Initiative system brain storming discussion

[dropbear8mybaby]

I'm trying to come up with an initiative system for my homebrew system. This is not D&D. So the action economy of D&D or what you can do in D&D is not a part of this system.

I'm looking for something dynamic but quick and free-flowing that can be easily implemented and understood at the table. Here's some brain farts so far that I'd like to hear some feedback on. Also, not claiming originality but I haven't looked around very deeply into any other systems so if this is similar, or if you think I could benefit from reviewing some other system, please by all means point that out.

System thus far (EDITED 3rd of June):

Initiative is determined by everyone's dexterity scores. If there are multiple combatants with the same dexterity score, then each one rolls a d20 until an order and no multiples exist.

Declare intended action. Actions must be specific. "I attack this target with this dagger," not, "I attack."

Each action has a speed represented as a number of ticks. Movement is done in 1 lots of one tick. Most attacks are 1 tick unless the weapon is cumbersome and/or unwieldy in some manner. Spells have a casting time during which the caster is concentrating and can be interrupted.

Movement can be made as either a walk, jog or run. A walk is the character's speed score while a jog is double that and a run is triple. A character can walk around an opponent's reach without letting down their guard. If the character attempts to jog within an opponent's reach, they cannot use a dodge or parry reaction during the move. If the character runs within an opponent's reach, they can't dodge or parry and also provoke an attack of opportunity for lowering their guard.

Count upwards until someone's personal action time is reached for their action. If multiple actions occur at the same time, person with highest Initiative goes first, next highest initiative and so on.

When someone has finished their turn, they declare a new action immediately and add that to the their personal time clock.

Reactions can be taken at any time but you lose your current intended action. Must then immediately decide on your next action but the count for that action has a one tick penalty from the time interval when the reaction was taken. So a monster has an attack action occurring on count 5, as it's a 5 tick action. On count 3, the monster reacts to a player's attack with a dodge. The monster loses the action they were going to take on count 5 but immediately decides to take a 1 tick attack action. That attack action will now occur on count 5 (1 tick + 1 tick readjustment penalty from count 3).

Ready action depends on associated action. Once the time of the action has come about, it is always on until trigger occurs, which is a reaction. Say you want to prepare an action to attack anyone who comes within range of your greatsword. Greatsword has an attack speed of 2. After the initiative count has reached 2, the ready action comes into effect and anyone who is within range or comes into range later, can be attacked as a reaction.

Dodge as a reaction to being hit. Dodge is a trainable skill and allows a counter roll against a physical attack. Alternatively you can take the Dodge action until you decide to end it, or until you're attacked and forced to roll a counter.

Actions can be interrupted by attacks. If you're hit before you get to take your action, even if you don't take damage due to damage reduction, you must still roll a constitution save (using the attack roll as the DC) to see whether or not your action was interrupted. A natural 20 always interrupts. If interrupted then you must choose another action in the same way as you would if you'd chosen a reaction.

Feint is an attack against the target's wisdom score rather than dexterity. If successful, then the attacker can immediately make an attack against the target's dexterity that will bypass the target's armour if it hits.

Riposte is a reaction that can be used only after a successful parry. The attack happens from the count of the parry plus the weapon's attack speed and does not incur the normal readjustment penalty for a reaction.

Parry is a reaction that allows the target to make a weapon skill check against the attacker's attack roll as the target number. Success on the check means the incoming attack was parried.

Hide is a 1 tick action that requires partial cover or concealment. Being hidden does not mean being silent. It simply means that the target you are hidden from, can't see you.

Sneak is a special type of movement that only allows you to move your walking speed per turn but allows you to roll a Sneak check to avoid making noise while you move.

If a target cannot see or hear you, then any attack against that target can only fail on a natural 1.

You can combine an attack and a move, in whichever order is the most beneficial.

Dexterity equals the DC required for an attacker to equal or exceed in order to hit. Also gives the bonus to the d20 roll the character uses to attack with a weapon. A shield adds to the target's DC to be hit.

Wisdom equals the DC required for an attacker to equal or exceed with a feint.


PC 1: Dexterity 12 (+1) plus shield (+2), Wisdom 16; uses mace with range of 3 and speed of 1.

PC 2: Dexterity 14 (+2), Wisdom 10; uses longsword with range of 5 and speed of 1.

Monster 1: Dexterity 17 (+3), Wisdom 12; uses claws with range of 2 and speed of 1.

