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OOTS_Rules.
2007-08-03, 06:43 AM
What exactly is Gestalt? I have heard that it is DND, except you level up two classes at the same time. However, I have also heard that the two classes are separated into primary and secondary. Can somebody give me information?

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-03, 06:46 AM
This gets asked about once every three weeks. There's a search function on this forum, you know.

The SRD is your friend. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)

YPU
2007-08-03, 06:50 AM
A quick synopsis, you choice two classes instead of one, you get the better saves and BaB, the highest number of skills and the class skill lists combine, also you get all the class abilities of both classes.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-08-03, 06:55 AM
Sorry. Also, thanks for the link.

YPU: Thanks for the explanation

Kyace
2007-08-04, 12:25 AM
What exactly is Gestalt? I have heard that it is DND, except you level up two classes at the same time. However, I have also heard that the two classes are separated into primary and secondary. Can somebody give me information?
When people bring up gestalt on these boards, the first advice they are usually given is don't try to be both sides of the build at once. You end up sharing the GP (in invested equipment), skill points, where you place your stats, feats and even what you use your actions in battle on, on both sides of the build, so you can either be an average side A and an average side B or a good side A and a poor side B. Whichever side you favor would be your primary side. You don't have to favor one side by the rules, just generally the build will tend to be stronger if you do.

TheOOB
2007-08-04, 01:07 AM
Generally when you gestalt one class needs to either support the other class, or cover the other classes weaknesses. Preferably both. For example a sorcerer/wizard suffers from horrible MAD, and abilities that don't work well together, while a sorcerer/paladin has great CHA synergy, and the toughness and combat ability of the paladins covers the physical weakness of the sorc.

An important thing to note is that while gestalt characters are more powerful then normal characters, and have to fight tougher monsters, they actually don't gain more powerful abilities any faster then normal characters. This means a few things: Enemies have a higher AC so characters without a full BAB should stay away from combat, enemies do more damage so characters without at least d10 hp and a good AC should also stay away from combat (d4 and d6 are usually suicide). Save DCs of enemies are higher, only one good save is suicide, aim for three good saves if possible, and high level spells are more important then ever, losing a caster level could kill your character.

Zincorium
2007-08-04, 01:47 AM
Gestalt is fairly good at helping to create very versatile characters, which is good on its own but almost vital in a group with very few players (1-3).


There are a few built in balancing factors, though, to keep it from being unplayably overpowered. The first is that WBL doesn't go out the window, a fighter//rogue still has to spend his cash wisely in order to function at full strength. The second is that a lot of restrictions, like being unable to cast in armor, don't go away and aren't all that well compensated for without extensive Prc-ing.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-04, 11:28 AM
A couple of things to be wary of with Gestalt....

For Players:
1) Pick a primary and supporting class; don't try to fill both roles.
The Paladin//Sorcerer has a problem - needs Strength for fighting, Con for HP, Wis for Paladin spellcasting, and Charisma for Sorcerer spellcasting. Trying to be both a full Paladin and a full Sorcerer is going to hurt. The Sorcerer//paladin, on the other hand, is a Sorcerer with a better HD, attack bonus, and Divine Grace (plus a mount).

2) Don't take classes with abilities that get in each other's way.
A Wizard is armorless; a Fighter can wear heavy armor to get a really good AC. A Fighter//Wizard either can't wear heavy armor or can't cast spells effectively due to Arcane Spell Failure. A Wizard//Monk, on the other hand, can't wear armor on both sides, so it doesn't matter, while a Fighter//Cleric has no problems at all with heavy armor.

3) Look for class abilities that compliment each other.
A Druid can't make much use of decent armor until mid-high levels (as the Wild armor property is a +3 equivalent, which means armor usable in Wild Shape cost a minimum of 16,000 gp, and most the armors a Druid can use aren't very good), due to Wildshape and the materials restriction. A Monk can't use armor anyway, and is designed around it (but has a case of Multiple Attribute Dependency (MAD) right out of the box). A Monk//druid or a Druid//monk gets interesting - both classes are Wisdom based, the monk's AC and speed boost continue to apply in wild shape, and Wild Shape itself greatly reduces the Monk's case of MAD (as Wild Shape grants the physical stats of the form). The two complement each other well. If you go non-core, stat out a Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds feat) Druid//Unarmed Variant Sword Sage (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords class) in a good Wild Shape sometime; you need... Con and Wis first and naturally, strength and Dex secondarily and only through the enhancements from VoP. Wis to AC, keep all Vow goodies in Wild Shape (as they are Supernatural in nature, and Wild Shape is as Alternate Form with some caveats), lots of natural armor from Wild Shape, Full Spellcasting to cover the inflexible aspects of the Vow of Poverty (just convince your DM that the Holly and Mistletoe a Druid requires is acceptable with the Vow of Poverty - shouldn't be too hard, it's got a price line of "-" which is usually read as "free").

