Races and how many is to much

[Saffron-sama]

I prefer homebrewing races and over the years I have built a decent amount with most returning. I mainly perfer only allowing my custom races (including custom human).
Right now I have around 20 and thinking about more but how many races is to many?

[Remuko]

I prefer homebrewing races and over the years I have built a decent amount with most returning. I mainly perfer only allowing my custom races (including custom human).
Right now I have around 20 and thinking about more but how many races is to many?

No limit. In fact the fact that nearly anything that exists in 3.5 is playable by RAW (some exceptions exist) is why I refuse to jump to different systems. I think 20 races would be way way way too few.

[Honest Tiefling]

I am going to address this from a lore perspective: As long as the races are balanced enough for the table you are intending to use them with, it depends on the story. If the gods are active and shape their chosen followers, that makes sense. If archmages often create their legacy by using arcane rituals to make a race, that also makes sense. If magic just warps things willy-nilly, that's a fine explanation. If there is planar access (or was) that could work too. Work the diversity of races into the story.

As long as the races are woven into the setting (so no large numbers of elves in a massive amount of hidden elf villages with a large impact on the history and somehow never being around) and introduced to the players in a cohesive fashion...What's the harm?

[Saffron-sama]

Okay, I feared that players would see a large amounts of races and then just decide to not bother with reading any of it and go human.

[Honest Tiefling]

Okay, I feared that players would see a large amounts of races and then just decide to not bother with reading any of it and go human.

There are two types of players in the world: Ones who will do anything they can to play a new, exciting exotic race, and ones who will play a human even if you took their firstborn child and put a gun to their head.

Have you considered...Just banning humans? Or making them rare? Or enslaved?

[Saffron-sama]

There are two types of players in the world: Ones who will do anything they can to play a new, exciting exotic race, and ones who will play a human even if you took their firstborn child and put a gun to their head.

Have you considered...Just banning humans? Or making them rare? Or enslaved?

I don't mind players playing humans I just don't want them to default to human because they thought it was to much reading.
In my first few games humans dominated the world (70%) but in my more recent setting humans often make up about 20% percent of populations with some other races being about the same percent.

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't mind players playing humans I just don't want them to default to human because they thought it was to much reading.

How much is too much? You could just poll them for what sort of storyline they want and plop them down in a particular area that works for that sort of story. Just make sure they get the gist of the races that are common there, with the information for more exotic races available, but not necessary for all players to memorize immediately.

[Psyren]

The problem might be that your custom races are too weak; players gravitate to human when nothing the other races has is capable of beating that bonus feat. We saw this repeatedly in 3.5, with only very specific races (like Grey Elf or Warforged) approaching a human's power, and even then only for specific builds. How do yours stack up against the RAW Pathfinder races?

The printed races in PF still don't have the breadth of applicability humans do, but for specific builds the human ends up outshone most of the time. For a Magus for example, Humans are a solid choice, but being a Tiefling with a prehensile tail opens up a lot of options. Humans make great Sorcerers, but Half-Elves can do everything they can do and more. Humans make strong rangers, but a Kasatha is capable of feats they can't match. And so on.

[Florian]

There´s something to it. I rarely use some of the more uncommon races unless that opens up a very good options, especially if I like the overall fluff and theme of it. There´re more races that I simply look at and think "Yes?....".

[Psyren]

I guess what I'm really saying is that the gap is smaller. With the standard PF races, a choice might not be the utmost optimal, but you don't feel punished for taking it either the way you might in 3.5.

Say I want to be a Half-Orc Sorcerer which an Orcish Bloodline - drawing power from his savage heritage and tempered by his humanity. That would be a fun and conflicted character to play; not as strong as a human sorcerer, but still solid. But a player trying to do that in 3.5 would likely feel penalized by his choices; he might just end up scrapping that and going human. I don't know the details of the OP's custom races, but something similar could be happening here.

[Saffron-sama]

The problem might be that your custom races are too weak; players gravitate to human when nothing the other races has is capable of beating that bonus feat. We saw this repeatedly in 3.5, with only very specific races (like Grey Elf or Warforged) approaching a human's power, and even then only for specific builds. How do yours stack up against the RAW Pathfinder races?

