[DnD 3.5] So, about that +10 Shuriken...

[prototype00]

So in a fit of madness/ignorance, your DM lets you use completely RAW rules for making the +10 Shuriken of most powerful weapon in the game (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10419.0).

No backsies. You can craft it to your specifications. 4k gp.

What do you put on it?

For me:

+1 (Required, but no more than that, as you can Greater Magic Weapon it up to +5 even with +9 points of mods on it)
Morphing (+1 Equivalent) - This turns your Shuriken into any light weapon you want. Kind of also required.
Keen (+1 Equivalent) - Since one of the best light weapons is the Kukri (18-20 crit range, Now 15-20) this is pretty good
Collision (+2 Equivalent) - +5, one of the best damage bang for your buck!
Cursespewing (+3 Equivalent) - Really, really, really screws up your foe when you crit. No save allowed, No SR.
Illusion Bane (+1 Equivalent) - If I don't have True Seeing up all the time, this makes it almost as if I did.
Enfeebling (+1 Equivalent) - Why not, they're really going to hate life when I crit (1d6 + 2 Strength Damage)

And of course since I haven't reached (and won't ever reach) the 200k gp limit on Magic items, I can add the following:

Aquatic - Freedom of Movement when fighting underwater. (2000gp)
Everbright - Why not, low DC blind. More importantly, immune to Rust Monsters! (2000gp)
Prismatic Burst - When I crit, casts Prismatic Spray! (30000gp)
Shadowstrike - Surprise a dude once per day, not bad (5000gp)
Sizing - For all your Giant Growth needs! (5000gp)
Vanishing - For when you just need to GTFO. (8000gp)

Eh, your Shuriken is gonna come in a little over budget... call it 1040gp extra, for a grand total of 5040gp and we're square!

Not related, but the Spellblade enhancement from Player's Guide to Faerun is just too nice to pass up.
Spellblade - (This goes on my armour spikes) - Dispel Magic (6000gp)
Spellblade - (This goes on my shield) - Greater Dispel Magic (6000gp)
Spellblade - (This goes on my Gauntlet) - Mordenkainen's Disjunction (6000gp)

What would other people put on their dream weapon (I kinda wanted to know if I missed anything).

prototype00

[Deophaun]

Morphing (+1 Equivalent) - This turns your Shuriken into any light weapon you want. Kind of also required.
No, it doesn't. A shuriken is a ranged weapon, not a light weapon. Morphing does nothing on it.

[prototype00]

No, it doesn't. A shuriken is a ranged weapon, not a light weapon. Morphing does nothing on it.


You can reshape a morphing weapon into
any other melee or thrown weapon of the
same size and type (light, one-handed,
or two-handed). For instance, a morphing
greatsword could become a spear,
greataxe, or dire fl ail.

And according to the TWF rules, Shuriken are considered light weapons.


Thrown Weapons

The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

prototype00

[Florian]

So you think a very specific rules tailored to some feat should overwrite the general rule?

[prototype00]

So you think a very specific rules tailored to some feat should overwrite the general rule?

Yep! Specific trumps general. Thats a rule, that is.

prototype00

[Florian]

Yep! Specific trumps general. Thats a rule, that is.

prototype00

Specific, in this case, points to TWF and throwing. You don´t fulfill that condition, it doesn´t trump.

[PrismCat21]

And according to the TWF rules, Shuriken are considered light weapons.

"Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner,"

prototype00
Emphasis on 'in this manner'. Meaning only when you throw it.

[Deophaun]

And according to the TWF rules, Shuriken are considered light weapons.
No, they are considered light weapons for the purpose of TWFing. There's a difference. The enhancement doesn't suddenly start working when you're wielding two weapons, then stop when you aren't.

[PrismCat21]

Yep! Specific trumps general. Thats a rule, that is.

prototype00

Yes, it is. It 'specifically allows you to treat it as a light weapon for throwing only. Nothing else.