4) Look for classes without overlap.
Sure, the spell load of a Sorcerer//Wizard looks great on paper, but it doesn't work out so hot in practice. Both have the same spell list, both have a d4 HD, both have the same single good save, both get 2 skill points per level, they have mostly the same skills, and you still only get the one action per round - you won't usually go through your spells fast enough for the number of them to matter. The Sorcerer//monk or Wizard//monk, on the other hand, gets a better HD, more skill points per level, all good saves, and 3/4ths BAB (plus Monk goodies).

5) Look for Active/Passive class combinations.
You basically only get the one action per round. If you have cool active abilities on both sides (this mostly hits dual-casters; the Wizard//Cleric, Wizard//Druid, Sorcerer//Wizard, and so on), you effectively only get to use one side each round. Generally, you want a side with good active abilities (be that Fighting, Casting, or whatever) and a side with good passive abilities (HP, saves, defensive specials, and so on).

6) Be aware of Power Curves, and pick a pairing that won't be left behind at any level.
At high levels, Full Casters (Core: Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid) have the upper hand. At low levels, Primary Combatants (Core: Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, and to a lesser extent, the Ranger) have the upper hand. Sneaks (Core: Rogue, Bard, and to a lesser extent, the Ranger) are about average at all levels. A Paladin//sorcerer (who migrates to Sorcerer//paladin) does very well at low-levels with magic-supported fighting (Still Spell and long-running personal buffs) and very well at high levels (as a Full Caster with really good saves and decent HD, plus healing). The Fighter//Barbarian will be twiddling his thumbs at 20th, while the Cleric//Sorcerer will be tapping his fingers at 1st.

7) Avoid Multiple Attribute Dependency like the plague it is.
Dual casters have a problem: They focus on two primary casting stats. This eats into their save DC's. The Rogue//Fighter's got a problem: needs lots of Dex for rogueishness, lots of strength for fighteryness - in addition to Con for HP and Wis for Will saves.

For DM's
1) Gestalt characters usually have slightly better endurance (saves and HP; also casters usually have more spells to work with) and flexibility (they can do extra stuff), but not all that much more powerful (they still only get their normal allotment of actions, gain class abilities at the normal progression, and so on). The party of fourth level gestalt characters is NOT up to CR 8 encounters four times per day. CR 5 for non-save monsters (melee brutes, mostly), CR 6 for save-based monsters (be that by spells, spell like abilities, supernatural, or Ex abilities). +1 CR higher than a normal campaign for things that are based on "no-save" abilities, +2 CR higher than than a normal campaign for things that are based on "save-or" abilities. However, see point (2) below.

2) Not all gestalt combinations are equal (see player section for examples and reasons). Know your group's optimization level. If you're not sure, test the waters (so to speak - although literally with water encounters are fine) with encounters of various types and CR's, to get a feel for your group's effectiveness.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-04, 12:18 PM
I never got that bit about Gestalt characters having higher saves. A Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Monk 2/Ranger 2 has base saves of Fort 9/Ref 9/Will 3, while a Fighter 4/Rogue 4//Monk 4/Ranger 4 has base saves of Fort 6/Ref 6/Will 5. The Gestalt character is slightly more well-rounded, but his best saves are actually *lower*.

Of course, single-classed spellcasters get much better saves in Gestalt by trading bad progressions for good ones, but when everyone loses the ability to get free +2s by multiclassing, monsters with save-based abilities don't actually become that much easier.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-04, 12:38 PM
I never got that bit about Gestalt characters having higher saves. A Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Monk 2/Ranger 2 has base saves of Fort 9/Ref 9/Will 3, while a Fighter 4/Rogue 4//Monk 4/Ranger 4 has base saves of Fort 8/Ref 8/Will 5. The Gestalt character is slightly more well-rounded, but his best saves are actually *lower*.
That's only due to save-stacking. Compare the Fighter-20 (+12/+6/+6) to the Fighter-20//Bard-20 (+12/+12/+12).

Or, if we want to do that the save-stacking way, compare to a Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Monk 2/Ranger 2//Wizard-8; to the Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Monk 2/Ranger 2 even with your accounting for saves, it becomes +9/+9/+6 for Gestalt vs. Fort 9/Ref 9/Will 3 for the mad multi-classer.

Basically, for just about any single-line class combination, I can give it better saves by applying Gestalt to exactly that line with something else on the other side (exceptions being, of course, for things that have perfect saves all around - the Monk-1/Favored Soul-1, for example; +4/+4/+4 at level 2, while the Monk-1/Favored Soul-1//X-2 will still only have +4/+4/+4 at level 2, regardless of what X is).

