spells as feats. One of the largest misconceptions about E6 is the thought it somehow nerfs casters, it really doesn't.


You mean 3rd? Even the "capstone" feats for E6 only take you up to 4th and IIRC they're recommendations, not a "required" part of the system (I'm sure there's a cheesy way to get higher level spells, but that's what it would be: cheese). It doesn't nerf them entirely down to mundane levels, but a 6th level wizard and a 6th level fighter are much closer than a 20th level wizard and a 20th level fighter. But I digress...

The E6 system has several variant feats in addition to the 4th level spells one mentioned. All are designed to give characters their 8th level abilities after they attain 6th level. I think they're supposed to gain several other feats first, but I'm sure you have access to the E6 rules, Crake. It wouldn't be unreasonable to design a feat for the monk that gives them Wholeness of Body and increased slowfall and perhaps a separate feat to increase Flurry of Blows and Unarmed Strike damage. As for his defensive worries, advise him not to charge into the middle of two enemies without backup. Even without class features, a flanking bonus is going to hurt. And you really should give him a DR option of some kind, if he doesn't want to wear armor. He's a monk, he shouldn't have too. Wis bonus or monk level to DR (or half these or whatever you think will be fair to the other players and still give him a fighting chance) should be fine.

Edit: I advise the special monk DR because the armor DR rules were clearly not written with monks in mind. Actually, Natural Armor DR does have rules. You could use his Monk AC bonus + Wis bonus to determine his DR using the Natural Armor table and just not subtract from his AC.

[Luccan]

Citation for explicitly allowing 4th+ level spells in E6?

I would need to check, but there are some recommended Capstone feats (6th level stuff) that give 4th level casting and other 8th level abilities, right?

[Soranar]

I would need to check, but there are some recommended Capstone feats (6th level stuff) that give 4th level casting and other 8th level abilities, right?

I don't see the point of allowing those (assuming they exist, I'm not sure they do) 4th level spells are when a spellcaster becomes truly difficult to deal with. There's literally too many good choices to list them all.

There's a few capstone feats that allow stuff like melee weapon spec for fighters or the like but that's a minor bonus compared to getting access to something like polymorph

[Crake]

I was already planning on making capstone feats for each of the players, giving them access to some of their 7th level abilities, so allowing the samurai to increase his sword to +2 (or +1 with an ability), giving the monk wholeness of body, which is REALLY powerful considering the lack of magical healing, and the ability to recover wound points to remove fatigue, and the ninja, probably just 4d6 sneak attack, I think that's all they get at 7th.

[Luccan]

I don't see the point of allowing those (assuming they exist, I'm not sure they do) 4th level spells are when a spellcaster becomes truly difficult to deal with. There's literally too many good choices to list them all.

There's a few capstone feats that allow stuff like melee weapon spec for fighters or the like but that's a minor bonus compared to getting access to something like polymorph

Oh i agree it's a significantly better upgrade, but it isn't something Crake will need to worry about: There are no casters in his game. I was just making sure the feat existed, as that does technically make 4th level spells possible in E6.

[Godskook]

Let's not forget the more likely Guisarme + Improved Trip reach Wolf Totem Barbarian, nor the extra attack from 6 BAB. That's generally a better use of your setup as a Barbarian, as it gives you vastly increased number of threat and off-round attacks at the cost of minor damage, which is likely not gonna be very relevant. The 3 attacks from Whirling Frenzy Pouncing Charge is real nice. Also, remember that Monk move speed bonus is enhancement so it does not stack with any itemized/spell bonuses such as Haste.

UA Material should not be considered baseline optimization, and nothing in that book should even be considered *ALLOWED* by default. Its the point of the book, really.

[Mato]

Citation for explicitly allowing 4th+ level spells in E6?The E6 rule set.

Your level is capped at 6, but the rule set actually suggests allowing you to use feats to reach lv8 in terms of BAB, spells, and class features. It also offers stone to flesh, a 6th level spell, as an example, but necessary, feat required in an E6 game according to the original creator of the rule set.


Let's not forget the more likely Guisarme + Improved Trip reach Wolf Totem Barbarian, nor the extra attack from 6 BAB.The extra attack is included, you posted while editing.