[The_Jette]

Yep! Specific trumps general. Thats a rule, that is.

prototype00

Honestly, I want to agree with you on this. Shurikens are thrown weapons, and I doubt that anyone would disagree that they're light. However, since you enchant shurikens with the same rules as ammunition, it's a toss up. Adding morphing to ammunition would probably let you turn an arrow into a crossbow bolt, but shurikens are thrown. It's a headache to even try to figure out the RAW where they're concerned. You may have just started a huge flame war thread, inadvertently.

[Florian]

Honestly, I want to agree with you on this. Shurikens are thrown weapons, and I doubt that anyone would disagree that they're light. However, since you enchant shurikens with the same rules as ammunition, it's a toss up. Adding morphing to ammunition would probably let you turn an arrow into a crossbow bolt, but shurikens are thrown. It's a headache to even try to figure out the RAW where they're concerned. You may have just started a huge flame war thread, inadvertently.

Nah, you only start flame wars by insisting on Jormengard-style reading of the rules.
We could probably sift thru all examples where "Ammunition" and "Thrown" intersect, but I guess this´ll be a narrow field.

[prototype00]

I suppose you could use a crossbow bolt instead:


Bolts

A crossbow bolt used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (crit ×2). Bolts come in a wooden case that holds 10 bolts (or 5, for a repeating crossbow). A bolt that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Does it stop being a Light Improvised weapon at any point?

prototype00

[prototype00]

Honestly, I want to agree with you on this. Shurikens are thrown weapons, and I doubt that anyone would disagree that they're light. However, since you enchant shurikens with the same rules as ammunition, it's a toss up. Adding morphing to ammunition would probably let you turn an arrow into a crossbow bolt, but shurikens are thrown. It's a headache to even try to figure out the RAW where they're concerned. You may have just started a huge flame war thread, inadvertently.

The thing about Morphing is it only cares about 2 things: Type and Size.

The only parameters listed for type are "Light, One Handed, Two Handed", size is self-evident. So anything light would become anything else light. (But you can make it Exotic or Martial or what have you).

prototype00

[Deophaun]

The only parameters listed for type are "Light, One Handed, Two Handed", size is self-evident. So anything light would become anything else light. (But you can make it Exotic or Martial or what have you).
And "light improvised" is not one of the types.

[prototype00]

And "light improvised" is not one of the types.

Neither is Light Martial or Light Exotic if you are using that kind of classification.


same size and type (light, one-handed,
or two-handed)

for reference.

prototype00

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, so I think your best bet is to go the Vaporal route with a morphing enchantment to turn it into a serpent's tongue arrow and make it a single use item that activates surge of fortune and truestrike at the same time. Standard action to activate followed by firing it the next round. Auto-threaten a crit and voporal autokill and a +20 and ignore concealment on your roll to confirm. Automatically kills anything that cannot survive losing it's head.

Silly custom magic item, but still a good weapon.

[Deophaun]

for reference.
Yes, you are very proud of the fact that you can use quote tags. I get it.

You are missing that this is for the purposes of using it as a melee weapon.

It.
Is.
Not.
For.
The.
Purpose.
Of.
Enhancements.

It's a dishonest reading of the text to say otherwise.

The benefit that shuriken have over a crossbow bolt or an arrow or any other ammunition is that shuriken only break when thrown; if you never throw it, it stays intact, hit or miss. Arrows and crossbow bolts will break if you stab someone in the eye with it, and they have a 50% chance to do so if you swing and hit only air. So the question becomes: what enhancements are suitable for ammunition that would also make a good, cheap permanent magic weapon with a -4 to hit penalty. Morphing is not one of those.

[prototype00]

Ok, so I think your best bet is to go the Vaporal route with a morphing enchantment to turn it into a serpent's tongue arrow and make it a single use item that activates surge of fortune and truestrike at the same time. Standard action to activate followed by firing it the next round. Auto-threaten a crit and voporal autokill and a +20 and ignore concealment on your roll to confirm. Automatically kills anything that cannot survive losing it's head.

Silly custom magic item, but still a good weapon.

I mean, if you consider it being a valid target for Morphing via it's "Light Improvised" classification, the rules of Morphing allow you to turn it into any Light weapon you want. You could even do that Kukri I mentioned in the first post.

prototype00

[The_Jette]

Neither is Light Martial or Light Exotic if you are using that kind of classification.

