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DruchiiConversion
2007-08-03, 05:42 AM
Note that players in the originally-named "Evil Campaign" should probably keep out. If I'm getting the feeling you guys have been peeking, I'll probably just buff the gods up anyway. ;)




So... I've been running a campaign since level 5-ish which is now running into Epic levels (though fairly low ones) and has so far been about the procurement of scattered pieces of an artifact in an attempt to ressurect a dead god who will bring about the apocalypse - fairly stereotypical 'evil' stuff. By now, the party's very close to being successful, and fairly soon will be fighting the pantheon itself.

The pantheon is typical D&D fare - all of the non-standard groups from Deities and Demigods will not be present for story reasons, so it's just the basic set - minus Vecna.

Now, my title's a little misleading. I'm not actually looking for someone to build a pantheon, that would be far too much effort to ask for. Instead I'm looking for tips as to the methods I should use in order to build these gods. I'd use the Deities and Demigods version, but they feel very shallow to me, I mean what self-respecting god would really be a Fighter20/Barbarian20? When the actual battles take place, ALL divine abilities will be completely nullified - that means no Salient Divine Abilities, no HD gained from Divine Ranks, nothing. However, my players have been pretty much encouraged to powergame - they have all books available, and there are few restrictions (most of which are racial) on what they can be and do. Therefore, I'm looking for my gods to be pretty buff too - but of course, many are fighters, who are simply not as good as the epic casters my party contains.

So how do I make them strong enough while feeling 'godly' at the same time? This party has fought against machine/paladin/demon hybrids with 12 attacks and insane damage before, as well as other monstrosities such as a level 28 Paladin when the party was ECL 12 - all of which they have overcome, with astoundingly few PC deaths. I really don't want the gods themselves to be swept aside in the same fashion, and I'm worried they'll be easy pickings. Certainly, the Deities and Demigods versions would be.

psychoticbarber
2007-08-03, 09:36 AM
I'm worried they'll be easy pickings. Certainly, the Deities and Demigods versions would be.

Normally I rule in my home settings that characters can't kill the Gods, but I don't run into monstrosity characters like the ones you described. It might be fun to go monotheistic (all powerful?) with a number of illegitimate (according to the authorities) cults. I don't have anything hard and fast for you right now, though.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-03, 09:46 AM
without their salient devine abilities, etc. etc. the gods have effectively been whitled down to just high level epic, however bear in mind that any self respecting deity should be kitted out well beyound what WBL says characters of their level are plus surrounded by armies of minions, and we're talking armies of SOLAR minions here.

Getting the Gods (plural deity fights???) depowered shouldn't strip them of alll their other backup stuff/goodies/hellpuppies-of-doom

PaladinFreak
2007-08-03, 09:51 AM
There is absolutely no way that an EL 12 party should be able to take on a Level 28 Paladin. It just doesn't work.

So you want gods stripped of everything that makes them a god to feel godly when you fight them. That seems like a contradiction in terms. As far as I can see, they won't feel godly when you fight them because they AREN'T GODS!

kpenguin
2007-08-03, 09:52 AM
There is absolutely no way that an EL 12 party should be able to take on a Level 28 Paladin. It just doesn't work.


You obviously haven't looked at the cheese people have come up with.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-03, 10:00 AM
For the monster campaign. It took me several months to just get the concepts all down, and I haven't even written any of their history. But, what I did was I came up with six different beings.

They are, quite literally power. For instance, one of them takes the form of wind. Another is a black hole. Each also represents various concepts, which you can guess based on their names (like "The Devourer"). Most are 'negative', but together they form a system which in a somewhat frightening way works.

I'm torn right now between them existing before the idea of names and thus do not have them, or that they are vast and cannot be pronounced. Or maybe they have names that aren't words. Yeah that's nice and strange...

Feel free to use any of this :P Also, the fact that these things are 'evil' is not their primary nature, it is as a secondary affect. They have no interest in the morality of these creatures so tiny and worthless that they can be defined and whose existence can be so easily proven.



Now, if you're not feeling quite so existentially Nietzsche you could base your gods off Norse Mythology. I mean, those guys were pretty dark. You have Odin who hung himself on a tree for nine days. Gave up an eye for wisdom (some versions it's a glass of mead it sounds like). Has power over life and death. Gathering up an army of slain murderers, to fight a hopeless battle.