The printed races in PF still don't have the breadth of applicability humans do, but for specific builds the human ends up outshone most of the time. For a Magus for example, Humans are a solid choice, but being a Tiefling with a prehensile tail opens up a lot of options. Humans make great Sorcerers, but Half-Elves can do everything they can do and more. Humans make strong rangers, but a Kasatha is capable of feats they can't match. And so on.

Most races I make tend to be quite a bit stronger then the normal pathfinder races.
While I have not presented the races to my players, I have experienced in an old friend's game several years ago that his 30 or so races were not even looked at by most of the players and they just went human.
I was concerned that most players tune out a large amount of races and just pick something they know.

[Psyren]

Stronger how?

If they truly are stronger and your players are going with human anyway, it may very well be as you say, that the custom races have a wall of text in their race entry and they'd just rather not deal with it.

[VoxRationis]

There are two ways to think of when they grow to be too many: when they start competing with one another for conceptual space and when they start growing to the point where they can't really come up with viable populations in the geography available to them.
For the first, a lot of the races D&D has made are kind of redundant. They differ according to certain mechanical minutiae and that's about it; sometimes they don't even meaningfully differ in mechanics. From an in-universe perspective, there's little difference between a tasloi and a goblin. There are frankly an unreasonable number of brute-barbarian-horde species in D&D, and I doubt a single DM's campaign is really supposed to deal with them all. Instead, the MM gives a DM multiple options for the exact kind of brute enemy they want their players to face.
From a geographical perspective, if your campaign setting is dominated by a few large, well-populated human kingdoms with centralized states, and the only free space is a handful of mountains along the borders of those kingdoms, you're not going to be able to support several dozen brute-horde type species capable of mounting significant incursions on their own strength. Centaurs are going to need lots of room; giants will consume a lot in the way of resources. If a species is represented in your setting by a couple of individuals and no others of their kind for hundreds of miles, then they're probably remnants of a larger population that's been largely displaced and may well be on the verge of extinction. (Or else dragons, but that's a niche case, since they are apex predators with flight ranges of hundreds of miles.)

[Psyren]

That's true enough for the world, but with PCs you can contrive just about anything. A PC can hail from a distant and uncharted land or planet, be an extradimensional interloper, the result of a magical or alchemical experiment (failed or successful), a reskinned version of something more common in the world, the result of a planar breach or divine accident, the subject of a reincarnate spell from a previous character, and plenty of other possible justifications. With PCs, it doesn't matter if they're part of only a handful of beings, or even the only one of their kind anywhere in the (known) world.

I recall one forumite (hamishspence?) came up with a very plausible way to get one of his players to be a Warforged in Faerun; he had a historical ties and everything.

[Saffron-sama]

Stronger how?

If they truly are stronger and your players are going with human anyway, it may very well be as you say, that the custom races have a wall of text in their race entry and they'd just rather not deal with it.

No ability score penalties, strong race traits (Blindsight, See in Darkness, heals 1 hp per hour with the abiliy to turn it into fast healing 1 for 1 minute per level once a day, ect.) With most races have a couple alternate race rrait and several feats.

[Psyren]

No ability score penalties, stronge race traits (Blindsight, See in Darkness, heals 1 hp per hour with the abiliy to turn it into fast healing 1 for 1 minute per level once a day, ect.) With most races have a couple alternate race rrait and several feats.

In that case, your players may simply not have the system mastery to realize how good things like Blindsight and See In Darkness are. Or perhaps they've never been in encounters where those abilities were useful.

[BWR]

Too many depends on how many you want and what players are interested in. Personally, unless it were a setting like Planescape with a ton of races I'm familiar with, 20 entirely new ones right out the gate would be daunting and I'd probably just go with something familiar until I got a grip on the game. I suspect most people I play with would fall into two camps: those who think it's overwhelming and will stick with what they know and those who think 'new shiny mechanics I can build with'. Unless you have developed them properly, which leads to point two:

Most important: Culture.
Races without a well-crafted culture and history backing them up are pretty dull. Plain stats are boring. If you manage to write up half a proper outline of culture and history for a race, you'll have my attention. And I don't mean just things like "this race lives in cities and is sneaky and weird", but proper development. The reason humans are my preferred race in almost any setting is because they have tons of cool cultures to choose from and variation, not just 'human culture' or 'elf culture' or 'dwarf culture' or whatever.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

In an unpublished setting I work on, we have just over a dozen new races (or new stats for existing races/creatures; harpies, centaurs, orcs, lizardfolk, and drow all either have playable stats or new stats if they were already a race), but I spearheaded an effort to add different human ethnicities. They have the fun of engaging the setting and playing something somewhat unique, but the reliability of being one of the strongest and most versatile races. Otherwise, I believe we have something like 30+ races available in the setting?

