Best wild shape form level 6 druid pathfinder

[Zangief1983]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the right forum to be posting this pathfinder question but here goes. I have a level 6 druid and I'm wondering which form deals the most damage at this level? Thanks for your help.

[Geddy2112]

PF questions are best for the 3.X/3.5/pathfinder subforum. I am sure an admin will come and move it in a little bit.

To answer your question, a dire tiger is mechanically your best bet. Pounce, 3 attacks, all have grab, and the ability to rake people. Utterly brutal amount of damage.

For general Pathfinder druid advice, here is a handy handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WLR6brLr0EA3LbQ6UihsliPiyPYSlLjrNbUShPty4bo/edit), specifically, the wild shape combat build.

[Zangief1983]

What do you think about the octopus? I see rake can't be used at level 6 for the dire tiger. That rake comes into play at level 8.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Transporter room six, we seem to be in the wrong location. On my mark, please transmit to these coordinates. Energize.

[Geddy2112]

Forgot rake is not available till level 8 for beast shape.

Giant Octopus is a great form, but it is an aquatic creature and most combats in the game are not in the water, making the tiger a superior form. If you ever are in the water, or you need to get a swim speed(jet) then the octopus is your go to choice.

[Zangief1983]

Forgot rake is not available till level 8 for beast shape.

Giant Octopus is a great form, but it is an aquatic creature and most combats in the game are not in the water, making the tiger a superior form. If you ever are in the water, or you need to get a swim speed(jet) then the octopus is your go to choice.

The giant octopus has a land speed and can fight on land without any issues. Which form is better now?

[prototype00]

If you happen to be a Saurian Shaman, isn't the best Wildshape at this level the Allosaurus?

prototype00

[Geddy2112]

The giant octopus has a land speed and can fight on land without any issues. Which form is better now?

Still the tiger. Okay, yes, an octopus can move around on land, but it is much slower. The big problem here is that an octopus is an aquatic creature, and all aquatic creatures cannot breathe air unless they have magical aid or the amphibious trait, which the octopus does not. You can hold your breath for 2 rounds=con score and each round you take a standard or full round action, it reduces the duration by 1 round. So in combat you effectively hold your breath equal to con score. After that it is a DC10 con check(not a fort save mind you) each round to continue, with the DC increasing by 1 for each previous save. Fail a save and you go to 0hp unconscious, then -1 and dying in the next round, then dead the round after that.

So assuming you wild shape at the beginning of combat, and most combats lasting <10 rounds and assuming a con score of 10, you could be an octopus the entire fight. However, the tiger is much faster on land, has pounce(full round charge), grab, and does more damage with its attacks. With the tiger, you can just be a tiger in times you expect combat and not waste a turn wild shaping, where the octopus cannot. The tiger also has scent, which is very useful.

[Zangief1983]

Still the tiger. Okay, yes, an octopus can move around on land, but it is much slower. The big problem here is that an octopus is an aquatic creature, and all aquatic creatures cannot breathe air unless they have magical aid or the amphibious trait, which the octopus does not. You can hold your breath for 2 rounds=con score and each round you take a standard or full round action, it reduces the duration by 1 round. So in combat you effectively hold your breath equal to con score. After that it is a DC10 con check(not a fort save mind you) each round to continue, with the DC increasing by 1 for each previous save. Fail a save and you go to 0hp unconscious, then -1 and dying in the next round, then dead the round after that.

So assuming you wild shape at the beginning of combat, and most combats lasting <10 rounds and assuming a con score of 10, you could be an octopus the entire fight. However, the tiger is much faster on land, has pounce(full round charge), grab, and does more damage with its attacks. With the tiger, you can just be a tiger in times you expect combat and not waste a turn wild shaping, where the octopus cannot. The tiger also has scent, which is very useful.

True however u do not take on the aquatic subtype when wild shaping you can breathe on land indefinitely by rule. Working out the math the damage being dealt by the tiger full attack and octopus full attack work out to virtually the same DPR. Yes the speed is an issue for the octopus however that's why it compensates for that with a 20ft reach.

[TheFamilarRaven]

True however u do not take on the aquatic subtype when wild shaping you can breathe on land indefinitely by rule. Working out the math the damage being dealt by the tiger full attack and octopus full attack work out to virtually the same DPR. Yes the speed is an issue for the octopus however that's why it compensates for that with a 20ft reach.

Emphasis mine.

I mean. I'm curious as to where you get this impression. RAW may not say explicitly you gain any subtype. It doesn't even say your creature type changes. And by your reading then a druid that transforms into a shark, or an octopus can't breathe underwater. Since being able to breathe underwater is a trait associated the [Aquatic] subtype, not just being a creature that makes water its home.

What I mean to say RAW may not be 100% clear. And you can argue all day. But anyone with any reason is going to say. "A druid that Wild Shapes into a shark/octupus/pet gold fish/whatever can breathe underwater, and can't breathe on land unless they're amphibious."

