Help please! Beguiler DC

[Kiyona]

Hi!

So, yesterday was my first time playing a beguiler. I really love the class and the fluff is very much my style.

Unfortunatly... i didnt get a single one of my spells to work cause all the bad guys made theire will saves. Wich is kinda boring. Dont like feeling useless. ^^

Im a lvl 12 human beguiler with spell focus och greater spell focus in both ill and enc. How can i increase the DC even more? I want to be able to dominate. ^^

[mostlyharmful]

Robe of the Archmagi, ability increasing items like ioun stones and headbands, heighten spell feat, umm.... I'm sure there's more but i dont have an item compendium in frount of me.

[Ikkitosen]

Headband of Intellect is mandatory. Pump your Int!

Or, against strong-willed opponents, use Illusions that they don't have to interact with. No save that way, just requires extra sneakiness on your part.

[Reinboom]

Shadow Weave Magic - This is dependent on either setting or DM though.
Battle Magic Tactics - From MMV, this is dependent on if your party has other spellcasters who like targeting enemies.

there are other things like these, but, most other DC increases are dependent on something unlikely.

[Zincorium]

Well, the biggest components in saves are ability scores (intelligence in your case) and spell level. We can probably assume that you are pumping your charisma as much as possible and using higher spell levels when you think you need them (if those assumptions are wrong, let us know, so we can get more into damage control). Your cloaked casting should be improving the DC by one against opponents in many situations, such as when you are invisible, so you should be able to get some mileage out of that.

However, with most monster types, will saves are horrible, so the problem is most likely either the DM was rolling very well (or fudging, and abusing that ability) or you are simply fighting the wrong types of enemies for mind affecting spells. Even then, a DC of 18+your intelligence for your highest level enchantment spells should be hitting at least occasionally. I'm thinking the DM is nerfing you to at least some degree, but I can't back that up.

If you can give us a general idea of what you were facing, whether you were using your highest level spells, etc. that would help us help you easier.

Finally, sometimes you just have to sit back and buff the party, sorry. Fighting against constructs, undead, plants, and anything else immune to mind affecting spells is going to make any improvement to the DC meaningless, so you might as well come up with some good stratagems for when those monsters make appearances.

[Kiyona]

yeah, I have a +4 enchantment to intellect already. 22 int ^^

Zincorium, I do use mostly higher lvl spells, so thats not the problem. However, i didnt know that you dont get saves from illuisions. Thanks Ikkitosen^^

We mostly fought humans, and some orcs. The mindflayer was a bit mean... but i didnt really expect to succeed on that one. But i really think i should have been able to charm atleast one of the orcs. Or the halfdragon minotaur.

Oddly enough, the beguiler use int to cast spells. Is there a way to use charisma instead?? ^^

[Ikkitosen]

You only get a save vs. an illusion if you interact with it. Although a fluffy way of putting it, there's a set of articles on the wizards site called "All About Illusions" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) that are well worth reading. I recently started a Beguiler and have found them very useful.

[Kiyona]

You only get a save vs. an illusion if you interact with it. Although a fluffy way of putting it, there's a set of articles on the wizards site called "All About Illusions" that are well worth reading. I recently started a Beguiler and have found them very useful.

Ok, I'll have to look that up when i get home. Wizards webpage is blocked at my work computer... :smallmad:

[Ikkitosen]

Formatting may not be all you could wish for...

One can use an illusion spell to simulate just about anything a person can dream up -- though more complex examples of phantasmagoria are beyond the limits of lower-level illusion spells. Still, the illusion school caters to player and DM creativity to a degree no other school can match.

It's no surprise that illusion spells cause difficulties in play, especially when players start testing the spells' limits. Fortunately for beleaguered DMs and confused players, the rules offer some pretty strong guidelines for handling illusion spells. As is often the case, it can prove tough to remember and follow those guidelines when a gaming session really starts to heat up. In this series, we'll examine what the rules have to say about illusion spells and offer some practical tips for applying them during a game.

This series draws heavily on an earlier Rules of the Game series:Reading Spell Descriptions and on the discussion of the illusion school on pages 173-174 in the Player's Handbook.

From pages 173-174 of the Player's Handbook:

Illusion

Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened. Representative illusions include silent image, invisibility, and veil. Illusions come in five types: figments, glamers, patterns, phantasms, and shadows.

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. For example, it is possible to use a silent image spell to create an illusory cottage, but the cottage offers no protection from rain.

A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (It's all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor, the character in the lead would receive a saving throw if she stopped and studied the floor or if she probed the floor.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. For example, a character making a successful saving throw against a figment of an illusory section of floor knows the "floor" isn't safe to walk on and can see what lies below (light permitting), but he or she can still note where the figment lies.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.


Illusion Basics

As with any spell in the D&D game, a look at the spell's header (the tabulated information that precedes the text description for the spell) can settle many questions about how the spell works. For a quick tour of the spell header, see Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions, Parts Two through Six.