Also the monk can use passive way as for underlying weapon style instead of overwhelming attack which gives him a +4 bonus to trip checks the barbarian doesn't have if he takes the skill focus feat. Even if UA is banned, as Godskook suggests, the UAs weapon styles are a reprint of dragon magazine which contains official 3.0/3.5 content. Passive way also gives you improved trip too, but I'd use dragon's martial monk to replace your first level feat with exotic weapon proficiency (barbed chain), it deals 2d6 damage which is more than the guisarme's 2d4 and you can trip adjacent opponents. Not being able to furry with it isn't a big deal if you trade furry away for rage which gives you even more bonuses to trip. Finally that battle jump feat I mentioned also gives the monk yet another +4, or +8 above the barbarian, to trip checks.

Low ranking mundanes are dependent on feats, and the monk gets an extra three of those which helps a lot.

I was already planning on making capstone feats for each of the players, giving them access to some of their 7th level abilities,No matter how limited healing might be I'd still trade wholeness of body away for shadow blend.

[Dagroth]

I'm not using any magic items at all, the only source of DR is from armor, to contrast the class defense bonus and actually give people some incentive to wear armor at all. Currently all the party members have the same class defense bonus as they do armor bonus, so without armor as DR, they would have no benefit from wearing armor at all, which I didn't like.



Except the wis to AC isn't armor. It's not something that's physically getting in between you and an attack. I'm not the kind to introduce rules just for the sake of balance if they make no thematic sense.

Yes, I know that Wis-to-AC isn't armor... but it's very thematically appropriate to say that Monks toughen their bodies to resist blows that would kill a lesser man.

And as was said by someone else... AC as DR was obviously not written with Monks in mind.

[Gullintanni]

The E6 rule set.

Your level is capped at 6, but the rule set actually suggests allowing you to use feats to reach lv8 in terms of BAB, spells, and class features. It also offers stone to flesh, a 6th level spell, as an example, but necessary, feat required in an E6 game according to the original creator of the rule set.


This is a pretty disingenuous misrepresentation of the e6 base ruleset.

e6 suggests specifically two 4th level spells ought to be available in ALL e6 games. They are Stone to Flesh and Restoration, as capstone feats for arcane and divine casters respectively.

Accessing level 8 class features through feat chains is recommended EXCLUSIVELY in the higher powered "Lean-Up" approach to e6.

The Cautious and Gestalt approaches to e6 DO NOT recommend any access to spells or abilities above 6th level outside of those two specific spells.

[Godskook]

The E6 rule set.

Your level is capped at 6, but the rule set actually suggests allowing you to use feats to reach lv8 in terms of BAB, spells, and class features. It also offers stone to flesh, a 6th level spell, as an example, but necessary, feat required in an E6 game according to the original creator of the rule set.

This is not a citation, and as others have said already said between my comment and this, the E6 rules don't actually explicitly give access to these spells, nor imply their necessity.

I ask again for the citation. Please do not maintain the pretense that your assertion is a suitable reply.

This is the best I could find on the subject:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?206323-E6-The-Game-Inside-D-amp-D


All of these feats should be considered suggestions – each E6 game is different and it is always up to the individual GM what they want to allow.

Emphasis mine. By the above quote, which applies to all feats listed in the given source, you can see that no feat allowing access to higher than 3rd level spells is part of the core E6 ruleset. These are variants, akin to UA, and its gestalt ruleset, to be taken or not at the GM's sole discretion.

[Mato]

I consider these feats to be necessary even with the Cautious Approach; along with the SRD feats, they provide for a minimal level of continuing advancement for E6 characters, and address issues like removing negative levels.Following that is a 6th level spell to cure a status condition and a feat that lets characters under level 12 craft magical rings.

Also contained in the pdf is the following chain of information that can be read in full detail within your linked pdf.

E6 will always inherit d20’s balance issues at the same level, especially issues that result from scenarios where characters have long periods of downtime. The best approach is to be cognizant of these issues when considering what feats to allow in your E6 game.

ON ALLOWING FEATS
There are 3 philosophies on what feats to allow in an E6 game, each more generous than the last:
1) The Cautious Approach
2) The Gestalt Approach
3) The Lean Upward Approach

The Lean Upward Approach looks at the Gestalt Approach and says “6th level plus many feats is clearly more powerful than 6th level. Thus, it won’t be game-breaking to allow feat chains that bring characters from 6th level to 8th level, although this progression should be quite slow.” GMs who like the Lean Upward approach might have feats to bring BAB to +8, or to gain 4th level spells, or 8th level class features, additional hit dice, and so on.
In addition under the E6 FAQ you can find the following.