No reason why Dark Gods can't have admirable qualities :P

Mind you, I also like the idea of Evil Gods being the ones who are trying to save the world. Because who will they get to spread evil otherwise?


If you want cliche. Seven gods of the various sins. They want to destroy the world so they can recreate it and make one that's more suitable for them.


edit: I think I misunderstood. I guess apply as much of that as you can. But if you want to make things more 'godly' I guess high stats seems to be the popular, but underwhelming approach. I think that gods not having to play by the same rules as others is a big one. It also helps if they're strange and alien. Why should a God necessarily be recognizable. Or, the other way to go is to make them so recognizable, but terrible that it's very frightening.

Quietus
2007-08-03, 10:01 AM
One thing to remember is that these ARE, in fact, GODS. if your PC's have been working on resurrecting this dead god for a while now, they'll have gained the attention of the pantheon, who will then have been watching their every move. After all, gods pay attention when people threaten the fabric of existence itself. Even if they don't have their divine salients when the PC's fight them, the deities will be able to at least put aside their differences long enough to lay into these smacktards who want to destroy everything.

Assume that the deities know who among the group poses the most problem, and have them counter that person. You have more epic casters than they do, show as much! Have Boccob grab up Multispell and Automatic Quicken a few times over, then have him ready an action to counter any spells the players try to cast. In the meantime, have another deity work on blinding the casters - what they can't see, they can't target.

In the meantime, let your melee bruisers among your deities rough it up with the fighters, and keep the rogues occupied. Do NOT let them get to your casters.

Essentially? Play the Gods like a party of players. That happen to be level 60.

mostlyharmful
2007-08-03, 10:02 AM
Especially against a Pally, a well played batman should be able to take a level 28 Pal on their own with the right prep work. completely crazy but there you go... unless of corse the Wiz doesn't see him coming and the Pal gets a Diplomacy role. Sneak-make-friends

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-03, 10:03 AM
There is absolutely no way that an EL 12 party should be able to take on a Level 28 Paladin. It just doesn't work.


Reach spell+Maximise Spell+Shivering Touch+ Coup de Grace. Or any of the ray of X(specifically: stupidity). Ability damage for the win.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-03, 10:05 AM
Augh double posted somehow when I meant to edit.

kpenguin
2007-08-03, 10:06 AM
Now, by all divine abilities nullfied, does that include the feats only the gods can have? Because those are pretty scary.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-03, 10:29 AM
I give All the Gods with 20D8 outsider HD (Most Gods) Standard Titan abilities.

I also make the Gods Gestalt.

Except for the random thoughts of a diety (Aspects Races of Dragons) or an Aleax (BoED). An Avatar is the most powerful manifestation a diety can send to the prime without destroying it. The Dieties and Demigods stats are for Planar Aspects of a God mortals normally encounter on the planes not the diety itself. Mortals can not kill dieties without their permission.

I use Divine Sensing to the God's benefit. No finding or killing Gods. All Gods even Demi Gods have Huge personal organizations and Vast resources that span worlds in many campaigns including numerous cults and zealots in their service not to mention alliances with more powerful gods and Hero gods using the Einherjer template.

I use things like Aspects (See Races of Dragon (Brief random thoughts of a God (Level 7 spell to Summon)). Have one pop up in the campaign musing about the PCs.

Don't forget the Ineveitables.

Use the Aleax from BoED basically Super Copies of the PCs when they transgress.

Various source books will allude to a DEMI POWER destroying the campaign world sometime in the future like Apep. D&D doesn't stat for that.

P.S. To my knowledge Divine Rank doesn't give the gods any more HD.

A completely stripped down God should probably be on par with a Titan with levels and the Paragon Template from EPH.

Instead of debuffing the Gods consider buffing up the PCs. Grant them Proxy status with a temporary DR1 demi power status. At the end of the campaign one or all of them can retire as a fledgling demi power.

DruchiiConversion
2007-08-03, 11:07 AM
This has been excellent so far, thanks a million. :)

One thing I forgot to mention is that on the PCs side are all the Evil gods, so it's not all of them versus the PCs. But yeah, the Evil gods will be squaring off with other Good ones in the background anyway.

As for deities sending Avatars or lesser beings similar, they don't actually have a choice. The reason this fight is happening is because every plane other than the very small one the battle takes place on has been destroyed - the deities literally have no place left to run. I quite agree that they wouldn't risk themselves in any other circumstances.

kpenguin
2007-08-03, 11:08 AM
What about the neutral gods? Staying on the sidelines eating popcorn and doing commentary?