Most difficulties that arise from an illusion spell vanish when you consider a few key elements in the header. These include the following:

The spell's subschool.
The illusion school has five subschools: figment, glamer, pattern, phantasm, and shadow. Each school has distinct properties that define how the spell works. When determining exactly what the caster can accomplish with an illusion spell, first consider the subschool.

The spell's area, target, or effect entry.
This entry determines how you can aim the spell and where whatever you create with it can go after the spell takes effect. Many illusion spells produce images that can't move (or move very far), which limits the sorts of things the caster can do with the spell.

The spell's saving throw entry.
Some illusion spells have a kind of saving throw that poses some difficulties of its own.

Illusion Subschools

If you remember what illusion spells of each subschool can do, you'll avoid a lot of hassles (and dashed expectations) in play. Here's an overview:

Figment: These spells create false sensations of creatures, objects, or forces. A figment always must create the impression of something new. It cannot make something seem to be something else. For example, you can use a figment to create an illusory cover for an open pit (more about this in Part Four). You cannot, however, use it to conceal a trap door since that would be making something seem like something else.

If a figment spell can produce sound, it cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says so.

A figment is unreal and cannot produce real effects; it can't deal damage, support weight, provide nutrition, or act as a barrier (except that a visible figment can block line of sight). You can use a figment to fool opponents, but you can't harm them or affect them directly. For example, a wall of figment flames might cause foes to halt or make a detour, but it won't burn anything.

If you create the image of a creature with a figment spell, you usually can make it move around, but only within the spell's area, which usually isn't mobile. An illusory creature created with a figment spell cannot deal any damage. You can send it into combat, however. The figment has an Armor Class of 10 + its size modifier (see page 173 in the Player's Handbook). The rules don't say what a figment's attack bonus is. Your attack bonus is a good default; remember that a figment cannot deal damage or have any other real effect, however.

Glamer: A glamer spell makes the recipient look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Beware of attempts to use figments as glamers. For example, you can use a figment to create an apple tree, but you can't use a figment to make your buddy look like an apple tree. You'd need a glamer spell to perform the latter trick.

Like a figment, a glamer can't have any real effects. If you use a glamer to make your human buddy look like an apple tree, you can't pick edible apples from the character.

Pattern: A pattern spell creates a visible magical image. The spellcaster usually doesn't have control over the image's appearance; instead, the spell usually specifies how the pattern looks. A pattern's image has some affect on viewers' minds. All patterns have the mind-affecting descriptor. Patterns have no effects on creatures that cannot see. Unlike a figment or glamer, a pattern can have real effects; however, those effects are limited to those set out in the spell description.

Phantasm: These spells create mental images. Usually, only the caster and the spell's recipient (or recipients) can perceive the image a phantasm spell creates. All phantasms have the mind-affecting descriptor. Like a pattern, a phantasm can have real effects, as set out in the spell description. Also like a pattern, a phantasm's exact details usually aren't under the caster's control.

Because a phantasm exists in the recipient's mind, the recipient can perceive it no matter what its sensory capabilities are.

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real, but made mostly from extradimensional energies the caster brings together with the spell. A shadow is similar to a figment, but it can have real effects because it's partially real itself. Unlike a figment, a shadow spell usually limits what the caster can duplicate or depict with the spell.

A shadow's physical characteristics (such as ability scores, Armor Class, attack bonus, hit points, and the like) are defined in the spell description, and they might vary depending on what the shadow depicts or duplicates. Part Four has more to say about shadows.

Last week, we examined illusion subschools and considered what an illusion spell's subschool says about what the spell can do. This week, we'll continue our look at illusion basics by considering two other key elements in an illusion spell.

Aiming Illusion Spells

As noted in Part One, a spell's area, target, or effect entry determines how and where the caster can aim the spell.

Area: Any spell that has an area entry fills some volume of space when it takes effect. Most spell areas are immobile after they're cast, but be on the lookout for area spells that are portable. The silence spell, for example, is an illusion spell with an area (an emanation) that can be centered on a mobile object or on a creature so that the spell's effects move along with it.

Illusion spells that have area entries often affect subjects that are in the area at the time the spell is cast or that enter the area while the spell lasts. This is particularly true of illusion spells from the pattern subschool, such as rainbow pattern. Subjects that merely see the pattern from outside the area it fills aren't affected.

Other illusion spells create a false sensation throughout the area or alter an area's sensory properties. Spells from the glamer subschool often have areas that work this way. Examples include hallucinatory terrain and mirage arcana. Anyone with line of sight to such a spell's area can notice whatever sensation the spell produces, even from outside the spell's area (provided that the creature has the appropriate senses). For example, if you use a hallucinatory terrain spell to make an empty patch of sand look like an oasis, anyone who can see that patch of sand sees the illusion you have created. Audible illusions might remain audible even without line of sight. For example, if you create the image of a creaky windmill, creatures nearby can hear the mill creaking even when it's too dark to see the mill.

Effect: A spell with an effect entry produces something. An illusion spell with an effect entry produces a sound, smell, texture, taste, visual image, or some combination of the five. Spells from the figment subschool often have effect entries that look a great deal like areas. The effect entry specifies a maximum volume for the image (or images) the spell produces.