The ultimate question here is this: since a shuriken is treated as ammunition for purposes of crafting and enchanting (at the very least), can you even add the Morphic quality to it? I don't believe that ammunition can have that quality, but can't find evidence anywhere. If your DM says yes, and that it works as you say, then it sounds like a really cheap way of getting a couple of amazing Kukris for a TWF rogue based around daggers. Just make two of them.

On the other hand, since the base weapon is still a shuriken, and shurikens are treated as ammunition, that means that after the first hit you have the possibility that the enchantment will go away, regardless of the form that it has taken at this moment. So, that's another possible issue. If I were to build a shuriken, I would simply put as many defensive abilities as I could find, wield it in my off hand to gain the benefits, and never attack with it. But, that's just me.

[prototype00]

Yes, you are very proud of the fact that you can use quote tags. I get it.

You are missing that this is for the purposes of using it as a melee weapon.

It.
Is.
Not.
For.
The.
Purpose.
Of.
Enhancements.

It's a dishonest reading of the text to say otherwise.

The benefit that shuriken have over a crossbow bolt or an arrow or any other ammunition is that shuriken only break when thrown; if you never throw it, it stays intact, hit or miss. Arrows and crossbow bolts will break if you stab someone in the eye with it, and they have a 50% chance to do so if you swing and hit only air. So the question becomes: what enhancements are suitable for ammunition that would also make a good, cheap permanent magic weapon with a -4 to hit penalty. Morphing is not one of those.

You seem to have a lot of issues with the basic premise of the thread, and I thank you for pointing them out to me so clearly. (One has to wonder where you were when the original thread was being posted? I'm just standing on some shoulders here)

Can I help you with anything else?

prototype00

[prototype00]

The ultimate question here is this: since a shuriken is treated as ammunition for purposes of crafting and enchanting (at the very least), can you even add the Morphic quality to it? I don't believe that ammunition can have that quality, but can't find evidence anywhere. If your DM says yes, and that it works as you say, then it sounds like a really cheap way of getting a couple of amazing Kukris for a TWF rogue based around daggers. Just make two of them.

On the other hand, since the base weapon is still a shuriken, and shurikens are treated as ammunition, that means that after the first hit you have the possibility that the enchantment will go away, regardless of the form that it has taken at this moment. So, that's another possible issue. If I were to build a shuriken, I would simply put as many defensive abilities as I could find, wield it in my off hand to gain the benefits, and never attack with it. But, that's just me.

It does qualify because Morphing specifies Melee or Thrown weapon. The issue it runs into is possible lack of characterization of type, which I had not considered. (Resolved if you give the TWF example any chachet)

Since the rules say that a crossbow bolt is also a "Light Improvised Melee Weapon", that would technically also be a valid target, if improvised melee weapons count as melee weapons for whatever purpose (including enchantment).

prototype00

[Deophaun]

You seem to have a lot of issues with the basic premise of the thread
The basic premise was that this was RAW.

It's not.

[prototype00]

The basic premise was that this was RAW.

It's not.

Then a couple of fellas over at Brilliantgameologists/minmaxboards are going to be quite put out. But I appreciate you telling me how you think it doesn't work. (Though I still am of the belief that the crossbow bolt remains an improvised melee weapon even when you're not using it in melee, personally, nothing in the rules indicates that it doesn't do they? But we don't always have to agree, do we, Deophaun?)

prototype00

[The_Jette]

It does qualify because Morphing specifies Melee or Thrown weapon. The issue it runs into is possible lack of characterization of type, which I had not considered. (Resolved if you give the TWF example any chachet)

Since the rules say that a crossbow bolt is also a "Light Improvised Melee Weapon", that would technically also be a valid target, if improvised melee weapons count as melee weapons for whatever purpose (including enchantment).

prototype00

The problem isn't that it specifies melee or thrown weapon. The problem is that it doesn't specify ammunition. Shurikens are enchanted as ammunition, not as a thrown weapon. So, it shouldn't qualify for the morphing quality on that basis. Anything can be used as an improvised melee weapon, including a longbow, a fallen tree, an arrow, or a shuriken. That doesn't mean that if you found a masterwork fallen log you could enchant it to a +1 morphic fallen log, then morph it into a fullblade. Improvised means that it's not that type (melee, ranged), but can be used in such a manner at a penalty. Just like you can't enchant a masterwork table leg as a melee weapon, you can't enchant a crossbow bolt as a melee weapon. It's ammunition.