Q: What if I want there to be a higher level magical effect, but still use E6?
A: The rules for rituals in Unearthed Arcana are an excellent fit for E6, to support things like opening portals to another dimension, higher-level divinations, and so on. When a spell is a 3-day event requiring 20 mages, it’s more of a plot point than a spell itself, and that maeks it a great a springboard for challenging the players.And those rituals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) allow you to replicate spell effects up to the 9th level.

You were given a citation and you had the citation. Imo, I think you should try reading the subject before barging in and attempting to correct anyone on anything.

[Godskook]

You were given a citation and you had the citation. Imo, I think you should try reading the subject before barging in and attempting to correct anyone on anything.

Having read the subject, several times, both with and without your emphasis, I can, with a doubly educated perspective, say you are grossly wrong. The pretense that you put forth, that PCs have access to anything beyond level 6 without explicit DM allowance is just that, a pretense.

Your first quote is of the E6 author's non-RAW opinion, and thus, largely irrelevant to the topic of E6 RAW.

Your second quote is listing several options, chosen at the DM's discretion, only one of which, if chosen, might support your position. The others do not.

Your third quote is from the FAQ, asking about modifying the E6 ruleset. Please tell me you don't believe that modifications to a ruleset are fundamentally part of said ruleset.

[Crake]

No matter how limited healing might be I'd still trade wholeness of body away for shadow blend.

Except dark moon monk requires you to a) be part of a specific order of monks of which the monk is not a part of, and b) requires you to follow a deity, which does not exist. And before you say "just refluff a deity in your campaign setting" there are no deities in the campaign setting, they're all dead. That's partly why the setting is e6. There's no divine classes, with the exception of the shugenja that gets their powers from the elements, and the "nature" divine classes like ranger and druid, but they're limited to fey only (spell-less rangers are fine for anyone to take).

For this reason, all champions of valor and complete champion ACFs have been removed as options.

[Gullintanni]

Having read the subject, several times, both with and without your emphasis, I can, with a doubly educated perspective, say you are grossly wrong. The pretense that you put forth, that PCs have access to anything beyond level 6 without explicit DM allowance is just that, a pretense.

Your first quote is of the E6 author's non-RAW opinion, and thus, largely irrelevant to the topic of E6 RAW.

Your second quote is listing several options, chosen at the DM's discretion, only one of which, if chosen, might support your position. The others do not.

Your third quote is from the FAQ, asking about modifying the E6 ruleset. Please tell me you don't believe that modifications to a ruleset are fundamentally part of said ruleset.

I agree with your conclusion, but, the idea of "E6 RAW" is a little silly - it's a system of house rules. The author of the house rules really is the only source of RAW for E6.

You're correct though. Per the author, UA rituals are to be read into the game on a case by case basis, and are not part of the core E6 ruleset, and, again, per the author, only the "Lean-Up" approach is meant to contain anything more than the suggeseted capstone feats included in the E6 core document.

[Godskook]

but, the idea of "E6 RAW" is a little silly

Remember the silly premise I'm arguing -against-, that E6 somehow does "nothing" to limit casters because they have carte blanche access to spells above 3rd, while a parity Monk in the same game can't get his 7th level class ability.

Personally, I don't even use E6 in my E6-esque game at all, except for the initial premise, but even with access to higher-level spells via scrolls, martials can keep pace quite readily at that level.

[Mato]

And before you say "just refluff a deity in your campaign setting" there are no deities in the campaign setting, they're all dead.I don't see how invoking rule zero to kill the deities and claim divine spellcasters cannot obtain their spells from the Alignments as the PHB suggests cannot be fixed by invoking the very same rule zero to ignore the flavor-element of worshiping a deity requirement and allow the ACF.

But as the DM, it is in your right to add and remove resources to limit your player's ability to make divisions and choose certain things as you like. Whether or not your restrictions are be having an impact on your player's enjoyment of the game or making him feel like he has made bad choices is something you need to work out with him and reassess your stance on things. The only thing I can voice is in fitting to the thread, no the monk is not a bad choice and there are several options that can be presented to help out. The advice, that is what you are here for rather than just seeking confirmation on your opinion, that you choose to take, or ignore, is up to you.