You can make images you create move around, but only with the volume limit set for the spell. For example, you could use a major image spell to create an illusory guard that paces around a room, but you can't make your illusory guard accompany you wherever you go (unless you stay inside the spell's volume limit).

As with an area illusion, anyone nearby can perceive an effect illusion. For instance, the marching guard from the previous example can be seen and heard just as a real guard could be.

Target: When a spell has a target entry, you select one or more recipients to receive the spell (there might be limits to the targets you can select, see Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions, Part Five). In any case, all your targets must be in range and you must have line of effect to them. If you don't have line of sight to a recipient, you still can select it as a target if you can touch it.

Once a target receives a spell, the spell's effect moves along with it.

Because glamer spells change the recipient's sensory properties, most glamers have target entries (often the caster or something the caster touches). Phantasms, which affect the recipient's mind, also usually have target entries.

As with illusion spells that have area or effect entries, anyone with line of sight to the recipient of a targeted illusion spell perceives the illusion the spell creates (except for phantasms, as noted earlier). For example, the invisibility spell makes a subject vanish from sight. Anyone looking at the space containing the invisible subject sees nothing (or at least does not see the subject).

Saving Throws and Illusion Spells

Most spells' saving throw entries are self-explanatory; however, some illusion spells have a kind of saving throw that causes a few problems.

Most figment spells (and a few other illusions) have saving throw entries that read: "Will disbelief (if interacted with)." This can prove maddeningly vague, especially when someone decides to start splitting hairs. Anyone who has played the game for more than a few hours knows what a Will save is. But what is the effect of disbelief and what constitutes interaction?

From pages 173-174 of the Player's Handbook:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor, the character in the lead would receive a saving throw if she stopped and studied the floor or if she probed the floor.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. For example, a character making a successful saving throw against a figment of an illusory section of floor knows the "floor" isn't safe to walk on and can see what lies below (light permitting), but he or she can still note where the figment lies.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.


Disbelief

Page 173 in the Player's Handbook covers disbelief in detail. The text there can be summed up fairly easily. If you make a successful saving throw against an illusion effect and disbelieve it, you stop perceiving the illusion and it has no effect on you at all. Illusions from the figment or glamer subschools, however, remain behind as faint, translucent outlines even after you successfully disbelieve them. These see-through remnants have no effects on you at all, but serve to remind you that the illusion is there. It also reminds you of those things with which other less perceptive individuals might have to deal. The rules use an illusory section of floor (presumably a figment) as an example. If you have disbelieved the illusion, you see the floor (light permitting) as it is; that is, with a gaping hole in it. You also see the outlines of the illusion, however, which can prove handy when an unsuspecting ally comes on the scene. In fact, you can convey your knowledge to your ally and grant your pal a saving throw bonus (see Pointing Out Illusions in Part Three).

The rules don't say what happens if you successfully disbelieve a figment or glamer that doesn't have a visual element. It's a safe bet, however, that you remain aware of the figment or glamer without being affected or hindered in any way.

Last week, we considered how casters aim illusion spells and began a discussion about disbelieving illusions. This week we'll consider a few more aspects of disbelief -- including the crucial step of interacting with an illusion.

Interacting With Illusions

According to page 173 in the Player's Handbook, you don't receive a saving throw against an illusion effect with a disbelief saving throw until you study the illusion carefully or interact with it in some way. The text uses an illusory floor as an example. The character in the example provided there gets a saving throw by stopping to examine the floor (study) or by probing the floor (interaction).

For game purposes, we can define "studying" an illusion as taking an action (which DMs can choose to make a move action since this is an extrapolation of the rules and not an actual rule) to observe an illusion effect and note its details. Some DMs I know require a Spot or Search check to disbelieve an illusion. That's going too far. Merely pausing and using an action to make the check is enough to allow a saving throw.

Also for game purposes, we can define "interacting" with an illusion as doing something that could affect the illusion or allowing the illusion to have an affect on you. You have a valid claim to an interaction with an illusion when you attack it, touch it, talk to it, poke it with a stick, target it with a spell, or do something else that one might do with a real creature or object.

The key to disbelieving an illusion is investing some time and effort in the illusion. If you decide to ignore the illusion, you don't get a saving throw to disbelieve it. Let's consider the illusory guard from a previous example. The guard is a figment created with a major imagespell, and the caster has left the illusory guard to prowl around a chamber. A character entering or looking into the chamber might react to the illusory guard in several ways, some of which will allow a saving throw to disbelieve and some that will not. Here are just a few possibilities:

The character tries to sneak past the guard.
Although both hiding and moving silently are resolved with opposed skill checks, the character really isn't doing anything that could affect the illusion and isn't really interacting with it. It would be best to call for the appropriate checks from the sneaking character and then pretend to make the opposed rolls (the illusory guard cannot see or hear the character). The character doesn't get a saving throw against the illusion.

The character attacks the guard.
Attacking an illusion is a definite interaction. The character makes the attack, using at least a standard action to do so. Hit or miss, the character makes a Will save to disbelieve the illusion immediately after making the attack roll.