[Deophaun]

Then a couple of fellas over at Brilliantgameologists are going to be quite put out.
No! Not Brilliantgameologists! Unlike every other forum, they are populated entirely by gods, not by fallible human beings! They cannot be wrong!

Here's a shocker: this isn't the first time that they've been incorrect, and it won't be the last.

(Though I still am of the belief that the crossbow bolt remains an improvised melee weapon even when you're not using it in melee, personally, nothing in the rules indicates that it doesn't do they? But we don't always have to agree, do we, Deophaun?)
Not at all. You are free to be wrong. I'm just going to make sure that anyone checking has the correct rules in place instead of going off of, shall we say, a highly questionable reading of the text.

Is that ok with you?

[JBPuffin]

Is the light weapon thing so that it doesn't get destroyed like normal ammunition? I'd definitely want some kind of protection for that...

Although if improvised weapons can be enchanted, I'm totally getting a WWE-style chair and enchanting the Nine Hells out of it...

[Deophaun]

Is the light weapon thing so that it doesn't get destroyed like normal ammunition? I'd definitely want some kind of protection for that...
That's actually built into them as a ranged weapon. The properties for the shuriken then add a condition for when they will break:

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.
As stated, normal ammunition breaks no matter how they're used in battle, while shuriken only break after being thrown.

[prototype00]

The problem isn't that it specifies melee or thrown weapon. The problem is that it doesn't specify ammunition. Shurikens are enchanted as ammunition, not as a thrown weapon. So, it shouldn't qualify for the morphing quality on that basis. Anything can be used as an improvised melee weapon, including a longbow, a fallen tree, an arrow, or a shuriken. That doesn't mean that if you found a masterwork fallen log you could enchant it to a +1 morphic fallen log, then morph it into a fullblade. Improvised means that it's not that type (melee, ranged), but can be used in such a manner at a penalty. Just like you can't enchant a masterwork table leg as a melee weapon, you can't enchant a crossbow bolt as a melee weapon. It's ammunition.

Fair enough.


No! Not Brilliantgameologists! Unlike every other forum, they are populated entirely by gods, not by fallible human beings! They cannot be wrong!

Here's a shocker: this isn't the first time that they've been incorrect, and it won't be the last.

Not at all. You are free to be wrong. I'm just going to make sure that anyone checking has the correct rules in place instead of going off of, shall we say, a highly questionable reading of the text.

Is that ok with you?

Why Deophaun, I didn't know you had such a high opinion of them. I'm sure they'll be tickled pink. I'll be sure to remember you to them should the situation arise.

But I'll let you argue your "correct rules" then, as its Friday eve, and I'm quite tired. Good day.

prototype00

[hamishspence]

Is the light weapon thing so that it doesn't get destroyed like normal ammunition? I'd definitely want some kind of protection for that...


The light weapon thing determines what happens if you use shuriken in one hand and something else in the other (or shuriken in both hands) - and how much of a Str bonus gets applied.

But they do get destroyed after being thrown:


Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

[The_Jette]

Is the light weapon thing so that it doesn't get destroyed like normal ammunition? I'd definitely want some kind of protection for that...

Although if improvised weapons can be enchanted, I'm totally getting a WWE-style chair and enchanting the Nine Hells out of it...

This is probably the best concept I've heard of so far... I have the sudden desire to build a "war chair" as an exotic weapon, and a Strength based half-orc Monk that goes around with no shirt (and constantly ripping off any shirt that he's forced to wear as soon as combat starts) whose sole weapon is the war chair. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Given that they are "ammunition for the purposes of crafting special versions of them" - I would presume that this applies to what enchantments they can take.