So you can play the way you want. But I believe it's clear the RAI is for druids to gain all of the natural and logical pros and cons of an animal form when Wild Shaping.

[Zangief1983]

Emphasis mine.

I mean. I'm curious as to where you get this impression. RAW may not say explicitly you gain any subtype. It doesn't even say your creature type changes. And by your reading then a druid that transforms into a shark, or an octopus can't breathe underwater. Since being able to breathe underwater is a trait associated the [Aquatic] subtype, not just being a creature that makes water its home.

What I mean to say RAW may not be 100% clear. And you can argue all day. But anyone with any reason is going to say. "A druid that Wild Shapes into a shark/octupus/pet gold fish/whatever can breathe underwater, and can't breathe on land unless they're amphibious."

So you can play the way you want. But I believe it's clear the RAI is for druids to gain all of the natural and logical pros and cons of an animal form when Wild Shaping.

No not arguing at all, I wish it were that way to (the way you have suggested). You can not breathe underwater even in shark form indefinitely you can however swim as stated in the beast shape description. You are still a human, you cannot cast Animal Growth on a druid because he is not in fact an animal even in wild shape form. This can all be found in the polymorph rules. The druid merely takes up a form that closely resembles an animal hence the +20 to disguise. A spell of true seeing would reveal the druid for what he is. I believe you don't automatically gain those racial traits you have said, you only gain what is written in the beast shape description (ie low-light vision etc). Perhaps we could have a third person chime in on this.

[Geddy2112]

True however u do not take on the aquatic subtype when wild shaping you can breathe on land indefinitely by rule. Working out the math the damage being dealt by the tiger full attack and octopus full attack work out to virtually the same DPR. Yes the speed is an issue for the octopus however that's why it compensates for that with a 20ft reach.

Incorrect. From the spell, baleful polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/baleful-polymorph/)"As beast shape III...If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water."

There is a RAW example that aquatic creatures not in water cannot breathe, and if polymorphed into an aquatic creature not in water(or amphibious) it is fatal.

And from the polymorph subschool"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."

Again, form such as having lungs and the ability to breathe air is lost when you turn into an animal without that form. It is also stated in polymorph magic that you gain the ability to breathe water or underground if you have a swim or burrow speed respectively.

Really, it should be obvious that you cannot be an aquatic creature indefinitely on land. I highly doubt there is a GM out there that would allow this.

That aside, from a biological standpoint, an an octopus can hold water in its bell, keeping its gills wet and allowing it to reverse scuba around for a little bit. If you were spamming create water and periodically soaking/refilling your bell, then it could work.

[Zangief1983]

Incorrect. From the spell, baleful polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/baleful-polymorph/)"As beast shape III...If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water."

There is a RAW example that aquatic creatures not in water cannot breathe, and if polymorphed into an aquatic creature not in water(or amphibious) it is fatal.

And from the polymorph subschool"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."

Again, form such as having lungs and the ability to breathe air is lost when you turn into an animal without that form. It is also stated in polymorph magic that you gain the ability to breathe water or underground if you have a swim or burrow speed respectively.

Really, it should be obvious that you cannot be an aquatic creature indefinitely on land. I highly doubt there is a GM out there that would allow this.

That aside, from a biological standpoint, an an octopus can hold water in its bell, keeping its gills wet and allowing it to reverse scuba around for a little bit. If you were spamming create water and periodically soaking/refilling your bell, then it could work.

We are not talking about Baleful polymorph. One can simply go on the paizo forums to know that you can take the octopus form and go on land indefinitely because you are still a human and can breathe air. Proof of this "Human still" I speak of is that you cannot cast animal growth on yourself because you are not an animal. I think at the end of the day its the GM's call, I respect your view for sure and could see it go either way. Thanks for your replies for sure, I do appreciate it as it opened my eyes to a different view.

[CozJa]

No not arguing at all, I wish it were that way to (the way you have suggested). You can not breathe underwater even in shark form indefinitely you can however swim as stated in the beast shape description. You are still a human, you cannot cast Animal Growth on a druid because he is not in fact an animal even in wild shape form. This can all be found in the polymorph rules. The druid merely takes up a form that closely resembles an animal hence the +20 to disguise. A spell of true seeing would reveal the druid for what he is. I believe you don't automatically gain those racial traits you have said, you only gain what is written in the beast shape description (ie low-light vision etc). Perhaps we could have a third person chime in on this.

Well, to be honest the polymorph subschool specify that, if you get a swim speed you can breathe while swimming http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation therefore wild shaping into a shark would let you breath underwater.

[Zangief1983]

Well, to be honest the polymorph subschool specify that, if you get a swim speed you can breathe while swimming http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation therefore wild shaping into a shark would let you breath underwater.

Ya that's true I was going to edit that. Breathing underwater my GM has ruled is ok as well as on land.