[Saffron-sama]

Most important: Culture.
Races without a well-crafted culture and history backing them up are pretty dull. Plain stats are boring. If you manage to write up half a proper outline of culture and history for a race, you'll have my attention. And I don't mean just things like "this race lives in cities and is sneaky and weird", but proper development. The reason humans are my preferred race in almost any setting is because they have tons of cool cultures to choose from and variation, not just 'human culture' or 'elf culture' or 'dwarf culture' or whatever.

Culture in my games tend to be a different beast then Races. While most races in my settings tend to have a couple of their own culture. Reason why I tend to only allow my races is because I seperate culture from the race traits making them solely a what the race gains physically or supernaturally though they do have mental bonuses it represents things like the way the race brains work.
Culture offers unique bonuses but most are akin to 5th editions background. A human could be raised in an Elven culture and choose a culture that is usually for elves. Same goes with others.

Right now I am in the middle of revising my races, adding more and trying to remember all the things I had written down. Due to a major malfunction my old computer is dead so, I have allot of work trying to recall all that Info.

[Florian]

@Saffron-sama:

You know, this leads to the Star Wars dilemma. Different races inhabiting the same culture, sharing the same manners, wearing the same clothing..... Then you don´t need actual stats but simple chose by which alien look you want to have (or use a random generator).

[BWR]

Culture in my games tend to be a different beast then Races. While most races in my settings tend to have a couple of their own culture. Reason why I tend to only allow my races is because I seperate culture from the race traits making them solely a what the race gains physically or supernaturally though they do have mental bonuses it represents things like the way the race brains work.
Culture offers unique bonuses but most are akin to 5th editions background. A human could be raised in an Elven culture and choose a culture that is usually for elves. Same goes with others..

That's the way it should be, and it brings up a relevant point: if the cultures are what is interesting but are not generally race-defined, why do you need so many races? All other things being equal I would probably default to human in place of some new stuff that boils down to a bunch of mechanics.
For all these races to be around there has to be something unique to them beyond mechanics that makes them interesting.

Race-specific culture is one way, and a decent way with a proud history in D&D (think of the Gith races), and the idea of race culture does not even need to be a matter of genetics, it could simply be that the other races didn't develop this particular culture, not that they can't.

[Gildedragon]

For cultures I'd treat it somewhat like PF traits or a free feat

+2 / +2 to two or three of skills pertinent to that culture (profession Sailor and swim with a coastal culture) (or a bonus skill point that has to go to those skills, those skills are always class skills)
+2 to Diplomacy, Kn Local, Kn Nob, History, Geo, Religion within that culture, possibly Survival

Races give +Ability scores and abilities like dark-vision

[Barstro]

Okay, I feared that players would see a large amounts of races and then just decide to not bother with reading any of it and go human.

I, for one, wouldn't bother reading any of it. But, that's due mainly to how different races have been addressed in the games I've played. If I'm going to play a non-human, then I want there to be roleplaying consequences. Since that has never happened, it becomes more of a min/max thing.

In your case, with you writing the races, I'd be more inclined to read them and choose a "non traditional" race. Probably still wouldn't read them, though. I'd be more likely to tell you what I have in mind for a character and ask for a recommendation.

If you have the misfortune of having other players like me, I suggest coming up with five or so races that fit the setting and give those to the players to read (and offer the rest of them to anyone who wants them). This limits the choices to a manageable amount while still allowing greater variety for those who actively want to go through all your choices.