So - since morphing is "melee and thrown weapons only" - it can't be given to ammunition in general - it can only be given to thrown weapons that aren't ammo - darts, hammers, javelins, etc.

[DarkSoul]

Why the hell is everyone hung up on whether it's possible or not? The very first sentence of the very first post says the DM was nuts to do allow this, but did anyway. It's not a rules discussion thread at all beyond "what's the best way to blow 200k gold enchanting a single shuriken?".

Talk about missing the point... :smallannoyed:

[Vizzerdrix]

Sizing and animated. Now fly/surf on you shriken. Surf Ninja!



Can ammo have splitting? Add splitting for more extreme surfing action!

[Crake]

Spellblade - (This goes on my Gauntlet) - Mordenkainen's Disjunction (6000gp)

Worth noting that spellblade only works on targetted spells, not aoe, so you can't have a spellblade against disjunction.

[PrismCat21]

Why the hell is everyone hung up on whether it's possible or not? The very first sentence of the very first post says the DM was nuts to do allow this, but did anyway. It's not a rules discussion thread at all beyond "what's the best way to blow 200k gold enchanting a single shuriken?".

Talk about missing the point... :smallannoyed:

Let's re-read that very first sentence of the very first post again shall we?


So in a fit of madness/ignorance, your DM lets you use completely RAW rules for making the +10 Shuriken of most powerful weapon in the game.

Huh... I suppose the part where they mentioned "completely RAW rules", would be why we're so hung up on whether it's possible or not.

...maybe 'completely RAW rules' means something different to you...

And the section directly underneath the very first sentence specified 4k gp. Not 200k...

Do you get my point? Or was it missed?

[DarkSoul]

Huh... I suppose the part where they mentioned "completely RAW rules", would be why we're so hung up on whether it's possible or not.

...maybe 'completely RAW rules' means something different to you...

And the section directly underneath the very first sentence specified 4k gp. Not 200k...

Do you get my point? Or was it missed?Your point was noted and then disregarded completely in favor of the part where, again from the first sentence, "...the DM lets you..."

[prototype00]

Let's re-read that very first sentence of the very first post again shall we?



Huh... I suppose the part where they mentioned "completely RAW rules", would be why we're so hung up on whether it's possible or not.

...maybe 'completely RAW rules' means something different to you...

And the section directly underneath the very first sentence specified 4k gp. Not 200k...

Do you get my point? Or was it missed?

Sure, I was just tired of getting dogpiled, thats all.

Note: Just for the record, I don't agree with what you and Dauphin were saying RAW was. It seemed to me more of a DM's interpretation of the rules written down.

For me, as a Thrown Weapon (the only actual requirement for the Morphing Enchantment), a Shuriken is obviously enchantable in that manner. Then when it is wielded in a Two Weapon fashion, it is also treated as a Light Weapon. At that point, in my estimation, the RAW is that the Morphing enchantment can be activated, turning the item into any other light weapon.

But you can argue that that too is an interpretation, I suppose.

prototype00

[Almarck]

Your point was noted and then disregarded completely in favor of the part where, again from the first sentence, "...the DM lets you..."



Incoreect. The DM allowing it is the impetus, but in order for it to be permissible it has to follow RAW. The logic is pretty straight forward. Both conditions must be met to be successful or else you fail.

[jdizzlean]

so why not have returning on them, unless you like throwing 5k gold away every attack..

[Gruftzwerg]

To clear some misunderstanding a few here have up.

"Count as" is not the same as "to be/are". Especially if "count as" comes tied to a condition. Than it only applies to that condition and nothing else.

Further the rule is "Specific Trumps General", not "Specific becomes General". Which means that the rule only changes for special conditions and is otherwise untouched/unchanged.

Example Half-Elf
- you count as a human (for spells & effects)
- you count as an elf (for spells & effects)
- but you are a half-elf and thus gain Half-Elf traits (traits are a category on its own and not effects or spells).
- you don't gain (full access to) human or elf trait packs (only those that Half-Elfs share with them).

and thus: No, Shuriken are not light weapons. They just count as light for the purpose of TWF.