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-08-03, 11:14 AM
Make your gods immune to ability damage. Seriously.

DruchiiConversion
2007-08-03, 11:45 AM
What about the neutral gods? Staying on the sidelines eating popcorn and doing commentary?

Hehe, no. Some are on Good's side, some on Evil's side - but being neutral, they're not exactly strong supporters, and it's conceivable that the PCs could diplomacy-fu their way to swaying some. Doubt they will, but anything's possible, eh?

Yakk
2007-08-03, 12:44 PM
First, I'd worry less about the mechanics, and more about making them challenging.

These are gods, even if they are stripped of their near omnipotence.

Leave each with a weakness, and build the fight so that the players will be challenged.

Note that the Gods could have multiple artifacts each.

Or are you tied to the idea of building them using standard D&D character rules?

Thinker
2007-08-03, 01:11 PM
Make all the gods Gestalt:

Class 20 // Outsider 20 and have the gods cast as cleric a cleric of the same level as outsider HD. As outsiders, also grant them all one 7th or higher arcane spell as a spell-like ability usable three-times per day.

Their treasure should be impressive so they should all be equipped with artifacts in every slot. Do not strip them of their Divine feats. With all this they should be pretty formidable.

You may want to consider granting them automatic heavy fortification or immunity to various things as related to their normal portfolio.

AKA_Bait
2007-08-03, 01:13 PM
A few questions:

1. Why are all the evil Gods on their side? If they have been going around destroying plane after plane in an attempt to nullify the universe then most of the EVIL gods would not want to work with them. Most of the evil gods want power, not the destruction of the universe and they very infrequently play well with eachother (see Hextor stealing the War portfolio from Erythnul). Even if they were all to agree, they would be just as likley to turn around and kill the PC's right after the used them to help finish off the good pantheon.

2. Why are you choosing to strip the gods of their divine powers?

Suggestions:

1. SR like no ones business.
2. Artifacts, relics, and numerous feats. Remember, Boccob has one of EVERY magical item in his library. A fighter god with an item that does disjunction might mess up your PC's good and proper.
3. Give them ways to get back lots of hit points, like a gigantic fast healing amount.
4. God's are smart. Have them trick or trap the PC's. Ensure that the terrain is advantageous to the Gods and not the PC's.

DruchiiConversion
2007-08-03, 02:21 PM
A few questions:

1. Why are all the evil Gods on their side? If they have been going around destroying plane after plane in an attempt to nullify the universe then most of the EVIL gods would not want to work with them. Most of the evil gods want power, not the destruction of the universe and they very infrequently play well with eachother (see Hextor stealing the War portfolio from Erythnul). Even if they were all to agree, they would be just as likley to turn around and kill the PC's right after the used them to help finish off the good pantheon.

2. Why are you choosing to strip the gods of their divine powers?

1. The Evil gods are only evil gods because they served the Evil side of the overdeity in millenia past. Since that's the same overdeity the PCs are resurrecting, they're planning on serving again - to not do would be to lose their godhood outright. They may well plan on killing the PCs once they're done, but the way the campaign world works, there's only a limited amount of 'godhood' around, and killing deities gets you their divinity, so if the PCs are even slightly effective they'd be elevated to evil gods themselves - probably not worth the hassle.

2. Because facing opponents with Alter Reality who can simply eradicate you with a thought just isn't fun. That's why I'm asking - it's easy to come up with stats for deities you don't intend to be killed, but ones which feel godly yet are beatable? Much harder.

Yakk
2007-08-03, 04:13 PM
Paladin God:
str 50 (+20)
dex 30 (+10)
con 50 (+20)
wis 50 (+20)
int 30 (+10)
cha 50 (+20)

Outsider 40//Paladin 40
Has the spells/day of a 20th level Cleric.
Class level for all spells considered L 40.

Casts from the complete spell list spontaneously, and knows every Cleric/Paladin spell he can cast. Does not have to take a full round to apply meta-magic to cast spells.

Saves:
R: +67
F: +77
W: +77

HP: 1000
AC: 76
BaB:+30

Paladin Abilities:
Smite Evil: +20 to hit +40 to damage, 9/day (and see below).