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-05, 12:45 AM
Actually, the Monk 1/Soul1//XX 2 will only have +3/+3/+3 at level 2. Remember, for Gestalt, you take the best progression, not the best value. That means you can only get a +2 one single time per save.

And I already noted that single-classed casters get huge save benefits in Gestalt, but martial characters (who multiclass far more than casters) typically don't gain much benefit, and can actually get hosed:

Or, if we want to do that the save-stacking way, compare to a Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Monk 2/Ranger 2//Wizard-8; to the Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Monk 2/Ranger 2 even with your accounting for saves, it becomes +9/+9/+6 for Gestalt vs. Fort 9/Ref 9/Will 3 for the mad multi-classer.
That's wrong. Like I said, you only get the best progression. Your gestalt character has 6 levels of good Fort, 6 of good Ref, and 8 of good Will (and 2 each of bad Fort and Ref, which give nothing). That makes for total saves of +5/+5/+6, which is a far cry from +9/+9/+3.

edit: btw, my math was wrong in the post you quoted. Apologies for any confusion that may have caused.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-08-05, 09:32 AM
So, here are some of the things I thought of. . .

Monk (Primary) / Druid (Support)

Paladin (Primary) / Fighter (Support)

Cleric (Primary) / Cleric (Support)

Unique Case: Split personality Ranger / Dragon Shaman (When the human personality is in control, he is full ranger, when the dragon's soul fragment is in control, he is a dragon shaman, and when the two personalities are in dispute, he is gestalt. Will tell a backstory upon request)

Would these classes work? (Please do not tell me to use ToB or stop using Dragon Shamans. Even if it is unoptimized, it is still fun to play as these classes)

purplearcanist
2007-08-05, 10:30 AM
So, here are some of the things I thought of. . .

Monk (Primary) / Druid (Support)

Paladin (Primary) / Fighter (Support)

Cleric (Primary) / Cleric (Support)

Unique Case: Split personality Ranger / Dragon Shaman (When the human personality is in control, he is full ranger, when the dragon's soul fragment is in control, he is a dragon shaman, and when the two personalities are in dispute, he is gestalt. Will tell a backstory upon request)

Would these classes work? (Please do not tell me to use ToB or stop using Dragon Shamans. Even if it is unoptimized, it is still fun to play as these classes)

Alright, I can't comment on a Ranger / Dragon Shaman. (Don't know what a dragon shaman is.)

OK - Monk/Druid complement each other pretty well (see the previous post).

A Paladin/Fighter is a pretty weak gestalt, as both of them are basically fighting classes. All that you're basically getting is a paladin with fighter bonus feats, which is weak compared to other gestalts.

Sorry, you can't use two of the same classes at any level of your gestalt.

Also, look at the prestiege class, as you can use them in gestalt, and you can make a powerful one if you tailor it right.

OOTS_Rules.
2007-08-05, 11:04 AM
Oops, I meant Wizard/Cleric, the Steroid Theruge.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-05, 11:08 AM
Actually, the Monk 1/Soul1//XX 2 will only have +3/+3/+3 at level 2. Remember, for Gestalt, you take the best progression, not the best value. That means you can only get a +2 one single time per save.

And I already noted that single-classed casters get huge save benefits in Gestalt, but martial characters (who multiclass far more than casters) typically don't gain much benefit, and can actually get hosed:

That's wrong. Like I said, you only get the best progression. Your gestalt character has 6 levels of good Fort, 6 of good Ref, and 8 of good Will (and 2 each of bad Fort and Ref, which give nothing). That makes for total saves of +5/+5/+6, which is a far cry from +9/+9/+3.

edit: btw, my math was wrong in the post you quoted. Apologies for any confusion that may have caused.

You get the best progression for that level - The Fighter-1/Ranger-1//Monk-1/Bard-1 gets +2/+2/+2 at 1st and +2/+2/+2 at 2nd, for +4/+4/+4.

While the Gestalt rules suggest you use fractional BAB and Fractional saves, they don't require it (hence the occasional question about the BAB on a Fighter-1/Sorcerer X-1//Wizard-X). Just adding Gestalt to a character doesn't reduce saves.

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-05, 11:51 AM
Oops, I meant Wizard/Cleric, the Steroid Theruge.

Still not very good, he suffers from too much MAD.

Remember, you can only cast one (or possibly two) spells per round! All those spell slots are basically useless.