[prototype00]

To clear some misunderstanding a few here have up.

"Count as" is not the same as "to be/are". Especially if "count as" comes tied to a condition. Than it only applies to that condition and nothing else.

Further the rule is "Specific Trumps General", not "Specific becomes General". Which means that the rule only changes for special conditions and is otherwise untouched/unchanged.

Example Half-Elf
- you count as a human (for spells & effects)
- you count as an elf (for spells & effects)
- but you are a half-elf and thus gain Half-Elf traits (traits are a category on its own and not effects or spells).
- you don't gain (full access to) human or elf trait packs (only those that Half-Elfs share with them).

and thus, no Shuriken are not light weapons. They just count as light for the purpose of TWF.

Can you quote me the page that this rule you have said comes from? Which book is it in?

prototype00

[Gruftzwerg]

Can you quote me the page that this rule you have said comes from? Which book is it in?

prototype00

I just explained what "Specific Trumps General" means. It doesn't mean "Specific becomes General".

IMHO we all know "Specific Trumps General" (since you pointed it out yourself first, so why should I dig it up for you?^^). So unless you can point me out where there rule "Specific becomes General" stands, you are just under a false impression. sry.

PS: I hope I don't sound mean. No ill intentions here ;)

edit: to clarify:
if your interpretation would be right and "Specific would become General", a Half-Elf could presist that he is a full human (since he counts as human) and demand his bonus feat and anything else humans and elfs would/could get. sry, doesn't work that way.

[prototype00]

I just explained what "Specific Trumps General" means. It doesn't mean "Specific becomes General".

IMHO we all know "Specific Trumps General" (since you pointed it out yourself first, so why should I dig it up for you?^^). So unless you can point me out where there rule "Specific becomes General" stands, you are just under a false impression. sry.

PS: I hope I don't sound mean. No ill intentions here ;)

I'm just saying that if you can't point to a page where your rule comes from, its a house rule.

If they say something is "treated" like a Light Weapon, and don't specify the limits, then to the full extent, even with regards to magic and feats, it will be treated like a light weapon under those circumstance. That is RAW, or at least as far as I understood it, and no one has proposed anything to change my mind, just repeated the same thing louder and slower as if treating me like I'm a foreigner will make them correct. :smallbiggrin:

prototype00

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm just saying that if you can't point to a page where your rule comes from, its a house rule.

If they say something is "treated" like a Light Weapon, and don't specify the limits, then to the full extent, even with regards to magic and feats, it will be treated like a light weapon under those circumstance. That is RAW, or at least as far as I understood it, and no one has proposed anything to change my mind, just repeated the same thing louder and slower as if treating me like I'm a foreigner will make them correct. :smallbiggrin:

prototype00

it counts as light weapon for the purpose of TWF (TWF is the limitation here). Everywhere else the general rule is in full effect.

read my edit in the last with the Half-Elf. Half-Elf limitation to count as human/elf are spells & effects.

And again, you started to talk about "specific trumps general". I just pointed out your misinterpretation. How about you backing up your argument, that you treat it like "specific becomes general", where does that rule stay?

edit to TWF: and it only aplies to the TWF rules. Not any other rules while TWF! Two different things.

[prototype00]

it counts as light weapon for the purpose of TWF (TWF is the limitation here). Everywhere else the general rule is in full effect.

read my edit in the last with the Half-Elf. Half-Elf limitation to count as human/elf are spells & effects.

And again, you started to talk about "specific trumps general". I just pointed out your misinterpretation. How about you backing up your argument, that you treat it like "specific becomes general", where does that rule stay?

It does not say anywhere in the rules that it is only for the purposes of TWF, here is the quotation if you are curious:


The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Where does it lay out the limitation that you mentioned?

prototype00

[Gruftzwerg]

The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

each hand = not a single hand = 2 hands for most humanoids, some more = TWF or to some extend Multi Weapon Fighting.

I hope I could solve the puzzle =)

edit:
"Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner"
is also a indication that it is only for this conditions.

