Healer Bard Optimization Question

[Garresh]

Hey all. I just started a Bard in AL and I'm having a blast so far. I started bard and took 1 level in Cleric to amp up my healing. I also have the healer feat at level one due to human variant. Anyways, when I hit Bard 6 I want to grab Aura of Vitality and Revivify. I know Counterspell would probably be better, but I really want to make this guy feel less like a controller and more like a limitless well of healing and luck.

Anyways my question is this. I was originally thinking of going straight to Bard 6 after the cleric dip, but I'm now considering take 1 additional level detour to grab Druid. It will lower my AC slightly due to the metal restriction, but getting Goodberry without wasting a magical secrets makes it really valuable, especially since it gives a power spike right now rather than a spike in a few levels.

If it was that alone I might wait further, but I chose Elemental Evil as my supplement, and I'm thinking that the druid dip will also give me a huge durability spike as well. I lose a bit of AC due to no metal armor, but given O always hang near the back my greatest fear is AoE attacks. Absorb Elements perfectly supplements my kit by allowing me to reliably half AoE elemental damage on top of my already good dex saves. Basically if stuff gets bad I know for a fact I won't drop to splash damage if I dip druid.

My only concern is I only have 14 dex and 12 con, due to suboptimal stat spreads so I could multiclass, and I wanted 12 int for roleplay reasons since he is a curator of knowledge.

So... I've made a lot of suboptimal choices because of character background and roleplay reasons, but I feel like another druid dip fits my background and playstyle, in addition to covering my weaknesses and amplifying my strengths.

What do you guys think?

[Arkhios]

I'd take the 3rd level spells known before taking another detour.

To elaborate, while I do think that Goodberry with Life Cleric's domain feature would be crazy good, access to Additional Magical Secrets is already delayed by one level, and I believe you would regret it at around those levels.

In fact, just ditch Revivify and take Goodberry instead with Additional Magical Secrets.

[JAL_1138]

I'd skip Revivify and hold out for Raise Dead, which you can get normally as a bard without a Secret later on. It's not worth spending a Magical Secret on. Few characters get killed outright in the first place in League in Tier 2; a well-timed Healing Word will nearly always do the trick just as well.

[Garresh]

Good points. I should perhaps offer a bit of context as well. I had a level 3 life cleric before but my party didn't heal me when I dropped so I died. They learned from their mistake, but unfortunately I'm level 2 and we're approaching the end of forge of fury. The party encountered Nightscale and the dragon's breath weapon dropped well over half the party. Since we have people coming and going, a lot of the party is still level 3. I knew a dragon was coming, so although I am unspoiled I've been positioning well behind the party since I was only level 1 when we ran into Nightscale the first time.

If I hit level 3 in bard, I'll still drop on a successful dex save because as we discovered last session, Nightscale's breath hits for about 50 damage. A failed save would kill me outright. Our party has developed a lot more sense and become much more protective of our squishies and healers after my cleric died. Still, if I don't dip Druid at this point I'm afraid I won't survive the next encounter with the dragon. And we're running out of dungeon so I don't expect I'll hit level 4 before the final showdown.

I know its suboptimal, but I guess I'm asking HOW suboptimal is it? If I'm another level behind will iy cripple me, or are bard second level spells and inspiration still pretty good?

Edit: I actually enjoy healing. I'm not doing this because the others are pressuring me or anything. If I wanted to minmax I'd build for control not sustain. Hehe. But with our party having a fairly rotating cast, and many of us within instadeath range on a failed save vs nightscale, I'm seriously worried about going down in that fight. I can inspire everyone to get them more likely to pass their saves, but if someone with healing doesn't stay conscious to get everyone back up next turn I'm feeling like our unoptimized pub group is gonna TPK before we're through.

[Garresh]

Tbh, I've sort of already decided, because of the short term threats that need yo be dealt with so that I can last to tier 2 in the first place. I'm just trying to see if there's any obvious issues I've overlooked.

I'm definitely thinking my second secret spell at bard 6 is gonna change to something else, but given the power of level 1 bard spells like faerie fire and dissonant whispers, again, am I going to be useless as a bard if I delay my progression 2 levels? I've never played a bard before and I confess I have a practical experience void where they are concerned.