If the attack hits, the character probably should disbelieve automatically (see Automatic Interactions or Automatic Disbelief, below) as the character sees and feels the weapon passing through the figment with no effect (just like swinging the weapon through empty air). If the illusion in question were a shadow instead of a figment, a successful attack would not result in automatic disbelief (there's something solid to hit there).

The character takes a moment to observe the guard's movements.
The DM can choose to make this at least a move action for the character -- as noted earlier, this is an extrapolation of the rules, not an actual rule. No check is required, and the character makes a saving throw to disbelieve the illusion as part of the action used to observe the guard.

The character tries to identify the guard's uniform or insignia (or simply looks for the same).
This kind of scrutiny merits a standard action. The character makes a Spot or Search check to look over the guard's gear (or possibly an appropriate Knowledge check). A successful check reveals something about the guard's gear. For example, if the illusion's caster included insignia or if a particular uniform style is included in the figment, the check reveals those. In any case, the character makes a saving throw to disbelieve the illusion as part of the action used to study the guard, even if the check fails to uncover any details.

The character taunts the guard or asks the guard a question.
This one might qualify as an interaction, or it might not. Speaking usually is a free action, but meaningful communication between two creatures takes up some time.

From page 144 of the Player's Handbook:

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Some DMs may rule that a character can only speak on his turn, or that a character can't speak while flatfooted (and thus can't warn allies of a surprise threat until he has a chance to act). Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action; to communicate more information than that, your DM may require that you take a move action or even a full-round action.


If the character and the guard are alone and there hasn't been an initiative roll, the character needs to stick around to note the guard's reaction to the taunt or wait for the guard's reply to truly interact with the illusion. (That's the equivalent of a move or standard action.) The character makes a saving throw to disbelieve the illusion as part of the action used to communicate with the guard.

If this interaction occurs during an encounter, the character could speak as a free action, but she probably would have to wait until the following round to attempt a saving throw to disbelieve. (A real creature would need the same interval to respond, probably using a free action itself.)

Automatic Disbelief

According to the Player's Handbook, if you're faced with proof that an illusion isn't real, you disbelieve the illusion without making a saving throw. The rules give a few examples of "proof" that an illusion isn't real. If you step on an illusory floor and fall through, you know that floor isn't real. Likewise, if you poke around an illusory floor and your hand (or the implement you're using as a probe) goes through the floor, you know the floor isn't real.

It's worth noting that in both examples the illusion fails to function as a real object would. A real floor is solid. It supports your weight (unless it breaks under you), and you can't push objects or parts of your body through it. A character could create an illusion that reacts appropriately when disturbed (with a programmed image spell, for example). In such cases, a character interacting with the illusion still must make a saving throw to disbelieve the illusion. For example, if you use a programmed image spell to create an illusory floor that collapses when someone touches it or walks in it, that's consistent with the way at least some real floors work and a saving throw is required to disbelieve even when someone falls through it.

The rules don't say so, but if you create an illusion that allows a saving throw for disbelief, you automatically disbelieve it (you know it isn't real because you created it).

Automatic Interactions

As noted in Part Two, you must take some action that could affect an illusion before you can attempt to make a saving throw to disbelieve it. Some illusion spells, however, allow saves to disbelieve even when you don't use an action to interact with them. The ventriloquism spell, for example, allows a saving throw to disbelieve whenever you hear the figment sound the spell produces. It always pays to read an illusion spell's description for such exceptions to the general rule.

Dealing with the Unbelievable: The rules governing illusions assume that the spellcaster is at least trying to create something believable. When an illusion spell allows a saving throw for disbelief and the caster creates something unbelievably weird, it's best to allow an immediate saving throw. You're the best judge of what's unbelievable in your campaign. In a world where dogs breathe fire (hell hounds), immense dragons fly through the air, and wizards can shoot bolts of lightning from their fingertips, what's unbelievable covers a tiny slice indeed. Still, if the illusion caster is just being silly (singing carnivorous vegetables, bloodsucking bunnies, dancing hippos), it's best to just roll a saving throw.

Pointing Out Illusions

According to page 174 in the Player's Handbook, a character who successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates that information to others grants those other characters a +4 bonus on saving throws to disbelieve the illusion. The rules don't specifically say so, but a character claiming the bonus still must use an action to study or interact with the illusion before attempting a saving throw.

Last week, we explored what it means to interact with an illusion and we also considered a few instances where interacting with an illusion isn't strictly necessary to disbelieve the illusion. This week, we'll wrap up our study of illusions with a few odds and ends related to the topic.

Using Figments Well

As noted in Part One, spellcasters often make the mistake of trying to use figment spells (such as silent image, minor image, and major image) to make something look like something else. Figment spells don't do that -- you need a glamer spell for the task. You can craft a figment to fit in with its surroundings or to conceal something. Consider these situations:

A party wishes to hide in a dungeon room just beyond an archway.
You cannot use a figment to make the archway look like an unbroken wall. You can, however, use a figment to make the archway look like it has been bricked up; the edges of the bricked area will conform to the archway. You also could use a figment to create an illusory door that fills the doorway. You could even include hinges for the door (set atop the frame of the arch) and a big lock.

