Need Help Calculating Encounter CR

[Palanan]

I’m having real trouble wrapping my head around the rules for encounter design (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/#Table-Encounter-Design), especially going from APL to CR to XP budget.

There are currently three PCs, each at second level, and for this encounter they’ll have the equivalent of a second-level NPC to back them up. I’d like the encounter to be tough-ish, but combats with this group are very all-or-nothing. I’m not sure what APL this should be—4, 5, 6?

The opponents will be an assortment of low-level thugs, but I’m not sure how many I should include for a challenging fight, or how many levels between them. Can someone help break this down for me?

[Quertus]

Easy answer: mock out the fight.

The CR system.... Well, different people will tell you different things, but I think it is a poor measure of challenge. What really matters is how the individual characters will interact with the specific creatures - both in terms of ability and tactics.

If you can st least roughly emulate the party composition and tactics, try setting up the encounter and running your mock PCs through a mock battle. This will tell you fat more than the CR system will.

But, uh, it's probably best to try this out on a few easier encounters first, to get a feel for the accuracy of your results.

[the_david]

The APL of your group should be about 1, at most they could handle a CR of 4.

For a group like yours (one that is not the assumed party of 4) it's easier to use an XP target than a CR. So for a normal party of 4 second level characters a CR of 5 is the most they could handle. Your party could handle about 75% of that. That's 1200 xp, or a CR of 4.

It's easier to look at XP like it's a budget, at least for Pathfinder.

[Bucky]

3 PCs (CR 2 each) plus 3 NPCs (also CR 2) is a CR ~7 encounter. IIRC, APL is CR-4, so effective APL for the full group should be 3.

You want an encounter challenging but not an existential threat. That means you should give the PC group a 2 CR advantage; throw a CR5 squad at them. They could probably handle a CR6, but it's better to gauge the party's actual performance first.

Disregard all that, there's only one NPC. The NPC basically brings the party up to normal party-of-4 strength so balance accordingly.

[Geddy2112]

Read this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit)

The CR scale is far from perfect, but it is a decent place to start. You have 3 party members, all level 2, and an NPC, also level 2. So you are generally looking at a CR2 fight. However, a single CR2 enemy gets one turn vs the party's four turns, and action economy is really what makes or breaks the fight. 4 CR 1/2 mooks are much harder than one single CR2 enemy. The encounter design section does cover this in that more enemies is a CR boost. For a minimum CR2 encounter by exp, you want 3 1st level PC's as thugs(fighters or rogues take your pick). A CR equal encounter should drain 1/4th of the party's resources(HP, magic, x/day abilities) and is not a hard fight.

For a hard fight, CR6, one CR6 monster or NPC might be far too powerful, and a bunch of 1st level NPC warriors can throw a lot of dice, so you might want to mix it up. 1-2 1st level NPC's, maybe a second level, then some warriors. Action economy is the biggest thing here.

If you wanted it to be tough but not brutal, a CR4-5 is best. I would probably do the following:
1 2nd level character(400exp)
1 1st level character(200 exp)
4 1st level NPC warriors (530 exp)

You have a gang of mooks, a leader, and a special mook. Tough but not impossible.

[Florian]

Hm, remember why I suggested:
- Sorc1/Bard 1
- Mesmer 1
- 2x Warrior 1
- 2x Dog

As for the hit and miss: You have a core group of melees with a heavy focus on TWF. Playing to their strength means having them attacked, so they don´t have to move more than 5ft, flank and bring their number of attacks to bear. Forcing them to attack will make the encounter more difficult. Mix of both seems best: have the dogs and one handler come in first, let them heal up and attack the group around the leader second.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Quertus
If you can st least roughly emulate the party composition and tactics, try setting up the encounter and running your mock PCs through a mock battle. This will tell you fat more than the CR system will.

Something to keep in mind, but sadly not enough time for this now.


Originally Posted by Geddy2112
If you wanted it to be tough but not brutal, a CR4-5 is best. I would probably do the following:
1 2nd level character(400exp)
1 1st level character(200 exp)
4 1st level NPC warriors (530 exp)

You have a gang of mooks, a leader, and a special mook. Tough but not impossible.

This looks like a good baseline to work from, thanks. Very helpful to get some solid numbers.


Originally Posted by Florian
As for the hit and miss: You have a core group of melees with a heavy focus on TWF. Playing to their strength means having them attacked, so they don´t have to move more than 5ft, flank and bring their number of attacks to bear. Forcing them to attack will make the encounter more difficult. Mix of both seems best: have the dogs and one handler come in first, let them heal up and attack the group around the leader second.

And some helpful comments on tactics, thanks. I do like the mesmerist idea.

[Florian]

And some helpful comments on tactics, thanks. I do like the mesmerist idea.

Something you should _not_ do is ask about NPC builds on a dedicated system mastery board. Custom builds have the habit to create heavy synergies, one of the reasons the CR system gets out of whack fast.

Rather, use the NPC Codex, Villans Codex and Monster Codex to grab and possibly adjust enemies, fewer surprises this way.

Mooks:
- (2x) Dog (Bestiary 1)
- Recruit (NPC Codex), swap WepFoc with Combat Reflexes, axe and shield with Glaive.
- Recruit (NPC Codex), add Net, use non-proficient (touch attack an non-proficiency cancel out)

Mesmerist:
- Lem, Iconic Bard (NPC Codex), use stats, swap class for Mesmerist, swap feat to Intimidating Glance, spells known to Hideous Laughter, Mental Block. Replace Short Sword with Sword Cane.

Bard/Sorc:
- Lem, Iconic Bard (NPC Codex), use stats, add level of Sorcerer w. Fey Bloodline. Spells known: Hypnotism, Color Spray.

So, that´ s a set of pretty mediocre villains, but a nasty tactical setup.
Now, let´s have a little fun with the Mesmerist: You can implant up to 5 tricks for this encounter, so Levitation Buffer at one dog, Shadow Splitter on the other. Mesmeric Mirror on the Mesmerist, Compel Alacrity on the Bard and one Recruit. Mental Block is a very nasty surprise, shutting down all feats and class features for one round if it lands. That should shock them, especially the Rogue.

Edit: I´d advise you to leave the Bard in. You have the feeling the encounter is too easy for the CR, start singing to keep it a challenge.