Monster 2: Dexterity 10 (+0), Wisdom 10; uses polearm with range of 8 and speed of 2.

[N0b0dyY0uKn0w]

This makes me think of some old jrpg battle systems where the "bigger" action you take the longer you have to wait before it being your turn again. Maybe you can take a look behind those systems as to how they implement it and go from there?

[Vogie]

Actually, the way you have explained it makes it looks almost like a RoboRally-style combat - where everyone "queues" an action, then it happens simultaneously, then the queuing happens again. Turns the system into Less JRPG/action economy, more like cinematic fights on an Avengers movie or like an American football game. That way, initiative is more of an action-organizer. You can then add or subtract characters from the initiative for the next one-second round.

[JeenLeen]

A lot of this sounds a lot like how initiative and actions work in Exalted 2nd edition.
In it, time in combat is measured in 'ticks' (basically to get away from a set time like seconds--a tick is just a really short moment of time). Most actions take the same number of ticks, but some (like using a dagger) take less and some (like using a greatax) take more. When it is your turn, you declare your action, do it, and then you wait the number of ticks for your turn to come again.
Big difference is that (if I read you right) every one declares their action when combat starts and you then wait for your turn to come. That works about the same, so seems cool.

Other differences are that reactions and dodging don't take time. Dodging is assumed (and isn't actually an 'action', as you don't roll to dodge, it's just a set number, sort of like AC in D&D--although how it interacts is different than D&D).

I like Exalted's way of tracking actions, so the above is not a criticism. I recommend you try to find the rules and read them; might give you some inspiration. (I found it really hard to follow when I first read it, but it worked out well when playing it.)

A recommendation: unless reactions in your system are as good/powerful as actions, I say that you just add more ticks until the person gets a new turn instead of making them lose their turn. So, for example if I was waiting 4 ticks since I just used a dagger, but then I use a 2 tick reaction, that just adds 2 more ticks until my turn comes again.

I generally dislike Dodge being an action instead of an assumed passive thing, but if it works well for your system, well, then it works well. (My objections to it as an action are 1) takes more dice rolling, since you have to roll Dodge; and 2) makes you choose between trying to avoid a hit or getting your action sooner/better). My experience is mainly from old World of Darkness; didn't like how it handled dodging.
I could see making Dodge a 1 or 2-tick reaction: small penalty, but still worthwhile.

Another recommendation: your method of declaring an action, then waiting to accomplish it until your counter times out, is decent, but what happens if, say, your target dies in the meantime or something more important comes up?
In old World of Darkness, you could change your action but with a penalty. My group wound up finding this method of declaring actions before executing them very annoying and hard to keep track of, so we eventually scrapped it. I'm not saying you shouldn't implement your idea as written, but you should have some loophole for a player to not stab the corpse his friend just killed or to heal himself if he's about to bleed out from that gunshot he got a second ago.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Other differences are that reactions and dodging don't take time. Dodging is assumed (and isn't actually an 'action', as you don't roll to dodge, it's just a set number, sort of like AC in D&D--although how it interacts is different than D&D).
Well, I'm assuming dodging is happening all the time but that dodging as an action is the character focusing on that to exclusivity.


A recommendation: unless reactions in your system are as good/powerful as actions, I say that you just add more ticks until the person gets a new turn instead of making them lose their turn. So, for example if I was waiting 4 ticks since I just used a dagger, but then I use a 2 tick reaction, that just adds 2 more ticks until my turn comes again.
It's more about interrupting an action. If you're intending to do one thing and then suddenly change to do something in-between, then you have to readjust before attempting the originally intended action.


Another recommendation: your method of declaring an action, then waiting to accomplish it until your counter times out, is decent, but what happens if, say, your target dies in the meantime or something more important comes up?
Then you can use a reaction to change your intended action. Again, you have to readjust and can't simply immediately adapt to a changed circumstance.


In old World of Darkness, you could change your action but with a penalty. My group wound up finding this method of declaring actions before executing them very annoying and hard to keep track of, so we eventually scrapped it.
Well, keeping track is merely having your own personal counter and adding to it. You have an action that happens on count 20 and then decide to do an action that takes 5 "ticks" or seconds or whatever, then your next turn comes at 25. Not sure how that would be difficult to keep track of.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I updated it with a few more thoughts added. I am yet to test any of this because I need to get it to a point where it is ready to be tested. So still looking for holes or advice.