Lay on Hands: 800 HP (and see below)

Equipment:
All of his magic items become cursed in various ways if a non-LG being attempts to wield them. Magic items are reduced in potency in the hands of a non-deity to merely artifact levels. If the God willingly lends one of his artifacts to someone else, it does not automatically return for the 3 quick action so long as it is in some living beings possession.

Wields a +15 Holy Power/Axiomatic Power/Disruption (DC 50, cha-based)/Lightning Blast/Ghost Touch Bastard Sword in one hand
Simple: +65 1d10+9d6+35 damage vs chaotic evil, 19x2 crits (including bonus dice).
Full: +65/+60/+55/+50 1d10+9d6+35 damage vs chaotic evil, 19x2 crits (including bonus dice).

Uses a +15 Tower Shield Exceptional Infinite Deflection/Universal Energy Immunity (100 resist if penetrates immunity)/Ghost Touch/Force* in the other.

Mithril Full Plate +15 of Negating / DR 30/- / SR 50/+10 Natural Armor/+10 Dodge/Ghost Touch/Force*

Cloak of Resistance +15/Fast Healing 100/Swiftness(see Boots)/Haste/Status Effect Immunity*

Force*: Protects against touch attacks.
Status Effect Immunity*: As Freedom, but blocks all supernatural status effects as well.

He wields the Bastard Sword as a 1 handed weapon, and the Tower Shield as a heavy shield.

Special Godlike Abilities:
Immune to any and all stat boosts and drain/damage effects.

Has 5 swift actions per round.

He can consume swift actions for a number of purposes:
1 swift action: Cast a standard action paladin spell.
2 swift actions: Cast a standard action cleric spell.
1 swift action: Lay on Hands someone else, range 50'

1 swift action: Issue Challenge. See below.

2 swift actions: +20 to-hit on next attack. Stacks with itself.
1 swift action: Oppose any to-hit roll with a parry roll.
2 swift actions: Disrupt a any spell that has some effect within 5' of the god. Roll a melee attack vs a dispell-based caster level check of the caster.

X swift actions: Regain a level X Paladin Spell.
X swift actions: Add a level X meta-magic effect to a spell.
1 swift action: Regain a use of Smite Evil.
2 swift actions: Regain a use of Turning.

In addition, there are some swift actions that can only be done on the Paladin God's turn:
X quick actions: Regain a level X Cleric Spell. Can be spread over two rounds.
2 quick actions: Make a single full-BaB melee attack.
2 quick actions: Cast a full round paladin spell.
3 quick actions: Cast a full round cleric spell.
3 quick actions: Regain full Lay on Hands.
3 quick action: Return all standard equipment, fully repaired and equipped, to the God.

Challenge:
The "must" and "ifs" are determined by reality itself (ie, DM fiat). Teleport characters around, or have abilities simply not work.

When the God issues a challenge, one opponent within 200' may answer the challenge. During a challenge, the each challenger must move at least 5' closer to the other every round until they are within 5' from each other, and neither may move away from the other.

If both cease to attempt to defeat the other, the effect fails.

No spells, attacks or effects from anyone other than the two duelists can effect either party. The God may not damage or heal/buff/etc any other party, other than in a direct attempt to reach the challenged being.

A challenger can be considered unworthy. This lets them attack the Paladin regardless of the Paladin's duel status, and they do double damage on the Paladin, and the Paladin does half damage to them. As a matter of Honor, if one of the best champions of the opponents does answer the challenge, the Paladin will consider them worthy.

If the Paladin is not answered by a worthy challenger, the Paladin becomes immune to all spells and effects from all sources, until someone worthy does answer the Paladin's challenge. (Note that the unworthy beings who answer the Paladin's challenge are still able to damage the Paladin).

The Paladin and the Challenger know what direction the other is in and who each other are.

Both parties in a Challenge are utterly immune to HP increasing effects, be it healing or any other source.

The Paladin can end a challenge at will. Challenges also end with either party is defeated. The Paladin cannot issue a new challenge for 1 round after the last challenge ended, unless the Challenger yielded.

A member of the fight can yield using a full-round action that does not provoke an AoO. The yielded party can never harm or attempt an action that would otherwise harm the other party, or any ally of the other party within 50' of the other party, for as long as the other party lives. Note this does not apply the other way. This is enforced by Reality (aka, DM fiat).

After a yield, the Paladin God can issue another challenge immediately.

...

That does not have "you are instantly dead", but it is of a rather gross power level. I think that is more than enough to create a very scary Diety, yet one that can be killed.