[PeteNutButter]

If you read the AL Player's Guide you are freely allowed to change your character before level 5.

Why not just fix your stats? You already need wis and cha, putting a 12 int for RP reasons is admirable, but taking away from the characters already MAD stats with almost zero mechanical benefit. Whenever trying to be good at everything you end up just bad at everything. If you are worried about getting outright killed in AL, having less than a 14 con is the best way to do that.

If you are committed to your stats, I'd advise you to at least stay in bard until level 6 at least for your first magical secrets. I'd avoid druid as it should prevent you from wearing medium [metal] armor, which is what I'd guess you are in currently. If not, you should be.

The funny thing about optimization in 5e is it usually only is needed when fighting things beyond your CR. Most AL mods are not balanced with creatures so far above the party level. The TYP was not your typical AL mod, and as such that dragon is a CR 7 thrown at level 3 and 4 characters. People will die. We run two full tables at my local store, and my table was able to handle it only barely while the other group wiped. Optimization is the only thing that saved us, and will hopefully continue to save us.

[diplomancer]

Also, have you considered swiping Inspiring Leader for the Healer's feat? THP are better for survival in a pitched battle than HP, even if it's slightly less.

[agnos]

Hitting up Druid 1 is honestly pointless. Cleric 1/Bard 6 gives you far more healing than you actually need. It's already good enough to get Aura of Vitality with Life Cleric bonus than to chance losing it due to DM fiat from pushing the limits.

[Garresh]

Okay, good points. However, even with my con raising to 16 I STILL go unconscious to a successful save vs dragon breath and die yo a failed save. The advice of pumping con is good long term, but in the short term none of the advice helps.


That said...

What if I go Druid 1 for the rest of Forge of Fury, then replace it with a level of bard before I leave Tier 1? I get the short term survivability that only Absorb Elements can offer me, and I don't mess up my progression after that? I think that may be my best option at this point actually.

It feels a bit exploitive, but without that absorb elements spell our party is going to get annihilated by Nightscale since we're light on healing and last "fight" he dropped 4 people in one round.

[The_Jette]

If the reason you're doing this is to save yourself from the breath attack of a dragon, maybe you should consider hanging back until the first breath attack has gone off, and then head into combat. Spread your party out so that the dragon can't ever get more than one or two of you at a time, then heal when you have the chance. Healing Word is really good in these situations because of the distance. As a level 2 bard, with a dip of fighter, I managed to help with healing enough that I didn't get killed, although barely, and used my short bow effectively enough for my level. And, that was the Horde of the Dragon Queen. I'm curious what your spread is, though. I took an 8 in Str since I'll be relying on my Dex, but I have 16's in Dex and Cha, and a 14 Con, and still had enough for a 12 in Int. You should be able to get a 16 and two 14's as a Variant Human, and still have the points to get a 12 in Int, if you still want it. It'd look like this:
Str 8
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 16

That's not perfect, but it gets you what you want. Just limit yourself to attacking with Cantrips, when you have a chance and don't have to heal.

[Garresh]

If the reason you're doing this is to save yourself from the breath attack of a dragon, maybe you should consider hanging back until the first breath attack has gone off, and then head into combat. Spread your party out so that the dragon can't ever get more than one or two of you at a time, then heal when you have the chance. Healing Word is really good in these situations because of the distance. As a level 2 bard, with a dip of fighter, I managed to help with healing enough that I didn't get killed, although barely, and used my short bow effectively enough for my level. And, that was the Horde of the Dragon Queen. I'm curious what your spread is, though. I took an 8 in Str since I'll be relying on my Dex, but I have 16's in Dex and Cha, and a 14 Con, and still had enough for a 12 in Int. You should be able to get a 16 and two 14's as a Variant Human, and still have the points to get a 12 in Int, if you still want it. It'd look like this:
Str 8
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 16

That's not perfect, but it gets you what you want. Just limit yourself to attacking with Cantrips, when you have a chance and don't have to heal.

That's how I survived the first attack, but dragons are smart and our party is likely to eat a second breath attack. We actually have a berserker barbarian in this party. That alone should tell you the mindset here. By the time we reach the dragon our average level will be 3.