[Psyren]

I don't think there should be roleplaying consequences all the time. I mean sure, if you're running something like a Tiefling, Dhampir or Kender - something imbued with dark forces like that - you should expect average citizens to react poorly. But I'd expect the reaction to things like Elves and Dwarves to be more individualized.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Okay, I feared that players would see a large amounts of races and then just decide to not bother with reading any of it and go human.
It's possible. It's entirely dependent on the people you play with, and how much they enjoy digging into the character creation minigame. Your custom races can be entirely balanced mechanically, but if I just want to get this **** over with and start playing, I'm probably going to say "screw it, human" and move on.

[Jay R]

I don't mind players playing humans I just don't want them to default to human because they thought it was to much reading.

What you want doesn't matter. A player who would rather play a human than learn enough about a new race will do so, and that's fine.

Many players are not here to spend lots of time absorbing rules. Let them play that way.

[Saffron-sama]

What you want doesn't matter. A player who would rather play a human than learn enough about a new race will do so, and that's fine.

Many players are not here to spend lots of time absorbing rules. Let them play that way.

Enough of a new race is not what I am thinking about. If a person wants to play human because he does not want to learn about a race which is purely mechanics in the game as they can have any culture in the game since i deviorced race and culture then thats fine.
What I am worried about is that if I introduce 25 ish races and players decide not to read any and default to human not because they did not want to be a different race but because they did not know were to start or it felt like homework.
As I wrote I don't mind players being human I just don't want them to miss an opportunity to play something they would enjoy because I added more races then necessary.

[Gildedragon]

Enough of a new race is not what I am thinking about. If a person wants to play human because he does not want to learn about a race which is purely mechanics in the game as they can have any culture in the game since i deviorced race and culture then thats fine.
What I am worried about is that if I introduce 25 ish races and players decide not to read any and default to human not because they did not want to be a different race but because they did not know were to start or it felt like homework.
As I wrote I don't mind players being human I just don't want them to miss an opportunity to play something they would enjoy because I added more races then necessary.

Ask them their char concepts and give them a shorter list of either flavorful or crunchy races to fit their ideas.

[Saffron-sama]

Ask them their char concepts and give them a shorter list of either flavorful or crunchy races to fit their ideas.

I normally help players build characters though this time the players want me to send everything for the players via email and they are going to have the characters built beforw the first session on July 2nd. Which will make it a little difficult unless i can set up a time that I can work with a person for the character.

[Gildedragon]

I normally help players build characters though this time the players want me to send everything for the players via email and they are going to have the characters built beforw the first session on July 2nd. Which will make it a little difficult unless i can set up a time that I can work with a person for the character.

Ask: What's your concept
You send them all the races with the ones you think are best at the top.

Also part of the reason humans are so liked: bonus feat

[Jay R]

As I wrote I don't mind players being human I just don't want them to miss an opportunity to play something they would enjoy because I added more races then necessary.

Players who don't want to read your stuff aren't going to. And they will enjoy the game. There's no problem for your players here.

The only problem appears to be that you want people to read your stuff, and some of them don't want to. Let it go.

[Saffron-sama]

Players who don't want to read your stuff aren't going to. And they will enjoy the game. There's no problem for your players here.

The only problem appears to be that you want people to read your stuff, and some of them don't want to. Let it go.

I don't care if they don't read it. What I care about is if I send a 40 page document to the players and they see the page amount and skip to human were if I had sent a document half the size and they would have read it.
If they want to play a human then they can but if they feel forced human because of its too much reading is what I don't want.
I plan on suggesting races to players based on what they want to do but thats if me and them can communicate whats what.

[Psyren]

Was that just an off-the-cuff example, or are you really sending 40 pages of custom races to your players?

It might help if you posted a sample race or two. I'd be curious to see what kind of format they're in if a player can read something like Blindsight and decide that it's not worth choosing.

[Clistenes]

There are two types of players in the world: Ones who will do anything they can to play a new, exciting exotic race, and ones who will play a human even if you took their firstborn child and put a gun to their head.

Have you considered...Just banning humans? Or making them rare? Or enslaved?

That would be a **** move if the player has trouble getting in the shoes of those exotic races...

[ijon]

if you're really worried about people getting a gigantic list of races and tuning out, just make a table listing a very brief summary of each of them

the columns could be as simple as "race name", "ability score adjustments", "names of racial abilities", and "one-liner describing the race"; that'd convey the information most players care about in a simple, compact format they can skim easily

[Barstro]

That would be a **** move if the player has trouble getting in the shoes of those exotic races...