His weakest point is the moment round between challenges, when you can gang up on him.

Epic Magic will still beat him, sadly. @_@

Edit: fixed some bugs

Falrin
2007-08-03, 04:31 PM
If I'm correct (it might be an other abbility) the bigger gods have alter reality. If I recall correct they can cast any spell they like with it. And aply any Metamagic Feat they Like with it.

Now take, lets say, the small feat persistant spell and cry.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 04:48 PM
Paladin God:


Epic Magic will still beat him, sadly. @_@

Hmmm... *thinks carefully*. I might be able to jack my save DC's through the roof so that I can make him fail a fort save. Except you screwed up his saves, which are all +77, except ref, which is +67.

Let's see. So, we get "I kill it with my brains", jack the DC up to 97, etc. Get spell slots from allies. Lesee.

3 allies, so -57. Contingent, +25. -112 for time, +25 base. +60 to DC, +10 on SR (in conjunction with reduce SR, and assay SR, w/e that take 10 thing was). 20d6 backlash.

So, I can slay one god every 46 days. Maybe get an item of soulfire, and immunity to transmutation (or whatever it was).

:smallbiggrin:

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-03, 06:51 PM
Hmmm... *thinks carefully*. I might be able to jack my save DC's through the roof so that I can make him fail a fort save. Except you screwed up his saves, which are all +77, except ref, which is +67.

Let's see. So, we get "I kill it with my brains", jack the DC up to 97, etc. Get spell slots from allies. Lesee.

3 allies, so -57. Contingent, +25. -112 for time, +25 base. +60 to DC, +10 on SR (in conjunction with reduce SR, and assay SR, w/e that take 10 thing was). 20d6 backlash.

So, I can slay one god every 46 days. Maybe get an item of soulfire, and immunity to transmutation (or whatever it was).

:smallbiggrin:

No not unless there is no cause and effect in your games.

If for some reason your PC was not on the Divine Radar before killing a God.

After killing a God your PC would receive a lot of Godly attention particularly if you planning to do it again in the future (like 45 more days) unless the first time was for something like preventing the first dead God from destroying the PC's homeworld and all the people on it who also worship other Gods I believe in most campaigns your PC would be destroyed by the Gods.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 06:58 PM
This only applies in epic games where deities specifically don't get to use SDA's on me. Unless I do something similar with manifesting, and take 6 levels of slayer.


After reaching 6th level, a slayer is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location. This ability protects against information gathering by clairsentience powers or effects that reveal location.

The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the slayer’s location (however, metafaculty can pierce this protective barrier). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area a slayer is in, the effect works, but the slayer simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing or scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at a slayer do not work. This ability is active as long as the slayer is psionically focused.

It's designed specifically to take down the posted "god" really. Furthermore, there are ways of taking out gods. It's part of the design of giving stats.

Godly attention? Well, if we cheese things out (similar to epic spellcasting), we can use a Planar Shepard with the far realm using the planar bubble. Instantaneous casting time/preparation.

Or not. Clearly, I need to read more carefully, seeing as gods are immune to death effects. Hmmm. We need to use a different epic seed.

Yakk
2007-08-03, 07:02 PM
2 swift actions: Disrupt any spell that has some effect within 5' of the god. Roll a melee attack vs a caster level check of the caster.

He parries your spell using 2 swift actions, as he is within 5' of himself, and your spell has some effect on him.

That's a good 40% of his active defense, not bad -- 3 casts of that in the same round can kill him during the round between challenges.

You also need to boost your caster level up far enough past his to-hit chance. I'd consider this a dispel type effect.

If he has all 5 swift actions up, he can burn 3 of them for +60 to his attack roll, then 2 to parry it. So that's +65+60 = a dispel check at +125.

If you are L 30, you need another +95 to your dispel check to get through that reliably, or another +190.

You can eat up 88 of that with a longer casting time, leaving you with +102.

Burn 10,200 XP, and that does it.

See! I told you epic spell casting could kill him.


Or not. Clearly, I need to read more carefully, seeing as gods are immune to death effects.

In this case, the innate "god" abilities have been stripped from the god, and this is what is left. But his cloak makes him immune to all status effects in any case.

My goal was to create a being without "I win" buttons that would make an epic party of cheese monkeys quake in their boots.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 07:15 PM
Nope, immune to death effects (due to being a god), all energy types, all ranged attacks, all non-cheesed melee attacks, status effects, etc.