Anyways my spread is
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 16

[PeteNutButter]

Okay, good points. However, even with my con raising to 16 I STILL go unconscious to a successful save vs dragon breath and die yo a failed save. The advice of pumping con is good long term, but in the short term none of the advice helps.


That said...

What if I go Druid 1 for the rest of Forge of Fury, then replace it with a level of bard before I leave Tier 1? I get the short term survivability that only Absorb Elements can offer me, and I don't mess up my progression after that? I think that may be my best option at this point actually.

It feels a bit exploitive, but without that absorb elements spell our party is going to get annihilated by Nightscale since we're light on healing and last "fight" he dropped 4 people in one round.

The breath weapon is actually 49.5 so halving it you get 24 since you round down. With a 16 con you'd have 27 hit points at 3rd level. That's enough that you live if you make the save on his average roll. I'd really try and not engage the dragon until level 4 which would be 35 hit points. That is well within the range of survival. The dragon would have to roll 70+ to knock you out with the first shot. Provided you make the save you are likely going to live.

Inspiring Leader would be better for the party to try survive. Also if you want to get really gamey Shield Master would make you take no damage if you make the save.

As others have pointed out, make sure you spread out, and don't stand 3 or more in a line. I'd be more concerned about how you'll kill it since it's flight can cause half of most parties to do very low damage.



Anyways my spread is
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 16

To be clear, you are saying changing the stats is off the table for you for RP reasons?

[Garresh]

I'm okay with tweaking them a bit. I want to keep a 12 in int. Maybe drop to a 10. Its certainly tweakable though.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm okay with tweaking them a bit. I want to keep a 12 in int. Maybe drop to a 10. Its certainly tweakable though.

Alas to get a 14 con you'd need to drop int to 9, without forgoing any other stat. You could perhaps drop dex and wear heavy armor, suffering with a 20 feet movement speed, although that isn't optimal.

The only other option would be to take a half feat instead of healer. Resilient Con is a great feat for any caster. Dropping int to 10 should allow you to start with a 14 con and proficiency in the save.

[Citan]

Hey all. I just started a Bard in AL and I'm having a blast so far. I started bard and took 1 level in Cleric to amp up my healing. I also have the healer feat at level one due to human variant. Anyways, when I hit Bard 6 I want to grab Aura of Vitality and Revivify. I know Counterspell would probably be better, but I really want to make this guy feel less like a controller and more like a limitless well of healing and luck.

Anyways my question is this. I was originally thinking of going straight to Bard 6 after the cleric dip, but I'm now considering take 1 additional level detour to grab Druid. It will lower my AC slightly due to the metal restriction, but getting Goodberry without wasting a magical secrets makes it really valuable, especially since it gives a power spike right now rather than a spike in a few levels.

If it was that alone I might wait further, but I chose Elemental Evil as my supplement, and I'm thinking that the druid dip will also give me a huge durability spike as well. I lose a bit of AC due to no metal armor, but given O always hang near the back my greatest fear is AoE attacks. Absorb Elements perfectly supplements my kit by allowing me to reliably half AoE elemental damage on top of my already good dex saves. Basically if stuff gets bad I know for a fact I won't drop to splash damage if I dip druid.

My only concern is I only have 14 dex and 12 con, due to suboptimal stat spreads so I could multiclass, and I wanted 12 int for roleplay reasons since he is a curator of knowledge.

So... I've made a lot of suboptimal choices because of character background and roleplay reasons, but I feel like another druid dip fits my background and playstyle, in addition to covering my weaknesses and amplifying my strengths.

What do you guys think?
Hi!

I'd say it depends on your DM and your goal in dipping.
- If he accepts waiving the metal restriction on the basis that you are just dipping...
- Or you are really interested in at least 5 Druid 1st level spells (Goodberry, Jump, Longstrider, Absorb Elements, Ice Knife, Thunderwave, Fog Cloud, Faerie Fire, Earth Tremor -with nearly a half of them requiring good WIS to be worth it)...
- Or you really want to get Wild Shape as a core part of your character (and play with it for scouting/spying which can be great paired with Bard's Comprehend Languages).
Then first level up Bard at least until level 3 (you get your archetype and 2nd level spells, many of which are extremely helpful to party, also you "lock" the fact that you are a Bard first), then take your Druid dip (so you can rack up on Life Goodberries while it's still a good sparing money trick).