How is it bad to have a plot device where a particular race is enslaved? That seems like the proper way to instill restrictions on choices.

Whoever created this world doesn't want me eating spaghetti flavored ice cream with bits of plutonium in it. That's why this world doesn't have any.

[Saffron-sama]

Was that just an off-the-cuff example, or are you really sending 40 pages of custom races to your players?

It might help if you posted a sample race or two. I'd be curious to see what kind of format they're in if a player can read something like Blindsight and decide that it's not worth choosing.

I have not sent or completed the document yet. I have seen players throw away large amount of homebrew races in a friends game which is why I was concerned if I was adding to much races.
Right now the document is 14 pages long with little to no flavor text or racial feats. I also have not added an formatting to it to seperate races or make it greatly presentable. What I have done so far is made or adapted most of the race's mechanics.

Edit: I am comfortable with these two races and probably won't change them unless I missed something. Keep in mind that the party solely uses spheres of power as a magic system and that I am adding a new ability score Arcana to be the sole casting stat, spellcraft and maybe some other stuff.

Apilari
These humanoid looking jellyfish like creatures with flesh that takes any lightly colored hue and is alsmost glassy looking. The apilari have on their head a fine hair like tendrils which collects ambient magic to eat. They appear humanoid in most other respects they have heads, arms, legs, fingers and toes. Their eyes are normally darker shades of their skin tones and the they have human like teeth.
Most apilari live in the deep oceans.
Racial traits
+2 Arcana and +2 Dexterity- All apilari have a knack for magic and their strange body grants them great fine manipulation capacity.
Jelly: The apilari flesh is akin to a jellyfish. It gains +5 to escape physical bonds & counts as a size category smaller when squeezing.
Odd Metabolism: Apilari can eat and drink like most humans or it can sustain off of pure magic. While in areas of normal or higher magic they passively consume the magic in the area for sustenance. They must spend at least an area of normal or higher magic to gain the benefits of a day's worth of nutrients. Alternatively in areas of low magic the apilari may spend a spell point to gain a day's worth of nutrients.
Amphibious & Swim speed 40' and pressure reaistance up to 2 miles.
Toxic Flesh: The flesh of an apilari is toxic and foul flavored to any creature consuming it. Any creature that hits an apilari with a bite attack or swallow whole must succeed a fortitude save equal to 10 + 1/2 the apilari character level + con mod. Failure cause the creature to become sixkened, and if swallowed whole it vomits releasing the apilari and its stomach contents. A creature hat consumes an apilari or part of one and passes the fortitude save aftter an hour must make a second fortitude save of take 1d6 con damage this repeats hourly or until the creature saves once, cured of poison or has occured six times.
Natural Magic: All apilari have a spell point pool equal to their arcana mod (min 1). If they take levels in a class which grants a spell point pool they add both pools together.
Magic Sting (su): The apilari have a weak atig which they use their natural magic to strengthen. The apilari can cause the target of its touch (a touch attack), unarmed strike or natural weapon to take 1d6 damage or an additional 1d6 damage. If a creature is immune to poison they are immune to the extra damage. The apilari may spend a spell point to increase this damage to 1d6 per character level (min 2d6).
Manalocation (su): This functions as echolocation but using magic instead of sound, the apilari has blindsight 60'. This however is blocked by magical means of hiding including invisibility and illusions but the apilari still receives perception or will saves vs the effect. The character may spend a spell point to increase he range to 120' for a round per character level.
Bioluminescence: The apilari can shed light about the size of a candle its color and patterns is up to the apilari and may be changed as a free action or turned on and off as a free action.