In fact, I'm not sure how to kill that thing, though I can probably look through enough epic magic to take it down.

I misread the parry thing, thought it was "cast within", etc.

So, lesee what we can do here.

Spamming contingent "destroy" effects might work, using a rapid prog MT trick (i.e. illumian wizard/druid/Arcane heirophant/mystic theurge, which can get 6 epic spells/day at level 21).

So, maximum DC mitigation is -277 without XP burn. 25 for contingent for all, so -252. What can we do with this? Well, we can make spells which are 100d20 damage, for example (with +26 on penetrating SR). Spam 6 of those, that might work, though save for 1/2, with a low DC.

Any opinions on CR?

Incidentally, how many divine levels?
Warning: text of god immunities/resistances.
Immunities
Deities have the following immunities. Individual deities may have more immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank.

Transmutation
A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself.

Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage
A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.

Mind-Affecting Effects
A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Energy Immunity
Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to electricity, cold, and acid, even if the attacker is a deity of higher divine rank. Some deities have additional energy immunities.

Deities of rank 1 or higher are immune to disease and poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, and death effects, and disintegration.

Deities of rank 6 or higher are immune to effects that imprison or banish them. Such effects include banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul, and turning and rebuking.

Deity Damage Reduction Divine Rank Damage Reduction
Quasi-deity (0) 10/epic
Demigod (1-5) 15/epic
Lesser deity (11-15) 20/epic
Intermediate deity (11-15) 25/epic
Greater deity (16-20) 30/epic
Damage Reduction
A deity has damage reduction as shown on the table.

If the deity also has damage reduction from another source this damage reduction does not stack with the damage reduction granted by divine ranks. Instead, the deity gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation. Whenever a deity has a second kind of damage reduction that might apply to an attack, that damage reduction is listed in parentheses after the damage reduction entry in the deity’s statistics block.

Resistances
All deities have at least the following resistances. Individual deities may have additional resistances.

Energy Resistance
A deity has fire resistance of 5 + its divine rank.

Spell Resistance
A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.



EDIT: Ah, I see. So instead of godly abilities, he has many of those imbued into a cloak and various items. Good, because maximising all rolls is mean :P. Instant death is good, isn't it :smallwink:

Hmm. That god, on its own, is sufficiently deadly to qualify as something to make all but spellcasters shake in terror. I can't see any sort of low epic party defeating it in a manner it is supposed to be defeated (direct assault), or somesuch. It's nearly invincible without super cheese, like far realm based planar shepards (infinite rounds for every round the enemy gets, while affecting them? Cool!)

HidaTsuzua
2007-08-03, 07:17 PM
It might be worthwhile to allow the gods some of their divine powers. Just enough so that they have unique powers related to their portfolio. The example paladin's god duel power is a good example. One way I've always found to good for spicing up battle is the battlefield.

For example, the Sun God might be able to still access the Divine Fire of the Sun. Every turn X number of squares heat up. The next turn, they burn with the power of the Sun and being in the square sucks (for example fort save vs death and successful save deals 40d6 damage). However the squares won't burn out. So slowly but surely the battlefield will heat up leading to planning and tactical maneuvering. This is assuming that this won't be a one turn wonder battle (which can become a major issue in D&D).

Artifacts never hurt either.

Yakk
2007-08-03, 07:30 PM
I wasn't using D&D "build a god" mechanics.

I started with 50/30 stats, 40//40 level, and the idea of giving him many actions per turn, and the Challenge idea.

The gear is just beefed up epic level gear. I liked the idea of the gear being important, and that magic would just splash off him -- so his gear is insanely defensive and good at blocking magical attacks.

The image was a being in full knight armor fighting enemy champion after champion of the enemy host.

He might not be beatable 1-1: he isn't intended to be.

He challenges -- and defeats one of your characters (or, ideally, one of your Mooks). You might get lucky and do some damage to him -- he can't heal himself while dueling, remember.

You now have a single round to take him out before he can challenge-turtle again. He can only parry 5 physical or 2 magical attacks if he has full swift actions. Just throw high-power effects at him, and hope enough gets through.

He'll then challenge-turtle, and he can't heal himself -- but he can only take out a single target. Repeat until you beat him or run out of mooks/resources. Summoning spells are advised. :)

...