Ted_Stryker
2007-08-05, 12:23 PM
Cleric/Sorcerer is better than Cleric/Wizard, since CHA helps both sides of the progression. There's still the problem of limited number of actions for spellcasting. I'd probably go with a melee Cleric that has the Arcane Strike feat for a Cleric/Sorcerer build -- then you can use arcane spell slots to buff as a free (or swift, depending on how you play it) action.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-05, 12:35 PM
The wizard/cleric isn't a great design, really. You can't actually use the cleric side's armor proficiency without crippling your wizard (unless you've got some kind of armored caster thing going somehow), you've got significant MAD, your HD is still only a d8... The cleric side brings in a good spell list, of course, but you're not going to be fit for the front lines where you could use the self-buff spells and you can probably get better offensive service and a fair bit of ally buffing out of your wizard magic (which as primary will also probably have a better stat).

If you're building a primary wizard, your actions in combat will probably be spent casting wizard spells. A secondary class should provide passive support for that and maybe an out-of-battle role. Grabbing the Armored Mage fighter variant (available from the CMage excerpt online) on the other side for a total of 8 levels by 17 might be handy, letting you wear a mithril breastplate and a shield for an AC seldom seen on a wizard, along with a d10, a fort save, and solid BAB if you ever need it. Plus no MAD...you aren't taking those fighter levels to hit people, so strength can stay dumped.

I'm kind of fond of the wizard/rogue (way too many skill points, access to the stealth skills, provides trapfinding...plus, he's a wizard!), but d6 HP and poor fort save are problematic.

The monk/druid would probably fly farther envisioned as a druid/monk...Wild Shape Dzilla assisted by wis-armor and fast movement. With the option of delivering a Flurry of blows while in the form of a polar bear.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-05, 12:53 PM
Cloistered Cleric / Wizard gets rid of the MAD, and to a lesser extent so does Favored Soul / Sorcerer

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-05, 12:53 PM
You get the best progression for that level - The Fighter-1/Ranger-1//Monk-1/Bard-1 gets +2/+2/+2 at 1st and +2/+2/+2 at 2nd, for +4/+4/+4.

While the Gestalt rules suggest you use fractional BAB and Fractional saves, they don't require it (hence the occasional question about the BAB on a Fighter-1/Sorcerer X-1//Wizard-X). Just adding Gestalt to a character doesn't reduce saves.
So what happens if I have a Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1//Cleric 3? That has a good Fort progression on BOTH sides, but does that mean it gets +6 Fort from the Fighting side, or +3 from the Cleric side? Even if you are not using fractional BAB and Saves, it still says in the actual rules for Gestalt that you take the best progression (see the SRD link above), and the actual language used in the example is "taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class". In order for that to make sense, we have to look at what progression we're getting at each level, not the actual number. In this case, checking for best Fortitude progression shows "good" at each level, and checking the chart for a good save at level 3 shows a +3.

Allowing good progressions to stack the way you suggest means that a human Wizard 20//20 various base classes and PrCs could have base saves of at least +20/+20/+20 without really trying, and into the low 30s with careful class choices, and still have the class features of a 20th level character.

Yuki Akuma
2007-08-05, 01:02 PM
So what happens if I have a Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 1//Cleric 3? That has a good Fort progression on BOTH sides, but does that mean it gets +6 Fort from the Fighting side, or +3 from the Cleric side? Even if you are not using fractional BAB and Saves, it still says in the actual rules for Gestalt that you take the best progression (see the SRD link above), and the actual language used in the example is "taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class". In order for that to make sense, we have to look at what progression we're getting at each level, not the actual number. In this case, checking for best Fortitude progression shows "good" at each level, and checking the chart for a good save at level 3 shows a +3.

Allowing good progressions to stack the way you suggest means that a human Wizard 20//20 various base classes and PrCs could have base saves of at least +20/+20/+20 without really trying, and into the low 30s with careful class choices, and still have the class features of a 20th level character.

I don't think gestalt was ever really designed with multiclassing in mind.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-05, 01:09 PM
Then why would they have explicit rules for using Prestige Classes? You can get pretty similar save benefits out of PrCing a lot, too, although you probably have to contort the character somewhat to meet the various prerequisites.

But yeah, it's probably a good idea to severely limit multiclassing in Gestalt.

Ted_Stryker
2007-08-05, 08:49 PM
Cloistered Cleric / Wizard gets rid of the MAD, and to a lesser extent so does Favored Soul / Sorcerer
Yeah, kind of, although it's still difficult to use all the character's available spell slots for casting spells, even with reduced MAD. That's why my preference would be for a melee Cleric backed by Sorcerer spell slots for Arcane Striking (which also works while the PC is wearing armor) in this type of build, and since you tend to pump up CHA this way, that helps with pumping up your turn undead attempts for Divine Might or Divine Metamagic (or even turning undead, I guess).

Fax Celestis
2007-08-05, 10:38 PM
Wizard//Archivist also surmounts MAD. Duskblade//Archivist does it and also picks up good BAB and a d8 HD. Duskblade//Bardic Sage is interesting.