You wish to draw some bad guys into an ambush by creating a false oasis in the desert.
You cannot use a figment to make empty sand look like an oasis. You still can create an illusory oasis with one or more figment effects. You can create an illusory pool of water to fill a depression in the sand, and you can sprinkle the area with illusory palm trees and undergrowth.

If the area is very flat, you won't be able to create a believable figment pool of water, but you might get away with a spring where water bubbles to the surface and soaks back into the sand.

A party caught in the open wants to hide from an airborne foe.
A figment can't make the party look like they aren't there. It can, however, make them a place to hide. You could use a figment spell to make an illusory house, a grove of trees (with leafy branches for concealment), or even a hill or big rock. The party will be concealed so long as the characters stay underneath the illusion.

A Few Additional Notes on Figments

The foregoing examples also serve to illustrate concepts from Parts Two and Three:

Characters hiding behind or under the illusions here need to make saving throws to successfully disbelieve them (assuming they want to do so). The caster, however, knows the illusions aren't real. If the caster points out the illusions, the characters get a +4 bonus on their saves; in this case, the DM might want to waive the saving throws and assume disbelief to save time.

In any case, a successful saving throw against a figment spell reveals the figment to be unreal, but still visible (if it's a visible figment) as a see-through outline. This is helpful to characters using a figment for concealment because they can see right through the figment and also know exactly where the figment is so that they can remain concealed.

In many cases, creatures who are unaware that illusion magic is at work probably will not gain saving throws to disbelieve the figments in these examples. A creature in the vicinity of one of these figments probably would pass right by without taking any action to study or interact with the figment and gain a saving throw. This, however, applies only to creatures passing casually though the area. A creature that is deliberately searching for the party that the figments in these examples conceal probably will poke around long enough to gain a saving throw through study or interaction (or might simply stumble through the figment). Likewise, a creature that is very familiar with the locale where the figments have been placed probably will note the sudden appearance of a new feature and gain an immediate saving throw (because doors, oases, and hills don't just spring up in a matter of minutes or hours usually).

Illusions and Mindless Creatures

Unraveling an illusion is partly a matter of intellect, but mostly a matter of analysis and perception. Any creature can attempt to disbelieve an illusion because every creature has a Wisdom score. A mindless creature, however, is much less likely to find something just plainly unbelievable (and thus gain a saving throw to disbelieve with no study or interaction) than a creature with an Intelligence score would be. A mindless creature lacks an internal catalog of memories and expectations that can generate the level of incredulity required to evoke instant disbelief.

Illusions and Objects

Objects have no senses and no Wisdom scores. They cannot disbelieve an illusion, but they can't perceive it either.

Shadows are a special case. A shadow is partly real and can affect an object just as anything real can. Shadow spells that have a reduced effect when disbelieved generally have reduced effects against objects because objects can't believe them. Check the description of the shadow spell in question to be sure. For example, objects automatically are assumed to make their saving throws against the various shadow conjuration and shadow evocation spells presented in the Player's Handbook. In other cases, follow the rules for object saving throws against spells (in most cases an unattended, nonmagical object doesn't get a saving throw against a spell).

More Fun With Shadows

In most cases, what applies to a figment spell also applies to a shadow spell, with one important exception: A shadow is partially real. A shadow can have real effects, even when a subject disbelieves the shadow.

A shadow's quasi-real nature can pose some problems in play. Here are a few tips and reminders for handling shadows:

A shadow is only partially real whether a subject believes it is real or not. A shadow's degree of reality is expressed as a percentage given in the spell description. For example, a creature conjured with a shadow conjuration spell is only 20% real.
Certain aspects of a shadow always depend on its degree of reality. These aspects include hit points.

Other aspects of a shadow remain fixed, no matter what its degree of reality. These include gross dimensions (height, width, thickness), superficial details (color, shape, anatomical features), attack bonus (but see below), saving throw bonuses, skill scores, and ability scores. For example, a shadow ogre mage (page 200 in the Monster Manual) that is 20% real has 5 Hit Dice, but only 7 hit points (20% of 37, rounded down to the nearest whole number). Its initiative and speed ratings are unchanged. Its Armor Class depends on whether its attacker believes it is real. The rest of the monster's statistics are unchanged, though some of its combat results will be reduced against foes who have successfully disbelieved it.

When a creature believes a shadow is real, the shadow interacts with that creature exactly like the real creature or object it depicts, except as noted previously.
A shadow creature strikes in combat for full damage if the other creature believes it is real. It likewise has its full Armor Class bonus if the creature attacking it believes it is real. Nevertheless, the shadow has only part of its real counterpart's hit points.

When a creature successfully disbelieves a shadow, the shadow has a partially real effect when interacting with that creature.