He is hittable in melee by an epic melee character I think. And he can't heal up inside duels. But in a single round and 4 swift actions he can:
800 HP LoH, 100 HP fast healing, 300 HP 2x heal spells.
bringing him back to full HP and leaving him a swift action to challenge a duel.

Having no swift actions at the start of a duel is, however, dangerous.

Still, we basically need to kill him in a single round: he can heal himself completely in a single round if he burns a few actions during his duels.

A swarm of gimplings aiming for 1/20 chance to hit and able to do more than 30 damage per hit might help... but might not. That's a pretty huge swarm needed.

Looking at the D&D rules, a Paladin paragon god would be somewhere in the 12 to 17 range. Let's go with 15..

When Divine abilities are up, the Paladin would get:
+15 Divine AC
+20 Deflection AC
+18 Natural Armor (over what his armor grants)
+15 to all saves
Divine Aura: DC 45 or suck
Spell Level+45 DC spell-like abilities (all cleric/paladin spells)
60' movement speed
All rolls are automatically maximized.

Oh yes, and as a Paladin, this God needs a Mount. Probably the God of Horses.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 07:33 PM
Doh. Forgot you could spam "unseen servant" etc at him. Of course, essentially no one has a hope in hell of knowing that before hand without mad divination skillz, it gets slightly more difficult.

Yakk
2007-08-03, 08:02 PM
Doh. Forgot you could spam "unseen servant" etc at him. Of course, essentially no one has a hope in hell of knowing that before hand without mad divination skillz, it gets slightly more difficult.

I'm thinking of a "worthy opponent" clause. Leave it nebulous, to get rid of that cheese.

Something like the Paladin can designate you as unworthy, which gives you the ability to attack the Paladin even when the Paladin is in a duel for the next hour, and the Paladin cannot attack back while in a duel, but still leaves the opposing champion question open.

Then if you throw mooks at him, he considers them unworthy. You'd have to throw strong mooks at him.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 08:07 PM
Hmmm. Sounds tricky. Particularly since "Strong mooks" are rarely summonable with ease (except a lot of prep time), with the exception of the infinite solar horde of doom! or somesuch.

Fighting a lot of beings like that would be nigh-impossible without incredible divination abilities. My party doesn't carry around strong mooks, unless they have epic leadership (:smallwink: )

Yakk
2007-08-03, 08:27 PM
The idea is you have two armies of gods on each side.

So it isn't the PCs vs 15 Gods -- it is the PCs + 15 Gods vs 15 Gods.

The PCs should be ganging up on single Gods, possibly with a God on their side.

And you can tone down Mr Paladin a bit. :) I was aiming for a single God that could give a max-epic party a serious run for their money, and probably beat them. That is why he has a pile of actions and defensive abilities -- a single mortal is in serious trouble against this God. He is, after all, a God -- in this case, this is the power level that your party is aspiring to.

If you want to use it as-is, you can use this God as one of the Gods who was paranoid and imbued lots of his divine abilities into his equipment.

Take away that gear, and he's not that tough. Still a bad-ass, but you can at least death-spell him! And you can do power-attack cheese instead of eking out every inch of +attack to hit him.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-03, 08:37 PM
Rargh, me is uber charger. 1 round Kill is easy.

Really :smalltongue:. Take, for example, the quadruple wielding thri-kreen on a flying mount. Leap/shock/spirited/reckless/dive/Supreme power attack charges get something like 16x return on AC to damage, with 16 attacks. :smalleek:

Base x1, x2 for supreme, x2 for leap (the way supreme power attack is written, these multiply), so x4, dive, x2, spirited charge with a lance x3 so x4. (((4xBAB)+weapon damage+various+1/2 str mod)*4)*16. :smalleek:

Note: Requires barbarian dip (with Complete champion cheese), 10 levels of FB, heavy feat investment, and a flying mount. Note that mistakes are annoying :/.

Wow, actually, that's really good. Now, hitting could be a problem.

Belteshazzar
2007-08-03, 09:05 PM
Funny but I don't actually use 'Deity ranks' at all.

Unique abilites: yes

Unlimited Divine Casting : yes, depends on how much spiritual 'pull' the deity has

Infallible Rolls: no

Truly Immortal: only one, but he doesn't count

Crazy Domain Knowledge: no my deities are much more localized

Expendable Avatars: Nope, they are where they are... Most of them anyway

Divine Families, Divine Hosts, Clerics, and Worshipers to call on in time of need: Oh yeah!