[prototype00]

each hand = not a single hand = 2 hands for most humanoids, some more = TWF or to some extend Multi Weapon Fighting.

I am confused as to how this is relevant.


I hope I could solve the puzzle =)

"Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner"
is also a indication that it is only for this conditions.

No... sorry, that does not read that way to me at all. For me, that specifically says when used in TWF, a shuriken is treated as a Light weapon, end of story.

Unfortunately you have not convinced me, not that you need to, I'm just aware that we see the same wording in two different ways.

[Gruftzwerg]

I am confused as to how this is relevant.



No... sorry, unfortunately you have not convinced me, not that you need to, I'm just aware that we see the same wording in two different ways.

I try explain what the text says in my own word in the hope to clear it up:

Apply the rules when you have a throwing weapon in each hand (and thus fall under either the TWF or MWF rules). They count as light weapons when used in this manner (in this manner reffers to have/throw a throwing weapon in each hand).

It only applies to TWF/MWF (penalties) and nothing else.
This rule need to be there so you have penalties to apply to, when you use Shuriken + TWF. You need to know if they count as light or not for TWF since normal range weapons are not meant to TWF (with some exception like thrown weapons and hand-crossbow which call this exception in their rule text out IIRC).

It's just a bonus to "count as light weapon to lessen TWF penalties", not more, not less.

[prototype00]

I try explain what the text says in my own word in the hope to clear it up:

Apply the rules when you have a trowing weapon in each hand (and thus fall under either the TWF or MWF rules). They count as light weapons when used in this manner (in this manner reffers to have/throw a throwing weapon in each hand).

It only applies to TWF/MWF (penalties) and nothing else.
This rule need to be there so you have penalties to apply to, when you use Shuriken + TWF. You need to know if they count as light or not for TWF since normal range weapons are not meant to TWF (with some exception like thrown weapons and hand-crossbow which call this exception in their rule text out IIRC).

It's just a bonus to "count as light weapon to lessen TWF penalties", not more, not less.

I heard you the first time, Gruftzwerg. :smallbiggrin:

I just don't agree with your reading.

prototype00

[Gruftzwerg]

I heard you the first time, Gruftzwerg. :smallbiggrin:

I just don't agree with your reading.

prototype00

Imho it's obvious how it works. See the limitation (each hand with a weapon = either TWF or MWF) and apply the "Specific Trumps General" rule.

And it's not "Specific becomes General". I hope I could at least make this difference clear. If not, I would beg you to research "Specific Trumps General" yourself to see that it is not meant to become general rules. As said, otherwise the Half-Elf will persist on his "count as human" statues and try to claim a bonus feat.

[Zombulian]

Sizing and animated. Now fly/surf on you shriken. Surf Ninja!



Can ammo have splitting? Add splitting for more extreme surfing action!

Reminds me of that scene from Naruto... but in this version I like to imagine the Shuriken wielder to be sitting on top of the shuriken spinning at extreme speeds :smallbiggrin:

[Eric Scott]

I'm going to disregard whether or not it is RAW to put morphing on a shuriken, and just say that I would envision that it would just turn it into a tiny if not smaller light weapon. Meaning it wouldn't be very useful.

[prototype00]

I'm going to disregard whether or not it is RAW to put morphing on a shuriken, and just say that I would envision that it would just turn it into a tiny if not smaller light weapon. Meaning it wouldn't be very useful.

Morphing does not allow for changes in size. If it was a Shuriken sized for a medium creature before, it will (if you believe it works) become a medium Light weapon.

Besides, sizing is cheap.

[Eric Scott]

Morphing does not allow for changes in size. If it was a Shuriken sized for a medium creature before, it will (if you believe it works) become a medium Light weapon.

Besides, sizing is cheap.

True enough, though I'm just going based on the physical size of the weapon, considering it is "ammunition" it is physically smaller than normal medium weapons hence why I would think it'd become a smaller weapon via morphing. Though that is just my thoughts about it.

[Godskook]

it's "Light Improvised" classification

It doesn't have a "light improvised" classification. The rules you are quoting only classify it as such under a specific circumstance that "enchanting this weapon" doesn't qualify you for.