When dealing with a partially real effect from a shadow, first attempt to reduce the effect according to the shadow's degree of reality. If the aspect can be expressed as a number, you simply reduce it accordingly. Be sure, however, that you apply the reduction only once to any particular number. For instance the shadow ogre mage from the previous example normally strikes with its greatsword for 3d6+7 points of damage. Against a foe who has successfully disbelieved it, the shadow ogre mage uses its normal attack bonus of +7, but deals only 20% of its usual damage with a successful hit. Roll damage normally, but apply only 20% of the resulting damage. For example, the shadow ogre mage hits and rolls 3d6+7 points of damage for a total of 19 points. It deals only 3 points (20% of 19, rounded down to the nearest whole number). When the disbelieving foe attacks the shadow ogre mage, its Armor Class is calculated as follows: base 10 (unchanged), -1 size (unchanged), +1 additional bonus (+5 natural, +4 chain shirt; that is an unadjusted total +9; 20% of that is 1.8, rounded down to the nearest whole number). The disbelieving foe has to contend with AC 11, touch 9, flat-footed 11. If the shadow ogre mage had a Dexterity bonus, that, too, would be added into the pool of AC bonuses that would be reduced.

The shadow ogre mage still occupies 10 feet of space on the battlefield, and it has a reach of 10 feet. It conducts combat as a Large creature.

You might wonder why the size modifier wasn't altered for the shadow ogre mage's Armor Class. The shadow ogre mage is still tall and broad enough to present a big target, so size still has its full effect (as it would if the shadow combatant were small enough to gain an Armor Class bonus).

Being only part real cannot make a creature a more capable foe. Do not reduce Dexterity penalties when calculating a shadow's Armor Class.

The shadow ogre mage has its full suite of spell-like abilities. Its damage-dealing ability, cone of cold, works normally against a disbeliever, except that the damage dealt is only 20% of normal. Its other abilities (darkness, invisibility, charm person, flight, and regeneration) aren't so easy to handle. I recommend that any ability that affects only the shadow creature work normally (in this case, invisibility , flight, and regeneration). Powers that can affect others or the creature's surroundings (darkness and charm person) have only a 20% chance to work when theshadow ogre mage uses them. Roll percentile dice, and on a roll of 81 or higher, the power in question has its full effect. Otherwise, it has no effects at all.

You can use this method to deal with any ability a shadow creature has. First look to a numerical damage value or AC bonus you can reduce. If there is none, roll to determine if the ability takes effect.

Note that there's a well-known trick of taking a level of Mindbender before you get your second Advanced Learning so that you can take higher level spells from said ALs. Shadow Evocation/Conjuration will add a lot of versatility and power to your Beguiler.

[Zincorium]

Well, even the advanced mindflayer in the monstrous manual, which would have been a near DEFINITE TPK, would have still needed an 8 or above to succeed, doable of course but still a fairly good chance of failure. And that is about the most I can see the DM reasonably throwing at you.

Further mechanics:

A half dragon minotaur with enough class levels (assuming a class with good will saves) to be an overwhelming challenge (base 4, +2 half dragon, 10 associated class levels) would have a base save of +12. And the minotaur wouldn't have a wisdom bonus without exceptional ability scores, placing the CR even further up. Dropping down 4 class levels to a more reasonable CR 12 would leave it at 10. This is taking into account that dragon HD have a good will save.

A save versus a DC of 25 (6th level spell, 22 int, greater spell focus, flatfooted opponent, very easy with invisibility as a castable spell) means that even the overwhelmingly powerful and somewhat improbably minotaur still needed an above average roll to succeed at the save. If you got more than three spells off and none of them worked, the DM was seriously messing with the mechanics of it all in a way that nerfed your character badly.

Don't even get me started on the orcs.

[Reinboom]

May I also emphasize to find a way to quicken if you are not already doing so?
Making them try to save more often = the more often they will fail it over a given period of time.

[Kiyona]

Thank you ikkitosen, your an angel. ^^

Zincorium, there is still the chance that he accually had very lucky dice.
The minotaur was flying, so no flanking for me, and he had a cloak of resistance. But still. I think i should have gotten at least one spell right.

The mind flayer, or maybe it was an illithid, buffed the orcs, so they got higher saves from that. Still a bit grumpy though. I want to be able to contribute. As it was, tha warforged and the frenzied berserker really outshone me in a very ridicoulos way.

[evisiron]

Just to mention, as no-one else has, (maybe too obvious) to make sure you cast the good stuff while your opponent is flat footed, as beguilers get a bonus to the DC if they cast against flat footed opponents. You can also use the feint beguiler ability to make your opponent flat footed to you for your next turn whether attacking or casting a spell.

I am currently playing a third level gnome beguiler in an IRL campaign, and it is going pretty well. However, things are starting to shrug off the sleep spells, so I too am trying to pump up my DC.

Just to check, is Int definately used for the DC? I thought it was 10+Caster level + Spell level, but may be wrong.

[Kiyona]

Just to mention, as no-one else has, (maybe too obvious) to make sure you cast the good stuff while your opponent is flat footed, as beguilers get a bonus to the DC if they cast against flat footed opponents. You can also use the feint beguiler ability to make your opponent flat footed to you for your next turn whether attacking or casting a spell.