Hajinn
Born to those who have Genie in their bloodline. They looking human besides odd hints of the elements including hair flowin in the wind that does not exist or eyes they are like cut gems.
+2 Strength and +2 Arcana
Energy Resistance: The Hajinn has Acid, Cold, Electricity and Fire resistance 5.
Energy Pool (su): When Acid, Cold, Electricity or Fire overcomes the Hajinn's Energy Resistance the leftovers spill into the Energy Pool the Hajinn takes no damage from the damage that goes into the pool. The pools maximum is the Hajinn's character level times two plus its arcana mod and it only stops that much per day. While this pool has energy the Hajinn may spend points from it to bolster its defenses or harm other creatures, though points spentfrom it still counts against the character's pool.
Bolstering Energy (su): Hajinn may spend a energy point as a swift action to bolster its energy resistance. The Hajinn's energy resistance increases by 5 for one round per character level. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack.
Energy Assualt (su): As a free action during an attack the Hajinn may spend an energy point to have the attack deal 1d6 + 1d6 per 5 character levels in either acid, cold, electricity or fire damage chosen when used. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack.
Energy Death (su): When a Hajinn is killed its energy pool explodes put violently in a 10' radius around the hajinn's body, the body takes no damage but everyhing else must make a reflex save with a Dc of 10 + 1/2 the hajinn character level + arcana mod. If faiiled the target takes 1d6 + 1d6 per 5 levels per energy point in the energy pool, if successful they take half damage. The damage is Acid, Cold, Electricity and Fire all at the same time ignoring resistance unless it resist all. If brought back to life the energy pool is embty and must be filled again.
Low-Light vision

[Gildedragon]

I have not sent or completed the document yet. I have seen players throw away large amount of homebrew races in a friends game which is why I was concerned if I was adding to much races.
Right now the document is 14 pages long with little to no flavor text or racial feats. I also have not added an formatting to it to seperate races or make it greatly presentable. What I have done so far is made or adapted most of the race's mechanics.

14 pages is too long.
Fluff ought be brief. Two sentences tops

"X are nomadic skyworshipers. They make good druids, barbarians, and meldshapers."
"Outside of their native jungles Y are often found in metropolises and battlefields, tending to the injured and bored. They make good Clerics, bards, and paladins."
"Though often reviled by the mainstream, Z's are appreciated by any general worth their salt as they make excellent martials. Their wanderlust typically pushes them towards professions like sailors or soldiers."
Format I'd suggest
1) a table:
Name, Ability Adjustments
2)
Name
Blurb
Ability Scores
Special Abilities

[Jay R]

I suggest a summary with the actual rule changes and a two-line summary for each race. Then they they read up on only those two or three races that might appeal to them.

If I'm looking for a cool race for a ranger, then I shouldn't have to wade through pages of descriptions of races with minuses to STR, CON, and WIS.

[Most players still won't bother with it, no matter what you do, but this might incrementally increase the small number who consider learning a new race for their PC.]

[Saffron-sama]

Changes making to how I present the races.
I am now going to switch over to a Spreadsheet instead of a word processor. I am going to include a master table with ability scores and senses and a two line describtion.
Only goig to included 17 instead of the 25ish I had, mainly because I had writers block when trying to remember them / creating them.

I just talked to one of the players and he suggested spreadsheet due to how easy it is to read. He may have been the wrong person to talk about race numbers with since he suggest I add a dozen more to the list instead of remove some. He would read a 50 page document of races if I sent it to him.

[ijon]

if you want to make it easier to navigate, you can split the ability score adjustments up into one row per ability, so the reader could sort them that way

[Elderand]

You have too many races the moment you start making different sub races of a race based less on actual physical difference and more on culture and place they live.

I'm looking at you elves

[Calthropstu]

It's good to have multiple races, I mean maybe someone has a cramp and does poorly...

[Godskook]

Too many races pushes you to merge culture and personality into race, leaving you with more and more homogenized races that don't resemble living breathing worlds at all. This is only exacerbated by races that give mechanical advantage to certain build-archetypes, as your players will embrace those archetypes into those races.

If you love making "races", an interesting suggestion with which to sate your homebrew-thirst is to start making "Moral-profiles", "cultural templates" or some other character-generation option that enables your races to shine as more than just a race choice.

For instance:

Moral-profile - Honor Bound: An Honor-bound character has advantage whenever he -actually- pledges his honor to a cause. He has disadvantage for a year if he forsakes his cause, and loses all XP(no level loss).

Cultural Template - Street-Rat: Snap decisions are the difference between life and death on the street. Whenever this *player* is indecisive, lay out the options and roll a die(re-roll as needed to hit an option). The Street-rat does that.