ZeroNumerous
2007-08-03, 11:27 PM
My suggestion is simple: Don't forget that high-end gods(Boccob comes to mind) have mental scores in the 50s. If Boccob knows the players exist(and he will), then he will have prepared for their every ability. He'd be the ultimate Batman, capable of countering the PC's every single move, and still having nine-ways to flee incase the battle goes against him.

Further: Don't forget that every single Deity can cast any divine spell he has domain access to as a Supernatural ability. At will. Ignoring any sort of material component or XP cost. Gate in a few Titans? Why yes, yes I think I will.

Yakk
2007-08-04, 03:28 PM
Gate in a few Titans? Why yes, yes I think I will.

Gate them in from where? All of planar reality has been reduced to one small plane.

:)

DruchiiConversion
2007-08-04, 03:49 PM
Gate them in from where? All of planar reality has been reduced to one small plane.

:)

Indeed, that was part of the reason. :)


As for Mr. Paladin-god... I *love* him. Really, that is exactly the sort of 'massive-power-but-not-'I-kill-you-with-a-thought'' beast I was looking for, thanks. Reckon he'd be scarier mounted on Bahamut? :smalltongue:

Belteshazzar
2007-08-05, 12:02 AM
Indeed, that was part of the reason. :)


As for Mr. Paladin-god... I *love* him. Really, that is exactly the sort of 'massive-power-but-not-'I-kill-you-with-a-thought'' beast I was looking for, thanks. Reckon he'd be scarier mounted on Bahamut? :smalltongue:

Name him Gilgamesh. Then give him a truely massive sword and then mount him on Bahamut.

Just so you know Gilgamesh was the original Cloud Strife, with a his own legends in ancient Sumeria. He went all agnsty after his best 'friend' (their relationship was questionable) and became Epic through a Hero's Quest to learn the meaning of life or somethin like that.

Yakk
2007-08-05, 10:33 PM
DruchiiConversion, what are your good and evil gods?

Even simple short thematic descriptions would help.

Golthur
2007-08-05, 11:10 PM
1. The Evil gods are only evil gods because they served the Evil side of the overdeity in millenia past. Since that's the same overdeity the PCs are resurrecting, they're planning on serving again - to not do would be to lose their godhood outright. They may well plan on killing the PCs once they're done, but the way the campaign world works, there's only a limited amount of 'godhood' around, and killing deities gets you their divinity, so if the PCs are even slightly effective they'd be elevated to evil gods themselves - probably not worth the hassle.
Why do all the evil gods have to go along with this "serve the resurrected overdiety" plan? Some of them might not want to become servants again, and would rather stay the sovereigns that they are.

The best way they can do this, of course, is to make sure that the resurrection doesn't happen by stopping those pesky PCs. :wink:

DruchiiConversion
2007-08-06, 01:21 AM
DruchiiConversion, what are your good and evil gods?

Even simple short thematic descriptions would help.

The typical D&D fare:

GOOD: Ao, Bahamut, Corellon Larethian, Ehlonna, Garl Glittergold, Heironeous, Kord, Moradin, Pelor, Yondalla.
NEUTRAL-GOOD: Boccob, Fharlanghn, St. Cuthbert
NEUTRAL-EVIL: Olidammara, Wee Jas, Obad-Hai
EVIL: Queen of Destruction, Erythnul, Gruumsh, Hextor, Kurtulmak, Lolth, Nerull, Tiamat

That's 12 gods versus 10. The PCs don't have to make up 2 gods' worth of strength, though, since Evil also has stronger 'grunt' troops than Good, in the form of their additional celebrities like Asmodeus, and similar. Nonetheless, the PCs are expected to be very influencial in this battle - otherwise there's just no point them being PCs, after all, and they won't be receiving much support as a party against individual gods.

Yakk
2007-08-06, 11:11 AM
At least one evil god should turn. It is cliche for a reason.

A big knock-down brawl doesn't work very well -- just the raw number of dice being thrown around. You need a way to simplify the combat.

Prometheus
2007-08-06, 11:22 AM
Think of those multi-stage bosses you fight in video games. Change the rules a couple of times. The Gods could change the environment so that the system works differently, enough that the players can still operate but it puts them at a disadvantage. For example Gravity, Magic, rule variants, extraplanar effects and the like, double all damage in a certain area, etc. The terrain should be epic too.