Otherwise, just go straight Lore Bard and pick Goodberry as a Magic Secret.

Don't get the wrong idea, I love the Life Cleric / Druid combo dip.
Especially on a Bard, which is usually fairly lacking in healing/non-concentration buff/direct damage due to limited spell known and spell list.
But unless you had specific tactics in mind that rely on several Druid spells or have another fullcaster that don't multiclass in the party, waiting for higher level spells is costly (you won't feel it now, you will start feeling it from character level 7 onwards).
And except if you have high WIS, only the utility/healing spells of Druid will be really worth preparing, which are very good at low levels but usually losing potent later.

I'm okay with tweaking them a bit. I want to keep a 12 in int. Maybe drop to a 10. Its certainly tweakable though.
IF this is a doable thing, then ask your DM if you can drop STR to 7 to pump INT to 13 and instead consider a dip into Wizard: you get most of good Druid utility (Absorb Elements, Jump, Longstrider) along with other good (Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Find Familiar, Magic Missile). So if you are worried for defense, it's a safer bet: you can still wield medium armor and shield and get some defensive spells to stack on it.

[Sigreid]

Just tossing this out there but if you take the bard 1st level spell Heroism, that gives you charisma modifier temporary hitpoints that refresh every time it's your turn. Or you can cast it on the warrior type so he has a better chance of hanging in there.

Also, as someone said, with inspiring leader you should be able to give your whole group pretty significant temporary hp to start the fight with.

[busterswd]

Another AL wrinkle you may not be aware of: until you hit level 5, you get free Raise Dead from your faction. Level 5 and up, your party can pay 1250 GP for a party member to be raised. I'm surprised you restarted, since your cleric could have been brought back for free (minus the rewards/XP from that particular session).

Int's also one of the weakest stats in this edition. Its main purpose is knowledge skill boosting, but Jack of all Trades does a lot for you in that department, already. I would not hesitate to drop it to 10.


IF this is a doable thing, then ask your DM if you can drop STR to 7 to pump INT to 13

Not AL legal, unfortunately.

[Garresh]

Another AL wrinkle you may not be aware of: until you hit level 5, you get free Raise Dead from your faction. Level 5 and up, your party can pay 1250 GP for a party member to be raised. I'm surprised you restarted, since your cleric could have been brought back for free (minus the rewards/XP from that particular session).

Int's also one of the weakest stats in this edition. Its main purpose is knowledge skill boosting, but Jack of all Trades does a lot for you in that department, already. I would not hesitate to drop it to 10.



Not AL legal, unfortunately.

If I haven't made it abundantly clear, my party is not optimized. Good crowd. Incredibly fun to play with. But my cleric's death was entirely avoidable, and when he died it took us 12 days to return to town, which is outside of the raise dead window.

Anyways from all the input I got I'm going to take a level in druid then STRONGLY consider retraining back to bard after we survive(assuming we survive). Long term I feel people here are correct, but short term it seems that druid is probably my best option.

Also, Wizard is a clever idea, but then I need 13 in wis and int in addition to cha. I actually might consider that after I get bard 6 tbh. But right now I really should probably rush bard 6 like everyone here ie sayijg lol.

[busterswd]

If I haven't made it abundantly clear, my party is not optimized. Good crowd. Incredibly fun to play with. But my cleric's death was entirely avoidable, and when he died it took us 12 days to return to town, which is outside of the raise dead window.

I mean, what's done is done, but the town's 3 days away on foot from the forge, and it's assumed your party gets the option to travel back to town after each session for these sort of contingencies (unless you're literally mid encounter). It's not a matter of optimization; your DM may have missed the travel time in the book.

[Garresh]

It's fine really. Tbh I think I'm going to rebuild him anyways. More and more I'm going over my backstory and I think he might be better as a Wild Sorcerer lol. Sorry to waste a thread. :/