Remember the silly premise I'm arguing -against-, that E6 somehow does "nothing" to limit casters because they have carte blanche access to spells above 3rd, while a parity Monk in the same game can't get his 7th level class ability.That is a pretty silly premise isn't it?

E6 specifically limits your level to try to try keep you from leaving the heroic fantasy scale and going wuxia or superhero and to claim it also fully bans spell access really is pretty foolish since they are not really the same thing. E6 is about changing one of d20 fantasy’s essential assumptions, like instead of referring to your wizard as Batman or using that animeish wuxia book (what was it called again the tome of named-attacks?) that everyone had shouting matches over.

E6 recognizes that 6th level characters are mortal, while providing a context where they are epic heroes. Which is why E6 wanted you to do things like assemble twenty spellcasters together to create a ritual to reduce a CR21 Titan into a CR11 Aspect of Kord and why later on it tells you ritual rules are great and it never once says higher level spells are banned. Instead of one of hell's ruling Pit Fiends being summoned on the whim of a higher level caster, you need to think of spinning that into an epic story about how twenty low ranking Imps came together and attempted to summon their master and commander.

And sometimes people can pick up the wrong impression. Like E6 doesn't just allow a dragonspawn kobold with the greater rite of passage, it's rules expressly allow you to ignore the LA rules that would have normally made that combination impossible to achieve 4th level spells by ECL 6. It's fine with the linear scale of obtaining 8th level class features slowly as feats and loves the idea of higher level spells as rituals so much that it is a direct official recommendation.

If your only experience with the material is GitP's forums and if you've only been told E6 limits you to 6th level, it's very easy to trip into the assumption that E6 is some kind of antimagic rule set designed to nerf casters. And once you made that assumption it can be very easy to pick and choose things that disagree with your misunderstanding, like picking and choosing things such as the FAQ material provided in the PDF should be ignored, or to stretch it's feat entry "E6 will always inherit d20’s balance issues at the same level, especially issues that result from scenarios where characters have long periods of downtime. The best approach is to be cognizant of these issues when considering what feats to allow in your E6 game." to apply to stuff like psionic minor creation.

But I choose that quote to highlight one thing, E6 will always inherit d20’s balance issues. It was never meant to be a fix or a means for mundanes to be equal to or better than spellcasters and it even suggests this

The wizard could kill everyone in your village with a few words. The fighter could duel with ten armed guards in a row and kill every one of them.by saying the wizard can kill one thousand people hidden in buildings instantly but the fighter is only expected to be able to fight ten people sequentially, which means one at a time, and be successful.

You need houserules like Crake's to actually deal with casters.

[Luccan]

But I choose that quote to highlight one thing, E6 will always inherit d20’s balance issues. It was never meant to be a fix or a means for mundanes to be equal to or better than spellcasters and it even suggests this
by saying the wizard can kill one thousand people hidden in buildings instantly but the fighter is only expected to be able to fight ten people sequentially, which means one at a time, and be successful.

You need houserules like Crake's to actually deal with casters.

You realize the writer probably wasn't using the DMGs definition of village size, right? 1000 people would be huge in a lot of medieval fantasy.

[Godskook]

That is a pretty silly premise isn't it?

Glad you can admit that your premise is silly.


to claim it also fully bans spell access really is pretty foolish since they are not really the same thing.

Nobody has made this claim..... Just 4th+ level spells.


If your only experience with the material is GitP's forums and if you've only been told E6 limits you to 6th level, it's very easy to trip into the assumption that E6 is some kind of antimagic rule set designed to nerf casters.

My primary experiences with E6 are, in order of relevance:

-Running it in my own game
-Reading the E6 rules, not on this forum
-Discussing the E6 rules on various fora, only one of which is this one.

Given that experience set, plus the best examples put forth by you to contradict my opinion, I remain steadfast in the assessment that E6 does a wonderful job of nerfing casters by almost entirely eliminating their access to 4th+ level spells.


You need houserules like Crake's to actually deal with casters.

I'm under no pretense that E6 is sufficient to plug every hole casters could possibly punch in the system, but it most definitely does nerf them in ways explicitly contrary to the initial claim I was contending against.