Yeah, I do that, but its only +1 DC on lvl 12.

Oh, it would be great if it was caster lvl. I thought it was Int modifier, but if its not, it would be fantastic. =) Suddenly my enchantment spells would have a DC 28. 29 with cloaked casting. ^^

[mostlyharmful]

Nope, it would make sense but no:smallfrown: , its 10+ casting ability modifier + spell level. Which is half of why headbands are so awesome, they pump the DC and give bonus spells.

[Ikkitosen]

Thank you ikkitosen, your an angel. ^^

Most welcome :smallsmile:

Yeah, if your DM is worried about you being overpowered and therefore bumps everythings' will save up a notch you may be in trouble. Cloaked Casting is a waste of time generally - it's a nice boon for when you're invisible (often!) but not worth closing to melee to use with feinting.

If you're going to get one spell past your opponents' defenses you could try Mind Fog, but tbh with a Frenzied Beserker inthe group I doubt you'll have time to get this through and then cast something good before he's killed it (and possibly you).

Of course you might find a niche in controlling the FB after the baddies are dead, but that's hardly glamorous...

So, buff your DCs as suggested, confuse the heck out of people with illusions and hope your DM realises you're not massively overpowering the game and backs off on the Insubstantial Torque of +10 to Will saves vs. Beguiler Spells items.

[Kiyona]

Of course you might find a niche in controlling the FB after the baddies are dead, but that's hardly glamorous...

Hehe, yeah that is what I am currently doing. But mostly since my ini sucks, so the other players keep leaving me alone with him. ^^ Unfortunatly it is very hard for me to even charm him since frenzy gives you bonus to will.

Hm... mind fog. What did that one do? This is my third time ever playing DND, so my grasp of the spells at hand is not very good.

[Ikkitosen]

Mind Fog is an area of effect spell that imposes a -10 to will saves to anyone caught in it for as long as they stay and for 2D6 rounds afterward.

Unfortunately, if they make an initial Will save they're unaffected. For really long battles where you have lots of foes it can be good, but otherwise why not just get Dominate through on that failed save?

Don't forget you can use Invisibility and Zone of Silence (and Hide and Move Silently skills) to sneak up on people, so even if your initiative sucks you might get to go first thanks to the suprise round.

[Kiyona]

[QUOTE=Ikkitosen;2976989] Unfortunately, if they make an initial Will save they're unaffected. QUOTE]

Mm, that is a problem. But it sounds like a really nifty spell. ^^

Same problem I had when I was fighting the orc chief, I gave up on casting my ill and enc spells after a while and tried to throw a good old fireball at him.
(shadow evo) But... he got a will save against that as welll

[Ikkitosen]

1. Get wands of explodey death

2. Pump Use Magic Device Skill

3. Profit!

[Kiyona]

1. Get wands of explodey death

2. Pump Use Magic Device Skill

3. Profit!

Haha, I will do that as soon as we get back to town. ^^

I have a few wands of cure since we dont have a healer. And so does my pseudodragon rogue cohort. Never thought about getting wands of hurting people as well. ^^

[Ikkitosen]

Not perfect, but they'll get you back in the game somewhat. Look for spells with no save like Orb of X from Complete Arcane for damage or Black Tentacles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blackTentacles.htm) from the SRD for battlefield control.

[nerulean]

This sort of thing is a problem we found with the beguiler when we played with one: it's an excellent class, but not much of a team player, and it can be annoying to everyone else around if he gets that one-hit-KO against the BBEG, which gives me the tiny inkling your DM might be fudging somewhat.

To limit this, make sure the DM knows exactly what each spell you're trying to cast can do before he rolls, and try to use the spells that effectively end encounters only against grunts. In big, important combats, either chip away at the goons (who should also have worse saves) or try and change the circumstances of the battle (with either illusions or buffs) rather than going in for the instant kill. It may be that your DM is just lucky, or it may be that this will make a lot of difference.:smallwink:

[Kurald Galain]

(1) There's some obscure but relatively cheap item that increases ench/illus save DC, iirc.

(2) Presclass into fatespinner.

(3) Get the 'unsettling enchantment' feat so your spells do stuff even with a succesful save.

(4) If your wis is sufficient, grab 'arcane disciple' to add in some neat spells that don't do will saves.

(5) as one of your extra spells, get the 'shadow magic' one that lets you emulate any evocation spell.

[Kiyona]

(2) Presclass into fatespinner.

(3) Get the 'unsettling enchantment' feat so your spells do stuff even with a succesful save.

Oh, whats a fatespinner? I like the sound of that. ^^ And where can I find it and the feat?

Mm, im think im gonna go with the wipe out grunts tactic. My DM is infamous for giving his bad guys evil saves. Always at least cloak of resistance for instance. I think that is because, as you said, nerulean. One-hit-KOs arent that fun for the rest of the party.

[BardicDuelist]

Just for a thought... Have your DM roll out in the open if he isn't allready doing so. I had a hard time making my character not get hit often for a while and would pump my armor class to really high levels. Eventually I realised that the monsters could only hit on a 20, and were still hitting often. The DM didn't like me "powergaming" to boost my AC, and thus would just have it hit me if the roll was decent. I don't know your DM, but he may be doing the same because he doesn't want you dominating his powerful foes and screwing over his campaing.

[AKA_Bait]

Just for a thought... Have your DM roll out in the open if he isn't allready doing so. I had a hard time making my character not get hit often for a while and would pump my armor class to really high levels. Eventually I realised that the monsters could only hit on a 20, and were still hitting often. The DM didn't like me "powergaming" to boost my AC, and thus would just have it hit me if the roll was decent. I don't know your DM, but he may be doing the same because he doesn't want you dominating his powerful foes and screwing over his campaing.

This sort of thing is sometimes a problem. I have had it happen on more than one occasion that a DM decides they don't like 'save or die/lose/suck' spells well after character creation. It's a huge issue with a class like a beguiler, where the bulk of their spell casting is that way. I'd suggest that you talk to the DM about your character and party effectivness. If they are consistantly fudging rolls (which even if they roll in the open won't solve because as players you don't have access to their notes on the baddie) you may want to ask to make some of the changes suggested here retroactivley because, frankly, it kinda sucks to basically be penalized because the DM decided to change the rules part of the way through the game.

[Kiyona]

I honestly dont think my DM is fudging the rolls. However, I think he is equipping his monsters and characters (with names!!) with a bit to much +will eq. So I want something to overcome it. ^^

[Ramza00]

Veil of Alure in Sandstorm and the Magic item Compedium will give you +1 boost to your save dcs and all charisma based skills.

[AKA_Bait]

Well, like most cases, it's probably best to talk to him about it. Pretty much no matter what you do, since he's the DM, if he wants to mechanically nerf what you are attempting he can. Tell him that you are unhappy with how little you seem to be able to accomplish. Ask him what HE thinks you could do to make the character more effective. From that he'll either a. tell you it's fin as it is and probably stop buffing everything, or b. suggest a fix he won't nerf.

[Kiyona]

Well, like most cases, it's probably best to talk to him about it. Pretty much no matter what you do, since he's the DM, if he wants to mechanically nerf what you are attempting he can. Tell him that you are unhappy with how little you seem to be able to accomplish. Ask him what HE thinks you could do to make the character more effective. From that he'll either a. tell you it's fin as it is and probably stop buffing everything, or b. suggest a fix he won't nerf.

Mm, I think I will have to do just that. I really wanted revenge this morning, but talking to him is probably better. ^^

But I am gonna buy that veil Ramza 00, boosting DC is always good. :smallsmile:

[Nerd-o-rama]

No one's mentioned Spell Focus: Enchantment and/or Illusion yet? I'd consider SF and GSF in at least on school vital to a Beguiler, for exactly this reason. Practically all your spells can be negated by a Will save...but one set of spell focus feats boosts the DC of half of your entire spell list.

[Kiyona]

No one's mentioned Spell Focus: Enchantment and/or Illusion yet? I'd consider SF and GSF in at least on school vital to a Beguiler, for exactly this reason. Practically all your spells can be negated by a Will save...but one set of spell focus feats boosts the DC of half of your entire spell list.

I already have those. ^^ In both schools. But it is a great tip. It really helps together with cloaked casting.

[Arbitrarity]

18 int base at level 12? What'd they build you with, elite array?


Anyways, DC is 19+spell level for illus and enchant with cloaked casting, so up to DC 25.

Mind you, I can boost much higher than that, but it's pretty specific. +4 int item, so... 28 INT is easy, 30 if you want to sacrifice a lot. Middle aged grey elf with base 18, +3 level, +1 age, +2 racial, +4 enhancement. Venerable works better, but -6 to str dex and con hurts.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh yeah, the item I spoke about is the Veil of Allure that Ramza mentioned.

Fatespinner - either complete divine or complete arcane, not sure which. It gives you "luck points" per day that you can use to boost your saving DC, and at higher level you get to invoke a +10 save DC once per day.

The feat Arcane Disciple is from c.divine. It basically adds a priest domain of the deity you worship (you are worshipping a deity, no :smallamused: if not, it's not too late to Repent!) to your spell list, but you don't get the domain's power. And Unsettling Enchantment (and its counterpart, Dazzling Illusion) are c.arcane as well, I think. Or complete something, at any rate.

Oh, and if you want to try a change of tactics - cloaked casting isn't all that useful.



The DM didn't like me "powergaming" to boost my AC, and thus would just have it hit me if the roll was decent.
Yeah, that's pretty unfair. It's ok to fudge the occasional roll out of dramatic necessity, but consistent fudging because you don't like a mechanic is poor form. If the DM didn't want the PCs to have extremely high saves (etc) he shouldn't give them a Cloak of Resistance. Etc.

[Kiyona]

18 int base at level 12? What'd they build you with, elite array?

I just got lucky. ^^ 4d6 remove to lowest one. But I think ive forgotten to add my +3 from level....


Kurald Galain, fatespinner sounds really cool. I think im gonna have to take a look at that the next time I lvl up. ^^